“Thunder In The Mountains” plays JACKIE: Welcome to the “Great Conversation” with Jackie Brambles. This is the home of great conversations with your favourite artists of the 70's, 80's and 90's. Tonight's special guest represents the very essence of what the 80's were about. Rebellious, visually striking with a point of view and plenty of opinions And of course surfing along on that early 80's post punk new wave sound, such as our opening track, “Thunder In The Mountains”, which got to number four in 1981 for our special guest, her third consecutive top 10 hit that year She started out as an actress, breaking through in movies like “Jubilee” and “Quadrophenia”, and she's never stopped creating. During lockdown, her and her iconic guitarist husband, Robert Fripp entertained a grateful nation with their YouTube “Sunday Lunch” performances in their kitchen, which continue to this day. What a joy to welcome back to the “Great Conversation” the one and only Toyah! TOYAH: Hi! How are you doing? JACKIE: I'm good. How are you, my lovely? TOYAH: Yeah, really good. I don't know about you, but life is crazy busy! JACKIE: I've just been reading up on what you're doing lately. Often special guests come on and they've got an album – or they've got a tour, and there's 10 dates, or 15, if it's a really big tour. You've got 49 dates coming up! TOYAH: I know. And I'm already promoting the same tour for next year. We haven't announced it yet, but I think I'm doing 53 of these next year JACKIE: That is good (but) bonkers. You've got so much energy!

TOYAH: It's being tested because I'm actually making a new album as well. I was up at three this morning doing vocals

JACKIE: Oh, my goodness! Is that because you're naturally a night owl? You're more productive at night? I know I am

TOYAH: I can't answer that. I never know when I'm going to be productive. It's so erratic. Being my age I just grab it when I can

JACKIE: Well, you're looking rather fabulous. Do you work hard at looking after yourself - because you look spectacular?

TOYAH: It's a very good question. I need more time to look after myself these days. I don't want to go on the jabs (fillers, botox etc) I'm 68 this year and my ass is getting huge (Jackie laughs) I really don't want to go on the jabs

JACKIE: Don't go on the jabs. You've got a beautiful, sculpted face as it is. You don't want that face that some people get

TOYAH: Oh my god, yeah!

JACKIE: You're going to be racing around a stage for 49 nights starting very soon. March the 22nd isn't it, the first date?

TOYAH: As soon as I start singing my body pulls into shape. It's like doing two hours of yoga every night JACKIE: How amazing. When you stand here where you are in your career right now, with all that you've learned, with all that you've done, with all the ups and downs - if we could put you in a time machine and magic you back to speak to the young Toyah, who was just about to break through, be on Top Of The Pops and it's all about to go bonkers … what words of wisdom would you whisper in her ear?

TOYAH: It's a very good question, because the world was such a different place back then. I would have said education, education, education. Practice, practice, practice. I never believed that technique was important. I came from the world of punk, where everything was spontaneous. But I do think that like a virtuoso piano player, a violin player, a cello player - practice and control conserves energy and uses the body like an instrument

So I was wasting a lot of time just kind of running marathons, when all I needed to do was hone what I had. In hindsight, I really think that education is the greatest gift in this life. Have good acting lessons, good technique lessons. I would have gone back and done that, because the instrument I was born with was very, very good, but my psychology was askew JACKIE: Isn't that the case for all of us? When we're youngsters we think we know better

TOYAH: We own the world when we're young

“I Want To Bee Free” plays JACKIE: “I Want To Be Free”. It got to number eight in 1981 for our special guest, Toyah. So let's go way back, if that's okay with you, to figure out the earliest influences over you as a person, as an artist. You've been quite open about your childhood over the years. (It was) not an easy one TOYAH: My childhood was complex because my mother was harbouring a secret she never told anyone. ancestry.com revealed this secret to me in 2021. My mother had already passed by then. She was illegitimate. Her father murdered her mother and from the age of about 16 to the age of 19, when she married my father, she had to have a 24 hour chaperone live with her in case her father came for her. We never knew this and it not only came as a shock from ancestry.com but it put all the pieces together My mother was the most negative human being I've ever known and the most broken human being I've ever known. You've got to add to that equation that there was maternal love there, there was protection there, but she was complex and I could never connect with her For the time she was in my life, from the day I was born until she died about 13 years ago, so I'd have been about 55 - she couldn't say one positive word to me. She never said “I love you”. When I told her I'd won the “Rock & Pop Awards" in 1981 her reaction is typical of what it was like being with her. “You will fall on this award and it will kill you” JACKIE: Oh, my god! How did you thrive beyond that? TOYAH: She made me feel mad every day and she made my father feel mad. My siblings loved her, but we just couldn't bear being with her. Every single day was destructive, but she had been through something appalling. So I do open my show with this story, because there was so much love there. But it kept turning. It kept showing the other face JACKIE: It's a very twisted and disturbing picture that you paint, Toyah. I wonder whether music became your safe place, your respite from the chaos going on at home. What songs remind you of that period of your life? TOYAH: The songs for me for the first 10 years of my life - I was born in 1958 - I thought the only band in the world was the Beatles. I was never aware there were any other bands. My song for me would be “She Loves You”, which I used to sing to the family and shake my head like Paul McCartney and just have them laugh hysterically at me The Beatles “She Loves You” plays JACKIE: The Beatles, “She Loves You” got to number one in 1963. (It was) an early influence in the life of our special guest who had that song imprinted on her when she was but a five year old. Her new book “Meteorite” is out now, and she kicks off her 49 date “Songs And Stories” tour of the UK this coming Sunday in Chelmsford So before the break, Toyah, you were sharing with us the pretty miserable existence that you endured as a kid growing up. As you got older did music become an escape for you?

