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GREG: He would go on to be quite powerful, I'd imagine. Look at what he does to Sally, and she's a forensic psychologist. Mackenzie on the other hand has him pegged from day one. I love the Mackenzie character, because he was right all along - from the opening moment in the interrogation room when he lights his cigarette, with the lighter with the brotherhood symbol on it. Mackenzie is someway connected and quite rightly suspects Alex. Did you notice that, when he lights the cigarette in his first scene?

I didn't notice it in that first scene, but later on when we see it again.

Okay, last question. Is there anything that you, whether that's just "Greg" or the guy who made Like Minds - is there anything you want the people of the Like Minds community to know, or a question you'd like to pose to them?

GREG: Spread the word about the film.

Because it is a puzzler, I would like to know whether they got it or not, whether they enjoyed the ride they went on, whether they understood it one way, or another, because as I have said, I'm not saying one interpretation is right or one is wrong. The question is… Did they connect with the piece? Did the story take them on a meaningful journey?

I would have thought more people would have connected with the film in its psychological, puzzling kind of way and would want to delve into the deeper nooks and crannies of this story. Unfortunately with its limited release in 2006, not all understood the film.

They do now.

GREG: Well yeah, but on its release they didn't, and many critics didn't get it. I'll give you an example. When we first released the film, we released at Melbourne Film Festival to a packed house. It was fantastic, it was sold out. And it was a big cinema, one of the big two tier old fashioned cinemas. Beautiful. And that was very exciting. The audience was captivated. I remember this one scene where everything went dead quiet, and could have heard a pin drop. That night we got the first review and it was a guy in the cinema, he gave it a five stars - best thing he'd seen in a long time, etc. He was in on the story like you are, right? I sent that off to my colleagues in England, and they were excited. We get up in the morning and we got a three star review from a big newspaper guy who didn't get it. He didn't trash it - three stars out of five, still. But he didn't get it either, he didn't understand or care about the subtext, and one of his main issues with the film was that an Australian film from an Australian filmmaker was set in England. Not taking into account that it was the only way we could finance the film.

I knew some of it was filmed in Australia, but I didn't know how much.

GREG: A lot of it. The scenes where Toni Collette gets out of the car and her papers fly everywhere while she's going into her house. That was an Adelaide terrace, which is on the main road in Adelaide. We had to frame it a very particular way to avoid trees/road etc. And this was shot in the middle of summer, it was about 42 degrees outside and Toni’s got that jacket on. So we had a big wind machine that we borrowed from the people who did the wind FX on Mad Max and we were blowing all this air saying, "Look cold, look cold!" But it was bloody hot. Also the scene in the underground car park where she talks to the Headmaster. It was so hot down there, and they're trying to look cold.

Most of the exteriors were shot in England, we spent about four weeks based in Leeds shooting in surrounding suburbs and townships like Giggleswick.

Great location.

GREG: It was really cool, it's a school with a really amazing church. I loved the English locations; they were amazing and steeped in history. However because it was a co-production between Australia and England, I had to shoot a certain percentage in Australia. So it was a tricky balance. I think we got away with it.

I mean, I live in Leeds and the whole time I was like, oh yeah! That's Leeds.

GREG: Nigel's house. Yes, that's in Leeds. But then the backyard, that's in Adelaide in the middle of summer and it's meant to be winter, so we had to go around finding all these dead trees for when they're putting the guts into the fire. And it's hot, right? It's a boiling hot night in Adelaide, the cicadas are going off.

Another instance is when Toni pulls up in the car to Nigel’s House - the wide shot of the car is in Leeds, but all the action in the car is shot in the suburbs of Adelaide. We had hoses running down the windows to make it look like it was raining. And when she's walking down the path and I'm travelling behind her head - that's a double in Leeds.

Really?

GREG: Yeah, just that shot. The rest of the scene was Toni, but in Australia. I knew I wanted to have a shot of Sally walking down the driveway of Nigel’s house in Leeds, but Toni never went to England. We couldn't make it work with her busy schedule. However with the psychology of this particular shot, I knew we could get away with not showing her face. So even if it had been Toni, I would have been following behind her anyway.

