#val-post

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A little Chara compilation from Day 2 of the 10th Anniversary Stream.

+ bonus blast from the past by Temmie, almost ten years ago now

I can't stress enough how cool Igon is as a character, as well as his little sideplot... however, he was also, surprisingly enough, the one missing piece I needed to make a final conclusion on the body/soul shenanigans that happen in this game. In hindsight, it was obvious, but it's good to have it spelled out so clearly.

Unlike his body, Igon's soul has both of his legs intact and can help us with the fight against Bayle. Him mentioning that his soul was still on top of Jagged Peak, and it looking like the many astral projections/phantom apparitions we have seen thus far, were incredibly good pieces of the wider puzzle. But it got me thinking about our previous encounters with similar concepts...

A little clarification

I do want to say that not all instances of invasions and summoning involve projecting one's soul. The game makes it kinda obvious when it's the case and when it's not, and I think I've highlighted every instance where it's relevant. Every other encounter can probably be taken the same way as the encounters in the Dark Souls trilogy.

Understanding the concept

The first characters I thought about were Sellen and the Dung Eater, for obvious reasons. They are the ones who display this behavior just as transparently as Igon does, but without explicitly mentioning what they are doing or that it's even happening. We can piece it together through context clues though.

Let's start with Sellen.

We are able to meet her in two different locations, coexisting at the same time. Their bodies are completely identical, but one is imprisoned in the Witchbane Ruins and the other seems to be doing just fine at the Waypoint Ruins, inexplicably. (I must admit, when the game was new I thought her quest had glitched or something lol.)

By progressing her questline further, we are informed by Sellen herself that the body in Witchbane Ruins is indeed her real one, so who are we talking to exactly? For a while, my friends and I have used the term "astral projection" to describe what was happening. For all intents and purposes, it's a very correct way to see it, but we incorrectly thought that what was being projected was simply her mind... with Igon's words though, we might have confirmation that what we are conversing with is Sellen's very soul, which "left" her imprisoned body to pursue her goals.

When we do meet that imprisoned body before Sellen tells us to get her Primal Glintstone (which is where Sorcerers' souls reside, unlike most beings in the Lands Between), she will appear dazed, incoherent, and won't recognize us, either completely unaware of our existence or even taking us for one of the "frothing degenerates" that sealed her down there. When we are there as per her request, however, she will become much more verbose and aware, which I take to mean Sellen's soul reunited with her body to make sure the process would go smoothly.

(The Sellen on the right has way more to say but you get the gist of it.)

And what's left behind after the fact isn't a lifeless body either, but one that is still alive, with her faculties intact. Sellen's body still holds some part of herself, even without her soul... keep this in mind.

Moving on to the Dung Eater.

The first time anyone will meet him in-game is in the Roundtable Hold, appearing as a red spirit after setting foot into Altus. He seems to actually be well-spoken enough, despite what you'd expect from someone like him. It isn't until you get a Seedbed Curse that he'll tell you to go look for his real body, and the difference between him and what we find imprisoned is quite stark.

The man is seen bashing his head on the wall repeatedly, muttering a mantra of sorts to himself, unaware of his surroundings to the point he won't notice he is freed until he is told, even should we speak to him from within his cell. Despite this, he seems to be well aware of what he has to do, his goal and everything pertaining to it. He isn't even half as eloquent as his spirit, but it's clear he is of at least a similar mind. Like with Sellen's body, he remembers very specific things and reacts accordingly.

These two seem to set a pretty consistent standard: The soul is much more eloquent and aware, capable of everything a normal person should be capable of, yet pretty intangible... meanwhile the bodies are alive, still hold part of the person's mind, but seem to be much less aware, much more disoriented and incoherent. And Igon, yet again, follows a similar pattern.

When we see him in Gravesite Plains, he is incoherently rambling. He doesn't even seem to notice us or pay us any mind, and displays some wild mood swings, either cursing Bayle and promising his death, or begging him to spare him and not hurt him anymore.

This is in stark contrast to when he is near Jagged Peak. He observes us hunting, he is fully capable of speech and requests that we aid him in his vengeance. I believe this change in demeanor is happening because he is standing closer to where his soul has remained.