TOYAH: It was definitely the driving force. The wake-up call for me was David Bowie, who so obviously was unconventional, and so obviously was not going to be told who he should be. In the face of his adversity - because he had a very sad young life with his brother's schizophrenia and his mother's schizophrenia - he gave my generation strength

When I first heard “Space Oddity” I loved it but when I heard “Starman” and I saw this human being that was not gender specific I realised … oh, this is who I am. This is what I need to be. Bowie helped me break away. I went to see him as “Ziggy Stardust” in Coventry about 1972. I saw him many times through my life and I value Bowie as someone that gave me my personal freedom JACKIE: How amazing then that you ended up marrying your husband, Robert Fripp, a master of the guitar and of course founder of the band King Crimson. Bowie specifically asked him to come and play on his records. Robert was on both “Heroes” and “Scary Monsters (and Super Creeps)” to name but two How have you coped with meeting him over the years when he was still with us? In that kind of almost social studio way where you're with your husband and this man, who meant so much to you during difficult periods of your life, is just chatting away?

TOYAH: One of the the most challenging things for me was to be in the presence of David Bowie. I never got over it because my husband worked with him, and Bowie was regularly in touch to ask Robert on projects. I would stand within 18 inches of Bowie thinking I'm going to pass out. I can't open my mouth, I can't breathe. Eventually Bowie realised it was a problem for me, so he never tried to talk

JACKIE: He just realised that you were so excruciatingly uncomfortable

TOYAH: I was just like … well, I can't swear, but I mean ... it was like bog off Bowie. It was like ... I'm not opening my mouth. I'm just gonna blow my cover

Davie Bowie “Starman” plays

JACKIE: “Starman” by David Bowie, a hit in 1972 when our special guest would have been a young teenager. So let's talk about as you got a little older and you decided you wanted to pursue a career in music. How did that all come about?

TOYAH: I was so lucky. As soon as I moved to London I was the youngest member of the National Theatre as an actress. But then a wonderful actor from “The Chariots Of Fire” called Ian Charleson introduced me to the film director Derek Jarman and I've never looked back. When I made the movie “Jubilee” I was acting opposite Jordan, who, at the time, managed Adam And The Ants and The Sex Pistols. Adam Ant was in the movie, and Adam and I wrote a song together called “Nine To Five”

I started to work with people in the room, such as The Stranglers. I did the Rainbow Theatre with The Stranglers when Hugh Cornwall was a guest of Her Majesty's prison (Jackie laughs). I just worked with these phenomenal people. Iggy Pop rehearsed his tour for the “The Passenger” in my home, the warehouse (“Mayhem" in Battersea, London, below) I was just mixing with fabulous, glorious people. I just got on with my life

JACKIE: How amazing. Not just that you got to mix with the sort of the peers of the time but it was at a time when music and technology was changing

TOYAH: It was so good! I would throw four day parties that Steve Strange was the host of and he would bring in 400 kids into this warehouse. Boy George would be in there. You would have members of The Clash. Steve Strange was becoming a big star in his own way with “Fade To Grey”. Spandau Ballet did their first ever concert in my warehouse. It was a wonderful and the music was fantastic

JACKIE: That's amazing. So you had this space that you lived in and people could just come and do their creative thing there

TOYAH: Hazel O'Connor came and she formulated the music for the movie "Breaking Glass" there. We were having four days raves!

Hazel O'Connor “Eighth Day" plays JACKIE: That song got to number five in 1980 and was the breakthrough hit for Hazel O'Connor. “Eighth Day, which she wrote, along with the other songs from the “Breaking Glass” soundtrack at Toyah's warehouse squat. So your warehouse provided this creative home for so many artists of the early 80's. When did you get your own big break and land that record deal?

TOYAH: I actually think my big break started when my first TV (show) went on BBC Two. It was called “Glitter” (1976). A superstar called Maximilian Schell was watching with the brilliant actress Kate Nelligan, and they invited me to join them at the National Theatre. That was a big break because I was working with Kate Nelligan, Brenda Blethyn and Warren Clark

I went from astounding job to astounding job and I eventually ended up starring opposite Katharine Hepburn in a movie called “The Corn is Green”. (It was) directed by George Cukor, who directed Judy Garland in “A Star Is Born”

When I was doing that, the production office of a movie called “Quadrophenia” opened next door. The director, Franc Roddam, asked me to get Johnny Rotten through a screen test (for the role of “Jimmy” which went to Phil Daniels), which I did. Then I didn't hear anything and I knew he hadn't cast “Monkey” in the movie of “Quadrophenia” so I stalked Franc Roddam every day. I was outside his office window saying “give me the job”. I got the job

