Torchwood-99

I loved reading your thoughts about Nesta and her father since that also didn’t make sense to me. I always figured Nesta’s trauma stemmed from the matriarchal side of her family and it’s helping me come to a certain understanding. I was just hoping maybe your perspective might give nessian a fresh angle I’m missing.

Hello! I will do my best. I assume we probably won't agree 100% but I am very much in the mood to lend some nuance to Nesta's character since the fandom is either intensely anti her or pro her, and both stances distort her character (and tbh some of the takes I've seen COMPLETELY missed the point of her entire character and of acosf, not to mention they are super vitriolic and antagonistic towards other people in the fandom. Calm the fuck down, y'all. No you op, just... the fandom.)

I take nessian as being a very different type of ship than any of sjm's others. Her other ships have tension that usually stops short of cruelty, but nessian are very aggressive as a couple and that energy turns antagonistic sometimes. Their dynamic is what made sjm make them mates, because Nesta is a force to be reckoned with and Cassian is not only strong enough to be with her and give it back, but he doesn't turn away from her either, when so many people in her life have stopped trying (Amren, Elain, Feyre to an extent).

I put the rest of this under the cut because it got very long!

The fact of the matter is he also said/did hurtful things to her as well which is still wrong. Nesta has a strong attitude that someone like Cassian can handle but then why not hold them both accountable if Cassian actively tells her he can handle her, even going as far as giving her permission to rip into him ‘let’s hear it Nes’ ‘anything you have you can throw at me. I won’t break’ but insults her as well.

It confuses me when people get mad at Cassian for being mean to Nesta because that street goes both ways. They both say horrible things to each other that they know will wound, though Nesta does it first and more often.

I see what you’re telling me here and that’s wherein the problem lies. They both have said things to each other. The fact that acosf is told in Cassians pov, we don’t get an indication/acknowledgment from him that he was an ass to Nesta at times as well. I think it can be debated if Nesta does it first because if you read back to their interactions pre acosf in fact Nesta only insults when she’s actively trying to keep him away from her. Not to get some sort of reaction from him. But I suppose that can be left up to interpretation. In another note, not to excuse Nesta’s behavior because ultimately I agree, she is expertly finding his insecurities and exploits them, but I appreciate that sjm gave this to a female character because it’s more prevalent in male characters (take a look at Will Herondale as an example). I like that Nesta was given that.

And it's ironic to me that Nesta gets angry at how Eris insulted Cassian in that way, because she has done the exact same thing.

I’d be lying if I didn’t say this is actually why I think Neris would be such an interesting ship to explore. The similarities of how both are experts at this mental warfare both at the hands of abusive parents that raised them to have those traits. I’m curious as to why sjm decided to give us a taste of Neris if she saw this or if it was just unintentional. Regardless, this is also a point as to why I have a problem with Nessian. Nesta in her pov sees this and acknowledges it. ‘Oily shame coursed through her’ but this same sentiment is not given to her back in Cassians pov, as I mentioned already. Because even if Cassians insults are just reactions to Nesta’s insults two wrongs don’t make it right. Nesta was also owed.

Nesta has identified a weakness and exploits it in order to push Cassian away, so I'm not surprised that it worked and he snaps.

What Nesta sometimes, explicitly, wants is for Cassian to leave her alone. Acofas when he insisted on walking her home and she tells him to leave and go back. She’s not in the wrong to ask for this. At this point Nesta doesn’t resort to insults yet he tells her he can’t see why her sisters love her or that she needs to try harder or leave. This is what I mean about Feyre/Nesta pov is subjective because in Feyre’s pov one can see Cassian has emotional intelligence but in Nesta’s that’s not really obvious

I dislike the arguments that because Cassian is older, he should know better or whatever, because 1) Nesta is an adult, and 2) as an Elder Millennial lol I know that age doesn't mean anything when it comes to maturity. In fact, I've lost my fucks with increasing frequency over the past few years. I know 20 year olds who are more mature than 40 year olds. It's just not that simple!