You've got so many minutes you're going to shoot in a day. You've got to get the coverage, you've got to make sure your actors are in the right headspace and everyone is comfortable.

When people say I'm a writer – I think, really I'm really a conduit to the story, I rely on my team to help me bring my vision of the story to the screen. Without them there wouldn’t be a film.

You're the vehicle for it.

GREG: Yeah, the story is bigger than me. I might be the originator, but it came from all sorts of places, like my documentary idea. It was an ever evolving process.

Even the dialogue can evolve. As an example, I was doing a read through with Eddie and Toni during pre production. Sometimes, Eddie would politely say he wouldn't use this word because it sounds too Australian. How about this word? It means the same thing, but better slang for the region. Well I'm happy with that, it sounded natural. It was a great process and helped Eddie take ownership of the lines to help mould the character of Alex. And helped me in the writing process.

There are also times that the words don’t change but the way the actors mould them make a huge difference. I remember Toni had a monologue, this thirty second piece. As she read it, I'm so taken aback by her incredible performance that I didn't add changes or make notes. It just sounded so different to what I'd written, I asked her what she changed and Toni looked at me almost perplexed, and said she'd changed nothing. It was the way she took my words and expressed them in a way far beyond anything I could have imagined.

It was a wonderful journey writing Like Minds and being given the opportunity to bring it to the screen. I thank you all for watching my film and I am thrilled that 20 years on the conversation continues! - Greg J. Read.

GREG: It's a very simple little scene. It's where they're in class together, and the teacher Fergus turns to the class, and he holds out his hand and he asks, “What is in my hand?” And Mills, confused by the question, says “Ah, air Sir?” and Fergus tells him he's wrong. Why does he say that?

Imagination?

GREG: Yes, Fergus goes on to say…

“The mind. gentlemen, is a powerful tool. Use it well and you can make the impossible a reality. Without imagination we have nothing.”

But it’s not only about imagination. To some people an open palm contains everything. The universe is there. Atoms and stardust from before the Earth was born, however to another there is nothing, just an empty hand. So it’s up to the individual as to how they view the world around them and how they interpret it.

How is Alex telling this story to Sally Rowe? It was another little hint about the story, about what you don't see, what you think you've seen. But you may be seeing something completely different. It's Escher's staircase. You look at it one way, and then you discover a totally different way to see it. It's the way you interpret the story, because as I have said, the story is a puzzle. It's all about what you see and what you don't see. You may see something at a physical level. You might see it as just a hand, flesh and bone. But it's not. That was important for me. But the distributors didn't understand it, and took it out to reduce run time. Like guys, you're missing the point! It was such a short little scene anyway and it was lovely. It was the only scene that was cut from the entire film.

Really?

GREG: Every other scene and every other shot is in the film. I didn't shoot anything additional. A lot of films shoot a lot of coverage, but I didn't. So for example, the shot I mentioned where Nigel is kidnapped? It’s one shot and an important one. That's all we did. I knew what I wanted to do, so I only shot it that way. At film school I graduated as an editor, so when I write, I write and direct for the edit. When it comes to the cut, I work very closely with the editor as they have fresh eyes and see things differently, so ideas are tried as scenes are built, sometimes they simply just work better in a different way and you go - "wow, I didn't think about it like that, it’s so much more on note." I loved that process. With Like Minds it was very much like an elastic band - every time we tried to stretch it out or really change it, we couldn't because it just kept pulling itself back to the script, which was great, but at the same time didn’t give us many options to do it differently if something was not to work as I had envisioned. Luckily it worked out.

I think that's a testament to the vision you had for the film, that it continuously snapped back into the original plot and image. It's a great film, you know I think it's great.

GREG: Thank you, I really appreciate that. I mean, there's a lot of beautiful films out there. There's hundreds, thousands of them. And this is great, to have someone appreciate your film after so many years. Thank you.

I got a call yesterday from the producer, saying he's been approached by a bunch of companies that are trying to acquire the rights again, because we had a 20 year lockout. However all the licenses are coming to an end.

You know what that calls for?