This tells us that the soul is needed for a body to be more complex and aware. It's the holder of most of the person's identity, but the body holds an imprint of it too due to its mind, so even if the two sides are separate it will act, think and behave a certain way, albeit much simpler in scope. In a way, both parts are alive simultaneously, which I guess is why Destined Death can target only one of them at a time as well. Every body has its own consciousness, regardless of whether the soul leaves it. This is also worth remembering.

This means that when Sellen is killed by Jarren right after we retrieve her soul, she DID die. Her body is conscious if a bit unfocused, she is still her own individual life. It's honestly kind of fucked up if you stop and really think about it...

Let's move on to another deeply relevant topic.

Sharing a Soul

We do find another instance of the soul making the body more lucid and aware than it is without it, and that comes in the form of Darian and Devin, twins who share soul despite having two different bodies.

The most interesting part of this sharing of the soul is that one of them, Darian, is completely well-spoken, aware of his surroundings, and more than capable of traveling and holding his own in a fight... meanwhile, Devin appears to be the opposite.

This, of course, changes whenever his brother is killed, whenever he gets hold of their armor. He will be much more eloquent (some people will say to a fault lol), and will recognize whoever the perpetrator of Darian's murder is, either Fia or our Tarnished.

So it seems like the twins' lucidity depends on whoever holds the soul in the moment. So, while Darian is active, Devin is drained of energy and in a simpler state of mind. However, it must be pointed out that if we are the perpetrators of his brother's murder, he will take the initiative to retrieve his equipment for his revenge, but when it's Fia, he is utterly petrified, and we are the ones who must deliver his equipment. Perhaps the Death Blight has something to do with it, preventing Darian's soul from simply travelling back to his brother. Worse yet, it might be that most of their soul has been destroyed by it, but some of it remained on their armor, which is how Devin is able to get his revenge, and why he seemingly dies/kills himself right after their quest is complete.

I think there is a second pair who experienced the same fate as the D twins: Irina and Hyetta.

These two women look absolutely identical, even more so than Darian and Devin, surprisingly enough. Many are convinced that Hyetta is simply the reanimated corpse of the maiden puppeted by an entity like Shabriri, if not Shabrir himself, due to the fact that it takes Irina's death to make her appear in Liurnia. However, this cannot be the case, as Irina's body is still found at the side of the road when Hyetta is active, which is unlike what happens when Shabriri appears in the Mountaintops of the Giants.

My friend @katyspersonal once made a post about the possibility I am presenting here [x], pointing out how Darian and Devin embody two different elements (gold and silver), and how Irina and Hyetta might be the same, only differing in the guidance they can see as Finger Maidens (Two and Three Fingers respectively).

And yes, Irina is herself a Finger Maiden, both of them wear their attire minus headwear in exchange for wraps to cover their blind eyes (though Irina lacks the robe's cape as well).

In that case, the reason why Hyetta can only appear when Irina dies is the same reason why we can only see a fully functioning Devin when Darian is dead. Their shared soul might have simply returned to her.

One last point is that, like the D twins, the two girls share their voice actress, implying a definitive connection and not just model reuse...

So, we have established that the soul and body are separate in more than just vague terms, and that it seems like the former holds more importance than its physical counterpart, at least in stimulating their mental faculties. This is all true, to an extent...

Bodies themselves DO have some influence on the soul that inhabits it, as the mind is something contained within them. After all, we can see it with two bodies sharing a soul. Despite being functionally the same people, these characters have different goals and personalities. The idea is also supported by the practice of having souls return to the Erdtree so they may be reborn as new individuals. If souls were all that made up unique beings, then the same people with the same memories would be reborn again and again, but it doesn't seem to be the implication of what happens with them. Souls are shaped by their bodies just as much as bodies are affected by souls.

Due to their ethereal nature, though, souls persist more than bodies do in more cases than not. It seems to be by design, which is why they are the ones who linger on more often than not.

The Souls who persist

In the Land of Shadow, we can find four mausoleums at the four corners of the map, each containing a warrior who originates from beyond the region. These resting places are, however, guarded by the souls of these very warriors, still tied to them even after death.

So souls can linger at least near their bodies, but this is not always the case. There are a few instances of souls who go beyond simply haunting their resting place, and for different reasons than just to stop any potential graverobber.

