thewhitefluffyhat

So firstly, hi anon! Super glad you like my art, that's always lovely to see. But I think there might be a tiny bit of a misunderstanding here, specifically about that post you mention of my take of the Lacenet debate. I know where you're coming from, and I apologize for not putting my stance into clearer words

But basically, my statement about those who misunderstand her story was not intended for those who are die-hard shippers of Lacenet. Yall are just having fun! That's totally fine! And I completely get the frustration and why many of you feel the need to defend yourselves from people who accuse you of pedophilia. Cause like... you're clearly not. She's an adult in your interpretation so how could you be?? I never understood that either lmao

But instead, my argument was aimed towards the small margin of the Lacenet community that harasses people who interpret Lace as being a child, or people who prefer Lace and Hornet's relationship as being platonic or familial. Cause like... it's really not any better. I get that many of them may have a strong opinion on the matter but it's genuinely no excuse to go after people's honest takes of Lace and Hornet's relationship because they're different than them, and say things on the matter that are genuinely harmful to a portion of the community

And there could be a huge chance that you may perceive this discourse to be aggressively one-sided, and I wouldn't blame you! I was on the same page! Months before, when I first touched on the subject, I was confused about the drama, and why there was so much hostility toward the "Lace is a child" interpretation, since that take affected me personally, and I saw genuine storytelling potential from that take. It wasn't until much later when I did encounter posts that... yeah, visibly stemmed from a place of harmful bias, and I understood the frustration of those who defended their ship to the core. It's just a shame that for many, those hurtful posts represent the entirety of the platonic Lace and Hornet community

But with all honesty, what my criticism was aimed towards were people who were on the extreme ends of the debate, since the kinds of arguments they would make would more often than not be rooted in ableism and misogyny, and also bias towards children as well. What I truly meant to explain was there is a powerful nuance with Lace and her story, as well as ambiguity of who she can represent, from adults who are infantilized by their caregivers to minors with abusive and neglectful parents. It's like what you said Nessi, the fandom is a diverse space full of people with all kinds of different backgrounds, and excluding a particular subgroup of people who may feel represented by a character in a certain way isn't nice or productive in any sense. People can have a particular view of a story and respect the existence of another take they may disagree with at the same time

So why I say that people on the extreme sides of the argument "miss the point" of Lace's character is because her story revolves around someone who sees herself as nonliving, undeserving of an identity outside of being a perpetual servant and extention of their creator, which is a story that can be told from the perspective of a child or an adult. There is potential of both interpretations of her character backed up by evidence from the game, so therefore people shouldn't have to resort to ableism, sexism, or ageism to prove their point

Also yeah... I've heard of the whole discord rule, kinda wack ngl. I get that they probably did that side they don't want drama in the server but, eh... I think there's a better way to do that. But discord mods will be discord mods, I should know lmfao

But yeah! Hopefully that cleared some things up. I apologize if my take before came across as unempathetic to the shippers' side since I truly intended the opposite. But hopefully my perspective is a bit clearer now -v-

it's clearly Grand Mother Silk herself talking in these monologues & this is the closest we get to hearing her deal from her own PoV.

Otherwise, she doesn't talk directly - others infer / comment on her intentions (like Hornet on the Abyssal shores (her reply is just rendered as an inhuman banshee shriek) or the Caretaker describing what she might do), almost a bit like it's handled for the Vessels. She's kept relatively mysterious to go with her abstract/eldritch design faceless spool of thread thing, which contributes to her feeling more like a presence stretching everywhere rather than any other NPC or just some gal - for example all the various strings you see throughout the map are always angled so that they point to the cradle (at least in the first 2 acts) She can't be Needolin'd either (maybe a hint that you won't be neutralizing her with what's essentially the power she is essentially the source of)

But then, by contrast, we get these very intimate, inner monologue/vision/memory-like segments rather similar to other flashback/ 'spirit journey' type segments/sequences. It might not really stand out from the random weaver corpses you get the silk skills from at the start.

However, you can tell it's Granny because of the reference to "waking", as well as how she consistently uses the Royal We (not obvious at the start - at first glance, this could be someone speaking in plural, like surviving weavers)

The fancy royal talk is, contrasts/parallels how the Pale King does that too (& how we rarely hear him talk directly either but only in flashbacks, lore tablets etc - although the reason we can't talk to him is that he's dead. Finito. An Ex Wyrm. He could presumably once have been easily talked to in his 'small' form, even if looking at him for too long burns in the eyes a bit... his offspring would've likely been immune to that anyway. )

It's interesting that she keeps up the royal talk even in what reads like dreamy/internal monologue type scenes.

Which made me think about... would the PK do that? Does he go "we" in his own head? A lot of ffs have him flip to just saying 'I' in private.

I've thought it over, and I think he would say 'we' in his head & at all times & has ever since he took his smaller form. But it means something different for him, like how his sense of self would be linked to the role & its duties. When the Kingdom went kaploof he went with it.

With Granny, it feeds more into this motif where she has a refined, elegant exterior but a beastly, domineering interior. (as per the opener poem) - she's using pretty fancy language but also showing a haughty, superior attitude. (we can look at Lace as a slightly more "earthly" example of this same trait. She's elegant, uses refined words & mocks Hornet for inelegance but she's also trying to flaunt her power/ toy with her sadistically, which isn't really working. )

Anyway, lets see what she has to say:

After liberating the Bell Beast

...Child... Weaver... ...Child... Spider... ...Arrived... At last... ...Our Silk... ...Our strength... ...Our nature... ...We feel it... ...Rise... Rise... …Come, child… Witness our waking…

Whatever she intends, she's eager for Hornet to come to her. She talks to her in a familiar manner (mimicking how a grandmother or mother would talk, calling her "child")

It's possible that she outright put/snared the bell beast there to give Hornet a means of transportation/ coming up the mountain. (the ppl from the wiki already found cut dialogue implying that, probably got the boot cause it would've given away too much too early, even if the overwhelming majority of first time players probably wouldnt have the needolin at that point)

There's been discussion about how it's unclear if she wants to absorb/body snatch Hornet (implied by talk about wanting "her silk & her shell") or more something like wanting her to be a replacement "daughter" or even considering her a worthy sucessor (as in she would've been pleased with the outcome no matter who "won" & absorbed the other because either she gets freed or something very much like her will "continue her work") - something that would have enflamed Lace' jealousy, either way. Then again Lace may be unhinged enough to see getting "eaten" as something to be jealous of.