GREG: A re-release! And we'd need to convince the distributors it is worth it to them. Because one of the questions that got asked yesterday was,"Do you think there's an audience out there, for this film today?" and I said "well, ironically, (thanks to you and the “Like Minds” community) - I heard there possibly is." Maybe audiences will respond to it better now than when I first released the film. Audiences seem more accepting of films you have to think about. Like Christopher Nolan puzzlers. But back when we released the film, this sort of film was quite rare. And no one expected a puzzler coming out of Australia. So no one really knew what they were watching.

People do obsess about it. The community I've told you about, there's a few people who make these sort of long posts analysing like…every visible page in Nigel's Bible.

GREG: I actually have Nigel's Bible here somewhere.

Do you actually?

GREG: It's lying around here somewhere. I've also got a wooden plaque that was on Nigel's wall. Some little keepsakes. The Bible was about 20 pages. The rest is blank. We just couldn't create the whole thing, as much fun as we had making it. Because you're right, there is content in all those pages. But it was hard, we just didn't have the time. I would have gone to my art director, "Just keep going!", but not possible at the time. Maybe a job for the future.

Well, there certainly would be an audience, and it keeps getting bigger and bigger. I sent you that video a couple of weeks ago, where both Tom and Eddie were asked about Like Minds, and they were excited. So if you ever did a re-release, I bet they'd be there.

GREG: It's funny. My sister was in New York last year, and Eddie was doing the musical Cabaret. My sister went up to him at the barricade as he was signing autographs. She said "Hi, I'm Greg Read's sister," and Eddie brought her around the barricade, he turned to the audience and said "This is the sister of the guy who gave me my first film." When my sister told me I thought - wow, Eddie, nice of you to say that. I'm glad I put you in your first film, but if it wasn't me, someone else would have I’m sure. This takes me back to when I was casting for Alex. I was looking at younger actors around 18-20, he was closer to 22 at the time. But he was so youthful, he played a 17 year old Alex perfectly well.

Tom was surprised. I was the one who mentioned it to him actually, I met him in Holland. And he turns and he's sort of like, "I love Like Minds! It was one of the most important films in my career!" He was quite excited.

GREG: He did not say that!

He did! I have a video of it! He said it was one of the most important films of his career.

GREG: Thank you for sharing that with me.

With the ending scene where Alex leans over the boy's shoulder and he's like, "oh, do you like history?" Is it ridiculous for me to ask if Nigel and Alex perhaps weren't the first in this cycle of the Jack and the Pike, through history? Was Nigel ever on the other side of it? We've spoken about the fact that Nigel wouldn't have crashed out if Alex hadn't bullied him, things like that. But in that universe, is it something that's happened before?

GREG: Yes, in history.

There's a theory I read about, that Alex's dad and Nigel's dad were the same. And I do like that theory, as far away as it goes from the film. I do like the idea that their dads were equally as psychotic as kids.

GREG: And they probably were, whether they knew each other or not. But I do think the Jack and the Pike is something that goes on for eternity, which is said in the film for that reason. It's an incredible thing, and I don't think the Jack of Spades was necessarily designed to represent any of this, I came up with the idea to make the connection.

Where did that come from? Was it just because it looked cool, or symbolic?

GREG: No. You know how funny things happen to you in life? And they happen again and again? The Jack of Spades kept turning up. Like I'd split a deck of cards and it would be the Jack of Spades. It would be like that, I'd always get it and it's like, "Wwhat the hell is this card?" I hadn't really thought anything about it again until years later when writing Like Minds, I started researching it and interpreting its significance in terms of my story. I was thinking I could possibly build this card into Like Minds, but with no clear understanding on how this would work. It was just an idea tucked away, waiting for the right way to reveal itself. So when I wrote Like Minds, it just felt like a perfect fit.

I actually remember when I made the connection. I was reading a book about the Albigensian heresy to see if this historical event could be woven into Alex’s obsession with history. For no particular reason, in my head I suddenly saw the Jack of Spades, and I thought, maybe this kind of history is the link to the card that I was looking for. So I wrote the Jack of Spades into the story as part of the unifying element between the two boys. It was totally my interpretation as a story teller, I had never heard of this connection anywhere. With a bit of creative licence, I was able to weave it into my narrative from the very genesis of the story.

It certainly fits.

GREG: I just had to make sure it was truthful to the story, to make sure it felt real. I wanted to have people look at the Jack of Spades differently, is it just a playing card or is it something else? When they're playing a card game and they get the Jack of Spades and then - "Like Minds!"