We have two prominent instances of souls living past their bodies and minds, but still carrying out their will as they did in life. The first one is with Mad Tongue Alberich.

The maddened sorcerer invades us in the Roundtable Hold should we jump down into his domain, with no regard for the "Hold's serenity" as the Dung Eater puts it. However, in the Fortified Manor, the physical location that the Roundtable was modeled after, we can find the heretic's remains and loot his entire set from it.

This happens whether we killed his apparition or not, which implies he has been dead for a while, but that his soul still lingers in the place he once served, haunting the location and killing those foolish enough to cross him for no other reason than to get back at the jeering tongues that drove him mad.

Interestingly enough, the same happens with Elemer of the Briar.

His real body resides in the Shaded Castle, which he conquered during his failed execution. And there, in the comfort of the stolen castle, he could project his soul across the Lands Between to gather Bell Bearings, earning him the title of Bell Bearing Hunter.

And we know this isn't a group of similarly-equipped people, as all of Elemer's equipment relates to him and him alone. The greatsword he wields is especially damning, as it was the storied sword of the Marais family, the castellans of the fort he currently occupies.

However, even should the real Elemer fall to the Tarnished, his spirit seems to live on as the Bell Bearing Hunter, still tormenting merchants and instructors alike. They will appear at each of their locations and will do so until they are destroyed individually, which is unlike the Margit apparitions, who cease to be when Morgott is slain.

This is why I believe he is much like Alberich in this regard. A soul kept tethered to the world even past the death of its own body, still seeking what it sought in life. It's quite scary to think that someone like Elemer isn't even gone for good after death.

The curious case of Vyke

Vyke is the oddest encounter of the bunch, as he appears in two distinct moments in two distinct states. The earliest we can meet him is in Liurnia with the title of Festering Fingerprint, guarding the Church of Inhibition, where his maiden passed away.

In this state, Vyke uses many Frenzy Incantations, leaning into his nature as a contender for the title of Lord of Frenzied Flame.

However, we can later meet him in the Mountaintops of the Giants, trapped in an Evergaol. Inside, he is a completely different fight than he was in Liurnia, renouncing any form of Frenzied Flame and instead only using Dragon Cult Incantations.

Despite his weapon and armor clearly showing the effects of the Three Fingers and its touch, Vyke himself does not reflect this at all. Even his title of Roundtable Knight seems to be in contrast to his current state, so what's going on?

I believe this is an instance of body and soul separating.

It seems that after having already made the mistake of absorbing the Frenzied Flame from the Three Fingers, Vyke realized the folly of his actions, and either locked himself up or let himself get captured and sealed away. However, he left behind his soul, so that he could still guard his maiden, the one he had done all of this for to begin with. This caused a split between Vyke's soul, now mired in madness, and Vyke's body, which still instinctively held onto his past as a member of the Dragon Cult and of the Roundtable Hold.

I guess we can posit that while the body is the one that is physically affected by the yellow flame, what holds it within might be the host's very soul. However, both parts are needed to make a full Lord of Frenzied Flame, so this was still enough to stall the end of the world. After all, the worshipers of the Flame don't have him in high regard, despite his soul literally dwelling a few steps from the Frenzied Village. Vyke exists split and will stay that way for the good of the world and to satisfy his mad desire of staying by his maiden's side...

Bodies living without a Soul

While the soul persisting after death seems to be intended, the body doing so appears to be unprecedented and unnatural. This is the reason why Those Who Live in Death are scorned and viewed as abominations. Bodies should not persist, yet they can...

As we have seen, souls can ditch their own bodies for some time, and those can still live and are still the same individual they always are, just simplified and more instinctual... however, unlike Those Who Live in Death, there is still a soul that will return to them! For the unlucky undead, though, no such thing will ever happen; their faculties can never be restored. While the dynamic is the same, the context is different, which is why something is considered abominable while the other is not... then again, the D twins were largely scorned and only found acceptance with the Golden Order, so people might simply view the concept as abhorrent regardless.

Their minds being stuck to a more instinctual plane might also explain why they always attack on sight, as most of them are implied to be casualties of the Shattering. The most common undead are the Skeletal Militiamen, their name suggesting they were civilians rising to the occasion during a state of emergency, which fits the Shattering like a glove. There are also bandits who were common during the conflict, executioners who murdered what remained of defeated armies, and farmers who were forced into the fight and had to turn their farming tools into weapons of war.