So I was getting a lot of attention. Everyone knew “Quadrophenia” was going to be a big movie. I had a call from a record label called Safari. (They said) could I go and do a kind of promotional concert in front of the heads of Safari? I got the signing. We got signed to Safari Records for about five albums and that was my big break. It took a bit of time. I was a quite a controversial, oddball punk artist for the first releases

Then I was working with a writer called Keith Hale, who'd written a song called “It's A Mystery”, which was a 28 minute music track. We turned that into the single format with a verse chorus, verse, chorus. I wasn't confident about it. It was very feminine at a time when I really didn't want to be gender specific, but it just took off. But the biggest irony is that my costume designer, Melissa Caplan, who designed for us all back then, couldn't get my outfit to me (on time)

I was gender neutral at the time but I had to wear a dress on Top Of The Pops. It was a beautiful dress (below). It was by David Bowie's designer, Willie Brown. I wore that dress and I looked gorgeous - I looked feminine. I went straight to number four in the charts

JACKIE: How amazing. I remember buying that single. You were the equivalent of watching the female version of David Bowie when you were on TV. It was like “OK, what is this? What am I seeing right now? I've never seen anything like this before”

TOYAH: I love that. Thank you

“It's A Mystery” plays

JACKIE: How did you deal with the overnight fame that came with having such a big hit?

TOYAH: I went literally from about four to five years of being in this hierarchy of artists in London to suddenly not being able to leave my front door unescorted. I loved every second of it. I didn't have paparazzi follow me that I know of, but it was pretty intense, and the workload was intense. I was doing at least 14 interviews a day, and those included photo sessions. Then I'd either be doing a TV show or a concert. I did really love it and I'm so grateful for it, but you lose yourself

I always talk about staying in touch with my authentic self. I think the most annoying thing as the years went on was people only saw the colour of my hair. You get this phenomena that everyone talks about that no one listens toyou because you represent something in the other person's life that remains fixed. So my first Top Of The Pops remained fixed in quite a lot of new fans heads

So as I moved on with new music, new hair colour, new styles ... they wanted that moment. They wanted you to remain how you were in that moment. That's quite hard to deal with. It makes you feel a bit trapped. But these days I am so grateful and so proud of what I've done and respectful of who and what I was. I really want to take my fans back to those moments, especially with the live show

I'm singing “It's A Mystery”, “I Want To Be Free”, “Thunder In The Mountains”, “Rebel Run”, “Good Morning Universe”. There's so many. I can see in their faces and their eyes that I've reconnected them to something that gives them clarity about themselves. For me it's a very deliberate move. I want to reshare that moment with them JACKIE: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I remember buying that record. I remember seeing you on Top Of The Pops the first time. It was important because it wasn't just a song I liked. You expanded my mind as well in that moment and that imprints itself on your memory TOYAH: It really does. I think that's why music is so special and so brilliant

JACKIE: I'm just looking at the Top Of The Pops database to see when your first appearance was -

TOYAH: Late February, early March 1981 JACKIE: Correct. Do you remember who was on the show with you?

TOYAH: Oh, I do. I think it was Midge Ure. There was the artist who sang ”Shaddap You Face” (Joe Dolce) There was The Human League and there was definitely Adam Ant

JACKIE: How lovely with Adam being a key figure very early on in your career that you were both on Top Of The Pops together TOYAH: I know and we toured together last year. It was a phenomenally successful tour

Adam And The Ants “Kings Of The Wild Frontier” plays

JACKIE: Let's talk about some of the highlights for you over the course of your career, Toyah. We must mention Toyah and Robert's “Sunday Lunch” on YouTube because it's such an anomaly, so unique. The incredible success of it helped a grateful nation through lockdown. Who saw that coming, eh?

TOYAH: I certainly didn't. We've made remarkable friends. Robert Plant is a regular friend. He comes with us to our local pub. Tony Iommi (of Black Sabbath), we see him socially now. Billy Gibbons from ZZ Top loved our version. And Alice Cooper's been in contact too. It's all because of the kind of stupidity of what we do in our kitchen JACKIE: Any other full circle moments for you?

TOYAH: I see Paul McCartney at least once a year. He awarded me a fellowship for LIPA (Liverpool Institute for Performing Arts) alongside Nile Rogers (below, in 2022). With Paul it's like you're with your brother. He makes you feel like family

JACKIE: It's the Liverpool Institute for Performing Arts that he is a founder of, right? TOYAH: Yes. So every year, when the students graduate, all the fellowship people come and support the students, which means that we get to socialise. Paul always attends and he's absolutely brilliant. The day I got my fellowship, Paul, Nile Rogers and myself were sitting on the stage for three hours together and I'm thinking “I wish my parents could see this”

Paul McCartney “Pipes Of Peace” plays

JACKIE: From 1983 “Pipes Of Peace” from Paul McCartney, providing a pretty special full circle moment for our guest, Toyah - one she wishes she could have shared with her parents. You have come such a long way from from a difficult childhood with a lot of challenges to this amazing career that has spanned 50 years and counting - and an enduring loving marriage of 40 plus years, which is not easy in this business. With the wisdom that time bestows upon us, what's the big life lesson for you? What are you realising at this moment in your life with this perspective?

