Mischief Gremlin Appreciation
Thor & Loki: Double Trouble Issue #1 (2021-)
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Mischief Gremlin Appreciation
Thor & Loki: Double Trouble Issue #1 (2021-)

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(Un)fortunately I didn't jump on the Marvel train until recently, and I'm a bit confused regarding Loki and the torture everyone keeps talking about? My rough timeline is, after Thor 1 he ended up in Jeff Goldblum's planet,,,,, aaand Avengers 1. I don't know when or why Thanos had him or whatever. Also, does it get outright stated in a movie or is it subtext? My biggest question is what the even fuck was doing Loki hanging out with Thanos in the first place
Welcome!! I do hope you enjoy the movies and fandom!! Your timeline seems to be missing Thor 2, and the chronological watching order should be:
- Thor 1
- Avengers 1
- Thor: The Dark World
- Thor: Ragnarok
- Infinity War
That Loki is/was tortured around/during Avengers 1 is canon! And so is the fact that the scepter he was using through the movie was also influencing him! Both of these are made pretty explicit and shown on-screen, though it's never talked about or referred to again outside of the film, so many people watching casually are likely to miss or dismiss it due to his role as the main antagonist in the film.
At the end of Thor 1 Loki fell into a wormhole, then in that same movie we are shown in the credit scene after the film that he survived, but he isn't exactly looking too good:
This follows into Avengers 1 and it's typically accepted that it takes place around a year or so after Thor 1.
In Avengers 1 Loki is implied to have spent his time in space with 'allies' (later revealed to fall under the Ultimate Big Bad who is Thanos, someone who can and has used torture on-screen on numerous occasions to get what he wants). The film opens with it being revealed that Loki will be allowed rule of Earth in exchange for the Tesseract (which he has the unique ability to obtain), and is able to use the army his 'allies' provide to complete both sides of the bargain.
Upon his arrival at Earth he looks and acts disoriented and crazed, attacking agents and using the sceptre he was given by his allies to mind control a few people. He stumbles and can be seen sweating profusely during these scenes as well as contradicts his position through the previous movie that he didn't want to rule. He also uses an oxymoron about freedom and proceeds to leave hints at his plan through the film, but that leads into the theory that he wasn't trying to win with his invasion and is open to interpretation.
Despite coming from 'allies' he essentially looks in worse condition at the beginning of the film than the end when the heroes have defeated him, including chill non-hostile behaviour immediately after losing.
Loki is only shown conversing with his 'allies' once, and we are shown he is doing the invasion under duress (threats, physical harm, heavily implied psychological harm) which is why his forced cooperation by them is explicit during the course of the film.
Deleted Avengers 1 footage tells us that the 'allies' had a telepathic link which caused pain and had him being monitored through the course of the invasion too but those scenes aren't canon canon.
Here are a few other posts about this with gifs detailing symptoms and going into theorizing into what torture was involved because while we know Loki was tortured during the film we're not given many details, and a lot of people deny it. (x) (x) (x) (x).
It's worth noting that this never being explicitly addressed in-canon again has basically resulted in the MCU retconing it years later and deciding Loki was motivated completely on his own with the invasion and was using Thanos to achieve the goal of gaining power because he's powerhungry and has control issues since he was a baby apparently (they also got rid of a few other backstory things of his), but that's kinda not what the narrative Thor 1 and Avengers 1 tells us on-screen, so it's open to however you wish to interpret it and future appearances.
Top Forty Thor-Being-Thor Moments from Thor 1
just absolute dumb*ssery that this 7yr old kidās life goal is to āhunt down the monsters and slay them allā. Iāll go easy on him here and let the Thor/Loki expressions do the talking because ofĀ ā...just like you did Fatherā but seriously can his hands even fit around a sword handle??? this kid isnāt even punching the air right??? if there was a sword in his hand he wouldāve cut his head with the way heās moving???? pure tiny-himbo energy here just look at that >:o face heās making. contrasts very nicely with Lokiās ā,:|. 10/10. such a baby idiot.
āthe jotuns must pay for what they have done! they broke into the weapons vault! if the frost giants had stolen even one of these relics!ā thor. thor please. can you even name one of these relics. thor. hey thor. thor. shut up.Ā āwell, what would you do about this?ā odin asks him.Ā āmarch into jotunheim! like you once did! break their spirits! so theyāll never try anything like this again!ā wow okay so weāve fast-forwarded by like a thousand years and thor is still going on about genocide. huh. thatās funny, i thought loki was the genocidal one. hmm. i also just realized that the loki exclusive clip gives loki the same hairstyle thor has here so do what you will with that information.