It haunts me, and now it haunts them!

GREG: It did haunt me! I don't know why it did. It's almost like the Jack of Spades was what actually helped me anchor the themes, in a way. When I started writing the screenplay, the card appeared in Nigel’s hands in the first draft. It very quickly became the linchpin to the story, and when you delve into it and look at it, you can understand why. How it can play within the context of history. Do you like history? I'm sort of saying that to the audience. Even as the last lines of the film.

Well, he's no Nigel, but he'll do.

GREG: Yeah, he'll do. We'll see what I can do with him - probably nothing. It may go nowhere, it doesn't matter. Alex is a sociopathic character. You could say almost bordering on psychopathic, however I wouldn't necessarily go that far, I would say top level, high performing sociopath. He will manipulate and control. As I have said he'll be a really good CEO or merchant banker.

He'd be a great politician.

GREG: Great politician.

GREG: It's about nine months. They meet at the beginning of the year and the death is around October, but I was not basing it on any terms of a real school year. I wanted to create this kind of period of time that went from summer to winter back to summer, because I wanted the weather, including the cold snow fields to reflect the emotional state of the characters. It's almost symbolic, it's not true seasons so to speak. So when the seasons change, things change.

Remembering this is the retelling of a story from someone who's speaking to a forensic psychologist. So the puzzle is - what's true?

That's the question that's sort of stuck with everyone, really.

GREG: The weather is to give the essence of the psychological state, because what we are seeing is a retell. Hence the film’s winter in the middle of the calendar year is actually summer in the UK.

With the chronology, and this sort of theme of having winter sets when it SHOULD besummer, things like that. Do you think that contributes to the thematic idea that Alex is not telling the truth?

GREG: That's the puzzle. I was just mixing it up. In the Southern Hemisphere, they wouldn't think too much about that – our schools run on a calendar year, it's the middle of winter in July so you can see my thinking as an Australian. The only indication of location is by the characters’ accents which are from London, up to Leeds. But yes, as for a time period, it's over nine months – beginning of the year to close to the end.

As does the weather play on the characters, so do the rooms and the world they inhabit. So when you look at the rooms – if it's a big, wide shot, it’s more cold and bleak. Or if they're close up, like when they grabbed Nigel from his bed - when they chloroformed and kidnapped him. That shot just started on his face, just his sheets and his face, then the doorknob, it’s more intimate and just one shot.

Also, the world is split, it's a bit like two universes. You have the safe haven of the school, which is almost like the womb. The train is the umbilical cord that travels between the school and the outside brutal world where bad things happen.

That actually leads me to something I'm personally curious about through my own watching of the film, and my constant change in opinion every time I watch it. Alex seems to be an unreliable narrator, to whatever scale that might be. But as the person who created them, do you think Nigel is a complete sort of evil? Or is he a person we should feel some level of empathy for? Is he literally just a foil to Alex, or a person we should feel sorry for? Because I do.

GREG: Good question. But I would like to ask you what do you think?

I do feel sorry for him. I've had my own experience with bullies like Alex, picking on the quiet kids. And then the interactions we see between Nigel and his parents. I get the vibe there is a lot of pressure on him because of who his father is, and the reputation Nigel has got for great academic scores. I do feel a lot of empathy for him.

GREG: Well I'm glad that you do. I think you're right. A lot of people don't see that, because they want to see the evil person being evil, which is a trope that happens again and again in films, and I don't like it. I think, why can't the bad person be a victim too? That doesn't mean what they did was right, but why did they fire? Why did they trigger? Are they born evil? It's that old thing about psychopathic behaviour. Is it learned? Is it nature or nurture? I understand it can be nature, but really it's nurture just as much. For me, it's the nature/nurture side of Nigel I have a lot of empathy for. I think it's very sad that he started doing what he did. Even his taxidermy. His behaviours are things that are common in people who are haunted, taunted. But he's also not quite 100% right, in respect to his psychological state. I feel that he was bullied by Alex and it was, as you say, he unfortunately triggered on the train.

I love Alex, but I do have a soft spot for Nigel. When I watch the film, I have very specific ideas about him, why he's like that, which I want to bring to you.