The way I see it more lessons and more reflections have been made in someone alive for 500 years than someone around for 25. I agree maturity levels vary and are realistically not linear but I’m heavy on the idea that removing that large age gap would help me see Cassian/IC from a more balanced perspective.

Feysand are leaders, nessian are warriors, and in the future I see elucien as co-conspirators and gwynriel as competitors.

I love this ✨

Cassian just isn't paying attention, he forgets that Nesta isn't a hundreds of years old Illyrian tough guy and she *had barely gotten to the bottom of the stairs at the HoW (edit because I forgot she did that just before these shenanigans). Nesta is a grown adult, he's not her babysitter, she could have said something but instead she just suffered.

Although you’re right Nesta doesnt need to be babysat the reason she is there is because of Cassian’s insistence. I mentioned before that Feyre’s wrong doings seem more palatable because they have this martyr undertone and similarly that’s what’s going on here. The hike scene is Cassian trying to help Nesta heal because he knows he can’t save her that only she can and she needs to face those demons. But having her carry the pack that was purposefully made heavy, is enough for me to reflect that Cassians anger is indicative that he is not equipped emotionally to have Nesta undergo this physically difficult task. The fact the hike is posed as a punishment for Nesta despite her clearly exhibiting self destructive tendencies is why I will hold Cassian accountable here basically.

Cassian is taking her reaction personally (and why wouldn't he, when she has spent so much time picking at his insecurities?)

It’s interesting that you say this because I feel like it adds some nuance to Nessian that IMO would make for long term problems in the relationship. Previous mistakes shouldn’t be held over your SO’s heads at the sign of disagreements if it’s been decided you forgive them. But I can appreciate the nuance for what it is.

and she is thinking of how the Cauldron and being Made affected her (and why wouldn't she, when she is still grappling with her trauma?) They are basically both thinking of themselves! And not considering how the other one feels.

Maybe the shackled scene is so alarming because of what was said but also what was not said. In Nesta’s pov she doesn’t believe she had a good reason to send Cassian away. Despite it being a very mature course of action. Let alone that she had very valid reasons for hesitating. Both thought of themselves but Nesta did no insults despite her being primed and ready to shoot them off. It’s amazing growth on her end despite her thoughts still being so muddled by her self depreciation.

I think re: whether Nesta and/or Cassian did or said hurtful things to one another, ultimately, I don't really care 😬 Feyre threw a shoe at Rhys in anger, he didn't tell her about their mating bond, he hid the pregnancy from her, Rowan hit Aelin, Aelin told Rowan she agreed with the genocide of his people, Bryce consistently disregards Hunt's trauma and wonders why he can't just get over things. None of those things stop me from shipping any of those couples (except quinlar because I just don't like her haha). That's just to explain my perspective on why I can still get on board with nessian. If characters do mean things to each other, 95% of the time I just shrug because it's mainly there for conflict and drama.

She’s not in the wrong to ask for this. At this point Nesta doesn’t resort to insults yet he tells her he can’t see why her sisters love her or that she needs to try harder or leave. This is what I mean about Feyre/Nesta pov is subjective because in Feyre’s pov one can see Cassian has emotional intelligence but in Nesta’s that’s not really obvious

See I agree with this! I think Cassian probably should have left Nesta alone at that point, especially when she's explicit with her wishes. Two thoughts 1) Nesta doesn't normally ask people to leave her alone, she just insults them until they do. At this point it's been about 9 months since acowar and the IC, Feyre, and Elain have done nothing but leave Nesta alone. I don't think it's reasonable for them to completely sever ties with her. You don't leave the people you love alone to suffer. 2) Cassian realizes in acosf that the reason Nesta wanted to be left alone was because of the sound of the fire reminding her of her father's neck breaking, and he feels bad that he didn't realize that. And how could he? Nesta doesn't ever open up to anyone. She doesn't have to, but she also can't have it both ways, where people understand and respect her space, but she never offers them anything in return. That's a really unfair, uneven relationship. (I am speaking of Nesta in acofas and acosf, not prior to that. Before that, she had been making efforts.)