TOYAH: I always say to people trust your instinctive inner voice. I was brought up to distrust everything and everyone and that's because of my mother's circumstance. My inner voice is really accurate. It's really strong and it's always right and that means everybody else's is too. I would say to anyone trust who and what you are JACKIE: I love that. That authentic self again, tuning into that. What song would you like us to wrap up this hour with, Toyah? TOYAH: Let me think ... I want to share some music with your audience. So I would probably go for Nirvana's “Smells Like Teen Spirit” because deep inside it proves in every decade we're still rebels

Nirvana “Smells Like Teen Spirit” plays

JACKIE: From 1991 “Smells Like Teen Spirit” from Nirvana, the final track of our Great Conversation hour, as chosen by tonight's special guest Toyah. Let's remind folks that the new “Songs and Stories” UK tour kicks off this Sunday in Chelmsford and is visiting 49 destinations across the nation. Or you can also see Toyah at the Rewind Festival this summer in Henley on Thames on August 23rd so I will definitely be seeing you there, Toyah

TOYAH: Come and say hello, please!

JACKIE: Oh, I certainly will. And the new book is called “Meteorite”. Is it available now?

TOYAH: Yes, it's available on the website awaywithmedia.com

JACKIE: Got it. All right, my lovely. All the best. What a pleasure to catch up

TOYAH: It's a pleasure. Thank you JACKIE: That's Toyah, such great company. I'm sure her shows are going to be so much fun too

Listen to the interview

Toyah Willcox: songwriter, performer, actress and TV presenter . . . a popular female icon with a larger-than-life rebellious character that emerged from Britain's late 70's punk explosion with more than a sprinkling of flamboyance and swagger Her music has meandered in style between New Wave, Gothic, Rock and Synthpop, but Toyah consistently pushes musical boundaries and today retains the respect of peers and fans for innovation and originality whilst sticking to her principles Blitzed editors Kurt and Bridget were delighted to speak with Toyah ahead of her forthcoming UK tour, album and book release BLITZED: Last year was a very busy one for you. You had four albums re-issued on Demon Records and Cherry Red, you had radio presenting, your short stories, touring, festivals, television appearances, and “Chameleon” entered the UK album charts

TOYAH: Yes, and I was so knackered by December! And funnily enough, the one thing that really knackered me was simply the travelling. I love the actual work, I love doing Greatest Hits Radio and I'm so grateful to Martin [Kemp] for going into the jungle. I was zipping all over the place. I remember I did an Adam Ant show in Glasgow and then played Union Chapel in London the next day, in Islington, and that was a killer

BLITZED: Going back to the Adam Ant gig, you looked like you were having fun there. Although it was Adam's audience, it was primarily yours as well

TOYAH: It was fabulous. It was absolutely my audience, but they probably haven't seen me for quite a while. There was a dedicated female concentration there that just truly loved him from the 80's into the 90's. And I thought, "Is this going to be tough? Am I intruding on his space?" But they were wonderful and it's probably critically one of the most important things I did last year because I think I won a new audience, and I kind of verified to myself that my music really does belong somewhere

I mean I'm well known, and people know the singles, but they don't necessarily know the albums. I stuck religiously to a punk setlist with Adam, I did with Big Country as well, and it just was the best reaction I've had for that music in a long, long time. It was lovely

BLITZED: Many young women have resonated with you, as one of the main female artists that inspired them musically and visually through the album sleeves, hair, the makeup and the overall look that went so well with the music TOYAH: And this is why my new “Meteorite” book is so visual, so thank you for that. I am kind of reclaiming the fact that I did all this back then, and I did it before many other people did it. So, the book is like we very subtly reclaimed my place in history and my place in time, and that's very deliberate. I'm really proud of everything I've done. I don't go to bed at night or wake up in the morning feeling bitter. I'm constantly trying to live in the present and what do I represent in the present and how do I do that? BLITZED: Who were the artists that you looked up to when you were starting out? TOYAH: I loved Suzie Quatro because she was so unique as a female musician at that time. I loved the women of Motown, but I was heavily into Marc Bolan, David Bowie, Alice Cooper, Roxy Music, all those really glamorous men, very into them. So, when I moved to London, I met a wonderful man called Glenn Marks, who gave me the hugest education in music, he culturally built me. And I bought Velvet Underground, Per Ubu, Kraftwerk, I just bought the right albums We had a punk band together, he was a singer, and I was a singer. But my relationship with him was a purely creative relationship of discovering what new punk bands were out there and buying fanzines, and he printed a fanzine as well. So culturally, I was moving at the speed of light in 1977, and then I met Derek Jarman and I went straight into meeting The Slits, Siouxsie Sioux, Gloria Mundi, who I loved, who had women in the band And Pink Military, Penetration, I thought Pauline Murray was incredible. So suddenly there were women in music, and they were incredible and powerful, and they were strong and empowered, Poly Styrene and really kind of tough fighting women BLITZED: You mentioned earlier the release of “Meteorite”, the definitive Toyah book, and it looks amazing. How did you feel about those historic images and memories, and about sifting through and collating putting the book together?