In any case, what interests her about Hornet is that she sees her own mirror/long-lost descendant in her: "Our silk, our strength, our nature" (subtextually Hornet is effectively meeting & coming to knowterrible family of origin her own mother ran from or the terrible country her people fled/immigrated from, all blurred on this archetypical/phsychological level)

Certainly "our silk" and "our strength" could be meant/taken in the sense of "It's mine & I want it back." (& Granny absolutely is the kind of parent or creator with the attitude of "I put you into the world so I can take you out of it when I please"), but "our nature" seems to point toward a little something different, it's not something you'd steal back, she still has her nature. So at least that is distinctly about her seeing herself in Hornet or seeing Hornet as the kind of offspring she'd want, (maybe even down to the tendency to oppose/challenge her - such a mindset would also be consistent with letting her last two "descendants" that she knows of escape in the end.)

Bit of the tragedy that GMS has going that she wants offspring to be as much like herself as possible, but herself is kind of a petty, cruel, domineering bitch, so of couuuuurse her "kids" always betray her.

To see your kids as a creation in your own image (rather than their own person who grown up & talks back to you & becomes their own thing) is already an error, but even under her own "premise" she's a bit doomed. When she suceeds in making a "weak" kid that will be loyal, she can't seem to respect her & always looks down on her as inferior, longing for her "strong" (but treasonous) offspring.

Which, when you think about it, certainly shines a light on why she suddenly gets all protective of Lace even after she betrays her & relishes in the chance to humiliate & spite her & leave her thrashing impotently.

She's acting like GMS herself would, more like what she'd count as a true daughter. Kind of ironic that Lace was trying so hard to get GMS to "see her" by acting loyal, but it's when she backstabs her that she finally gets "seen". She's a backstabbing bitch just like Mommy! (Just ask the Verdanians) - it's worth noting that despite all the cruel retaliation & possible infertility curses, she never quite 'got over' the weavers.

Her actions may have been otherwise if she was still in her old position of power able to kill & replace Lace with a flick of her wrist (she's done it before, after all) but half-dead & laid low, she knew that was the last daughter she was ever going to have.

It's possible that she was saving Hornet as much as Lace in that last scene.

Interestingly turning point in the story is when Hornet acknowledles that she does in fact share some of Granny's nature, though she generally denies/disowns the part of her identity that is the "Queen"/ Leader. Though she has effectively been the Queen of Hallownest for a few hundred years, like, no one else has been running or protecting that hovel. (& if we're in the Dream No More timeline, she still IS the de-facto Queen. ) Acknowledging/accepting allows you to reflect on it & not have sneak up on you / rule you from the shadows, same themes & motifs as the last game about how true power comes from knowing & accepting yourself, & all the meditations about the relation between base instincts & higher ideals.

In the end the Caretaker says that he still does see the Queen in her, she just has higher/idealistic ambitions along with that. Which are what make true leadership different from mere dominance.

(Though it really irks me how some ppl insist on interpreting this some kind of free-will overriding intrinsically evil compulsion rather than just... a dominant personality, which is consistently shown in how both characters are written. In the OG game the protag only starts "existing" for her after they impress her with their pointy stick skills. (for all that the two truly, deeply bond afterwards)

The "error" is just going "bitch, I am going to lay YOU low & steal YOUR power!" & then it proves too much for her to handle / overwhelms her sense of self (as hinted as a possibility in the dialogue where you decline to bind Eva))

In that sense not meaningfully different same error made by the weavers & the conductors before in thinking you can defeat the Goddess of Domination (of webs, puppet strings etc.) through yet more domination. That last decision she makes before her choices are taken away, (to try stealing GMS' power as a way to defeat/neutralize her) IS a free-willed decision. Otherwise there wouldn't be any meaning to it or possible relation/meaning for us here IRL.

its also kinda symbolic for how you generally cant make a fairer world by just crushing the opposition - the void snare plan comes about as the result of building more of a real community & web of alliances rather than lone wolf toughguyism.)

Finally, we might contrast with how the PK does seem to have inspired the exact kind of great loyalty that GMS seems to have wanted in vain (& not like just in peasants who never knew him comparable to the pilgrims; But his inner circle, his wife who was his equal still remembers him with fondness & as quite impressive) - its the main thing were told about him over & over again that he "inspired great devotion". & that might also be down to the example he actually gave & lived as a very dutiful, greater-good focussed guy (probably ultilitarian to a fault, but consumately so) - his hause gets burned down by someone who was mad he got more popular or by taking in someone that may have served his self-preservation to shut the doors on.

Among the offspring that he did raise/ know about... well, the Pure Vessel was in a way his most devoted follower that he never knew about until it was too late. Took up that value of 'duty first' to a self-destructive excess. (they didn't have counterbalancing influences such as Herrah - the White Lady seemed pretty detached from them.) - still, they liked him enough & understood his values enough to want the plan to suceed (which tragically became both their undoing...), as opposed to how GMS gets her ass betrayed because she's just kinda loathsome.

