Mm Names (xe/they)

So as some of y’all know, I got an ask requesting an analysis of the MDZS extra sex scenes along the same vein as the previous sex and consent posts.  And I tried.  I wrote a long, sometimes rambling analysis of the first Incense Burner extra.

But, wow, it ended up a mess.  And then I had a conversation with the anon asker over chat about their feelings about the sex scenes in MDZS and the problems they have with them.

So I’m going to do this a little differently.  I don’t really see the point in going in depth with the Extras in the same way I did for the others.  For a number of reasons.

First of all, I don’t think they are really Canon Canon.  Yes, they’re written by MXTX but she didn’t put them in the main body of the novel for a reason.  Furthermore, she alienated these sex scenes from reality even further by using the framing of a magical incense burner that makes you experience dreams as real.  These feel very much like fanfiction, an author writing fanfic of her own work.  The level of explicitness is WAY higher than in the main novel, and the content is far more extreme. 

But let’s briefly talk about the content of the Incense Burner fics and what there is to be said about consent.   Trigger warning for NSFW sexual content, non-consensual sexual activity, minors or at least the images(?) of minors engaging in the above.  Seriously, if rape or discussions of rape are triggering for you, don’t read the rest of this post.  At least not without fair warning.

Wei Wuxian’s entire life is characterized by exerting control and being punished for it.

He defends Mianmian and that leads in part to the massacre of his Jiang sect. He accepts responsibility for Jiang Cheng and to do so he ends up giving his golden core. He loses the ability to defend himself to defend others, but that is his choice. Then he is thrown in the Yiling Burial Mounds. He selects to become a demonic cultivator (in order to survive) and takes revenge on the Wens. People to distrust him because he’s so powerful. He chooses to defend the suriving Wens and so he loses the right to be associated with the Jiang sect and with the larger world, formally becoming the enemy of the cultivational world.

He chooses to attend Jin Ling’s 100 days - he gets ambushed and accidentally Jin Zixuan dies. He loses the people he was protecting. The world distains him so he decides to fight back - he kills his shijie. The last parts were informed by madness but in all Wei Wuxian’s life is defined by losing control. He dies from the ultimate lost of control - qi deviation/blackfire aka the inability to control his own body.

It is reasonable with those experiences for Wei Wuxian to enjoy rape fantasies. What is a rape fantasy? It’s have control taken from you in a way that is aimed and your pleasure. It’s a safe way to explore lost of control and get pleasure from it. It’s a narrative he gets to control.

As for Lan Wangji, he has all the characterization of the stereotypical gong (this is the Chinese equivalent for seme. Both of which are dated terms that are pretty much now exclusively used as fannish terms for top). These traits are being stoic, possessive, rich, and domineering. I know people will disagree that he is posessive and domineering but here are a few things he has done.

1. He stole Wei Wuxian’s first kiss by holding him down so Wei Wuxian wouldn’t remove his blindfold.

2. He’s stole gifts Wei Wuxian received from woman twice: the perfumed satchel and the flower. Of which he kept for years along with any other item related to Wei Wuxian.

3. Throughout the sunshot campaign, he would keep trying to take Wei Wuxian back to the Cloud Recesses

What stops Lan Wangji from being a typical gong is his adherence to stricture. He internalized his sects teachings. This is shown to us when Lan Wangji accepts punishment for something that Wei Wuxian forced him to do. That causes him conflict with how he wants Wei Wuxian. We see this in the scene where Lan Wangji admits to Lan Xichen that he wants to bring someone to the Cloud Recesses but they don’t want to come. We also see it when he punches a tree for giving into wanting to kiss Wei Wuxian.

After Wei Wuxian dies and Lan Wangji questions whether unwaveringly following the rules without consideration is smart. He changes. He forcefully brings Wei Wuxian back to the Cloud Recesses as he always wanted. When Wei Wuxian teases him, he is domineering and just numbs Wei Wuxian’s limbs when the more proper and likely Lan correct action would have been to punish Wei Wuxian or move to a different space. Lan Wangji still adheres to scripture but is more flexible.

I’ve been sitting on this ask for a while trying to ponder it. It’s a difficult question to answer because we don’t get a TON of information about the First Siege of the Burial Mounds and who exactly participating in it and what WWX knew about the force.

