#ucrh

Hi!

Len: In a general sense, I'd say the post-Johns stories which make him stupid (and I say "post-Johns" because Johns wrote the version that's largely defined him since -- and for good reason). I'm singling out Flash: The Fastest Man Alive as his worst though, because he was a mixture of stupid and thoughtless and completely went against the characterization that had been so popularly established for him. Len had a rule against killing heroes for a reason, and that arc + Countdown + Salvation Run was as though DC had posited "But what if he was actually a jackass?"

Lisa: The worst is when DC portrays her as a sad victim for Len to angst over (a general years-long problem), but if we're talking actual characterization I think the Eclipso annual is the worst for her. She doesn't really have a personality there, she's just nuts and it's played for laughs and to drive the action.

Digger: For him, I think the worst is when DC makes him a raging bigot (racist, misogynist, homophobe) with absolutely zero redeeming qualities, and you've genuinely got to wonder why nobody's murdered him yet. I think it's fine if he's got some outdated or crappy views to act as a foil to other characters, but he sometimes veers into caricature territory.

Owen: His Rebirth era reinvention as a douchey tech bro is pretty terrible, honestly, and is my pick. But Blackest Night: Flash was definitely the biggest character assassination.

Mick: His New 52 raging edgelord self, which didn't really end until Force Quest in the Rebirth era.

Hartley: His inclusion with the Rogues in Flash: Fastest Man Alive, which had vague claims of him being 'undercover' and whatnot, but the end result is that he was party to Bart's murder and it began the path to Countdown. It really didn't help that the art was ambiguous and looks like he's actively kicking Bart to death, even if (allegedly) that's not what the writer intended.

Mark/Marco: I don't know if I can call it the worst, but his post-Flashpoint revamp has been a damp squib; he's mostly just there and doesn't do much. His backstory is dubious at best and kinda offensive, and (to me) he's only been interesting in Rogues Rebellion. I think he can be made interesting if a writer wants to put in the work, but nobody's done so yet.

James: Countdown lol, along with the nonsense leading up to it in Flash: The Fastest Man Alive. Second place goes to "The Greatest Trick Of All" arc.

Axel: The Helmet of Fate: Detective Chimp issue, which had him gruesomely murder a bunch of college kids for their stuff.

Roscoe: The "Presidential Race" story (Flash v2 #120-121), which was very out of character for him.

Sam: Probably when he became a petulant hedonist in the latter half of Williamson's run. He's arguably the Rogue who's had the least development over his career (pre-Crisis was never very deep and he died in Crisis, and then he was mostly bland after returning in the New 52 until he went to the Suicide Squad book), so he's probably the hardest to find a bad story/characterization.

Evan: The issue in which he stalked and beat his ex-girlfriend after having been established as not wanting to hurt women and children. That probably laid the groundwork for all the later stories which have forgotten his moral code.

Roy: His New 52 incarnation, in which he was a whiny dork called Chroma and had his head ripped off and put on a pike.

Ooh, this could be fun! So I approached this as how they'd want to be treated by partners/lovers/friends/family, but I think there'd be some overlap in how they'd treat others in kind. Some of this applies platonically, as in this is how they'd like family/friends to show their affection and care, and some of this is romance-oriented too.

I used the chart below to help categorize my answers.

Len: Caregiving. He's not looking for someone to wait on him hand and foot, but for him it's meaningful to have somebody notice and care that he's eaten and hasn't been drinking too much, and that he actually gets some sleep. I guess that falls under 'Acts of Service', and he does the same for people he cares about.

Lisa: Receiving (and giving) gifts. Doesn't have to be anything fancy -- although she does love beautiful and fancy -- but she's a bit insecure about how others feel about her, and a fitting gift which is tailored to her tastes/interests helps reassure her. Even simple things like gold-coloured fashion bows and cute skating pins. She's also a very thoughtful gift-giver.

Digger: He's all about physical touch. To him, it's a reassuring act which means someone cares about him.

Roscoe: Being listened to and having people take an interest in the things he likes, and basically validating that his interests/thoughts aren't worthless. Falls under 'Quality Time', but arguably also 'Words of Affirmation'.

Mick: Also about caregiving, and he enjoys when people do nice things for him and he enjoys doing the same for others as well. He takes a more active role in his actions than Len does, such as cooking for people (when he's allowed) or doing a chore/errand to make other people's lives easier. And if you make a pot of chili for him, he'll hugely appreciate it even if it doesn't taste great.

Hartley: He frequently does acts of service for others because that's who he is, but what he really wants is to be listened to and have people take an interest in him.

Mark: He'll rarely acknowledge it (and would ridicule the idea if it was mentioned), but he needs words of affirmation and positive talk from the people he genuinely cares about too.

James: He's also very much into touch, to a level which can sometimes be challenging for others to deal with.