0/10. horrible. terrible. i dont care how angy thor is about not getting to kill some jotuns or become king today this very instant, that is a tremendous waste of food. an absolute fool. how can he just remorselessly throw the bread to the floor. if loki stabbed him when he was 7 he would deserve it for this table flip alone. what a privileged white *ssh*le.
loki came skulking around a corner and suggested not to go to jotunheim and not only did thor not suspect anything but he also then went on to decide to go to jotunheim. 10/10 himbo material.Ā
if tumblr didnāt have a picture limit i would put every instance of thor smiling in this list because look at that stupid smile. heās such an idiot. 11/10. this is the thor content iām here for.
āI have no plans to die todayā thor says with the stupidest open-mouthed smirking smile ever captured on film. right after he also told heimdall not to tell anyone theyāre gone. heās literally planned to strand them on jotunheim. thorās grand plan was to strange themselves on jotunheim and also start a fight. i repeat: thorās plan was to successfully slay all the frost giants and not need to return until theyāre all gone. what an absolute d*mb*ss. this is getting ridiculous. this was originally a top-ten-thor moments list but iām not even twenty minutes in so iāll have to extend the list. thor. thor are you listening? thor, youāre such an idiot.
āHOW DID YOUR PEOPLE GET INTO ASGARD?!ā thor you sweet sweet summer idiot, please, i am beggin,g you,, learn to rea,d , a room,, literally everyone else who came with you is regretting it, there is complete silence and only the rumble of the opposing king is meeting yourĀ āI AM THOR, SON OF ODINās, please, pleaseĀ take some notes from Loki, or, you know, literally anyone else in the room, since everyone is asking you to get out of this realm while you still can,
thorās stupid smile makes an appearance after he gets called a princess and decides to fight a whole realm over it. you know what? thor is a princess. heās the prettiest princess in all the lands. whatās thor gonna do about it? is he going to fight me too? I hope he does the stupid grin first. minus 15 points for the sexism. thor is a complete and utter sadistic fool who needs to get a hobby. seriously, heās 1500 years old and still going on and on about slaying all the frost giants. boi, i hate to break it to you, but your dad is not the best or only example of greatness out there. i donāt think your dad even qualifies as an example of that.Ā
āTHEN. GO!ā š„° ahh yes, just thor thingz š„°š„° like when one friend has had his arm burnt š„° and another friend has been impaled and needs medical attention, š„°š„° and all the rest of your friends are yelling for you, š„° and your brother is telling you they must go, š„° and you decide to buy everyone time by laughing maniacally and killing more frosties because you care for them and dont find joy in destruction like a loon š„°š„°š„°Ā
THIS is the iconic Thor moment that makes my day whenever I think about it. Just Thor, an absolute bumbering 6ā²6ā²ā giant boodlusting dummy sees Odin and just decides to yellĀ āFATHAA!! WEāLL FINISH THEM TOGETHAAA!ā as if the last thing Odin told him wasnāt āno, thor, weāre not going to do anything to the frost giants, do not go after them and try to kill them all.ā 11/10 d*mb*assery right here folks, I couldnāt ask for Thor to be more of a fool. This is PEAK Thor energy. Look at that face. I feel like Thor spends half this movie with his nostrils flared. I love it.
okay i gotta give thor credit for rightfully calling odin āan old man and a foolā but also there was not even 1 frame of the scene where Thor had a decent face so now all i see is >:O >:| >:o >:[ when i watch that scene. yelling at odin was great, not yelling at odin after he HUAERGHed at loki was less great, but to be fair itās thor and he is the definition of Peak D*mb*ss.Ā
thor literallyĀ GROWLS and starts yellingĀ āHAMMAA?? HAMMER??ā over and over. He was hit by a van, he fainted, he woke up and started growling. I donāt know what else there is to say about this.