Hornet meanwhile doesn't have any kind of awed, starry eyed view of him and doesn't shy away from criticizing him in some aspects, but ultimately she gets his vision & holds to those same basic values of duty, honor, obligation, utilitarian pragmatism, building a better world & moving beyond your base instincts. She's not a copy of him but that frees her up to be more & surpass him in a way, such as how she isn't crushed by her own setback in the same way. Probably the best result he could hope for after bringing her into the world in such chaotic times of decline tbh, who can hope to be perfect or control everything? He'd probably be quite proud of her if he could see her now.

In the Whiteward

...Their voices... Their song... ...Their memory... ...Bind their shells... ...Bind their souls... ...Bind them all... ...Raise them... Up... ...To devote... Eternal... ...One mind... One union... …They are ours… Bound forever…

So if the first one is the motive rant for napping Hornet, this is clearly the motive rant for the Haunting.

I think I've sufficiently discussed that before in my past writeup on the haunting, how it's similar to the Radiance in representing a forced unity, but diametrically opposed on the order vs chaos scale. The infection turns you back into a best, the haunting reduces you to a robotic worker drone.Still a tad agressive tho. both goddesses are kinda aggro.

Though it's worth noting the emotional content of each Hive Mind/ magical plague. Pavo's account of what the Haunting feels like is almost like a 4th silk heart in giving another insight into where GMS is at but focussed more on emotion. Most of all the haunting is horrible cause it's like all you indviduality is drowned out by a stronger mind, (though he also says that it's got an element of "union") but he speaks of "strange, sad memories". So there's sadness (missing the weavers?) in contrast to how the Radiance fills you with anger & makes it so you can think of only her ("Light... Bright...")... thinking is not completely intact, but intact enough to shittily do your job.

There's also some aesthetic nods to GMS being PK's Evil Counterpart / Mirror Universe Version in how he also really likes the words "devotion" and "eternal", but, he means something rather different & certainly wouldn't resort to the likes of this to accomplish it. Can you really call it 'devotion' if its forced?

As for eternity, eternity of what? Preserving something beautiful & worthwhile is great, but eternity of suffering is just hell. This is certainly a point where he also went wrong in that his attempts at preservation ultimately ended in something that was a mere stasis, but he went wrong in at least trying to hang onto something mostly worthwhile, imperfections nonwithstanding. The story there is just the tragedy of having to accept that nothing truly lasts forever in the end, whereas GMS (& some of what the citadel people did semi-independently from her while she was incapacitated) comes down to perpetuation for the sake of perpetuation to the point of citizens being forced to keep living past the point where they're begging for cessation. That's something he would clearly have rejected (which we know because Soul Master took it personally)

There's also a parallel / counterpoint to how a lot of the Pilgrim's needolin dialogues wanting to be "raised up" & the motif of "binding" as the characteristic power of GMS and the Weavers that come from her, as a way to encorporate power into yourself & take it for yourself etc. elsewhere in dialogue the lands of Pharloom are referred to as being "bound beneath" her to mean that she conquerred them (eg. in dialogue with the old rulers)

Ultimately though, It's worth noting that despite the fancy language & ethereal presentation/sequence, GMS motivation comes down to "I can do whatever I want with my kingdom/ subjects because they're mine" Her idea of being a leader is that she owns them. She's the biggest baddest alpha spider so she gets to push everyone around. She gets to mind control em if they won't obey & she's aching to get rid on what few restrictions her subjects were able to put on her power.

She doesn't have any sense of duty or obligation or values/ greater good, just pure domination.

As is always the theme with GMS and the products (both direct & indirect) of her rule: Fancy/holy exterior, bestial/barbarous core.

After defeating Lace

...Better a child spun mad... than none... ...Better a child spun frail... than none... ...Better a child spun pure... than them... ...One to wish our waking... …From our Silk… A child born loyal…

So this... this obviously mirrors the infamous abyss monologue, it's really unsubtle.

There's the 3 lines detailing the desired characteristics:

No mind to think. / Better a child spun mad... than none No will to break. / Better a child spun frail... than none. No voice to cry suffering / Better a child spun pure... than them

(On the simplest level, he wants a weapon, she wants a doll/pet.

So he sets out to make something indistructible & invincible that will never break; & she makes something weak in mind & body that will be dependent on her.

Perfect invincibility is, of course, impossible, and so is total control.

But the resulting beings do end up rather powerful, stoic, & perseverant or, conversely, childlike, unstable and fragile.

Both knew they fell short of their creator's expectations (despite being the 'masterpiece' that got chosen over other discarded creations) & may be inferred to have had some sort of complex about that or seen themselves as expendable or inferior because of it. (It's pretty explicit/unambiguous with Lace... and Hornet has "seen others make that same mistake".)

THK was chosen on account of being the strongest (managing to climb from the pit) - the King was so eager to be gone & be done with the ugly deed that he didn't notice there were other survivors, nor can we assume he would've seen much reason to check since he didn't believe them to be meaningfully alive (though THK did spot Ghost & may well have carried some juicy survivor guilt over it), on whom he effectively closed the door, & we can assume most died miserably, quite a bunch got eaten by the Nosk; Certainly standing there & doing nothing while hordes of them perish or fall is pretty much the exact diametric opposite of how a parent should act. As much as I may generally sympathize with the King, if I were Ghost coming across the plaque labelling what remained in Abyss as "refuse", I would vandalize the shit out of it, and they were certainly fully justified in knocking the old man outta his throne with enough force to crack what's left of his face. He didn't intend for this to happen (at least not to living things) but it DID.

But while we can file this somewhere between accident & negligence, Granny seems to have just deadass thrown her failed attempts in the citadel's trash & put the one remaining one in charge of guarding the trash all on their own, alone, forgotten, dirty & whithering away from lack of maintenance. The wraiths are white & stringy in contrast to the dark & blobby shades but interestingly both are described in the journal entries as "lingering will".