TOYAH: It was incredible really. I always found it really hard to connect to normality. On one page there is a picture of a gravestone, drawn by me when I was 14 . . . you've got Ozzy Osbourne, David Bowie and Mark Bolan. Putting it all together I just went cold when I saw that. All gone now. But I just think that something like that sums up who I am. I just find it very hard to be normal, and I think that page absolutely sums it up, that I just look for other signs on this planet of other things I'm really glad I had all that material. There are some things I deliberately included because they look incredibly banal, but they really sum up the industry. I actually had to count everything that went in my mouth. I had to write down the calories, and I had to be weighed every day. Even today, I get contracts, if I'm in a movie, that I'm not allowed to alter my weight during the movie That's understandable because if you watch “Some Like It Hot” with Marilyn Monroe, there's a sequence where she's being wooed by Tony Curtis, where she's put about a stone on in weight and they're having to cover her in a shawl, so it's really understandable if you've got a main role that you cannot alter your weight But back then, I knew that if I was to get on Top Of The Pops and to succeed and stay relevant at that time, I had to not put any weight on. So, I included all of that in the book. It's such a beautiful book, and you've got the various versions, the Luxe version with the CD album, then you've got the Super Luxe versions with the vinyl. It's in my favourite colour and it's a point of conversation as well. It's very much a visual history because I think that affects young people strongly I remember looking at book by a makeup artist called Verushka. She was a body painter, and she looked like Venus. She was beautiful, and inspirational to me. I've still got the book. I wanted “Meteorite” to have the same impact BLITZED: The exclusive album that comes with the book includes some new songs and you used Al in the creation of some of the demos. Can you tell us how you harnessed this technology that many people are very wary of already? TOYAH: I'm a lyricist, so I write as Toyah. I don't use Al for any of my creative writing. My short stories are all me, my lyrics are all me. But where you can use Al is as a tool to structure demos and I found that very, very useful. You can add your life experience and your creative theory into Al. Four or maybe five songs out of nine started with AI but that's with me putting in my lyrics, my keys, my voice and then I took them into the Smithy studio in Kempsey with Woody, who's my regular engineer and we stripped them down I replaced all the female voices that AI had generated ... It's weird because in the AI generated voice I could hear Gwen Stefani, I could hear Adele. I could hear Lana Del Rey . . . Al is snatching popular voices that it thinks I want to hear! It's scary. So I went in and I replaced all those vocals with my unique scan, like Bowie had his unique scan And then we stripped away Al instruments and put real musicians on. That's how we did it. But Andy at Away Media needed this project within seven days, and I could not put a band together in that time . . . no way . . . and record it So all AI is doing is just listening to the sounds and frequencies and emulating. But as a learning tool, and as a tool for someone who is learning-challenged it's phenomenal. It's like suddenly being able to be me, and to be able to see and to be able to speak. But I do think that it has to be limited so it cannot become a conscious entity

SHERRIE: I just want to say how excited I am because we've got (on the podcast) the most iconic singer that this country's had, the most talented woman. I can't tell you all the things this woman has done. Please welcome the wonderful Toyah Willcox. Hello, Toyah!

TOYAH: Yay! I am so excited, Sherry, firstly, to be back with you, but also I love Rhyl and I'm playing Lytham St Annes on the 29th of August. It's not being announced yet. And I have a huge announcement connected to Blackpool in August as well SHERRIE: Can you tell us about your huge announcement in Blackpool or not yet?

TOYAH: I can't. I've been in Blackpool virtually every month doing the planning of this. In a week's time I'm filming the event. It's really, really lovely and when it hits I'm so proud of what is going to happen. I took my husband up to Blackpool last month. I don't think he's ever been there. I drove him down the promenade and he said "Oh, this is amazing. I love it" 

SHERRIE: It is! The Blackpool Tower is one of the most wonderful places. I look at that tower every day and it's a different color. I love it. But I have to tell you something. I was Toyah Willcox in "The Russ Abbott Show" (A British sketch comedy series 1979 - 1996)(Toyah laughs) I couldn't send you the photo, so I'm going to show you this now. Can you see that?

TOYAH: Oh, you look fantastic! SHERRIE: (It was) 1982

TOYAH: You look wonderful. That's a great look! SHERRIE: I sang “It's A Mystery” but very, very badly because I can't sing. So everybody in the studio had to run off with their fingers in their ears but I was so proud to be you!

TOYAH: Oh, thank you. Did you have the lisp?

SHERRIE: I tried but I can't do what you can do with that lisp, because that's too sexy. I think it's fantastic. I'm not sexy. You are. But what I think is amazing about your story is your husband. I think your husband is just incredible.  I've always watched him, the best guitarist ever. Robert Fripp. How long have you've been together?

TOYAH: 40 years on May 16th (Toyah and Robert on their wedding day, above) SHERRIE: 40 years! What's that saying ... "you would've got out earlier if you'd killed somebody?” TOYAH: I know but because he's always been touring the longest we've lived together was in lockdown. We loved that. We shared this house. I now have my own home again. We've always had separate homes. (We've) never shared a bank account and maybe that's the secret -

SHERRIE: But you share a bed?

TOYAH: Yeah

SHERRIE: But that's different. Must be complex if you're not in the same house!

TOYAH: He's doing really well (now), but he had a heart attack last May. He's retired so he's mainly going to be doing producing and writing but he won't tour again. Now he's around permanently and I'm thinking when is he going to go on tour? SHERRIE: “I want him out of here!”

TOYAH: I want to be able to think!