Sun Realm Knights and Gravekeepers don't have to be necessarily tied to the Shattering, but the former's aggression is easily explainable with the fact they clearly perished during a war, while the latter don't exactly attack by physical means unless you get too close to them, and instead prefer to use Ghostflame spells.

These types of undead are still the same individuals they were in life... this is, of course, pretty big when it comes to analyzing Godwyn.

His lack of agency is often discussed, but if what Igon and everyone else can teach us can be applied to him as well, it paints quite the intriguing picture, because whatever will there is to glean from him now might genuinely be his own, if only in a warped and simplified way. Maybe Godwyn truly was the type to mourn those who are scorned, or perhaps it is simply because he views Those Who Live in Death as undeserving of their fate, much like him, and wishes to elevate them and give their kind a second chance at life.

The transferring of Souls

We can't talk about Godwyn without talking about Ranni too.

She killed only her body, living on as a soul. This is not actually that unique, as we have seen already; it is a normal state of existence. Where she differs, however, is her decision to dwell within puppets and dolls that she has complete control over, and how that allows her to be more than just a ghost stuck in a limited set of locations to haunt. It does seem like maintaining this state takes a toll on her since she has to rest more often than not, and she isn't fully able to inhabit it, as some of her original ghostly face can be seen sticking out from her body... regardless, Ranni has successfully gone beyond her flesh and found a new host. And unlike the body she was born with, her vessels will stop living whenever she leaves them, having no inherent life of their own. I guess she is assuring there are no loose ends, even should she need to leave anything behind. Smart.

She is not the only one who transfers her soul to a different host body, though the other two are quite... invasive about it.

Shabriri and Gowry linger without their own bodies, needing to snatch those of others, usually those within their field of influence. For Shabriri, we know for sure that this man died, as he was executed for the crime of slander, which is how the sickness that would define Frenzy in Marika's age developed from within his empty eye sockets.

As such, he can be nothing BUT a soul, still lingering somehow. It's especially interesting, as the Frenzied Flame is said to melt souls, so he somehow manages to avoid this fate and still uses the yellow flame to his personal advantage. You can't say he isn't resourceful...

Gowry doesn't have this spelled out for him, but there's a possibility that his real body is located in Stillwater Cave, a place found at the southern end of Liurnia's lake, full of poisonous pools, Rot Disciples and a single Cleanrot Knight standing guard. Inside, drenched in a pool of murky poison, we can find a corpse holding the Sage set, the same clothes worn by Gowry.

Regardless, both men persist beyond their own physical bodies, finding suitable hosts among those consumed by despair for Shabriri, and the Kindred of Rot for Gowry. They are pesky bodysnatchers who are probably only able to do what they do because of the forces they align with.

And since most of their victims are either dead, utterly broken or simple-minded, their will is easily capable of overpowering them without the fear of having to contend with the body's personality, at least as far as we can confirm... this is unlike the soul shared by the D twins moving from one brother to the next.

Technically speaking, Sellen herself is on the same boat. Transferring her Primal Glintstone inside the body of the lookalike puppet will have her effectively take control of the new host completely. It's likely that she doesn't conflict with the original owner of the body due to her transformation into a puppet rendering her fully catatonic.

What Nightreign adds to the conversation

I did not expect Nightreign to put more things worth talking about for this topic, but it did, and I'm glad for its additions.

The first one I'll touch upon is Revenant.

She seems to have originated from Chloe Northerncroft's soul, who desired to live, affecting her life-sized doll Daphne after her murder. Some life seems to have dwelled within her before that moment too, as she reaches for the young lady during her gruesome death. Revenant's own memories are somewhat jumbled, but she ends up coming to the conclusion that she is a unique being that was never human; neither Daphne nor Chloe, simply being the Revenant. After all, she couldn't JUST be Chloe, otherwise we'd have something more akin to Ranni, and Revenant would have no life of her own, just like the former Lunar Princess' many dolls and puppets.