What I think we do know is that his memory of that time is very unreliable to nonexistant.  He’s clearly in some altered mental state from Nightless City to his death that is not conducive to him remembering details. 

I think, mostly, he doesn’t think about it.  He seems very determined once he comes back to let that part of his life go and not hold onto resentments about it.

But, given what he thinks of LWJ in general: that he was always against him and his use of Modao...I think he probably thinks LWJ was involved in the Siege.  I mean, at first, in the novel, he’s downright SCARED of LWJ.  He is worried about what LWJ will do if he finds out he’s not MXY but actually WWX.   And that makes sense if you assume he thinks LWJ played a role in wanting him dead previously. 

But as I said, I think he forgives him for this easily and doesn’t dwell on it.  He knows that LWJ is righteous and strict in his morals and he knows that he did things that violated those morals and were in the wrong.  I don’t think he’s very preoccupied with feeling wronged or that his treatment was terribly unfair.  He made his choices and he took the consequences, in his mind. 

Part 3 of my Deep Dive into the MDZS novel sex scenes to see exactly what is going on in regards to consent.  (Part One) (Part Two)

And since we start off mid-sex, gotta cut immediately.  Adult stuff below, natch.

Part 3 of my Deep Dive into the MDZS novel sex scenes to see exactly what is going on in regards to consent.  (Part One) (Part Two)

And since we start off mid-sex, gotta cut immediately.  Adult stuff below, natch.

Let’s talk about Consent in MDZS Part Two: Ch 111  (Part 1 is here.)

So right after WWX and LWJ leave Wen Ning and Lan Sizhui behind, they have a little conversation and then Wei Wuxian pulls LWJ into a kiss. LWJ just gives him a stunned reaction and WWX says “You’re so cold. Right now, shouldn’t you be pinning me onto the ground…” at which point, LWJ grabs him “roughly” and kisses him again, lifts him off Little Apple and pins him to the ground to kiss more.  

So, Wei Wuxian initiating, then specifically ASKING to be pinned down, which LWJ does.  So far so much clear consent.

There’s a lot of discourse out there about the MDZS novel and claims that it is “rapey” and has a lot of consent issues.  Now, I’m not the biggest fan of the way MXTX writes sex, and I don’t deny there are problematic elements in them.  But I also feel like people who want to dismiss the entire novel as a result of this or MXTX as a writer are making pretty wild generalizations.  So I want to really examine these scenes and see how objectionable they are.  I’m also going to be talking about translation and how that affects a reader’s perceptions.

There are two sex scenes in the regular novel (i.e. not the bonus extras.) I don’t intend to tackle the extras because they are a lot different in that they are mostly sexual dream fantasies and take place in an established relationship.

Obviously there’s going to be adult content here.  And this is LONG and only the first of THREE posts.  And if you haven’t read the novel I try to explain enough so you can follow along as well.

(Part One) (Part Two) (Part Three)

Until @tonyglowheart reminded me, I’d forgotten there is an extended/alternate version of the Chapter 111 sex scene that was only in the Traditional Chinese hard copy of MDZS.  So this is basically, MXTX’s revised-revised version of the scene, and likely the closest to her actual intent?  It’s more explicit than the other versions.

Luckily, there’s a nice translation of it.   It only covers the second half of the scene.  So all my quotes are going to be thanks to @bigbadredpanda.

First and foremost, every translation is a subjective interpretation. My translation follows my own understanding of the original text, of the characters, of the context. That’s one key aspect that makes Chinese so complex to translate, it’s a language that relies heavily on the ability to perceive the contextual clues in order to understand the implicit meaning.

Meanings

Unlike English which is a more precise language, Chinese commonly expresses with a single word a wide range of meanings that can even be contradictory.