SHERRIE: What was that you did in lockdown? Was it lunch something? TOYAH: “Sunday Lunch”

SHERRIE: Yes, so tell me about that?

TOYAH: It's still going strong. It started in lockdown as a connection with our fans and also a connection with people who didn't know what on earth was going on - who were actually stranded in different countries. So we just started reaching out and our first post had 100,000 visits. Last summer we were up to 150 million people visiting and we've had 17 million people in the last measuring period. It's just going up and up and up. We don't understand why

SHERRIE: Well, obviously people love listening to it. What do you talk about? Well, not boring things, obviously

TOYAH: Actually what we're incredibly connected to is being our full, authentic selves - especially at a time like this, when you don't know what is authentic about what you see. So on our “Upbeat Moments”, which is every Saturday at 6 pm - SHERRIE: This is a different thing, though, isn't it? This "Upbeat Moments", because I've watched you on that. I love that. You both take it in turns, don't you?

TOYAH: Yes and we just talk about our week and how we feel. Sometimes it's been a great week, sometimes it's been a surprising week, but it's very, very normal. There's no kind of production. There's no glitz about what we do. It is literally normal ground level life, and people seem to love it. And then every Sunday we go back to “Sunday Lunch”, which is completely outrageous most of the time

SHERRIE: Really? I've only seen your "Upbeats". I haven't seen your "Sunday Lunch". I'll watch it

TOYAH: Well, put it this way: I don't do nudity anymore. I'm 68 and honestly this body needs to be covered now. But during lockdown I looked amazing! I looked the best I've looked in my life at the age of 62 but that's all changing very quickly now. "Sunday Lunch" is music. It's Robert on guitar and it's some ridiculous scenario in the kitchen. We've got a wonderful one this Sunday. It's going to outrage people  

SHERRIE: Don't tell us. Let people watch. That's exciting, though, isn't it? Your career amazes me because you've gone from this punk girl that we know, that I joined in with, to do films and you've done television, narration. Do you like narrating?

TOYAH: Yeah. Love it

SHERRIE: You did "Teletubbies", didn't you?

TOYAH: Yeah, it was just two lines. I did it as a favor to my friend Dan Wood, the creator of Ragdoll Productions. (Puts on the Teletubbies voice) “Over the hills and far away, Teletubbies come out to play. The sun setting in the sky, Teletubbies say goodbye”. Before then I was 100% of all of the voices on “Brum” (a British kids TV series 1991 - 2002) (above) I did “Pob” (a British kids show "Pob's Programme" 1985 - 1990) with Nigel Kennedy

And I've done lots of nature documentaries. Now I write “Toyah's Wonderful World Of Weird”, which is a short story series that I write and then I narrate to camera. I try to do one a month

SHERRIE: What about animation? Have you done animation voices? I love animation. Any chance I get in to do a voice I do it TOYAH: I don't think I have SHERRIE: You should

TOYAH: I don't remember. I'll look into it

SHERRIE: It's about your lifestyle. You can create your own lifestyle around it. Because there's no travelling anywhere and now you're back living on your own there's no excuse

TOYAH: I'm travelling a lot this year. I'm doing 49 dates of a storytelling tour, right the breadth of the UK. That starts in March in Chelmsford SHERRIE: When you say a storytelling tour - what do you actually mean by that? TOYAH:  I have a book out called "Meteorite", which is a visual biography. It's just the most beautiful book and that is exclusively available on the tour. So I'm going to be doing two acts on the tour. I do five songs per act. I have two guitarists, one either side of me and I tell the stories from the book SHERRIE: And do you sing?

TOYAH: Yeah, I'll be doing five songs per act SHERRIE: Wow! I was saying about the world we live in now - it's a very difficult world for us all. You have to find something else in your life and create it. If you look at yourself there's plenty of stuff in there. You've just got to get it out and do things and that's what you're doing

TOYAH: Totally agree. I think it's a challenge that faces everybody every moment in time. I love to work and I admire you doing panto (mime). I stopped panto 12 years ago because of the introduction of weighted fire doors in theatres. I was tearing all of my tendons just opening the fire doors. I said to my agent I've either got to be on the stage or the side of the stage 100% of the time. I cannot continually open these fire doors

I was doing so much damage to my shoulders that we made the decision that unless I can be in a dressing room right by the wings I can't do that again. I did panto for 18 years and I did fabulous pantos. They were so exciting with great cast members. I loved it but I just can't put myself in a situation where I need surgery after doing 92 shows

SHERRIE: I know you have had problems in your life and surgery problems. How is that now? TOYAH: It's absolutely fine. I've had surgery successes. I did "Strictly (Come Dancing)" (a British celebrity dance competition show, above) last year. I would like to have done it 20 years earlier. So I did "Strictly" with a prosthetic in my hip and feet that are completely restructured. It was very painful in those shoes

But actually I found that "Strictly" made me the healthiest I've ever been. I felt really empowered and fabulous. I loved the training. I loved being with the team in the studio. My goodness, it was the best in the world. But I think if I did it 20 years earlier people could've seen how I originally moved

SHERRIE: What you could do?