It's possible that she gained a soul of her own too, or at least some sort of equivalent. She is, for sure, more complex than most of the bodies without souls that we have observed so far, so it wouldn't be too outlandish. Golems and marionettes also appear capable of gaining greater consciousness and even spiritual energy of some kind, evidenced by the fact that there are several Spirit Ashes containing the spiritual remains of various automatons.

Revenant is also a recipient for souls, as she seems to have attracted those of some of the servants of the House of Northerncroft, who now act as her family if the in-game text is to be believed. They are known as Helen the Agile Page, Frederick the Burly Cook, and Sebastian the Doting Butler. Maybe they were drawn to Revenant because her desire for revenge matched their resolve to have justice for the slaughtered Northerncroft family, or maybe they too thought she was Chloe the same way Revenant did for a bit.

Regardless, they are united in common cause and are closely tied to one another now. She allows them to remain tethered to this world, and they provide their strength and skills. She is to these servants what the Nameless Mausoleums were for the four Land of Shadow warriors, except she is fully conscious and quite sassy in comparison.

We finally reach Executor, possibly the most interesting instance of body and soul shenanigans going on here. We have seen two bodies share one soul, and souls moving to a new body, but Executor is two souls AND two bodies merged into a single one, embodying aspects of both individuals blended together harmoniously.

This is sometimes debated, but I feel like it's the explanation that makes the most sense. Executor has the memories from both the Painter and the Crucible Knight, but especially the Painter. He has the same tendency to paint, the same proficiency with katanas, and the majority of his journal entries speak of the Painter's point of view. It's clear that the Crucible Knight is also part of this blend, and probably the reason for it to begin with. The Crucible from which he draws power is all about blending life together...

Their physical forms were also likely merged together, as Executor lacks the sheer size of a Crucible Knight, and his facial features are quite soft and almost feminine. His voice is clearly masculine and deep, though, and most of his body is merged with his armor. Honestly, this is further fuel for the theory that the two of them merged into one, because the armor itself got blended into them too.

So what was this about again?

This was a long-winded way to say: Body and Soul are both alive and complete each other. The soul allows the body lucidity and greater awareness, but it is the body itself and its instincts that grant personality to each soul. Due to both being alive, both of them can exist separately from the other, and live or die independently.

The mind also exists, but it almost feels like it can only come to be if both sides are united, though both parts will keep an imprint of it if they ever separate, with the soul taking most of it with the scission. Of all three fundamental shards of an individual, only the soul and body are living, while the mind is more of a nebulous concept.

Short answer: No they didn't.

Long answer: Oh my gooooooooooood can we NOT do this shit, please???

There are two underlying sentiments to this line of thinking.

The Hornsent hurt Marika's people, thus Marika did nothing wrong, therefore they deserved to die badly

The Hornsent hurt Marika's people + Midra and some others, Marika is still evil, but the Hornsent deserved to be destroyed

Both may even come to the extreme of "Messmer wasn't cruel enough" or some other nonsense in the same vein.

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Number 1

To tackle number one, we need to remember a little thing called Elden Ring's base game. The Hornsent's jar ritual is undoubtedly abhorrent, that much is true. But I urge you to remember the things that happened during Marika's reign. She:

Murdered all of the Fire Giants but one, subjecting him to a fate similar to hers but worse, forced into labor confined on the mountain among the remains of his people and culture. She mocked him, to boot. All of this because they might have burnt the Erdtree.

Enslaved the Misbegotten from birth "or worse" because their species just so happened to have made contact with the Crucible.

Rewarded her own loyal Crucible Knights with scorn because of it too, as they didn't fit her current society that they fought to establish.

Made sure the Albinaurics were seen as lesser just because they were graceless, which influenced the way they were treated. She even had her Inquisition, run by Rykard, torture them in needlessly cruel manners, as they appear to be their main victims.

Just in general, she allowed Rykard to run a sadistic Inquisition to torture heretics to the Golden Order in the first place, and she saw nothing wrong with it or their practices.

She entombed the entire Great Caravan over a false rumor, which is the sole reason why the Flame of Frenzy was even a problem during her reign. This has also scarred the remainder of their people greatly.

Made the lives of all Omen a living hell either by cutting their horns just as they were born which often kills them, hunting them down in as cruel a way as possible by using their trauma and body parts against them, or throwing them in a sewer to fester with evil spirits hidden from view. She also used to shackle them, including her two children, just to make extra sure they wouldn't crawl out.