What distinguished Lace is that Granny managed to make her not age (being eternally trapped with the body and mind!! of a child is super duper fucked up in its own way), so it seems she was the 'newest model' & Phantom got ditched. Phantom is also probably something they called themself. Maybe only the 'perfect result' got named (this, too, deliberately rather than by accident/negligence)

GMS is coming from a wish to be a parent & intending the result to be her child, but in a twisted, fucked up, possessive way. If you actually want someone's welbeing & love them, you don't make them "mad" or "frail". And who likes to be "better than none"/ looked at as this distinctly inferior 'gud nuff' kinda existence? (or, "than them", in the weavers' shadow) Lace certainly doesn't seem to have felt loved (or even seen - her needolin dialogue in the 2nd fight is a real knife twister) even though she basically had free reign to go about pharloom and stab as many peasants as she pleases. But of course GMS doesn't rein in or discipline herself, so why'd she discipline her offspring? So she's more overly permissive/ spoiling rather than exacting while not really being emotionally "there".

The King is rather effectively giving up on parenthood (& dealing his poor wife a heavy blow there) / intending that the resulting being is not going to be his child in any meaningful way... though he still seems to have treated them as such insofar as he could square it with the plan - he wasn't crueller than strictly necessary, but, the plan is intrinsically cruel to a degree that no amount of fancy statues is going to make up for) - its an all around a far less 'realistic' circumstance, but ppl with parents who expected them to be overly responsible too quick or gave them a sense its not ok to coplain or express themselves have occasionally done some relating here. It's certainly not rare to see some that put their job over their kids.

As the end result we get someone who acts out & wrecks shit out of a desperate desire to be seen, vs someone who completely gave up on being seen or any hope at all or may even have deliberately hidden their very existence.

But while he's not getting no dad of the year mugs (to say the least), he was ultimately someone who could give his offspring a sense that they're loved & that he's capable of love, even in the worst of circumstances, in a way that GMS just wasn't (& not even grand sacrificial gestures like "I'll torch my own kingdom for you!" can fix it.), even at the height of her power. In a way that ads to the tragedy/ knife twisting, as his surviving offspring (especially Hornet & Ghost) would have to feel less of a knotty mess if he was easier to hate. You could just knock the fucker off his throne & be done with it rather than doing the part where you sit on his chair & endure a sad music that combines your leitmotifs.

one did the dishes but didnt catch the grenade, the other caught the grenade but didnt do the dishes.

ideally youd want to suffer neither grenades nor dirty dishes (Herrah comes the closest to suceeding in this out of the parental figures that we see, but of course she had to kick the bucket first, because if everythings nice & pleasant there wouldnt be a story)

The intended purpose:

You shall seal the blinding light that plagues their dreams / One to wish our waking

Now you could be cynical and say that both just wanted to fix their old messes; In effect, the offsprings right to chose their own future/path have their own life was absolutely violated. (to say the least)

Even so, we can note that GMS is very "memememe" like in the 2 other monologues (She wants out of the pinch she's in, and the reason she's incapacitated is that she got betrayed by the weavers for being a liar and a tyrant) whereas PK at least had some genuine desire to save his subjects. (& that the mess was a result of ppl actively flocking to his Kingdom because they liked him better than some other options, rather than wanting to run away from it or wrest it from his grasp cause he sucked)

The ingredients list:

Born of Wyrm and Root. Born of God and Void. / From our Silk

He was looking to create something more powerful than himself with attributes he didn't have, though certainly NOT out of the goodness of his heart, given the intended destination - he was looking to claim/ appropriate the power of the "opposite element" for himself in a way.

On the other hand, none of the other "light" gods showed much interest in the darkness beyond wanting it far away from them (the Radiance certainly seemed to loathe the 'Ancient enemy' with a special passion. She'd command her zombies to 'Kill the empty one' not, say, 'kill the usurper's spawn'), so it stands out that he wanted to understand it. Again this doesn't have anything to do with goodness but certainly with curiosity & intellectual ressourcefulness, that he'd overcome whatever instinctive revulsion he might have towards the stuff to see value in it. He probably had that same tendency as his daughter that he would look at something & immediately think "how can I understand/use this" (Ghost doesn't quite have this anywhere to the same degree, but they're also noted/described as inquisitive & a very quick learner)

As for the ingredients list for Lace... well, it's very short. It represents the kind of total control GMS wants, & she markedly doesn't see value in anything outside herself. She also distinctly wants her offspring to be inferior to herself.

She thinks what went wrong with the weavers is she made them too strong & she used the Pharlids as "base material", so she wants to create Lace "pure" despite the fairly obvious downsides. (after all, the problem couldn't possibly be her)

She probably never even considered fully godly offspring, because she'd have to get along with another higher being long enough to mate with them, & she won't tolerate no one else in her territory, systematically vanquished potential rivals. Never mind other higher beings, she won't tolerate a pair of mortal princes next door.

And finally, the mission statement for the final result:

You are the Vessel. You are the Hollow Knight. / a child born loyal

A 'Vessel' is a container for putting stuff in (in this case, angry moths.) 'Loyal' is also pretty self-explanatory.

Note the line that doesn't have a clear equivalent: "No cost too great".

Because he knows he's doing something fucked up here that goes against what morals he would normally have, but is now choosing to violate out of sheer despair. He doesn't think he just gets to do this or that it's 'okay', but he IS likely believing it will all be worth it when his plan utimately works. (of course predicated on the idea that it will... )

The one commonality is, of course, that both turn out to be super, duper wrong about their creations; The Vessels turn out to be alive after all (one hopes last dummies in the back row finally 'got' this after Ghost shows up to rescue Hornet in the act 3 ending), and, ironically, the ones we meet/ get any detail on actually stand out as extremly strong-willed individuals. And the poor, poor Hollow Knight goes on to suffer alot. [insert heartrendingly sad string orchestra]

& Lace, of course, turns out to be perfectly capable of backstabbing Mommy Dearest, because Mommy is just that much of a tyrant.