TOYAH: Yes  SHERRIE: My mother and father were ballroom dancers. Particularly my mother was an amazing ballroom dancer but I always say there is a limit and there is a time - and it's not always the right time. It's the same with anything like "Dancing On Ice" (a British celebrity ice dancing competition) and "Strictly". You have to know your limits, otherwise you can be injured quite easily. I know people who did "Ice" who were injured TOYAH: Both in ice and ballroom dancing you're equal to Olympians. I saw them (the professional dancers on "Strictly Come Dancing") in the pain that you see professional ballet dancers in. They work through this constant pain barrier and the timing of what they do, the positions of what they do. It's miraculous

SHERRIE: I did ballet up to the age of 17 when I went on to do drama school and I didn't do ballet again. I remember watching the blood coming out of my ballet shoes as I was on pointe. So I know that pain. I look at "Strictly" now and I think people don't realise how hard it is

TOYAH: And they have blood in their shoes. That's dedication. It's incredible

SHERRIE: But you enjoyed it, though?

TOYAH: I loved the process and the being in the bubble of it. I've never come against such a tide of hate from outside

SHERRIE: What do you mean by tide of hate?

TOYAH: My memory of me actually being in the public forum of "Strictly" - well, put it this way - my lawyer has never been so busy with with fake accusations and all of that. I've never experienced anything like it. Have you done "Strictly"?

SHERRIE: No

TOYAH: It's unbelievable. I thought I'd go in there and I would be able to go on a journey and win people (over). My experience from the outside world was very hostile, but the actual bubble - and being in that bubble was one of the best things I've ever experienced

SHERRIE: Did you come to terms with it, though? Did you come to terms with the hatred that you got? Did you understand why? There can't be a reason for it, surely? 

TOYAH: I think it's just a very common side of social media. I can never understand why Meghan Markle is hit on. She's done nothing wrong that I can see. Her wedding was beautiful. Everyone loved her in this country and then suddenly it flipped. Being in that experience, which is like standing in front of a tidal wave, I thought oh, OK and I just didn't respond to it. I don't think you can feed it. It's click bait. So I didn't respond at all. I just let it go

I've always had a great legal team. There was one story when I left, where we were straight to Reuters (news agency) and they were brilliant. They pulled the story because we just said "look at what I said and look at how it's being reinterpreted". They agreed and pulled the story. But I've always been really hot on that. You know what it's like in the public eye. You just don't let something grow if it's not true

SHERRIE: There is a moment in your life when you go "do you know what? Blank it. Because I'm not interested"

TOYAH: Our time is precious. Your time is precious. I'm not wasting time on hate for anything

SHERRIE: They're what you call "keyboard warriors". They've got nothing to do apart from sit on that keyboard all day

TOYAH: I think it's something else also. It's an immaturity of experience. You and I - we've put our feet down on the ground. We've travelled. We've worked really hard. We've suffered exhaustion during stage runs. We've had a lot of experience

SHERRIE: And survived TOYAH: And survived. We are survivors. Sometimes I was hearing things back because I was only told about things that I needed to legally jump on. They said "it's children. You don't respond to children. They don't know any better. They are reacting because they are a fan of someone else. They'll do anything to put you lower down the leaderboard"

I have an incredible media team. If you've got 150 million people watching you in the world, you have a great media team. They could find where everything was coming from. We can actually pinpoint every address. It was very young children who love "Strictly". They love the professional dancers. They were playing a game and I just didn't join into that SHERRIE: Do you think it's the same on things like the jungle ("I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here!", a British celebrity survival show) (above)?  TOYAH: When I did the jungle 2003 we didn't have this social media. I had no idea what was going on. But similarly when I got home from the jungle, you then see the press cuttings and the judgment about your physical body and all of that. It never occurred to me in the jungle how extreme opinions become. But again, our time is too precious. We are both very positive people. I'm not going to waste an ounce of time on this planet dealing with irrational responses

SHERRIE: No, absolutely. I've always said that you have an edge about you. I hope I've got an edge about me. It's like don't mess with me because you'll come up far worse TOYAH: I've got a meeting today with an ex editor of "Now" magazine and Australian Vogue. I met them two weeks ago. This is about a new project. I'm exactly how I am with you today. At the end of the meeting she said "god, you've got a hard edge!" It's just survival

SHERRIE: Good! You need a hard edge and you need to get out there and tell them exactly what you think. Why wouldn't you? Why would you accept anything else? You and I have been around too long to put up with any bullshit. That's the end of the story. That's what I always say Do you have any regrets at all in your life? Do you go "what if I had done that?" Because I often do that in my head at night when I'm lying in bed. I won't sleep because I have insomnia

TOYAH: I have insomnia. I sleep between about 6 and 9 am 

SHERRIE: I don't know if you do this but I wake up and know exactly what time it is TOYAH: Yes, I always wake up at midnight SHERRIE: I wake at midnight. Then I'll wake at 2.30, then probably 4.30, 4.45 and I know exactly what time it is

TOYAH: It's when I watch movies. I was working with Carol Vorderman yesterday - 

SHERRIE:Really?! She's funny, isn't she?