I don't think that Cassian having emotional awareness is a black and white thing, that he either has it or he doesn't. I think he has more than other characters (e.g. Az in regards to himself) but it doesn't always come through when his own emotions are clouding his judgement. It doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing thing. So he absolutely had emotional awareness about what Feyre was going through and was able to support her through things that she wasn't necessarily expressing out loud in acomaf. That's not untrue, just because he wasn't able to figure out that Nesta had trauma around fires. Perhaps when he's more emotionally invested, it's harder for him to make those observations. That would make sense, to me.

I've made the analogy before that Feyre and Nesta's povs are like watching a movie with a GoPro strapped to Feyre's head in acotar-fas, and now with acosf we are watching the movie in widescreen. It's not that either of them were wrong or distorted, just that we get more in acosf because the narration isn't attached only to Nesta.

The similarities of how both are experts at this mental warfare both at the hands of abusive parents that raised them to have those traits.

Agree! I think Nesta and Eris are an interesting ship because of how horrible they could make one another 😂 I think it would be toxic and I love the occasional toxic ship (hello darklina). But - and I know you're going to hate this statement, but I'm going to make it anyway - this is what makes me think about when Mor says that Nesta would "thrive" in the Court of Nightmares. Mor doesn't think Nesta would suffer there, or be tortured there, or be abused there. She thinks that Nesta would rule the place. And doesn't the fandom, or at least part of it, agree? And for me, the overarching conflict in acosf is whether Nesta will embrace that nature, or if she will move down a healthier path because, as we know from Nesta's internal thoughts, she doesn't actually want to act the way that she's acting. She regrets a lot of the things that she says.

But having her carry the pack that was purposefully made heavy,

Didn't Az make these packs, though 👀 I checked and he did:

Cassian soared over the House of Wind to find Azriel there, hovering in place, a heavy pack in his hand. [...] He picked it up, muscles shifting in his forearm with the weight, and walked to her before dumping it between her feet. “I can’t fit a pack that big on my back with the wings. So you’ll be carrying it.” Had Azriel known that? From the icy, amused gleam in Cassian’s eye, she thought yes.

So yep, that is on Azriel. And maybe Cassian shouldn't be smug about it, but he didn't get that ball rolling, Az did, and yes, intentionally. (Also lol why was Azriel just hovering there?)

I’m heavy on the idea that removing that large age gap would help me see Cassian/IC from a more balanced perspective.

There is definitely the potential for that age gap to have resulted in Cassian having more maturity, but I don't think that sjm has actually written these characters to act like 500+ year olds. Not that it's possible for us to know what a person would be like, but they act like they are in their 20s and 30s, to me. The only character that I think acts really old is Amren. So maybe in theory Cassian could be more mature, but it's not a guarantee, even if sjm were better at writing these super old characters. I don't personally like the way that implies we should to hold Cassian to a higher standard in the relationship because of his age, because it should be a partnership.

I do think that, in regards to the way Nesta treats people and the way that they treat her, there is a huge difference. This is probably the subject of a different post, but Nesta does not offer people the same compassion and understanding that they initially offer her. The fact that they rescind those offerings after she rebuffs them is not at all surprising. She is learning to be better, because the things she says to people are often really, really not okay, and she knows that, and that's the whole reason she is saying them. But to me it's apples and oranges.

(The following points about your post though, to make it less confusing, are in regards to how Nessian/IC becoming particularly problematic to me post acowar. )