When you dominate ppl they feel humiliated, and the emotion of humiliation generates violent urges like nothing else. Even a worm will turn, as they say. And Lace is pretty far from harmless actually - one can tell that she taught herself to fight to work around her limitations. She can't take many hits, so she's super fast & very good at parrying.

Lace ends up being in many ways the logical answer/cost to GMS' antics - you stomp on people, they want to stomp you back. You enforce hyper-strict order, you get chaos in defiance (as per her 1st fight needolin she seems to have explicitly set Hornet free to "bring chaos") - though really, Granny proves quite defiant herself once brought low.

The Nuance Behind Being Called "Child"

Yes, there is dialogue referring to Lace as "child," but in most cases, it's meant to represent her status as "the Monarch's child" rather than her age, whether physical or mental. Hornet in particular uses "child" to show that Lace doesn't intimidate her, at least at the start of their interactions ("Your threats are worthless, child").

Caretaker gets quoted a lot in defense of calling Lace a child, but there's a few things a lot of people seem to forget:

The Caretaker has never actually met Lace. What he says is a comment on her behavior, which he's only observed at a distance.

The Caretaker is a liar. Act 3 is started because he leaves out key details about how the Soul Snare works, therefore lying about its safety. He's no stranger to lying and telling half-truths for his own benefit.

The part everyone quotes isn't the full quote. What the Caretaker says is "Look of a child and a mind to match, but her's been up wanderin' this Citadel longer'n most. Even in its long silence, way 'fore you came and roused its ire." This shows that Lace has been around for an incredibly long time, which means that even if she was shaped as a child, she no longer is. Regardless of whether GMS managed to keep her the same physically, it's simply not possible to stop someone from maturing mentally. As my friend Savvy put it, a lot of people arguing that Lace was created with the mental maturity of a child tend to equate "mental maturity" with lived experience. Lace doesn't exist in a stagnant state of being "born yesterday," so to speak. (paraphrased from a post by @the-valiant-valkyrie, read what she said here)

Now, Lace also has her own dialogue about this, but she doesn't call herself a child. Instead, she says she was "shaped to act as a child." The deliberate use of the phrase "act as a child" illustrates that childhood is a role Lace is meant to play, not an accurate descriptor of her as a person, and we can infer it's a role she hates based on what she says about herself in this same scene:

"Life? You're too generous! This weak, wasting existence. This was not life, just a husk shaped to act as a child. [...] Head on. Climb up, up and away. You've earned your audience with the divine. Face the holy mother who would fashion so cruel and crude a daughter as me."

This shows us that Lace is failing to fulfill this role of a perfect little girl, and as such, views herself as worthless. After all, if she can no longer be what she was made to be, then that would mean she's nothing at all.

We can also draw a parallel to Hornet—another adult character who spends a large part of the game being referred to as a child, both in term of being mistaken for one (Shakra calling her "a child barely hatched" in their first meeting) and as a denotation of her status as the child of a god (Mister Mushroom calling her "Wyrm child," or the White Lady calling her "Gendered child" and "Spider's child").

Neglect and the Disability and Abuse Allegories

In addition, Lace is described as being dependent on silk. Her full entry in the Hunter's Journal says "Much Silk would have been needed to see her sustained." This would make her dependent on her Mother, and as we know, her Mother was almost entirely absent from her life. Lace begs Grand Mother Silk to acknowledge her in her needolin dialogue ("See me cut! See me serve! See me, your knight… See me, your daughter…"), and yet her Mother never gives her so much as a passing glance until the moment of her rebellion.

All of this paints a deep parallel to disabled adults in abusive homes. They're unable to leave because they depend on their abusers, and often, their disability is used to treat them as lesser and make them easier to manipulate. In the cases of neurodivergent people especially, people tend to constantly hover over or police their actions, simply because they're neurodivergent. Neurotypical people are held accountable for their actions when they make poor decisions, but of a neurodivergent person makes a poor decision, suddenly "they weren't thinking straight" or "they don't know any better." (As a neurodivergent adult, I've had both of these used against me.)

All of this is to say, disabled adults (especially neurodivergent adults) in abusive homes are deprived of agency because they're seen as "lesser" for something completely out of their control.

What We Hear vs. What We See

Another thing I wanna bring up is that the Hollow Knight series is very heavy on show, don't tell storytelling, especially in the sense that what we're told is often different from what we're shown.

Going into Hollow Knight completely blind, you're shown early on that the titular Hollow Knight is not quite what you're told it is later. The City of Tears memorial says that the Hollow Knight allowed Hallownest to stand eternal, but you've clearly seen that the kingdom is crumbling. The Abyss memory scene tells you that the Pure Vessel had no emotion to allow Radiance back out of the seal, but you can see that the Infection has ravaged the land worse than ever before (and the Path of Pain cutscene outright shows us that the Hollow Knight loved its father, meaning the plan was doomed to fail from the beginning).

In many ways, it's the same with Lace. You're told by the Caretaker she was made to be a child, and you're also told by Lace that she was made to act like a child, but you're never shown that she's a child. Instead, you're shown that Lace resents the role she's made to play, and that she wants to be seen for more than what she was created to be.

Becoming What You're Made To Be vs. Choosing Your Own Path

The bad endings in both Hollow Knight games involve following the path you're told to.

In Hollow Knight, the bad endings involve Ghost taking the place of the Hollow Knight, perpetuating the cycle of temporarily sealing Radiance—an action which we know will inevitably fail because there is no true "pure vessel."