GREG: I understand. I write characters so they can evolve, grow and learn. I allow the audience to have their own interpretation, I don't think I should be forcing it down their throats. I like the idea of writing characters that can be interpreted in different ways. So you and your friends having differing positions is exactly the debate that I want to see happen. It opens up conversation and makes the film a lot more interesting. And it also means that you start to see things in the character that relate to you and your own learnings, while other people will see it in a different way. That's what we all do. Tell me your interpretation and I'll see how close you are to what I had originally envisioned.

Well in my mind, he's.. like I said. He's quiet, you wouldn't want to sit with him. But he's not a problem. Just a bit weird. When he has that moment of snapping on the train and finally sort of deciding to give as good as he's getting, there's almost a kind of desperation there. Nigel's taunting, the way he approaches Alex in the chapel. It's almost like a kind of relief. These thoughts Nigel has always had in the back of his mind but never acted on. It's a sort of desperate invitation for Alex to be part of this world, a world he already thought Alex lived in because of the horrible things Alex had been doing to him - dragging him out of his bed and stuff. In Nigel I personally see someone who's abused in terms of his home life - emotional, whatever kind of bullying he's facing from his dad. Because clearly John Colbie is somebody who jumps to violence very quickly. He's very quick to grab that gun. But also the uncomfortable relationship with his mother. I know Nigel sees her as his Maraclea, this missing piece of him becoming who he was always meant to be. But it always strikes me as really uncomfortable.

GREG: There is no indication in the story that there is actually anything going on between

Helen and Nigel. So the thing is, you're completely right in everything you said. Nigel would be aware of his mother’s emotional state. She's searching for love and affection, but I don't think it's sexual. I think the photos that were taken were taken without her knowledge. Nigel set it up, that's how the images ended up over at the brotherhood. And with Nigel sitting in bed with his mother, it doesn't necessarily mean anything. However this is up for interpretation.

Of course, yeah.

GREG: But at the same time, even though I think all the emotional traits you're talking about are correct, I didn't want to push it as far as a physical relationship. I don't think they are in one. I think Helen is not getting any kind of emotional intimacy from her husband. Her son is showing affection to her in a way where he's at least communicating with her, and sitting with her and talking to her. Nigel may well be manipulating her, but I also think he wants her unconditional motherly love. She's the only person he truly feels connected to. It's that balancing point, isn't it? So when I wrote the script, I was cautious about saying that they're having a physical relationship as well as a psychological relationship. It's a cry for help from him, and from her, because of the father. Also it is important to reiterate that we are seeing this thread through Alex's retelling.

Now, you called Alex an unreliable narrator. He is reliable, just very, very selective as to what he says and when. Alex is putting up with the drudgery of school life only as a means to an end whereas Nigel is kind of numb to his very existence. It's almost like Nigel's living in a void, he needs to take control in order to help him understand his purpose. Deep down he wants to have connection to people, he craves it. I do feel it's something he feels he doesn't have. To Nigel his life is void of true love. He certainly doesn't get it from his dad. He's by himself, he's a very lonely character. And it's sad that people can be like that.

That's definitely how I feel. Especially the scene where he brings Alex to his little crawl space, the sort of childlike eagerness within him. That Alex is the first person he's brought down there. So many times throughout the film, I just wanted to hug him, I just felt really bad.

GREG: Well, that's right. And Nigel’s parents knew nothing about it. They wouldn't even have known he was missing. He built that place, it's his secret place, his own little capsule of escape. Because no one really understands him. But you understand him, which is really beautiful because that's what you've taken away with the film.

Well I'm glad I'm not being completely overly emotional when I watch it and I'm just thinking, oh I just want to tell him everything is going to be okay.

GREG: Empathy. As I have said, different people will interpret Like Minds in different ways. I think if you're an empathetic type of person, you'd read it that way. If you're not, you won't. Believe me, I've had people watch this film that didn't get it at all. I had some critics watch the film who totally missed the point. I think they didn’t want to dig any deeper than they had to. This is not an easy film.

I think of Nigel as a very complex character, and he decides he will live on in eternity through someone else, which is very sad.

Could you then say that in terms of Nigel's ending, that was always going to happen? As in, Nigel taking his own life.