In chapter 111, while Wei Wuxian is begging for mercy during sex, he says “你厉害，你太厉害了”. That’s the line that was translated as “you’re too much, you’re way too much” (ExR) and something along the lines of “you’re good, you’re too good” (chiaki_himura for the google doc) or “you’re amazing, you’re the best” (myself). If you break down the sentence, the literal meaning is “you are 厉害, you are too 厉害”. It’s this word, 厉害, that is the source of divergence between the different translations. Here are the dictionary definitions given by MDBG:

So nine meanings and one noticeably different than the others. It’s not like there is a consensus either, Fanyi Baidu doesn’t even have that last one:

In a vacuum, these are all valid translations of the word. If you had only “你厉害” to go by, you could understand it as “you’re merciless/harsh/unbearable/great”. That’s why when someone asks for help to translate a bit of Chinese, the first question that’s going to be raised is “What’s the context?” The ability to understand the context is something that is honed by practising the language and can’t be obtained from a glance at a dictionary. 厉害 is used fundamentally to convey a high degree of intensity. It can be negative if it’s about a person’s temperament or positive if it’s related to their skills. The positive meaning is also more frequent in everyday and colloquial speech, you can exclaim “厉害!” or “Awesome!” in praise of something or someone.

To me, it was in that positive sense that Wei Wuxian used the word within the context of that scene. He also used that same word a bit earlier when he was waxing lyrical about Lan Wangji, “How can such a gorgeous beauty play the guqin so well, have such proper penmanship, possess such strong spiritual energy, be endowed with such high cultivation base and even be so 厉害 in bed?”. That one is pretty much unambiguous. There’s other instances of the word like for example in chapter 38 where it’s Lan Jingyi proclaiming that Hanguang-Jun is amazing. Hence my choice of translation.

Implicitness

Chinese language permits to use words in parsimony. Dropping the subject or the verb in a sentence is commonly done without that affecting the comprehension because it’s understandable from the context.

In writing, you can make oblique references and not expound on the action of who does what exactly. In chapter 111, Lan Wangji muffles Wei Wuxian to stop his teasing. It was alternatively translated as a kiss or a hand covering his mouth or left vague. The original Chinese is just that, he “blocked his mouth”. (The audio drama makes it a kiss.)

Similarly, in the Taiwan extra, Wei Wuxian taunts Lan Wangji into using the silencing spell on him to prevent him from being overly rowdy during their nighttime activities. Lan Wangji then “seals” his mouth. As I was reading it for the first time, I thought that he did use the silencing spell but no, Wei Wuxian starts rambling again less than a paragraph later. I had missed the contextual clues that Lan Wangji had leant towards Wei Wuxian to seal his mouth, meaning that he had shut him up with a kiss again.

I’m fairly certain that this kind of bare-bones and oblique descriptions wouldn’t be ambiguous to the average Chinese reader with the intuitive linguistic and cultural awareness that can only be ingrained through immersion. (I’m leaving aside cases of more figurative descriptions that are subject to interpretation) When translating in English, you would feel the need to overtranslate for the sake of clarity.

Tone

Tone not being conveyed properly and leading to misinterpretations is something that’s been bothering me… Not only the playful banter from the sex scenes but also some forms of speech with sarcasm or rhetorical questions that I see taken at face value. For example, at one point, Wen Ning addresses Jin Ling by his courtesy name, Jin Rulan. Jin Ling snubs him and asks “Who’s that?’. He’s being scornful, he does know that it’s his own name but refuses to answer it. (Because it sounds too sissy according to MXTX. Yes, that’s from the boy who named his dog Fairy. Though he probably also has complicated feelings over this courtesy name because of the person who chose it)

I try to pay special attention to the speech of the characters when I translate. Wei Wuxian is this voluble talker who frequently uses in Chinese sentence-final particles when he speaks. (Lan Wangji pretty much never does) These are Chinese characters that don’t carry actual meanings but are used to express the speaker’s attitude and to nuance to what is stated. Some are used for emphasis, to make a statement obvious, to soften what is said, etc… They’re often left untranslated in English because there is seldom an equivalent so some information on the speaker’s intent ends up being lost.

Some examples:

These definitions don’t even cover the whole range of expressiveness that can be conveyed with these particles, they’re very versatile. When Wei Wuxian goes “Lan Zhan a”, it sounds much more enthusiastic than a normal “Lan Zhan”. Or surprised or flustered depending on the context. 

beneath six layers of silk by darkredloveknot

That should be the end of it, but words keep spilling, all round and soft like through a drunken mouth.