In Silksong, the bad endings involve Hornet either fulfilling the desires of the Weavers and taking the place of Grand Mother Silk in Weaver Queen, or being consumed by a parasite and birthing a far worse threat in Twisted Child.

The good endings of both games involve choosing another path. Ghost can only defeat Radiance by embracing its true nature, defying the idea that it's meant to contain a threat alone, and instead destroying it with the help of its siblings (Hornet and Hollow in Dream No More and all of the Siblings in both Godmaster endings). Hornet can only free Pharloom by choosing to defy the desires of those around her and forging her own path.

Lace, too, breaks free from the role she's told to fill! By directly rebelling against Grand Mother Silk, not only does she finally make herself seen, she definitively refuses the role of "subservient and loyal child" that she's been forced to occupy for untold centuries!

The series as a whole places a strong emphasis on the idea that what you're told to be isn't your only option. Nobody's locked into being one thing forever. Even if the odds are stacked against you, you can choose your own fate.

I think the thesis statement of the series is best illustrated by Herrah's dialogue in the Red Memory:

Anyways, as you might know, I'm pretty lax on people's takes of Lace and her probable age since I heavily believe her nuance benefits her story, and I also have strong opinions of the thematic implications of both interpretations. I can try to list off everything here and as well as address the arguments you've made(and hopefully organize it nearly as nicely as you did lmao)

The Nuance of "Child" with Lace's Story

Now there is absolutely a ton of cases where Lace is addressed as a child, from Hornet, to the Caretaker, to her mother, to Lace herself, to even a random ass pilgrim in the Citadel. Even moreso than the actual children in the game. This overuse of the term does leave a lot to be discussed, however, whether this descriptor is accurate or serves as an opening to questioning or debate

So first, let's address the Caretaker.

1. Observations

It's not confirmed how long bro has been chilling in the Citadel, or even if he has been around before or after Lace was(likely the former considering he was able to identify a weaver since they've long since departed, along with him recognizing the Citadel as quiet) but he has indeed kept a far distance from her throughout the time he's studied her it seems, and it's likely that they never interacted directly. That pretty much seems reason enough to determine that Caretaker's information of Lace is less than reliable

However, an interesting counterpoint to this is how he interacts with Hornet. Throughout their conversations, Hornet has done little to disclose information of her nature and backstory to the Caretaker, but he, as subtly implied during his introduction, seemed to truly know exactly who she was. That she's ancient, that she's partially weaver, that she's related to another monarch, and the inner turmoil that ails her about her desire vs the instincts that claw at her from both sides of her genes.

And this was all from talking to this random traveler for like 5 minutes consecutively, let alone observing someone from a distance for decades, possibly centuries. This does bring more context for the introspection of the validity of Caretaker's studies, but it's honestly up for debate at this point

2. his Treacherous Traitorous ass

Now it's no secret Caretaker's not the most honest dude. Bro's a bit of a troller, I mean the implications of the dialogue in his intro spoke enough–

"Oh, so you ask funny questions as well as cutting bells free, eh? You certainly ain't a pilgrim, but you're clearly not of the Choir either. No! I know exactly what you are..."

...

"A bell-ringing lout! A weirdo!"

Oooh sneaky stinker

But exaggeration of this subject's title aside, the most Caretaker has plainly done in terms of dishonesty is withhold information from Hornet of the trap he was tryna set. Granted, the information in question was extremely crucial and shifted the state of things entirely, and Hornet possibly could have benefitted from the info. But perhaps Hornet wouldn't have agreed to it then. Maybe he knows that. Maybe that's why he kept his mouth shut

It's vital to remember neither Caretaker nor the other shamans are evil; they did what they did as an attempt to help, and then fled and hid when it didn't work out. They pulled a PK if you will lol

(Also I'd like to briefly mention that I'm surprised Hornet didn't already know that the trap Caretaker set was bound to the void. I mean she evidently didn't, as shown by her outrage when she confronts them, but she apparently aided in its construction, and she was easily able to clock Caretaker as a shaman long before his reveal in Act 3. Plus she knows a void spell when she sees one, as seen with her interaction with Sula)

But anyways, what I'm saying is that Caretaker wouldn't gain anything from fibbing about Lace's age, so though it's very possible that he was misinformed from his studies, it's unlikely that he would lie about this kind of thing intentionally

3. the Substance Behind his Dialogue

“One to keep far from she was, least for us mortal sorts. Look of a child and a mind to match, but her's been up wanderin' this Citadel longer'n most. Even in its long silence, way 'fore you came and roused its ire.”

Dammit Caretaker you broke the internet. Now let's talk about this, specifically the part addressing the probable timeline of Lace's history

The long silence he mentions is likely referring to the Haunting, taking place after the Golden Age of the Citadel, which lasts for several generations according to Hornet's conversation with the Seamstress after she sees the Citadel for the first time. It's also likely the time period of Lace's creation, since GMS was confirmed to be semi-conscious by then and would have enough power to spin a lifeform, let alone puppeteer several corpses at once. The timing isn't specific however, being that Hornet's arrival to the Citadel and its corpses’ reawakening took place like… 30 minutes before they had this conversation, so there's a lot to be debated here

He says that Lace has been wandering the Citadel longer than most. Who is “most” in this case? The Pilgrims? Most of em don't last 5 minutes before getting haunted or receiving impromptu acupuncture from Lace's pin. Does he speak of the Choirbugs? Did they join the Citadel recently to involuntarily offer themselves as fresh puppets, or do only their aged corpses remain from an era long forgotten? It's not clear. Does he mean the Conductors? The Vaultkeepers? The Architects? Not likely, but eh, I've seen some theories based on that. Definitely not the Weavers, their betrayal and subsequent departure is what contributed to the reasoning behind her existence in the first place.