āyou dare threaten me? puny human?ā. so. uhh. basically. Thor knew she was threatening him? He KNEW she had a weapon? instead he made a face and started yelling as he tried to walk his way closer????? thor you complete and utter dum dum. you frickin hairball-for-brains. im not even surprised darcy tasered him. with that kind of face, iād taser him too.
when you wake up in an unknown place to a person smiling at you without a stupid smile, the first step is always to attack first and ask questions laterĀ ššš (but seriously thor you imbecile why didnāt you ask where you were instead of throwing multiple people around the room and getting your butt needled. you clueless buffoon. youāll remain a clueless buffoon if you donāt listen to anyone.)
just a quick recap but thor was knocked unconscious by a van and these people kidnapped him aboard and the next scene we see him in heās checking himself out inĀ mirror after presumably changing right there in the open?????? these are the things that make thor thor. any other character and iād question it so much, but this is thor, and i truly believe this is in-character for him. just change in the open because why not? thor is a beefcake and thatās his only redeeming quality and he knows it. 10/10 thor moment.Ā
I am now convinced that Thor saw Jane andĀ ā5k van-hitter to lover slow-burn height-difference himbo-scientist tropeā flashed through his mind.
ābut no more smashing!ā Jane says, and then Thor proceeds to check her out and smile unlike an idiot and like a douche. was this his version of flirting???? iām not one to decide, but yes, yes it was. He threw a cup to the ground and broke it, and sheās getting mad at him and berating him about it, and heās liking it. yāall iām sorry to break it to you like this, but thor has a canon fetish. i am so, so sorry.
im DYING. THAT ISNāT EVEN A KISS, HIS MOUTH IS OPEN. he SMUSHES his mouth around her knuckle???? WHY. I canāt keep noticing things like this. send help. please. Janeās response makes so much more sense now; sheās laughs for a solid 3 seconds and shakes her head and is likeĀ āuhh, thank you? ahaha,ā and then she keeps looking back longingly when walking away. they are doing this in PLAIN sight of EVERYONE. Darcy and Erik are standing RIGHT THERE, and Thor is doing weird things to her with his mouth. Iām out. I am done here. goodbye.Ā
return of the stupid smile AND the douche smile in quick succession through the entire trip. their entire dialogue is peppered with innuendo.Ā āIāve never done anything like this before. have you ever done anything like this before?āĀ āmany times, but you are brave to do it.āĀ āI have nothing else to lose.āĀ āah but you are clever, far more clever than anyone else on this realm.āĀ ārealm? rEaLm?āĀ āyou think me strange?āĀ āyesāĀ āgood strange or bad strange?āĀ āI havenāt decided yet.ā I AM DYING OVER THIS. plus, we get Return Of The Himbo with Jane asking after Einstein Rosen bridges and Thor is likeĀ āuh, actually, more like a rainbow bridge šš¤Ŗā i feel so sorry for jane here, didnāt know how much of a d*mb*ss Thor was when signing up for this van-trip and knuckle-sucking ššš i also no longer have questions about how the trip that SHOULD HAVE BEEN A HALF-HOUR ONE turned into one that LASTED TILL THE SUN WENT FROM THE MIDDLE OF THE SKY TO SETTING by the time they arrived. I have no questions. please. I donāt want to know what they were doing in that van. please no. donāt make me think about it.
thorās plan had 3 steps and they were 1. give jane his jacket 2. walk in and get his hammer 3. fly out. that was literally his plan. he had the firstĀ āI have a plan. attack.ā moment in the MCU. pure concentrated 0-brain-cells energy right here. how can you not stan this king of d*mb*ssery. look at him, flaunting his big boy muscles. heās about get his hammer and fly out, like he just told jane with a trademark stupid-smile.
crop-top hair-mop thor is my favourite thor. the way the entire fight scene parallels a hamster in a maze only exemplifies the thor vibes for some inexplicable reason.
āyouāre big. fought bigger.ā + Thor douche-smile + subtext from earlier + rolling around passionately in the mud = not a happy me.Ā
I swear iām not making up this romantic subtext but itās barely even subtext. the entire scene leading up to Thorās attempt at lifting the hammer is actually filmed erotically. Iām not kidding. First thereās a shot where Thor pulls aside a hamster-cage-wall blind which mirrors a shower-curtain, and THEN he walks around the hammer while smiling douche-ly at it, we get a few close-ups to his face which are shot from angles slightly lower than himself, giving him an aire of superiority, plus the music adds to this, he reaches out for the hammerās handle with a mud-covered arm in the rain, in non-slow-motion slow-motion, and he wraps his arm around it, like, he fully twists his arm, unecessarily sexually, around it as he grabs the hammer. This is not okay. On the plus side, it makes the movie much more entertaining,, on the down side,,.