“I have underrobes of lace, too. They tear too easily. Can rarely wear them. But they are pretty.”

“Oh… Uhm. That’s cool.”

Wei Wuxian is wearing a very clear should you be telling me this -look.

“I have several in white. One in blue overlaid with sheer silk. One in black and magenta.”

“Uh-huh…”

“I look nice in them,” Lan Wangji whispers, and he does, and now he’s thinking about Wei Wuxian’s hands on him; warm through the lace and rough against the delicate fabric. The breath carrying his thoughts is stopped by that very hand slamming over his mouth. He blinks. Wei Wuxian is staring at him, eyes very wide and cheeks darkened.

Not only is this my first attempt at fan art, but also my first attempt at digital art in about ten years, so go gentle on me. When I got my iPad and was trying to think of things to do to figure out Procreate, this fic, and specifically this image was the first thing to pop into my head. 

伏魔洞, the name of the Yiling Laozu's den in the Burial Mounds: 伏 means "[to make] prostrate", as well as "subdue", while 魔 is "demon", and 洞 is "cave". To a typical wuxia audience, it would be read as "Demon-conquering cave." But as WWX explains:

只因为我经常在这儿睡觉。有魔头趴在地上睡觉的洞，可不就是伏魔洞？ "It's just because I'm often sleeping in here. A cave where a demon's lying asleep on the floor - is that not a Cave-Where-Demons-Prostrate?"

After sitting on it for nearly a year, it finally occurred to me how to translate this.

(I've posted this previously on twitter. So this might be familiar to some.)

Jiang Fengmian is an ineffective leader whose actions does not make sense within the context of their society.  Firstly, you’d need to understand what exactly is a “Clan 氏 (Shi)”. 

Prior to the Zhou Dynasty, the nobles had both a “Xing” 姓 (the modern word for surname) and a Clan “Shi” 氏.  There were several ways one could obtain a “Clan” name. (ie. hold an post, be related to the Zhou King, be of noble blood, through their job)  In the Shang/Zhou Dynasty, the surname of men were ‘Clans” 氏, and and “Xing” 姓 was surname of ladies (your mum’s heritage to be precise).

Generally the idea was that 氏 was a reflection of a societal status (wealth, riches, and military might) and 姓 was a reflection of one’s origin. (ie. which tribe they came from, their familial relations.).  It was only during the Qin Dynasty when there was a decline in the noble families that the lines between 姓氏 were blurred and now everyone’s surname is called 姓名.  (This also why the word “姓" carries a “女” (female))

So according to history, Clans were the aristocrats of their time.  It was associated with the wealth of one’s family and it was directly linked with their status within society.  In wuxia/xianxia fiction, as defined by Jin Yong, a Clan is a organisation that’s bounded by blood ties.  A father would pass his the leadership position to his son.  Even if the lead disciple was incredibly talented, he could not compete with the leader’s son for leadership to the Clan. Much like how a Kingship would be passed down to a Prince.)

Which is why my dear friends, it's important to understand the difference between a Sect and a Clan. They are not interchangeable. At all. It affects the Xiao Xingchen and Songlan storyline too.

In the context of MDZS, Wei Wuxian was raised by the Jiang Clan but he was not adopted into the immediate family.  The novel mentions that he’s the “lead disciple of the Jiang Clan,” and this is also apparent in his name because he bears the surname of his commoner father, “Wei.” 

Jiang Fengmian does something unusual - he elevates Wei Wuxian to the same status as his own son Jiang Cheng (his successor/Crown Prince of Jiang), essentially giving this said commoner the same status as that of a royal simply by the virtue that he’s the son of his deceased crush (who wasn’t even an aristocratic, of which he was interested in but she ran off with his servant).  Not only does this commoner grow up with his son, JFM also gives him the same opportunities as his son - he gives wwx his sword personally, instills the same education and ideals, treats him better arguably, allows him to mix with other aristocrats (in Cloud Recesses), and gives him money to spend like a royal. (Wwx says that JFM used to pick up the tab after so he never had to fork out money).  