Shunned anyone who saw a vision of the Erdtree burning, regardless of who it was, and chased them away from their homes.

Literally allowed the belief that shorter people are somehow lesser, for apparently no reason at all (her most random discrimination decision tbh). This forces them to band together and take up honorless jobs just to get by, and in turn, people start to spread rumors of their inhuman practices, which are likely all untrue.

Had people literally work as slaves for the nobility just by virtue of "being born into obscurity", whatever that means. As well as other accounts of slavery like the Fallen Hawks (likely tied to the defeated soldiers of ancient Stormveil).

Likely endorsed viewing anyone without Grace as inferior beings, which includes the Tarnished that only exist because she divested them of it. She has done nothing to ease their discrimination (despite potentially seeing them as a future asset of sorts), as even the members of the Crusade are more than ready to kill us, like Fire Knight Queelign.

All of this was done in service to HER religion and order. Killing all the Fire Giants and burying the Nomadic Merchants alive? Oh, they could have ruined her age with those pesky flames of theirs.

Systematically oppressing Omen, Misbegotten, Albinaurics and the likes? Oh, they are impure creatures, unlike her people, blessed with the Grace of Gold, elevated from the rest. (Which is the exact same line of thinking as the Hornsent and their horns for crying out loud).

"Oh but the Hornsent stuffed her people into jars" yeah, and I am not arguing the contrary! It was a cruel, deranged practice, born of simple superstition that their victims would be reborn as "good people". But Marika's answer if you don't fit her vision of the world is to either get rid of you and your people through extermination, by literally hounding you from your rightful home, or by enslaving you.

Both sides are genuinely awful... but there's only one side that people are justifying, and it sure as hell isn't the Hornsent.

Marika's backstory is meant to make her less a god, which is all we have ever known her to be before the DLC, and more a human, which is what she once was. It gives her complexity as a character, it's meant to be the catalyst from which we learn why she took the path that she took. It is absolutely not meant to make us go "holy shit guys, Marika was the good guy all along???", because what she brought upon this world through her burning desire for vengeance has ruined it irreparably, and ruined the lives of most of the creatures who inhabit it.

This includes her ruthless, honorless, pointless Crusade against the Hornsent. Sure, it was her own son that started it, but it was for her sake. It was her who allowed him to wage it, he had her full support... until the thing turned to such a slaughter-fest that even she could not associate with it anymore due to how appalling it all was. And what better way to do that than to seal her own son away to wage war endlessly? And not just because his actions made her look bad, but also for the same crippling fear and prejudice that saw her kill all Fire Giants but one and scar the Great Caravan.

Gratuitous violence across the board, and for what?

(I want to make it absolutely clear that I don't mean you can't like Marika now. In fact, I'd say the DLC made her much more of an interesting character to me as well. I just cannot fathom seeing the entirety of Elden Ring and coming out thinking "wow Marika was the good guy" because she isn't. Heck, coming out thinking that she'd be disgusted with what her grandson Godrick is doing with grafting as if she isn't the queen of having zero empathy for those who are graceless or aren't her family, which the Tarnished he grafts are neither. She'd probably be very proud if anything. Marika is a monster. She became one the moment she obtained godhood, because no milestone would quell her. She did all the wrongs, so take this whole section as a refresher in case you had forgotten)

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Number 2

Now, to tackle number 2... this one seemingly has more nuance, but falls for the tried and true pitfall of "the many must pay for the crimes of the few" which is exactly where it rots and collapses onto itself.

Apparently, because of the perpetrators of the Jar Rituals, ALL Hornsent, INDISCRIMINATELY, deserve to be destroyed. They all, each and every single one, deserve the Crusade and the absolute pointless ruin that it brought them. From the children, to the ones who were friends with people with no horns, to the ones who found their own practices grotesque, to the ones that weren't even tied to the Tower's religion and were just simply living their lives.

They ALL, EQUALLY deserve to be burned, to have their cities destroyed, to have their lives ruined. All of them. Ok.