I like the argument you and Savvy put about lived experience, and how that inevitably affects mental maturity to a degree with physical age, and though there are instances in a similar sense with characters from other media such as Peter Pan, it's definitely something to keep in mind in discussions like this. However if you're bold, you could technically attempt to argue the longevity of Lace's lifespan thus far. You could say that Phantom and Lace's spun-days were sequential, with Lace being a recent replacement after Phantom aged out.

Me though, I like the interpretation of Lace being old, and Phantom's silk fraying out from neglect seems more likely, with the whole silk sustenance thing and all. That's why I don't personally interpret Lace as a child in the literal sense, but with what I've mentioned above, it's not a take made out of bad faith at all

But anyways I'm rambling– that was just one character, we haven't even touched upon the others

Let's see uhh, there's that random ass pilgrim I mentioned before, who said they've heard the laugh of a child from above. Their input may well be damning evidence pointing to Lace's age, but you could also argue that they're confused since they've likely never seen her up close and her voice is high-pitched

There's Lace herself, who describes herself as a child at times in a relatively neutral sense, even in her mind, but it could be referring to her relationship she has with her mother, or at least the relationship that she was created to have, however artificial it may be. The only exception to this is when she describes herself as a “husk made to act like a child”, which is very interesting considering the wide potential of what that thought process can be associated with. From a surface point it could seem like she's denying her childishness outright or revealing it to be an act, but looking at it further it could also be representative of vulnerable people who diminish their worth for not keeping up with their high, sometimes impossible expectations, which is something that both children and adults who are disabled and/or require extra assistance also struggle with.

There's also GMS, but uhh… hm… yeah obviously lmao

And then ofc there's her correlation with Hornet, who is also called a child by several npcs, despite clarifying clearly that she isn't one. What's interesting though is taking into account which characters do so and for what reasons.

There's the White Lady, who, like– practically raised her in the palace

There's Mister Mushroom, who's more ambiguous due to their unclear lore but it's implied at the very least that he's ancient, due to his talks of meandered journeys throughout previous wonders and kingdoms before Hallownest. It's stated that ol’ Herald and Hornet have met before, and he might have even witnessed the contract behind her birth

There's GMS… well again, it's GMS lmfao

The only exception from this pattern appears to be Shakra, who mistakes Hornet as a child– no, a BABY who already wields a weapon, and her funny lil nickname for her doesn't change until she learns her real name(from other bugs. Dammit Hornet–)

But hopefully I've done okay so far with explaining how the interpretation of Lace's age based on the evidence that the text provides is, though simple, not baseless. But I'll get more into that later

The Wide Spectrum of her Symbolism and Representation

I already blabbered for WAY too long on the first part so I'll try to sum this up best I can–

Basically, from what I've gathered from the game, Lace's story seems to be very much based on self-worth, and the consequences of basing your entire existence around someone else's by necessity, and the emptiness– and also guilt– of being unable to fulfill that purpose, even if it's by no fault of your own.

Now. You've already done a flawless job at explaining the story from the perspective of an adult, and the validity of the perception of her character as such. I also love the symbolism of Lace's need for silk-sustenance as a disability! As a fellow grown-yet-still-dependant member of society I appreciate your service comrade

So therefore I'd like to move onto the other side of the spectrum of Lace's representation– kids, along with people who've had experiences/emotions relating to Lace's predicament. See, children, like adults with disabilities/neurodivergence, are an incredibly oppressed group of people in society, who often have their emotions ignored/dismissed as unimportant or inconvenient, and are set to unrealistically high standards to “make up” for their dependence.

The emotions that Lace experiences can very much be reminiscent of a child who has attempted to adjust in an environment where love and attention is conditional, and the realization is just beginning to settle in that the conditions in question were never hers to control to begin with. This naturally includes the subsequent anger and jealousy and insanity that follows.

It should also be clarified that this of course wouldn't diminish the abuse dished out by GMS or the toll that it has taken on her daughter, not by a long shot. Children can be infantilized, degraded, and objectified, and it happens on a regular basis. And it can really take a toll on your mental psyche since at that point you're ashamed of the emotions you feel afterwards but aren't supposed to, and are unsure where to direct that internal outrage and injustice towards besides your caregivers– which again, isn't an option. This should go without saying that children are not blemishless loyal dolls or hapless bundles of emotion. They're real people with autonomy and morality and dignity, and can suffer greatly if those aspects of their character are not allowed to display themselves, just like with adults.

Now of course, this probable theme of Lace hits less in the case of her being an adult, as does the theme of escaping the role of a child with her being a child herself, and this is where the conflict takes place. Choosing one interpretation may diminish the thematic substance behind the other, which could cause someone to go out of their way to invalidate the first interpretation in question, and uhh yeah you get the gist. Bullshittery commences. Not to mention the select few dingleberries who use the drama as an excuse to argue and inconvenience somebody's day. It's why I stick firmly to the opinion that Lace's nuance serves as as beneficiary to her story due to the wide spectrum of people who she can represent, and that it would be best to remain open to others’ interpretations even if we don't agree with them.

Anyways, sit tight cause this next part is interesting

The Parallels of Hollow and Lace

Now this is something that I've been wanting to discuss for a while, and have even set up a wip for it in my tumblr drafts! But uhhh remember that one glitch where all your drafts got instantaneously uploaded to your blog? Yeah. That happened. Haven't had motivation to write about it since, but now I will, since I think it's relevant and kinda cool

Anyways, I agree heavily with the take that Lace is a parallel to the Hollow Knight from the original game. However, I also think that for what “hollow” represents in the original game, there is a parallel in Silksong that works just a bit better than “child”.