Nesta doesn't normally ask people to leave her alone, she just insults them until they do- If I think about it Nesta’s insults/mean behavior is too complicated to chalk it down to ‘wanting to be alone’ it’s mentioned that she does it as a way to keep anyone from seeing who she is, a wall to keep herself from feeling too much and I think there’s several other stuff (like the parental abuse) but about Nesta’s wanting to be alone, a particular character trait that sets her aside she genuinely enjoys her solitude sometimes. She mentions after interacting with Emerie how it was enough interactions for a day. She prefers to have dinners in her private library alone. Back to the point though her unnecessary insults to get there is beside the point that I’m saying Cassian feeds it as well. Which my point is that both are wrong. But nesta gets the blunt end of the judgment per as @xstarlightsupremex comment which I agree. this point it's been about 9 months since acowar and the IC, Feyre, and Elain have done nothing but leave Nesta alone- Just to be clear I am critical of how the story could have reached some pretty essential points (elain standing up for herself) without making the sisters look like ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ if only there had been a little more attention to detail. I understand the sisters don’t need to put in this extra effort with Nesta since she wants to be alone. Really my problem is again with the story on how we’re told that Nesta is an ass for not going to dinners after being invited, for not moving into the River house after being invited. Those are the explicitly stated methods of ‘help’ the sisters try. I’m not expecting nor do I blame the sisters for not ‘trying harder’ it’s just that I feel like these weren’t attempts that warrants all this contemp against Nesta but maybe it can be dwindled down to an sjm failure or just Nesta’s pov/self loathing being subjective 🤷🏻‍♀️ She believes she’s a jerk for turning those things away when really no it wasn’t. Why should she be guilted into joining functions on top of already clearly struggling except to force a happy face?. And how could he? Nesta doesn't ever open up to anyone. She doesn't have to, but she also can't have it both ways, where people understand and respect her space, but she never offers them anything in return- I’m a little confused here because the space one wants is a right not really a respect earned? There is the ,she can’t have it both ways, that I disagree because she doesn’t want it any other way. I think if I want to give the intervention as problematic as I see it, any credit it’s that she doesn’t want anyone to help her/come close she wants to— cease feeling. That's not untrue, just because he wasn't able to figure out that Nesta had trauma around fires. Perhaps when he's more emotionally invested, it's harder for him to make those observations- I mentioned Cassians emotional intelligence in relation to his insults to Nesta not necessarily that I expected him to understand her fears or trauma because I agree how was he to know? Which is why it goes back the problem that Cassian really given any sort of responsibility for the hurtful things he says and does which are still wrong. And although you mentioned some of the wrongs in the other ships I understand it’s what makes these book relationships interesting, first I don’t been care nor have I read any of those other ships second my issue with Nessian dynamic is we have this imbalance he-said-she-said kind of relationship that Nesta is constantly pointed as in the wrong. From the fandom and the characters themselves.

(Mor) She thinks that Nesta would rule the place. And doesn't the fandom, or at least part of it, agree?- I definitely see this is what Mor meant. Which is the problem. It’s a whole topic because as I mentioned what we have and know of Mor is from what we’re given in Feyre’s pov that she is kind despite having suffered, that she saves women, made a sanctuary for women, suffered herself at the hands of her awful family but yet all these deeds and trait arent applied to Nesta (I’m thinking this is where we will disagree) because regardless of their age she is a nc leader, like it’s a duty? I would agree it is totally warranted for Mor to have gone “peace bye” but shes not. she’s encouraging where Nesta would ‘thrive’ not even knowing or trying to see where these traits would come from and maybe either 1. Just go “peace bye” 2. Maybe as a leader not encourage those things? which leads to all the other women that might need help in CoN (but that a trickier topic) As I mentioned two wrongs don’t make it right, which again is what my point is here. And maybe Cassian shouldn't be smug about it, but he didn't get that ball rolling,- I hope there’s no confusion here because I’m very much well aware that Az did that but the point is that even as yuu said Cassian is smug and yet still He purposefully makes her carry this ‘extra’ heavy pack. Still cruel but no real regret in his end. So maybe in theory Cassian could be more mature, but it's not a guarantee, even if sjm were better at writing these super old characters. I don't personally like the way that implies we should to hold Cassian to a higher standard in the relationship because of his age, because it should be a partnership.- I think it’s the fact you had to use the words ‘in theory’ and ‘not a guarantee’ as a good reason for the gap to be left out as well. Because really at this point it’s just like 50 yes/50no depending. But since it’s what we got I want to clarify the age should atleast make them more, if not mature, then experienced. because they’ve been alive for a lot longer. Which imo does mean Cassian should be held at a higher standard there. Seeing the relationship as a partnership is the only way a reader can see it as because if not it would be borderline gross. So yea I agree it’s better to view it that way but yet another reason to sweep any wrong-doing of Cassian/IC away.