Number 2 works with the assumption that the Hornsent are some sort of hive mind. Some sort of all-encompassing religious order who believes in their superiority. But that's just the Tower's religion. Hornsent are a people. And people are individuals, with their own opinions, their own lives. In fact, from the perspective of the average Hornsent citizen, they were attacked out of nowhere as they were living in peace, which likely means they weren't even at war with Marika before this event.

People also have the assumption that all of the Hornsent were benefiting from their society, which is blatantly false. In fact, outside the treatment of the Shamans, the people that we know the Hornsent have hurt the most are their fellow Hornsent. We know of quite a few of them suffering at the hands of their kin BECAUSE of their religious and cultural practices.

Being Hornsent isn't a "free from mistreatment" card. If anything, the large Gaols where they were imprisoned were built specifically to house them. The main prisoners we find in large numbers are commoners, the same types as the ones scavenging the ruins of their ravaged towns. They are often seen eating maggots off the floor and cowering in fear. All of them were Hornsent too, locked away for who knows what crime. Could have been big and important, small and insignificant, or even just a failure to do something properly (there's precedent), point is, it's clear the Hornsent weren't having a good time in there.

The jar rituals were used mainly as punishment for the imprisoned Hornsent themselves, as a way to have them become "good people". This was just as horrifying for the Hornsent prisoners as it was for the Shamans I assume. Look how terrified this Hornsent seemed at the prospect of sharing that fate. This is the reason why they chopped up Shamans in the first place, as ritual ingredients for a punishment meant primarily for their kin.

And there were more Hornsent who suffered because of the leading ideology. Curseblades were once shunned because they failed to become tutelary deities, and so they were thrown in the Jar Gaols. They were only let out so they could use their expertise and flowing movements to defend their homeland when Messmer invaded, otherwise they'd be rotting with the Innard Shamans and the other Hornsent prisoners the way Labirith is.

It's also worth pointing out that Midra's Mense was filled with Hornsent attendants who sided with their sagely master regardless of his lack of horns and what the Inquisition believed of him. If we were to operate with reasoning number 2, they too would deserve to be murdered in the Crusade because they just so happened to be Hornsent. Because ALL Hornsent deserve extermination for what happened to the Shamans.

And we also know that the Hornsent can find what happens in Bonny Village revolting. In fact, we know that from someone who was born and raised there.

This sounds nothing like someone who thought any of that was ok. So who is to say other Hornsent weren't like this too, especially those who DIDN'T live in Bonny Village? Those who risked being stuffed into those same jars themselves? We make waaaay too many assumptions about an entire race, and that in itself is foolish enough.

If there's someone to blame, it's the Tower's Inquisition. They are the religious order that governs the Hornsent. They have all the power in their society... and yet, would you look at that? Enir-Ilim, their sanctum, the one place where those calling the shots reside, is completely untouched. And what about Bonny, the most structurally fine Hornsent settlement, when you'd expect it to be a black stain of char by now. But nope, no sign of Messmer activity and the Greater Potentates are just running around naked, doing their thing as usual.

The Crusade isn't even a good tool of vengeance, the only ones suffering are the civilians who were likely the ones with a higher risk of ritual jar punishment anyway. If this isn't proof enough that the Crusade is a completely petty, useless revenge war that accomplishes nothing I don't know what else to say. I'll just leave with what the people taking part in it were taking pride in doing.

These are people who, without a shadow of a doubt, would have chopped up most of the oppressed groups described earlier and stuffed them into jars if Marika had told them to do so. (Heck, something like this was being done to the Albinaurics already, as we have seen previously...)

They have zero moral superiority, their deranged zealotry is the only reason they act in the first place. Not to mention that they have no connection to Marika's struggles or past, nor were they informed of them I bet. It's likely only Messmer truly knows the reason for the Crusade, and that's only because he is her child and shoulders all the blame onto himself.

"Those stripped of the Grace of Gold shall all meet death" is LITERALLY their motto. Do you really think they stopped at the Hornsent? They were just their main target, but judging by the way all of Messmer's soldiers, including Queelign and the other Fire Knights, and even HE HIMSELF, attack us on sight for the simple fact we are Tarnished and lack Grace in our eyes, I have no doubt in my mind these people were just rounding up and killing anyone who didn't conform with the Golden Order.

THESE are the people who should be allowed to play judge, jury and executioner with the entire Hornsent race. And people will genuinely, with a straight face, tell you "That's right".