GREG: It wouldn't have happened if he hadn't come into contact with someone like Alex. He would have continued on. I don't think he was suicidal in that regard, Nigel got caught up in this Gestalt relationship with Alex, he believed they had created something between them so much bigger than themselves. Suddenly he was excited. He was living this different kind of life, seeing through the eyes of the monster, which to him was exhilarating.

And he wasn't alone.

GREG: Yeah, he wasn't alone anymore. And when he realised that everything was going to be taken away from him, he didn't want it to stop. He wanted it to go on forever. And he thought he could have such an effect on this person that he could almost embody himself in them through this psychological bond. For Nigel, this became more important than life itself.

I'm meant to be asking professional questions that my friends have given me, instead I'm sitting here being maternal towards Nigel Colbie.

GREG: Yes, you are. But for the right reasons. That's fine, that's absolutely fine.

Let's start! The first question I have for you, and feel free to give as long or as short of an answer as you want. This is more about the reaction to the film, really. I've told you before about fan interpretation of the relationship between Nigel and Alex, some people theorising it as romantic, or as a sort of abusive relationship. As the creator, do you have any particular thoughts about those theories that people have come away with? Is there anything in your mind where you're wanting to correct them, or do you see why people believe that's the case, or THIS is the case?

GREG: Oh, that's a good question. It's an interesting thought. When I originally wrote the script, no one spoke about whether there was any kind of amorous relationship between the two boys. They didn't see any kind of connection other than a psychological relationship, as they didn't see the two performers together - they were just reading the script. So in the script itself, it doesn't talk about any kind of attraction other than "twinning" or Gestalt.

Right, yes.

GREG: But with that being said, there is a scene where Sally is researching on her computer, and she brings up a bunch of case studies on her screen. She has a book on her table which is about forensic psychology and Gestalt psychology. Some of these “true studies” are Gestalt cases where there has been a physical relationship between the two individuals. Even though I don’t directly point to Hitchcock’s film Rope in Like Minds, in Rope there is the subtext of a deep underlying bond between the two men, which in the day, 1957 was very controversial. So I understand why this connection is made, however it isn't always the case.

Another great film.

GREG: However, it's important to note, this kind of connection is not exclusively male/male. It can be female/male, female/female. It doesn't matter. So to me, it didn't necessarily have to be interpreted that way, but I knew this undertone would be explored once I created the dynamic between the actors. Once I found them, I wanted to let it become what it was going to be. Both Tom and Eddie understood what the script was about, understood that it was more about the psychology, and let the relationship grow out of that. I wanted it to be truthful to itself. I wanted them to find their characters individually, to find the essence of who they are and then see how they would interact together. So any of the moments in the film that you might feel as though they're being overly personal and intimate, well, maybe it’s more the characters trying to exert their control over each other.

The intensity is pretty strong, and Tom's character is very much, he's very penetrating, as a character. He burrows in and he won't stop, and he's kind of ruthless in a way.

Absolutely.

GREG: Eddie's character Alex, has unfortunately sparked something that was unstoppable. Would they have become volatile without one another? Would Nigel have ever been triggered if it wasn't for someone like Alex? That's the question isn’t it?

People have asked me about this strong connection between them. Of course - it's Gestalt. Does it go beyond that. Do they love each other? Well, love implies other things, and that's not really what's happening between them. It's much more about the psychological game. As humans, we share all sorts of feelings and emotions and connections, soulmates. Well, what is that? What is it, when you actually connect with somebody? So it was not my original intention, for them it was something much more insidious.

I completely understand that. It's the same in the Like Minds community, when this topic is spoken about - people have lots of different theories. If there was a sense of love, although that's not the right word because as you said, that implies a world of other things. But that sort of tension between them, some people believe that it was out of love, or an unrequited attraction, or obsession, or just feeling seen. It's a very prevalent topic.

GREG: I don't think that's a problem. We knew we were playing with fire in that respect. So when I saw the scenes being performed in front of me, I allowed that to evolve. I believe filmmaking is very much an evolution of ideas. You let it grow and build, as long as it doesn't go off the rails. So people wouldn't be terribly wrong. Do I personally see it that way? No, I don't see it that way. But that's just the way I interpret it. I still see that connection being an intense and burning connection, but it's just so far beyond anything I would know with a friend. It's just so intense. If I came across a Nigel in the real world, and he looked at me that way?