im not going to call Thor dumb for not knowing heās not worthy. im not going to. because odin literally whispered the enchantment to mjolnir after heād thrown thor to midgard. it is very funny watching thor grunt in frustration though. he starts yelling because he couldnāt lift the hammer and just lets himself get caught. like, dude, get a life, go buy a new weapon from the store, seriously. he mourns for the hammer on-screen longer than he does for loki. he also looks like heās in far more pain here. he becomes catatonic and unresponsive after this, but when loki dies heās already feasting the same afternoon. 10/10 dum dum thor material. never change thor, never change. (thatās code for please change, thor, please,)
thor trying to establish dominance wherever he goes is the funniest thing because at this point heās being a complete asgardian *ss about it and itās reaching points of pettiness never seen before. side note: he is possibly flirting with selvig too. maybe. iām not saying anything happened, but Thorās openning lines when bringing him home carried over his shoulder areĀ āheās fine, not injured at all,ā followed with an apology to selvig, and an explanation to jane which consisted only of āwe drank, we fought, he made his ancestors proud,ā and then he puts the man to bed and before he falls asleep erik saysĀ āi still donāt believe youāre the g*d of th*nder, but you ought to be,ā so... your choice, i guess...
thorās got his trademark stupid smile and stupidly takes janeās lifeās work notebook and starts doodling in it about trees. the last time his father told him this story about Yggdrasil was when he was 5 and he clearly hasnāt payed attention to any lesson about anything since and it shows so so much. thank you thor. very insightful knowledge youāre passing on hear. āi come from a world where [science and magic] are one and the same,ā ok great, now elaborate on that please. oh, right, you canāt because youāre thor, my bad, 20/10 thor behaviour. he couldnāt even doodle nicely. all his lines are wobbly. epic art fail. i wouldnāt trust him near my sketchbook with a 2B pencil.
THIS is thorās realization face. in case anyone was interested in whatĀ ādawning truthā looked like on him. š°šŖ THIS is the face of a thinker, of a man betrayed by his own beloved brother for unprecedented reasons. look at the nuance in his expression. š©š©š© so many emotions, I canāt even count them all š©šÆšŖ
stupid smile andĀ ādo not worry my friends, i have a plan,ā he says, āiāll just try and abuse the fact that Lokiās super selfless and kind and has no self worth to my benefit as i have countless times before which is exactly what heās rightfully angry about this time,ā he doesnāt think to himself because that is NOT the smile of someone who is thinking... like, at all. +10000 points to gryffinthor. the d*mb*ssery really jumps out.
āim sorry bro for whatever i did and whatever youāre blaming me for as an excuse to do this, im sorry bro, but youāre disturbing innocents that i donāt really care about but youāre the one making a scene in front of them so why donāt you admit you wonāt kill me and are just having a temper tantrum and we move on? hmm?ā and then he proceeds to get slam dunked in the face with a metal arm like yEAAAA BOI thatās what you GET for going up against the SENTIENT LAVA-SPEWING metal-man ya absolute dunderhead clod. thunderhead clod? yeah, that. heās just so dumb, your honour, please, you must understand, the victim pleads guilty on all charges of d*mb*ss and d*mb*ss alone.
I can NOT describe the emotions I feel knowing that Thor is suck-kissing Janeās knuckles. Like, his mouth is literally jelly-ing it up against her hand. There is suction there and it shows when he is placing and removing his mouth. I promise thatās what is happening. Iām not any happier than you about this. I regret everything. This is why Loki should be what is focused on and not Thor; Thorās going around trying to frick frack everything in sight even if itās just Janeās hand. Heās maintaining eye contact with Jane while he licks her fingers. Why did I decide to rewatch this movie.Ā
iām only adding this in as a thor moment because of how desperately and badly they kiss. seriously. 2/10 kiss. im not surprised jane broke up with him. they look like two actual seals fighting over an actual grape. while iām here iām going to criticize every fic ever that decided thor is an experienced gentle lover. what were yāall on when watching this movie. thor can and will f*ck literally everything in sight and he wonāt even do it well because he is the peakest of peak d*m d*m. look at this man. look at his face. that is the face of an absolute himbo idiot, and itās the face of an absolute himbo idiot who knows it. heās been stranded on earth for 2 days, max, and his flirt-count is at 69 people because his name is one letter away from thot. i bet his terrible use of a pen from early means he writes his ārās likeĀ ātās and he doesnāt even care. 1000/10 thor moment. doesnāt get much more romance-thor than two individuals smooshing their faces together after some finger sucking. that finger sucking is gonna leave jane simping for years. and thatās true love babey. <3
āIāll handle my Brother!ā Thor says, as if Loki didnāt send a metal-murder-bot that quite virtually killed him less than ten minutes ago asdfhkhsdgsdjf Thor, you horrific himbo you, Lokiās weapon of choice is literally throwing knives he will literally kill you before you enter the room if heās on his game and wants you dead which he just proved he would do and youāre just gonna???????????? jog on over to him????? Thor??????????? bruH???????????? buddy??????? pal???????? you really wanna go 1v1 the brother you very clearly underestimate and know nothing about????????????????? im loving the confidence, but, no.