After one rude remark, I would have been like "peace, have a nice life!" and gotten out.- I don’t blame you but it’s ironic because This is actually what I would have liked for the IC to have done. Really the only ones to even remotely be able to even opinionate on Nesta are her sisters because you mentioned ‘I don't think it's reasonable for them to completely sever ties with her. You don't leave the people you love alone to suffer.’ Which reminds me that you mentions how pros/antis warp Nesta characters but I could never be such a heavy anti to say any of them deserve to be kicked to the curb despite all of them being morally gray. Which is often enough a lot of vitriol I see towards Nesta only. Cant stand that. I know there’s some heavy anti Nesta people that take things way out of context. I personally don’t see the sisters as trying so much as they were just making a slight attempt at not completely abandoning her (I’m still not trying to insinuate they should’ve done more). Other than that the IC, who are of no relation to Nesta, can be held accountable for their own cruelties torwards Nesta as well. Esp because the worst that they do to her is when she’s at her lowest healing journey at the hands of something they set her up for post acowar. And let me take the chance to point out the ‘cruelties’ I keep mentioning- Amren saying they need to manipulate her using Elain, Rhys threatening to physically hurt her left and right, Az and the heavy pack, to name a few. Which make Nesta’s insults pale in comparison. This is probably the subject of a different post, but Nesta does not offer people the same compassion and understanding that they initially offer her. The fact that they rescind those offerings after she rebuffs them is not at all surprising.- I don’t really see any of this compassion and understanding you mentioned. And by this I mean post acowar when nesta was at her lowest. because pre acowar I know people say IC are nice to Elain because she is nice, polite, and repentful and I truly get it like it’s cool Nesta doesn’t really get presents or get invited anywhere other than by her sisters but it still brings me back how Cassian/IC antagonize her sometimes even trying to hinder Nesta’s healing process post acowar— ‘let her build these bonds and stay out of it’— one of the few moments Cassians understanding peaks through. Like that’s the problem I’m trying to bring to light here that ties with how Nesta and Cassian relationship seems to work with Cassian being the guy Nesta needs to be worthy of. Like no he was an ass too. Nesta was an ass, the entire IC, Elain, and Feyre at some point were asses as well but it’s okay because Nesta was ‘mean first’. like I can’t get behind that. My response to Nesta's character stems from my belief that experiences and feelings are not an excuse for cruelty- Definitely it’s true and totally valid. And vice versa the issues/response to Cassians/IC in relation to this is that there is still no excuse for being cruel to someone regardless especially when they should be held to a higher standard for being in power.

I expected her to feel extra traumatized because he died before they could reconcile but his deathbed speech of "I loved you since I first held you" doesn't undo everything else he did in his life.

I know authors don’t have to believe the ideas that they put on the page or spout their idealism in the book, but… if she is self inserting everywhere else I have a hard time differentiating the “message” she trying to send. Especially when she goes on interviews later and is like feminism, Biden, healing, perfect Rhysand, I don’t like those fairytales those are sexist, blah blah.

It is so incredibly infuriating seeing people place all of the blame on Nesta for the Archeron’s childhood. They literally act like the father was not there and parentification is great when (correct me if I’m wrong) it’s abuse.

Remember how cassian said he was shackled to her? And remember how nesta felt the need for HER to apologize? Yeah, appalling. Then theres her saying that rhys showed her nothing but kindness even though hes threatened to kill her several times.

Feyre that is your friend, a man that trusts and has known you since you arrived in Prythian. "wAs It OkAy FoR mE tO mInD-rApE hIm?" What in the ever loving fuck made you think it was remotely justified- Oh right, your chosen husband.

And what does Rhyseepoo say?

It has been SO LONG since I've ranted about ACOSF. Can you believe there was a time when like, I was knee-deep in Neris and was really critical of the IC? It feels like forever ago.

Did I like ACOSF? Brain off, yes, I liked it a lot. It's very much an SJM novel in which centuries old men get to tell near-teenage women what they do/don't need, put them in danger as life lessons, and any bad behavior on said man's part is erased by the fandom in favor of vilifying the woman in question. And before someone tries to come for me, this happens with literally ALL the ACOTAR woman LI's (so save your breath).