I'd be calling Sally Rowe.

GREG: I'd be calling for help! But that's what I really wanted to explore, what is it that drives these two. One of the film posters encapsulated this. The shot of Eddie's face when Tom whispers from behind. It's creepy. That's what I was looking for. I was looking for "what is it about him? what is he thinking?”, and I don't necessarily think he's thinking, you know "I'm really interested in this guy." He's taunting Alex, in one of the worst ways you can imagine, with manipulation and control.

I think that's definitely how I saw it, in terms of when we first see Nigel. Sure. he's a little bit weird and a bit creepy. You wouldn't want to sit next to him in class. But he's harmless enough. It's even mentioned in your script, the scene where Alex and Josh take him onto the train. He snaps. He's had enough of Alex pushing. And Nigel, whether that's him allowing himself to be the person he's always been. It's like you were saying - if they were on their own, would they ever be triggered into this sort of Frankenstein that they become when they are together?

GREG: I don't believe they would. They would have just gone on with their lives. Alex is very self-serving. He'd become a CEO of a large company. Nigel? More of a loner, more of a quiet kind of guy going about things behind the scenes.

I do agree. I think it's really, you know, who is the person that caused this?

GREG: I think there's one smoking gun.

In your mind, is it very clear that it's the fault of Alex or Nigel? Or is it something completely different?

GREG: Alex is very much responsible. Not that he knew this was going to be the case. He didn't know he was triggering someone who was a potential time bomb, he didn't know any of this would happen.

GREG: I'm sure it's quite late for you.

It's currently 00:40 in the morning, but I have nowhere to be, so it's no problem.

GREG: Yeah, sorry about that. It's just been very busy, as you know, for the last six or eight months. It's been busier than normal.

Have you been up to a lot of new stuff recently, then? Anything in particular that you've got coming out, or that you're proud of?

GREG: I'm working on a bunch of projects right now, but I do a lot of things these days. I've been very fortunate in my career that I've been able to move across all parts of the film industry from development to all areas of production including post. I'm not someone that just does one thing. I tend to do multiple, I always have.

When I started on Like Minds, it was my hobby project. At the time I was working on documentaries, television commercials, and music videos. For me, as a documentary film maker, it was a concept that I wanted to develop. So I wrote the original treatment as a documentary. Primarily it was an investigation into Gestalt psychology and how people who are incapable of being a monster by themselves can come together to be one. In a way a psychological Frankenstein story. What is it about these sorts of relationships?

However my documentary sales company took one look at my treatment and said "This is not a documentary." Well you can imagine my disappointment with him saying that. Then after what felt like an eternity, he said, “you must write this as a feature film.” It was a moment of “wow what a compliment,” to one of absolute trepidation. Trouble was I had never written a drama script before and I had no idea if I could. So I took a short night time writing course and got the basics. I also got my hands on some great scripts. Kubrick, Hitchcock, David Lean films. These wonderful filmmakers had scripts that were so well constructed, every word had to fight to be on the page. I love the way their stories explored character. I found the character driven plots incredibly well thought out, especially in Hitchcock films, like Strangers on a Train.

Beautiful film.

GREG: Yeah, beautiful. That's why I make a little homage to it in the Like Minds when Alex goes to the cinema. And it also relates to the last shot of my film, two strangers on a train….

So I thought, well, okay, why can't I write a drama that explores character but also stays true to my original documentary idea. So I set about to write something that explored Gestalt psychology but tell it in an interesting/engaging way.

So every morning, before a busy work day I would write 3-5 pages. I had a lot of support from my wife, she would read each scene as I wrote them to give me feedback on where she thought the story was heading, this helped me weave the story threads and make it less predictable and stay on track. It was wonderful to watch the script evolve this way. But this took time. I was still running my companies and I had staff. I couldn't just say to my staff, "Well I'm going to go make movies now, so you can all go home," I didn't want to do that. So I thought, "Well alright, I'll write this over time and see how it goes, and we'll go from there."