Loki: āyou literally canāt stop this from here.ā Thor, immediately: āiām going to hit it with the hammer and see if that worksā and then it does in fact work later... technically speaking, even if it ends up causing chaos destruction and death and loki falling off the bifrost ššš but Big Brain Thor is the Biggest Brained Thor!!! The plan worked!! in a messy-Thor-ish way, but it did!!!
āyou canāt kill an entire race!!!!ā Thor yells, teeth gritted, as he faces his brother, his coward pacifist brother, who has suddenly decided he wants to join the age-old family tradition of realm-destroying, when this is supposed to be Thorās dream, Thorās, not Lokiās. How dare he, Thor thinks to himself, fist clenched around Mjolnir in anger, the pain of the handle pressing against his palm perhaps the only thing preventing him from lashing out at this thought, thatās my planet of monsters to slay, he should go get his own! Loki hits Thor across the face with the back-end of his spear.Ā āNow fight me,ā Loki says, but Thor, well, Thor cannot fight, as he remains stunned that of all things Loki would dare steal his lifeās ambition, and he is sent sprawling backwards across the observatory, slowly but surely sliding to a stop despite his catatonic, very symbolic silence.
the elegance, the poise, i see your time on earth has made you no less graceful, Thor. the simple magnitude of this sprawl. the spread of the arms. the turn of the feet. this is not a dude, this is a man.
sometimes your brother starts vehemently talking about heās gonna kill the race of monsters and about how heās only ever wanted to be your equal and about how heās not your brother and never was and sometimes you just have to sayĀ āthis is madnessā instead of addressing the issues or asking for any of theĀ deetsĀ š„ ššÆš©
Loki is whipping Thorās butt. Both literally, and metaphorically, Loki is whooping Thorās d*mb*ss. Earlier he knicked Thorās face, now heās just pushing Thor around, he uses the spear as a pole and later kicks Thorās face by kicking vertically up, and Thor, bless him in all his blond golden muscled glory, doesnāt think anything is up with this, gosh heās such an absolute utter idiot
sometimes your brother laughs way too much and also cries too much in a fight and there are also too many of him so you just need to blast lightning so you get a shot at all of them ššš and then put your magical infinitely-heavy hammer on his chest ššš but itās okay because Thor left holes in Lokiās container ššš
now THIS is the meat to Thorās funny bone, just the pure unadulterated humour that is Thor saying that there will never be aĀ āwiser kingā or aĀ ābetter fatherā than Odin, it cracks me up every single time without fail, just the way he says it with a straight face andāĀ what do you mean he wasnāt joking
look at Thorās stupid smile as he asks Heimdall to spy on jane every single day while conveniently never asking after Loki ever. This is Thorās face in mourning after he attended a feast after everyone was celebrating after Lokiās death. Look at his stupid smile. I love him your honour. Heās just,, heās just so frickin stewpeed, just Thor being Thor, just the purest of d*mbest of *sses.Ā
what?? comic???? is?? the one???? where loki can turn radioactive at will?????? i would like to read it
Oh it's not a big thing but that would be Issue #1 of The Avengers (1963) which I believe was the first comic where the team formed ;)
He can just Do That for a few minutes according to Thor, which I'm pretty sure means he's done it before sdjhbagvjhydbj they get rid of him by dropping him into a lead box sahgjvadbhka
I feel the need to warn you of the art in the first few issues of this comic especially but in Avengers (1996) in issues #10-11 he does something I think is similar when he absorbs the energy of a nuclear reactor and while that isn't becoming radioactive it's real cool bc we know he can use energy like that and also Amora Wanda Thor and Agatha Harkness all have to use their strength to provide a distraction to him. That's fun.
