#tracygreen

Play it like a podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKy-_kr310I&t=1850s

Click the link above to hear white collar crime expert Tracy Green explain the nuances of the Trump campaign investigation.

Green and I met cute on Twitter last spring. We were both investigating the Trump campaign FEC documents, with an eye on payments to its digital team. Green, a trial attorney, took the time to break down the prosecution tactics of Special Counsel Robert Mueller and why former Trump loyalists have been granted immunity.

Here are some of the highlights from our 40-minute interview, which took place just hours before Trump Organization’s CFO Allen Weisselberg was granted immunity (below, you’ll also find her detailed take on what that means for the Trump campaign). Green’s responses are in quotations:

"PAPER DOESN'T LIE": "Particularly in a high profile case, the prosecution can't risk making any mistakes. They need evidence and documents that no one can challenge in court. Whatever case they file, they want to make sure it's gonna be bulletproof."

"MOB" TACTICS: "Trump doesn't use email. He doesn't even like to use the mail. He likes to have things personally delivered. And he likes to have other people handle the communications. He doesn't appear to be texting. He delegates so it insulates him. When you come to try to make a white collar case...it makes it difficult because he's not leaving a paper trail." 

ON COHEN AND PECKER: "Mueller's team wants to make sure they have all the evidence beyond a reasonable doubt with documentary proof. They offered immunity (to Pecker) so they have a completely separate line of communication that's separate from Cohen, who lied repeatedly to the public. The FEC is like the IRS, we all know only one percent of the population gets audited, but if you get audited, the microscope's on you. Everything they got out of Cohen, they got from a search warrant so they didn't really even need him. Maybe he can provide the color commentary."

ON ‘SILENT BOB’: "It's hard to be patient for a process where Mueller and his team aren't giving interviews and can't. And they can't assure everyone, 'Don't worry! We'll get our man.' They're supposed to be independent. Most white collar cases take three to four years to prosecute and 98 percent of all federal cases, resolve by plea and if they do go to trial, most of the time they win."

ON WHY MANAFORT DID NOT PLEA: "Just going in and cooperating and offering evidence, can create a few problems. If you're gonna cooperate, you have to lay out everything you've done. If you were there on the grassy knoll, you've got to say you were there. It can open up all kinds of other exposure. And if he doesn't have hardcore documents that would be valuable enough, he may not get enough of a downward sentence. So just flipping isn't enough, you have to show you can make a case. He wasn't like Cohen, who's been around Trump for years. Trump has a close circle and there's no indication he would have trusted Manafort with his deepest secrets. Manafort's next trial will hit a little closer to home, and the prosecution will play it very conservatively." 

"ABUSE OF LOYALTY": "There's a criminal code of conduct. If you're doing something that's not legal and you get caught, you keep your mouth shut. But that's not how normal people operate. Normal people, would say, 'I did this, and I should have known. I'll just go in and tell people what happened.' They don't make up any lies. Trump has had a lot of litigation experience. They settle on the courthouse steps, but this is a whole different ballgame, and he had no idea. He's being held to a different standard now. It shows his own character issues."

IMPEACHMENT VS INDICTMENT: "These rules are there so things aren't political. And it is political. They need the votes and that's why no one is going to seek to impeach as long as the Republicans have a majority. Clinton knew when he had a number on his back. Does Trump have a number on his back? That's a political decision, and that should be separate from any criminal case. The general understanding is he won't be indicted and that doesn't mean he can't be prosecuted later. It's to avoid criminal prosecutions that would be politically motivated. It doesn't mean that people can’t feel Trump should be impeached because they don't feel he's fit. Keeping the pressure on and being demanding is important. Mueller's team knows this is a historic time. They want to bring integrity for the agents and they want to bring integrity to the Department of Justice."

ON ALLEN WEISSELBERG: “It is unclear whether Allen Weisselberg told prosecutors in interviews or produced records showing that Trump had knowledge of the payments in January 2017. I suspect that if Weisselberg had provided documentation to show Trump’s ‘actual knowledge’ when payments to Cohen were structured it would have been alleged in Cohen’s plea agreement. On the other hand, it was not alleged in the Cohen plea agreement that any of the two Trump Organization executives withheld this information from Trump or that the candidate did not know. 

“So we see that the plea agreement indicates that Trump directed Cohen but doesn’t say that Trump directed Weisselberg or the other Trump Org executive to make the payment. Weisselberg could have stated in his interview that he assumed Trump knew based on his conversations with Cohen or others but that he didn’t have a specific discussion with Trump. I am assuming that Weisselberg didn’t have any documents proving Trump knowledge in or before January 2017. The prosecutors have been very careful to not allege anything that they cannot prove with documentary evidence. One issue that could arise is whether any of Trump’s lawyers or the sons asked Weisselberg about the facts after inauguration or when the McDougal story broke days after the election or when Stormy Daniels’ story broke. There could be imputed knowledge or even obstruction issues there depending on the facts. 

“However, Weisselberg still appears to be at Trump Org so it would seem that he did not see the type of conflict that would make him leave the company. This will be a waiting game as the facts and documents come out. Weisselberg’s acts in structuring payments in January 2017 combined with Cohen’s plea representations, the Cohen-Trump tape in September 2016 as well as any Pecker statements that Trump knew by October 2016 of arrangements with Woman #1 and #2 will be strong evidence that Trump knew before the election of these payments. 

“Normally, I would expect that Weisselberg’s attorney would have spoken to Trump’s personal attorneys by now. In addition, if there were a subpoena for records to Trump Org it would not surprise me if its attorney asked to speak to Weisselberg or Trump attorneys as part of a joint defense. The same could be true of Pecker’s or American Media’s attorneys who could speak to Trump’s attorneys or not. So Trump’s personal legal team may know what was said by Pecker and Weisselberg and whether there is documented evidence showing Trump’s knowledge or direction at the time of the agreements with the two women.  

“Usually in a white collar case the joint defense is key to sharing information among lawyers. It appeared that Cohen was part of the joint defense and withdrew from it when he changed counsel a couple of months ago in or about June. By that time, American Media documents had already been requested and produced and Weisselberg had already been interviewed on the arrangements with the two women. So the Trump legal team may well have known by that time that Cohen was being investigated for campaign finance violations in addition to his other personal legal issues.  

“If Cohen’s attorney did not give Trump’s legal team the warm and fuzzy feeling that he was going to fall on his sword and claim that Trump never knew and perpetuate that narrative, it may explain why Trump or the Trump campaign believes there was a conflict and stopped paying for some of Cohen’s legal bills from McDermott, Will & Emery.”

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Author Heidi Siegmund Cuda is a veteran investigative reporter, free press activist, filmmaker and mother. Below, Green and Cuda marching in a 2017 Fourth of July parade.