This is would be considered a very strange move because from an aristocratic lineage POV, JFM had brought in competition willingly for own his son.  Although wwx couldn’t take over the Jiang Clan, he was already shown to be better than JC at most things.  Imagine an aristocrat constantly hanging around with his commoner ‘brother', of which the ‘brother' was better and stronger at whatever he did.  

Back in the MDZS time period, it was evident that a stronger person would be more respected (most of the time anyway).  It wouldn’t be surprising if the other clans noticed this too.  It also might explain why JC was constantly trying to outdo him, because it was also a matter of pride that a commoner was constantly beating him.  Ofc, wwx might not haven’t noticed it because his intentions were pure (he was also probably too young) and might have thought this was playful banter.  (and he was likely way too dense to realise this lmao) 

Hence with the introduction of wwx into his family, JFM has brought in a potential rival for his son, which could also potentially “usurp” his own lineage.  You could even say that he’s selfish because he’s done this for his deceased crush’s son.  And this is at the possible expense of his Clan and son’s future, and his relationship with his wife. 

Resource: (1) (2)

The genre standard demonic cultivation revolves around stealing qi, absorbing life energy from others, possessing others to get access to their greater cultivation abilities, and in general much more assholery than what Wei Wuxian does.

The actual term used by Wei Wuxian and most of the narration in the novel is Guǐdào; aka Ghost Cultivation. It revolves manipulating the dead, using resentful energy as a power source, and to be absolutely blunt it is a form of necromancy. It is the “redirection” option in dealing with the dead; drain away resentful energy so that you can convince the dead to finally let go and be liberated. Either by getting the justice they were denied in life or having lifted the worst of their anger and attachment so they can think clearer.

Not demonic cultivation.

The very title “Mo Dao Zu Shi” is part of the subversion element and part of setting in motion assumptions about the story for the original Chinese readers who know the genre and what the usual tropes are.

Because calling it “Gui Dao Zu Shi” would give away too much from the start of what is actually going on.

Also per MXTX, Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian are “morally perfect” and as that is the intention given by the author herself, that means nothing Wei Wuxian does with ghost cultivation has to actually harm the ghosts in a way that would be morally wrong. Like destroying them, preventing them from reincarnating, that kind of thing. He does not hurt the dead. He’s honestly shown to be more friendly with the undead; he is endlessly kind to them in fact and even gentle. Polite too and that deserve marking because Wei Wuxian ignores most manners because he generally doesn’t care. But he puts that care into how he treats the gui (undead) he commands and works with. He gives them rewards for a job well done as shown in the Yi City arc!

The one who does use ghost cultivation to hurt both the living and dead is Xue Yang who is repudiated by Wei Wuxian; “Xue Yang has to die” is what he says and that is what he helps Lan Wangji do.

(and I do genuinely mean conversation, I’d love to hear other people’s input on this, because I did just write a long-ass post about the subjectivity of interpretation in translations)

So when I started interacting with the fandom and reading people’s fics, I got really confused by the way some folks were writing dialogue for Lan Wangji; he often sounded super awkward, spoke in fragments, and sometimes exclusively in third person. To be fair, all of those are elements of his speech at various times, but like, seeing it in English-language material felt like a really heavy-handed way of rendering it in translation?

I guess when you use third person within the first three episodes of the show, it makes a pretty big impression on the audience

This is not at all intended to be a criticism of people who are 1000% writing and creating wonderful work, which is more than I can say for myself, but I want to poke and prod and tease at some linguistic nuance here.

Take a deep breath, grab a pot of tea (this’ll take more than a cup), because we’re going to take the scenic route on this one–

As someone who loves snakes, I really love Snake. Of course that also means I really love his snakes, and as someone who’s always been kind of a biology nerd, I thought to try my hand at classifying them. This was honestly really fun to do, and I hope some of you enjoy it!

…. says Keats.

Emily

Starting with my personal favorite, Emily is without a doubt a kingsnake, and if we want to go further she’s most likely a red milk snake. The distinctive pattern, bands of yellow and black on red, are actually a trademark of many kingsnake species. This clever disguise is used to mimic the venomous coral snake, keeping predators away.

Some fun kingsnake lore, these constrictors got their name because they hunt and consume other snakes when given the opportunity. They even hunt rattlesnakes, and have a high immunity to their venom.