He does get cool moments through the run though because he tricks and schemes and all :') it's also incredibly funny to watch the ladies kiss people in the name of scheming :') good for comedy and Loki being a dastardly bad guy :')
okay I know this is a very complex question but who is Ikol. :') can you please walk me through the lokis we have in the comics so far
This guy here was the OG Old more evil Siege Loki - youāll notice the big horns
he did some bad stuff, tried to take the bad stuff back, something something, he died essentially regretting what heād done and sacrificing himself to save everyone.
this here smol lovable New Loki is how Loki was brought back to life (Comic Loki literally canāt stay dead). Itās an all-new Kid Loki, not to be confused with the old, although he has the same name and inherits everyoneās ire for his predecessor:
this baby bean Loki above, all Disney-Princess-like, gets an animal companion.Ā
This companion is a copy of the Old Loki that died. heās an echo of his scream as he died that manifested as a soul (bc Loki is not only impossible to keep dead but ridiculously difficult to kill to boot) and that soul takes the form of a magpie.
Eventually, (and this is spoilers for later runs), Kid Loki dies. But Loki canāt just die and end his story there so Kid Lokiās soul is gone and the birdās soul goes into the body.Ā
so now thereās essentially Old Lokiās copy, Ikol,Ā in Kid Lokiās body, and no one knows this. So Old Loki/Ikol LokiĀ uses the rep of being a good new soul that Kid Loki had been getting to carve himself his own path to being good, because he does want to be good because unexpected change is something chaos deities need every now and then.
This Ikol LokiĀ magically gets older and becomes this teen:
Then he aged-up again but to adult-hood:Ā
At some point or another people figure out or he confesses to having taken the body of Kid Loki but thereās not much anyone can do about it.Ā
So, in conclusion, these are all, in order,Ā Ikol Loki. The current Loki running around? Ikol Loki. We just call him Loki though, and I like to think heās gone through enough to be a differentĀ Loki than the copy he started from.

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wait i always thought the blonde ponytail thing is like a ribbon or tassel or something, is it hair??
Itās drawn like hair and uses what I think is hair physics a lot of the time so I assume itās hair when itās like this
i mean itās not like heās never done a regular ponytailĀ
plus thereās this
BUT sometimes he also uses a ribbon??? multiple ribbons???
in conclusion
please read the article 'How White Fandom is Colonizing "Character-Coding"' by Shafira Jordan and quit while you're ahead
Okay, so I read it and see the problem, and Iāll try to address all their points in order because I donāt wholly agree with the article. I know itās a lot to read so Iāve put tldr; sections at the end of each :)
Misusing the Term Reinforces Negative Stereotypes for Marginalized PeopleĀ
The article essentially argues that labeling characters which are villainous as POC-coded is bad because theyāre not morally pure and doing so "reinforces the idea that people of color are naturally dangerous and not to be trusted.ā
Which is fair as you donāt want all the representation to be of ābadā characters, but I also donāt believe all representative characters have to be āgoodā either as it would be equally racist to divide good/bad in such a way. Not that I would place Loki underĀ ābadā to begin with, but arguing that characters shouldnāt be labelled as POC-coded for reasons unrelated to whatās presented in the narrative or because they did bad things is :/ even if lack of good representation is a prevalent issue in current Western and influenced media.Ā
Ideally there should be a range of representative characters that fall into āgoodā, ābadā, and āanywhere in-betweenā because variety and complexity in character types should, in theory, be treated as common practice (which can only happen with a multitude of representation!).
And a bit unrelated but... within the fictional context of Thor 1, all the Jotnar (sans Loki) are presented to the audience as ābadā by default. They desperately want to get their Casket back to the point of attempting stealing it (from the āgoodā characters), they fight the heroes and even when the gang and Thor (āgoodā characters) are enjoying or going overboard with taking lives itās inconsequential, Laufey wants to kill the opposing king (who just happens to be a āgoodā character) and will resort to low-handed methods to do so, etc. The narrative itself is from the frame of reference of the āgoodā and we only see warriors of Jotunheim though so we understand why itās like this, because regardless of their race/experiences the narrative carries, even if it most definitely would be seen as racist from our real-life perspectives if the āmonstrousā race were presented by actual people of colour, even if it would make sense for the people on on different realms living in different environments to be different from each other, and realistic even for that to be the root of some conflict.Ā
tldr;Ā not using a specific label to prevent negative presentations of the characters seems a bit strange to do when the coding would be based off the text, but with limited representation available I see why it would be done, even if I still believe minority-coding is free game to expand/interpret.