Did I like ACOSF? Brain on, no. Cassian is the picture of petulant asshole unable to reign himself in for 5 minutes. Nesta is so successful in pushing the buttons of the general to the night courts armies that you have to wonder how he even got the job?

The plot is thin and falls apart the moment you examine it. Cassian is GENERAL to the NIGHT COURT. And Rhys asks Cassian why he doesn't want more. Why SHOULD he? Does Rhys want more than being High Lord? Does Azriel want more than being spymaster? Cassian holds the highest position for his profession, why should he have to play courtier, too? It's necessary to move the plot forward, since Nesta is effectively trapped in the house of wind, but it bothered me from the jump. Cassian is supposed to be the most powerful warrior, and the idea that somehow its under vauled to...what? Arguing with Eris? Hilarious.

I also dislike a lot of the romance beats in the book. I don't care about the sex/sex plot line, but Cassian spends a lot of time seemingly breaking Nesta down when he internally is aware that she is punishing herself for things that are not her fault. Like he'll think that, he'll feel sympathy...and then he'll laugh when she falls down the stairs. Azriel asks early in if a facial injury Nesta got is an accident, implying it could have been Cassian and that was an ugly moment to me. It pulled me out of the book like oh my god?

I have spoken so much about that hike scene that I'm not touching it here again, but the idea that it was supposed be therapeutic frustrates me. Cassian has no business punishing Nesta for the problems between herself and her sister and literally cant' help himself it seems. Hardly a good look.

Finally, the whole Eris/Cassian/Nesta plot. While I think that people would have liked the Neris pairing regardless of how Eris acted, SJM was working overtime to make Eris sympathetic for her upcoming plot while also making Cassian...what we saw him as...which made people wonder why Cassian was somehow the better person. Because he's IC? Friends with Rhys (who petulantly hates Nesta over her childhood with his wife)? It was hard not to draw comparisons with their situation and think they could have helped each other.

There are a lot of things I liked- Cassian learning to dance, Cassian and Nesta in the prison, Cassian crying when Nesta confesses she doesn't think she's good enough for him because he's so overwhelmed anyone things HE is too good for THEM.

I was never a Nesta hater, and Cassian was my favorite of the bats, so ACOSF was rough for me. I'm doing a big re-read with LB and I admit, I am both excited and dreading getting back to it.

*literal pages later*

Amr*n: Nesta was brought here and found the mask for you to use as a weapon.

Ela*n explains how Nesta had the one thing she enjoyed in her childhood taken from here to aid her mother’s schemes and be taught how to seduce older men BEFORE SHE WAS 14, disgusting everyone who heard about it

*literal pages later, AGAIN*

Reese’s peanut buttercup: We want you to seduce a man by using the one thing you once enjoyed for the sake of our plan

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:

Daddy Archeron: neglect

Tomas— assault

Rhysand threatens to kill her

Momma and grandmama Archeron: pimps her out and hits her with a stick

The thing in the prison forces a sex vision on her against her will

The kelpie in the river shoves it’s tongue down her throat against her will

Cassian: the hike, doesn’t take no for an answer, stalks her, he’s her prison guard and she has no means to escape the house so the sex scenes use coercion and dubious consent (aka SA—when she had a choice her choice was always no), borderline verbally abusive (told her everyone hates her), intimidates her when she has something to critic about rhysand, ETC

Feyre: talked mad shit about her and their upbringing and then played the victim again and again when Nesta felt some type of way about it, invaded the privacy of her kind, manipulated her and held elain against her to force her to work for her court, never takes no for an answer, demolished her living quarters, has several mansions but didn’t compensate Nesta for her contributions during the war (wage theft) and instead dangled shelter in front of her like a carrot to get her to do what Feyre wants

All those men who went home with her when she was supposedly drunk off her ass

I could honestly go on. Nesta is not the villain but she sure as hell SHOULD be. She reminds me of Medusa, who was punished for the actions of another.