Axel: He also wants quality time with people, but it varies whether he's seeking others' guidance (like teaching him a new skill) or just being able to be himself without being told "shut up, kid" all the time. Either way, it means a lot to him when people treat him like he matters to them.

Evan: He needs words of affirmation, and needs to know that people care about him and like him for who he is. It's an ongoing issue for him.

Sam: Not entirely sure about pre-Flashpoint Sam, but post-Flashpoint Sam seeks quality time with those he cares about.

Roy: Mr "I believe in me" very much wants words of affirmation. He's endured so much mockery throughout his life that he really, really needs it.

Al: His love language involves science. Don't ask me how that works, it's definitely a kink.

I'm so sorry. You can always skip this ask or take as much time as you need!

So this is an old Ask and it took a very long time to finish, but I've fulfilled it up to Flashpoint for the following characters:

Axel Lisa Roscoe Mark Roy Al Evan Owen Sam Mick James Len Hartley Digger

Tumblr originally refused to let me save/post most of the chronologies here (too long), so I went to the trouble of creating a WordPress site to host them in full. Imagine my frustration/joy when later Tumblr did allow me to post them here in full! 😵‍💫😆 I'm still leaving the WordPress site up because it was a lot of work.

The backbone for this project is the DCU Guide, but this was no simple copy and paste; the site's entries are missing a lot of issues and has some issues which shouldn't be there, so I had to go through every issue on the list and verify it should be there, and cross-reference it with my own comic library to get everything the DCG neglected to include. Then I had to ensure things were at least roughly in the correct order, because the DCG does have some quirky ordering…for example, Teen Titans: Cold Case is listed at the end of DCG chronologies when it quite explicitly takes place while James was alive and with the Rogues and Owen was alive but had left the Rogues.

Some issue placements are guesswork, but placed at a time when they roughly should fit, like Sam's appearance in Flash v2 #64 is placed during a time when Wally was still wearing his red Kid Flash costume, for instance. I can't really find good spots for Owen's appearances in Supergirl because they definitely took place while he was with the Outsiders but there wasn't an obvious spot for the Supergirl appearances, so I just winged it.

Digger has a lot of random-ish appearances that are tough to place due to his time with Suicide Squad, so he's got more issues which are categorized as 'chronology unknown'. And I decided to exclude the zombie Rogues' Black Lantern appearances, as it wasn't really them.

Hmmm, I don't know if every Rogue has had an appearance which upset me -- annoyed me for sure, but not too many which bothered me.

The one which immediately comes to mind is the New 52 Flash annual #1 (2012) which made it really clear that Sam and Lisa were a couple and it copied so many beats from the Lisa/Roscoe ship that it seemed certain my ship and my fave character had been erased from continuity…and that issue actually made me cry. I still don't like re-reading it, and rarely do so, but it was more about the new status quo the issue represented than its actual content. And truthfully I kind of feel the same way about all the early New 52 Flash issues, though that one was just more raw.

The Kid Flash: Going Rogue book/comic really upset and angered me. At least it's just an AU.

I felt upset when James was killed off in Countdown for sure, and pretty upset/angered by what happened with Owen in Blackest Night: Flash.

I was furious at New 52 Roy getting his head torn off and put on a pike in Flash v4 #23.1. And shown again in Rogues Rebellion #1, and in another issue I can't remember right now (why did they keep showing it?).

I remember being bummed when Roscoe was killed in Rogue War, but I was brand new to the Flash and didn't have any connection to him beyond "this guy's awesome". I got into the Rogues during Rogue War, because somebody at scans_daily was posting the new pages when each issue came out and I got really invested in them. That was 21 years ago 😬

Otherwise though, issues that were published before I started reading the Flash provide a certain amount of emotional distance, and they might piss me off but I know it happened before I was even a reader so it usually just results in annoyance or frustration.

Some issues which resulted in annoyance/frustration:

-the off-panel killing of Lisa in Flash v2 #113.

-Flash v2 #120-121. It sucks and it's OOC.

-Countdown. I was reading at the time it came out, but it was just garbage. Loses extra points for killing James.

-Flash: The Fastest Man Alive (Bart's series). Was also reading at the time it came out, but it was just garbage and doesn't do more than annoy me.

-Roy getting killed in Flash v2 #183.

-That Neron story in Justice League Unlimited #15-16.

-I don't like how Lisa's portrayed in Flash v2 annual #5. The guys are fun in it, though.

-Evan's erasure in Flash v6 #12.

Digger, James, Axel, and Evan steal food every chance they get, and they're not picky about what they take. If it's vaguely edible, it's gone.

If it looks good, Lisa and Mark will steal it.

In the early days Hartley was an unrepentant food thief, but over time his sense of morality evolved and he'd had his fill of conflicts with the other Rogues.

Len will take food if it looks especially tasty, or if he doesn't like/is mad at the guy…so Roscoe and Mick get their food stolen a lot.