Improperly Labeling a Character as āPOC-codedā Suggests the Experiences of All People of Color are the SameĀ
The article argues that labeling Loki as POC-codedĀ āsuggests that all people of color have the same experiences, when in reality, people of color come from different places, have different cultures, and have different traditions.āĀ And while itās true that the term doesnāt go into detail about which particular experiences (and these experiences can vary vastly due to diversity!) the appropriate measure would be to remove the umbrella term POC altogether as people of colour tend to also vary. But thatās also exactly why itās an all-encompassing general term? Itās a way to denote anyone who isnāt āwhiteā and has the associated cultural privilege that comes with the concept of white supremacy.Ā Ā
And, obviously, in the fictional setting presented, the concept of white supremacy is not prodded at, but cultural supremacy is definitely one that makes recurring appearances, right next to the parts about Asgard being a realm built on imperialism with ongoing colonial practice.Ā
My take on this is that Lokiās narrative features a struggle with identity after finding out heās of a different race and was being treated differently his entire life and being Jotun was presumably a part of the reasoning even if he didnāt know it. Heās basically treated as of less worth for inherently existing differently. I do believe that racism is a common-enough POC experience, but that while Loki was born with blue skin he passes/appears white which is why I donāt say that Loki is a POC, just that he has been coded/can be interpreted this way.Ā
Thereās also the entire thing with Loki trying to fit in and prove he belongs by trying to fit the theory and be The Most Asgardian by committing genocide (which ultimately makes no difference as heās still not the āacceptableā version of Asgardian), and the denial/rejection of his birth culture in destructively lashing out towards them (which even Thor is confused by because Loki isnāt typically violent), and the fact his self worth plummets and he is passively suicidal upon finding out heās Jotun (internalized racism? general drop in self-worth after finding out heās adopted and has been lied to? Bit of both?), but what do I know, Iām sure none of those are, at their base, common experiences or relatable feelings for anyone or decent rep because we see such themes on-screen presented wonderfully in different lights all the time.Ā
tldr;Ā every set of experiences could be different, some types of discrimination could overlap, if you limit an umbrella term to only very specific circumstances then itās no longer an umbrella term.
Suggesting that White Characters are Meant to be Seen as People of Color Ignores the Actual Characters of Color that are Present in these Stories
I donāt agree with most of this section, but that may just be the way the arguments are put together, which I donāt blame the author for.
ā Implying that Loki is a person of color completely ignores Heimdall and Hogun, the only Black and Asian Asgardians who appear in the movie. ā
Characters such as Hogun and Heimdall which are played by actual people of colour have smaller roles in the films and any prejudice they could face for being POC in-universe isnāt made apparent, while Loki at the very least comes to the realization that something he couldnāt change (race, parentage,) was having him treated differently his whole life and had to come to terms with it. The Vanir/Aesir are also both treated similarly on-screen, and Heimdall having dark skin isnāt plot relevant, whereas Jotnar are treated as lesser consistently and are relevant through the movie (breaking into the vault, Thor and co. attack Jotunheim, Lokiās deal with Laufey, the attempted regicide (and the successful one XD), destroying jotunheim, Loki saying heās not Thorās brother,).Ā
I also see including characters as POC-coded as... more representation? In all canon-compliant interpretations of the characters Hogun being Vanir is always explicitly mentioned because itās a fact that just is, up to the appearance and even the world-building of Vanaheim in some fanworks use particularly East Asian culture as inspiration. I have never come across a Marvel fandom Heimdall interpretation where heās not Black... but because these characters are more minor/side-characters of course they get less attention!Ā
ā In Lokiās fandom, Heimdallās name sometimes gets thrown in to suggest that it was he all along who was the real villain due to his āracismā against Loki and the rest of the Jotun. It is, of course, ironic to suggest that somehow the only Black Asgardian to appear in the movie can oppress the privileged white prince.Ā ā
I... donāt know where to start with this. But the example of theorizing given in the article wasnāt suggesting Heimdall was bad or trying to explain his actions in Thor 1 by saying he is Black... and just looking at a characterās actions shouldnāt be done less or more critically because of skin tone in my opinion. Heimdall may have been trying to do what was best and protect the realm but if the audience didnāt know that Loki was up to dodgy things then the coding would be switched around because he was trying to spy and committed treason and then tried to kill Loki. People... can hold feelings towards others... regardless of skin... and suspect them... for reasons other than skin... although I do still have questions about whether Heimdall knew Loki was Jotun or not. (Even if I personally donāt think itād make a difference to how heād treat Loki?)