Oscar

Next we have Oscar, who is most definitely a red-tailed green ratsnake. Don’t be fooled by the name, their tails are typically not red, but a light brown. Oscar was also very easy to identify, the tail and the cute blue tongue really gave it away.

Interestingly, this species is known for having quite the attitude when kept in captivity, which I find translates well into Oscar’s cheeky personality. These snakes are also exceptional hunters, waiting in treetops to strike birds in mid-flight.

Donne

My second favorite noodle, Donne, is a tiny little thing called a blind snake. At first I thought he might be a worm snake, but the length and lack of eyes made me reconsider (blind snakes have very small rudimentary eyes that are barely visible, especially from a distance). These little cuties are harmless, and indeed small enough to sit on the human ear, at only 8 cm long (they can grow up to 16 cm, but not usually).

Goethe

This dazzling noodle here is a corn snake, but not just a corn snake. Goethe is partially albino! If the striking fluorescent orange coloring and pretty pink eyes weren’t enough, he’s got a lovely pattern that certainly screams “creamsicle” to me.

Unlike Oscar, corn snakes make lovely pets with even temperaments, second only to ball pythons (though I guess I’m a little biased).  

Keats

Unlike Goethe, Keats is completely albino… which made pinpointing him a little difficult. It also doesn’t help that he has no patterning whatsoever. So, going by the shape of his face and his total size, I’d say Keats is most likely an albino gopher snake.

Wordsworth

This one was a little tricky, despite his pattern it was difficult to pinpoint what Wordsworth could possibly be. After mulling it over, I realized he’s a corn snake. Though the pattern might look a little different, it follows the same rule, and the head and pupil shape match.

A good rule of thumb, if the pupil is round and the head is small, it’s most likely a constrictor. Venomous snakes tend to have slit pupils and skinny necks (and big fat heads). This helps identifying to some degree.

Wilde

Wilde is a big ol’ snake most people know, a boa constrictor. As far as they go, he’s certainly tiny, but his face and body shape are near identical (the pear shaped head is pretty indicative of large constrictors).

Despite being fairly small for a boa, Wilde is still a hefty snake, and would probably weigh upwards of 20-27 kg. That’s a lot to hold on your shoulders! 

Webster

Unlike the rest of Snake’s snakes, Webster stands out in that he’s the only venomous one here. His pattern, bright yellow eyes, and slit pupils all indicate that he’s a copperhead. Another difference between venomous and non-venomous snakes, the fangs are only prominent in venomous snakes (non-venomous snakes don’t need to pump venom, so their teeth are smaller and hook-shaped). Despite being a pit viper, copperhead’s venom has a low potency, and the snake themselves are considered none aggressive.

Bronte

Despite searching through almost every arc and skimming through the ovas, the only panels I’ve found of Bronte were of absolutely no help… I can’t even fathom what he might be. He is… a mystery.

You are right about Emily and Oscar.

You might be right about Goethe. I was getting confused by the markings, but albino corn snake might fit better than albino python (especially with the head shape).

And I’ll accept your suggestions for Donne and Keats. I don’t have anything better for them.

I have to say I don’t agree on Wordsworth, Wilde, or Webster.

Wilde looks more like a Ball Python than a Boa Constrictor.

Webster cannot be a Copperhead, because those are endemic to eastern North America, whereas Webster specifically says he’s from Queimada Grande, which is in Brazil. That makes him a different pit viper, like a Golden Lancehead. I only know of one other snake on that island, and it’s a non-venomous one that is known for eating snails.

I just don’t know where Yana-san got those bold head markings from, as the Golden Lancehead, Jararaca, and Fer-de-Lance don’t seem to have such striking features on their heads (sides of the head sometimes, but tops no). 🤷🏻‍♀️ But she has made it very clear where Webster comes from.

Wordsworth I’m still looking for, but there has to be a better match available.

And Brontë? Idk what type of snake… but considering the namesakes, Brontë is probably a “she”.

I find it a touch chaotic, in general, also, because aren’t all of Snake’s snakes supposed to be super venomous? Most snakes noted here as looking similar of entirely non-venomous