Roscoe rarely or never steals food because he's fussy (he says "particular" but he's actually just fussy) and probably wouldn't like it anyway.

Mick would never steal food, because he knows somebody would be pissed and he doesn't need that heat (har har).

Good timing to ask this, as I've recently been working on a project cataloguing the Rogues' drinking, smoking, and drug use…sorry, I've got odd hobbies 😅 They aren't the only things I'm cataloguing, I swear!

Short answer: many of them drink too much, especially Digger and Len. Evan, Mark, and Owen are pretty heavy drinkers too.

Len: He's got a serious drinking problem. He drinks tons of beer (there's even a short story about him titled "Beer Run" which is entirely about him buying more beer after he drinks it all), but he also drinks hard liquor too. He definitely gets tipsy on occasion, and we've seen him wasted at least once pre-Flashpoint. This is particularly noteworthy because his father was an abusive alcoholic, and Len's partially following in his father's footsteps whether he knows it or not. He's famously against drugs these days, but we know he used to experiment with drugs at some time in the past -- and his argument against drugs is that they dull the mind, but alcohol does the same, so his reasoning's always rung hollow and suggests a major blind spot and probable substance dependency.

Lisa: She drinks, but doesn't seem to have a big problem with it, at least from what we've seen. Len mentioned that she drank a lot in Johns' first story arc, but on the very same page he also says he's glad she's dead and that his father didn't drink much, and those were quickly retconned -- so her drinking may have been retconned too. She remained on a fairly even keel** at Len's party while some of the others were getting shitfaced, so she seems able to moderate her drinking. (**she got angry when the subject of Barry came up, but that's just Lisa.)

Digger: He's got a serious drinking problem, and has been shown drunk, acting out, or losing consciousness on many occasions. He drinks often enough that it's clearly a dependency, not just a social thing he enjoys. Somebody really should intervene, but the boss has a problem too and that isn't likely to happen amongst the Rogues. He was once shown trying to sell fake Miraclo, and who knows if he's dabbled in selling other drugs too.

Owen: He drinks a lot, sometimes to excess. Seems like he mostly drinks beer and occasionally shots, but he was setting himself up for real trouble later in life.

James: He drinks more than I'd thought he did, but it appears to be mostly beer and some wine and he handles it well. It's possible he doesn't drink much of the harder stuff, which some other Rogues definitely do.

Axel: Axel is sometimes shown drinking from a can when the other Rogues are clearly drinking alcohol, and it's left ambiguous as to whether he's drinking pop or energy drinks or something stronger -- but I think the implication is that it's not alcohol. However, there was a keg and empty beer cans in the hideout he was using with his underaged crew while the Rogues were off on the Salvation Run planet, and I'm sure those kids were drinking. We also know that Axel was involved with drugs before he joined the Rogues, so he's clearly been indulging in forbidden substances despite his age. He just might not be able to get away with it around Len.

Sam: I can't think of a single instance in which he drank alcohol before Flashpoint, probably because he died before Crisis when comics standards were a lot more puritanical. But in the post-Flashpoint Rebirth era he developed a pretty significant drinking problem.

Evan: He drinks a lot, and is well known to use cocaine. He talked about spending his time "just drinkin' and fightin'" when he left the orphanage, and we often see him casually drinking, so he's got a problem with substance overuse. He's also been known to sell cocaine, and apparently other drugs too.

Roscoe: He doesn't drink much, at least that we've seen. A flashback of the Rogues at a bar shows most of them drinking, but it's not clear if he is because you can't see him holding anything (his right hand is blocked from the viewer's POV by his torso, though). There's one panel which shows him relaxing at the Rogues convention and holding a can, but that could be beer or pop. The only time he's been confirmed to drink alcohol is when he was impersonating Thomas O'Neill and poured himself some booze in O'Neill's office.

Mick: He drinks sometimes, but doesn't seem to have an obvious problem because he doesn't get wasted and doesn't have alcohol in a majority of his appearances like Len and Digger. I think he's a social drinker who can hold his booze. He's been shown using cocaine once, although that was in Countdown 🙄

Hartley: He drinks, but not a lot. He was specifically having ginger ale when the other Rogues were getting drunk at the bar in Countdown, but he's been shown with wine and beer on several occasions. I doubt he drinks much hard liquor.

Mark: He's got a bit of a drinking problem, I think, and he certainly does drink to excess -- both beer and hard liquor. He looked pretty wasted when the Rogues were partying in Countdown. He did help Evan get off cocaine for a while, so he's probably got a limit on what he sees as acceptable substance use.

Roy: He's been shown with a drink on a couple of occasions, but seems to handle it just fine.

Alvin: He drinks in many of his appearances and has been known to get drunk and act out, so he's got a problem. I think that part of Alvin represents another of Albert's repressed desires, so I'd guess Albert wasn't drinking much while Alvin was around.