Some Loki fans have also suggested that because Jotuns have blue skin that this alone makes him a person of color (even if the audience is only allowed to see Loki in his true Jotun form for mere seconds of screentime). This, again, shows a lack of understanding when it comes to race. It doesnāt matter what skin color the Jotuns have.Ā
Race can differentiate between physical and/or behavioural characteristics!! Not being blue all the time doesnāt make him any less Jotun!! Heās got internalized stuff to work through and is used to being Aesir!! At least 1 parent is Jotun so even if Loki was passing as Aesir heās probably Jotun!! (I donāt know how magic space genetics work for sure but Loki being Jotun was an entire very important jump-starting point in Thor 1!!). Itās a fantasy text and typically things like having different coloured skin indicates a different race or is sometimes if a species has multiple then is just considered a skin colour. Thatās how coding works!! The Jotnar are very specifically the only race we see in the movie with a skin-tone not within the ānormalā human range, which alienates them to the audience from the get-go!! Theyāre anĀ āotherā and on the opposite side to theĀ āgoodā characters.
Both Loki and his birth father, Laufey (Colm Feore), are played by white men, and it is impossible for a white man to successfully play a character of color.Ā
The specification of men here bothers me, but yes, you donāt get āwhiteā people to play characters of colour if it can be avoided. (And it can be avoided.)
This also connects with the previous point made that people of color come from various places. There is nothing specifically about the Jotun that could be traced to any specific person of color, and even if there were, there would be no way for white men to portray them without being disrespectful.
This is where arguments about the definition of coding and how specificity/generalizations and do/donāt come in. I know Iām subjective and lean towards the more rep the better, but while I agree āwhiteā people wouldnāt be able to respectfully play a POC I donāt think that rule should have to carry over into fantasy-based fiction. I know texts reflect on reality and reality can reflect within texts, but if contextually there is racial discrimination and there are similar ideas which resonate with the audienceās own experiences Iād say itās coded well enough to allow that.
tldr; Thor 1ā²s narrative revolves mainly around Thor and Loki, of which race is kinda kinda a significant theme in Lokiās part of the story. Not so much explored with less-developed side characters such as Heimdall and Hogun, even though their actors are actual people of colour.Ā
How Much of this is Really Well-Intentioned?
In the fantasy space viking world Heimdall and Hogun donāt face any on-screen prejudice and their appearance is not mentioned (which is nice, for sure! good to have casual rep!) but adding on to the roles they play in the narrative the explicit fantasy-racism in the movie isn't aimed at Asian/Black characters, but towards the Humans -to a lesser extent- and the Jotnar, including Loki, who only just found out he comes under that bracket.
The article mentions how fandom space toxicity often āreaches the actors who portray the characters,ā which is true, and itās shameful that people have to justify their roles or presences are harassed for the pettiest things like skin tone/cultural background, but I donāt see coding characters as removing the spotlight from interesting characters such as those which are actually POC, rather expressing a demand for more rep, since well-written complex characters which are diverse are often absent/minor enough in the media, and therefore can get easily brushed aside in both canon and fandom spaces.
tldr; Itās obviously not a replacement for actual representation, but, if a character is marginalized and can be interpreted as coded, even if they would only be considered so within the context of the textual landscape, I donāt see why spreading awareness through exploring the coding as a possibility for the character shouldnāt be done, even if the media is being presented by people who areĀ āwhiteā or privileged or may not fall into the categories themselves, as long as itās done respectfully to those it could explicitly represent.
What do you think about that scene in agent of asgard when thor beats loki at the point he lose a tooth? (I am curious, and never saw anyone commenting about it...)
oh I love those pages!! I feel like everyone is justified in being angry but Loki isnāt denying anything and is trying to own up and be better, and the other Loki was going to die anyway, so that he was beat up and not really given the chance to be heard out was so brutal XD PLUS the pleading makes the entire thing *chefās kiss* bc Loki doesnāt want to fight but no one is willing to listen by then.Ā
Of course, the audience knows Loki really is sorry and that this was barely his fault because we know he canāt lie.Ā
Of course, Thor alsoĀ knows Loki canāt lie and still beats him up through the begging though, whether itās because heās lost all faith in that or is overcome by rage is a mystery though.
Thor trying to beat Loki up or threatening to kill him is completely normal behaviour though, so not a big deal, only difference is that this time itās framed from Lokiās perspective rather than Thor :DĀ
fun times, fun times, although I canāt blame everyone for hating Loki, even if he didnāt deserve to be beat :PĀ