Like for instance let's look back at the first game, and acknowledge what PK wanted in a vessel. He wanted a knight, yes, he wanted someone strong. Hence why he had expected his vessel of choice to crawl out of the abyss by themselves and selected the first one that finally met his standards. Of course there's the other aspect of the vessel we know he wanted. The condition Hollow wasn't able to meet because of their personhood. As stated by the dialogue here-

“No cost too great.

No mind to think.

No will to break.

No voice to cry suffering.

Born of God and Void.

You shall seal the blinding light that plagues their dreams.

You are the Vessel.

You are the Hollow Knight.”

Now cut back to Lace. GMS wanted a child, yes, she wanted someone who could reinforce her title as a Mother. But the aspect that would make Lace different from all the others, as shown here-

“...Better a child spun mad... than none...

...Better a child spun frail... than none...

...Better a child spun pure... than them...

...One to wish our waking...

...From our Silk... A child born loyal…”

There it is. “Loyal”. That's the parallel term we're looking for. Cause GMS expected pure, unending loyalty without providing a sliver of it herself as she went out of her way to seek for the Weavers while her daughter craved and served tirelessly for affection she was never meant to receive. It was only a matter of time before Lace cracked under the circumstances, no matter what interpretation of her you stick with.

And if you pay attention, the correlation is even there in the opening cutscenes! Including the scene with the Radiance usurping Hollow's mind, confirming their personhood within

And the scene with Lace freeing Hornet from her cage, which was a rebellion on her part, perhaps her first major one

Kinda cool right? It's why I think Hollow and Lace work fine as parallels under any interpretation of Lace or the situation that she was in

Anyways uh, for this next part, I'm gonna get a little bit personal. I usually prefer to keep real life stuff out of analyzing video games as much as I can, but hopefully this will help with understanding my perspective somewhat

The Wider Impact of her Story

Now funnily enough, I'm an adult, and I have a disorder and am dependent on care, along with the fact that I commonly get mistaken as a teenager, as do many people who sympathize with Lace's plight. However, at first I thought that Lace was a child, and yet her story has impacted me so profoundly, since her experience was extremely reminiscent of that I've had in childhood.

See uh… I was put in a pretty weird spot. To summarize, I've got one parent, and the partners they've had throughout the years were ✨️ass✨️, so they were heavily dependent on me for emotional comfort. Therefore, I felt obligated to give it, and pretty much bankrupted myself emotionally to support them. But no matter what, it never seemed to be enough, since as a child, I couldn't make THEIR problems disappear. When I played Silksong for the first time, the tragedy behind the reasoning of Lace's creation, that she was made for a specific purpose and expected compensation for fulfilling that purpose that she would never receive under her terms, is what stood out to me most.

It's why I was initially confused by the backlash, and questioned why Lace's story couldn't be interpretive in that sense. Even later, when her association with childhood shifted from literal to symbolic, I still found myself impacted by her story, specifically the plausible outline of the effect that emotional abuse and negligence has on children, whose bodies grow up but their minds lag behind.

That's because I'm one of those people. I'm stunted. A late bloomer, if you will. Though I'm articulate and verbally cognitive, there are aspects of my emotional intelligence that have remained stagnant since childhood, and I experience emotions related to certain situations at legal drinking age most people experience when they're like 13. I don't mean that as an insult to myself, it's just the way I am, and discovering and acknowledging that has helped me process things and therefore aided me in my recovery from the emotional(and also verbal and semi-physical yikes) abuse that caused this. This also helped me with getting a decent grasp on Lace's character and interpret her as someone who's coped poorly(yet to the best of her ability) to the situation she was in by stacking the tiny shreds of her confidence she had left atop a foundation supported by the fighting prowess she'd mastered over generations and decorated with a cocky, giggly villainess demeanor

That's why uhh… all the talk of everyone with an interpretation of her being a child or stunted emotionally apparently all having come from a place of ignorance and bigotry?

… Yeah. That stung. And it's made me reevaluate myself and my recovery for a while. Was I truly a bigoted dumbass for acknowledging myself the way I did, and developing an interpretation of a fictional story semi-based on my own experiences? This right here is what I've been trying to warn people about, but listeners are few and far between, since anyone who interprets the story that way holds a reputation to many others of being lesbophobic misogynistic assholes

… who do exist. I know that now. Before I wasn't aware of the extent of the actual harassment of Lacenet shippers and whatnot, and thought people were highkey being dramatic about it. I know better now. I've witnessed some ✨️buffoons✨️ in action for myself and I've come to completely understand people's defensiveness about that and it's a shame that a small portion feel the need to retort by saying stuff that's genuinely harmful to a part of the community(unknowingly likely, I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt)

But back to Lace herself, this is pretty much why I'm exceptionally uncomfortable with “child” being used as an obstacle to her character development or a tool of insult or degradation. You probably noticed that I haven't mentioned Hornet's dialogue addressing her directly and you're probably seeing where I'm going with this. No shade to anyone that goes by that rendition of her dialogue of course, but I just much prefer her nickname of "child" for Lace to be a reaffirmation of her personhood rather than a something she would use to insult or intimidate her, since to me the appeal of their dynamic stems from the fact that Hornet treats Lace as a person instead of a monster or a convenient tool, and she's likely one of the only ones to do so.

And yeah, to a degree, I also feel somewhat uncomfortable too from the suggestion that Lace can only forever be a child JUST because that's what she was made to be, rather than childish aspects of her showing themselves as the result of her mother's extensive abuse, but you've already done a fantabulous job at explaining the flaw behind that logic Blaze, so I don't think I gotta go into that too much

Oh yeah, one more thing. Immaturity is a subject brought up a lot in these kinds of discussions, but eh honestly I'm gonna dismiss that here. The way bugs behave in the Hollow Knight franchise doesn't necessarily reflect on their age, and it's not really a good argument to make in favor of or against the take of Lace being a child(especially since either way in her case, her feelings are pretty much entirely understandable and justified)