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To conclude... I think I actually hate reasoning 2 more than reasoning 1 lol, despite not liking either at all. At least 1 is understandable. Marika is a very interesting character, one that we have known for a few years now. We have an attachment to her, heck, sentiments of her being some sort of misunderstood/rebellious figure were already there before the DLC. In that regard, I understand the emotional response, even though I still think it's a wrong mindset to have. I have at least some hope that it is purely in the realm of fiction because it's a beloved character, nothing more...

Reasoning 2, on the other hand, attempts to be nuanced, or at least pretends to be. In reality, all it peddles is the "an eye for an eye" mentality which is much too common irl as well. Not only that, but it deals in monoliths. All people belonging to a group or race are equally responsible for stuff they didn't even commit, stuff that could have even harmed them, because their leaders decided to commit crimes against another set of people. And don't get me wrong, there will be even commoners from that group or race that will agree with and celebrate that bad deed, but just as many will not, but will be either scared, powerless, already being punished for speaking up through physical violence or elaborate shunning, or currently protesting and doing something to hopefully ignite a change.

From this side-by-side comparison of the Doll and Maria we can deduce a few things.

First of all is their hair. The Doll's is much paler than Maria's own, resembling white or grey hair rather than her actual blonde one.

Now, this is interesting, as the Maria we see in the Hunter's Nightmare isn't Maria at the time of her death. This version of her has been reverted to her Hunter years, no doubt as a punishment for taking part in the Fishing Hamlet massacre. We know this because the Maria of the waking world threw her iconic trick weapon in the hamlet's well, disgusted by what she had done.

She likely discarded her hunter attire, too, as it was tied to her misdeeds, yet the boss we challenge is armed just like the hunter she used to be, almost as a mockery of her.

Meanwhile, the Doll is a very faithful replica of Maria. Conceptually, she is based on a practice of the Victorian era: grieving dolls, made to commemorate those who have died. This means that her ashen hair reflects the hair Maria had in life during her time in the Research Hall.

One thing of note is that the faces are the exact same in contrast with the hair, which means Maria did not physically age between the Fishing Hamlet massacre and her eventual suicide, but her hair did grey out anyway. This is most likely related to her Pthumerian heritage; she is basically a vampire as far as the setting goes. Perhaps, the older people depicted in the paintings of Cainhurst could be of human descent, from outside the family's inner circle and simply married into it, explaining why they seem aged while Maria does not.

Alternatively, her people just naturally age more slowly than most humans, and as a direct relative of Annalise, she would probably be closer to her ancient superhuman lineage than many within the Cainhurst nobility. So they can age, it just takes very long.

Concept art reveals she would have tapped into her heritage much more overtly in her second phase, which shows her with the same grey hair and cadaveric look as the Pthumerian Descendants found in the dungeons, so I am positive of the connection between her greying hair and the Pthumerian lineage she is part of.

Alternatively, it was due to high levels of stress, depression, and incredible guilt and ptsd, something perhaps a bit more human...

Whatever the case may be, it finally explains why the Small Hair Ornament is said to be perfect when paired with greyish hair, when Maria's true hair color was blonde!

This decorative item must have belonged to Maria only during her time presiding over the Research Hall or when she abandoned the Hunt. These are the times when her hair might have begun to turn grey.

Interestingly enough, though, Maria's eyebrows had always been grey, even during her years as a Hunter. This is why the idea that the hair greying is due to her Pthumerian heritage makes a lot of sense, as it was starting to creep in even back then.

One last detail is the brooch, which appears to be completely identical in both her boss battle and when worn by the Doll. However, one appears green, while the other is simply a reflective surface. In fact, the one worn by the Doll reflects the Hunter's Dream!

I think it's possible that the brooch worn by the Nightmare's Maria actually reflects the Fishing Hamlet, a similarly green place. As we already established, this Maria was reverted back to a time when she was still a hunter, possibly fresh from her trip to the hamlet she helped destroy. Maybe in true dream fashion, the reflection is not fixed to her current location and is instead stuck there, just like the rest of Maria.

Shout-out to Gower's Ring of Protection from DS2, which just summons some naked ghost that holds onto your back and protects it from damage. It's an objectively hilarious concept for a mechanic.