After finishing the first draft I sent it back to my documentary sales company. Then there was silence. Not a word. It was like torture, not knowing what someone thinks of your work. After a few days I heard my sales guy had flown to New Zealand, where he met up with some producers who were working on Lord of the Rings, and he had shown the script to one of the producers, Mark Ordesky.

Mark was travelling to Sydney so he met up with me. I got to meet Orlando Bloom and a few other people who were in Sydney at the time, which was very, very exciting. However as it turned out Orlando was very busy on the Lord of the Rings trilogy and Black Hawk Down was about to happen so he wasn’t available. But just as well, as I wouldn’t have ended up finding Eddie [Redmayne]. But it gave me a glimpse into the rollercoaster ride of film making. One day you’re making a film, the next you are back to square one. This was quite a welcome to the “Snakes and Ladders” of feature film making.

A few years passed. I did some more drafts but there was no meaningful traction. During this time I expanded my experience into working on Australian feature films as a co-producer and executive producer, to gain experience. I also worked on low budget films as 1st Assistant Director and Production Manager. Even though I had been to film school, this was “at the coal face” experience, which was invaluable.

It was now six years since the first draft, however over the years, having worked on a range of films, I had met some great film makers and producers, one being the producer Jonathan Shteinman. Jonathan felt the best chance we had to make the film was to raise the finance as a co-production with the UK. So we teamed up with Piers Tempest at Tempo Productions in the UK. Screen Australia came on board and we were able to get Toni Collette interested. I travelled to London and started casting.

Lucy Bevan, an amazing casting director, suggested watching some plays which had some great young actors in them. One being a play at Covent Garden called Hecuba, a Greek tragedy. Eddie played Polydorus, the murdered son of Hecuba. The first time I saw him was as he rose up out of a pond in the middle of the stage soaking wet. His performance was mesmerizing. I knew straight away he’d be perfect for Alex. I met Eddie after the play and invited him to a casting session with us. At that point, I already had Tom [Sturridge] on my radar. So I brought them in together, and the chemistry between the two was just palpable. I made a video, then sent some images to Toni Collette to get her reaction, and she looked at them and said "wow, these guys are great." So I knew I had the chemistry.

Eddie Redmayne in “Hecuba” - Donmar Warhouse, 2004. (courtesy of @laurelwen and @addictedtoeddie)

They are absolutely fantastic. I mean, that's something that gets mentioned a lot in fan discussions about Like Minds - the chemistry between the two of them. As you know, I've told you about the community online and it's always sort of growing, and we'll occasionally get someone new who wants to know what the deal is, really. Like, are they in love? Do they just want to kill one another? Which is thrilling for us to be able to tell them it's up for their interpretation, how they were written. There's so many ways to interpret it, which is a testament not just to your writing but to the fantastic chemistry between the actors.

GREG: Thank you. That was absolutely, the intention because I believe there's many ways you can see things, many ways to unpack it, based on your own learned experience and what you know. I wrote the script so that it could be interpreted in different ways. But there is one clear way that it should be examined, if you want to be really black and white about it - it does follow the rules of Gestalt psychology. So it's not ambiguous, but it’s not a closed book either, which is a very strange way to put it, but I was deliberate about it. It's a psychological puzzle, the actual film is a puzzle box. So you're right, when you said you were trying to unpack it, trying to understand it as it seems to have a lot of layers - yes. Yes, it does. There's lots of little hidden things throughout it, little Easter eggs, so to speak.

I thought, if people looked into the history the boys talk about in the film, they may get something extra out of the story as well. It may inspire people to read books on these subjects and start to understand some of the concepts I included. There's so much material in contemporary historical books as well as books written back in the 1800’s that is referred to in the story.

Definitely a lot to read, then!

GREG: I know! Some is in Nigel’s Bible. There's all sorts of history, but ultimately that was just me having fun because I knew when I started refining the research that went into this, there was so much more than I could put into the screenplay.

Of course.

GREG: So I had thousands of pages of documentation, and I handpicked things to look at. Maybe in hindsight I could have been a little bit clearer about certain things, but I don't know - I don't think you need to be hand fed. I didn't want to lead people one way or the other. I felt that it was important that they come away with their own interpretation. What does the ending mean? What actually happened?