TOYAH: She's fabulous! But the night before I couldn't sleep so I just stayed up watching movies. I watched “The Piano”, I watched “The Eyes Of Tammy Faye”, these fabulous movies. But let's get back to regrets. This is something I will never be able to let go of and I'm praying reincarnation is possible. I really regret that I never was encouraged to study music theorytechnicallyfurther than I did

So I really regret not stamping my feet with my parents and saying "I want piano lessons, I want guitar lessons. I want theory lessons". I am a natural musician. I'm a natural singer. I have perfect pitch but it's taken me years to actually get music through my fingers. I regret it so much. I have this present day argument with people because AI will wipe out the music industry if we let it. But for a dyslexic, it's the most valuable tool in the world

SHERRIE: I can understand that completely

TOYAH: So just before Christmas and I'm really going to name-drop here - I was invited to Clarence House to meet Queen Camilla. I went with Robert and we walked there with the professor who created AI and won the Nobel Prize for it. I was walking down The Mall and I said to him "I am so grateful for AI, because dyslexic minds just race too quickly. I can get all of that info into Dictate (a speech-to-text system) and into AI at the speed I think and it's made things possible for me." And twice he said to me "you will be replaced". I said "no, it's making me grow". And he said "you will be replaced". He was adamant SHERRIE: But did he explain why and how?

TOYAH: Yes. We've all become algorithms, which is why I will not respond to hate. Hate creates the most reward experience. It creates the most emotional responses. Algorithms feed on this. If you tell AI something and it draws that instant aggressive response, they're going to keep you aggressive. So with me and my relationship with AI is getting the right words because I am "Mrs. Malarop" (a character in a play "The Rivals" (1775) that uses the wrong words)

It's getting the message across, getting it out of there because it's been locked in my head thanks to not taking education seriously and becoming a more expressive artist. He said that algorithms will just build you, replace you and ignore what they don't get reward from. I'm paraphrasing but that was in the conversation

SHERRIE: Did that frighten you? TOYAH: I thought I felt a bit bullish about it actually, because it's helping me be super creative. I just persevered. I said "you've got to bear in mind, there's people with educational difficulties that are really going to benefit from this. They will have a normal life because of this". I was bullish. I think he actually gave up on me in the end SHERRIE: Good. That's why we have to move forward and you can't take (on) people like that. I know you have to take them seriously, but you have to be your own person and go forward TOYAH: We have to be authentic. I'm fascinated by the Beckham story at the moment about Brooklyn Beckham who's estranged. I actually feel for him when he said in his statement that he needs to be his authentic self. I totally understand it SHERRIE: I understand that. But Cruz (the younger brother) is going along with him now. Look at the Beckhams and the life they've lived. It's not a normal life, is it? So they have their own way TOYAH: They're a family, they live in the public eye. That's tough in itself. We've seen what can happen to what appear to be very beautiful people. They are suddenly in the arena and facing the lions and I don't understand why

SHERRIE: I think it's the world we live in. If you're an insomniac, everything, when you hit that pillow, starts to go through your head. You then start to create this really weird world that we live in, and you have to come out of it. Then you have to wake up, if you've had some sleep, and live this life that we live - which is why I'm fascinated by all the things you do. Noel Fielding is a friend of yours, isn't he?

TOYAH: Oh, I love Noel!

SHERRIE: What was the weird film you did with him?  TOYAH: “Ahhhhhhhh!” where we all played humans that only talked ape. It is totally outrageous SHERRIE: And it's still around if you wanted to see it? TOYAH: Yes, it's its 10th anniversary this year. You can order it. You can see it on Sky and Amazon. It is totally outrageous. I mean, it is XXX rated. But we had so much fun doing it

SHERRIE: You had a very good cast with you as well TOYAH: The cast were incredible. Julian Barratt played my husband. Julian Rhind-Tutt played my lover. Steve Oram (below with Toyah), who's often in horror movies, was the creator, director and the lead. We had a very good fun shoot

SHERRIE: Didn't you do something with Katharine Hepburn? TOYAH: Yes, when I was 19. It was “The Corn Is Green”, the Welsh play by Emlyn Williams. Katharine loved Wales and she wanted to produce and make this movie. She produced it with George Cukor, the director who discovered Marilyn Monroe and directed Judy Garland in "A Star Is Born". They came to England and held auditions. Katharine said she fell in love with me the moment she met me. I played the young antagonist. We went to Wales. We shot in Wales. What I loved about doing this is Katharine loved meeting real people. She would meet everyone in the villages we worked in. She would even have supper, lunch, sometimes breakfast with them She was so generous. Her spirit was generous. When we did the interior scenes in Wembley (studios) someone broke onto the set. We were filming one of my big scenes and Katharine spotted them behind the scenery. She walked out of the scene, stopped the shoot and grabbed the person. It was my father! She said "who are you?" My father's called Beric. He said "I'm Beric, I'm Toyah's father". I was mortified and she took him to lunch! SHERRIE: No way! Wow! I've always admired Katharine Hepburn and the fact that you've actually worked with her, because she has a strange quality. Does she really, in real life, have that kind of - TOYAH: All the A-listers I've worked with - Lawrence Olivier, John Mills, I've worked with them all and at the National Theater as well. They all have very large auras, not egos, but auras. Aura's glow. They're fabulous to be with SHERRIE: I knew Steve McQueen. It's a long story, so I won't bore you with it, but I met him and he had the most amazing aura. And Paul Newman, both of those guys. Just breathtaking. You couldn't speak in their presence TOYAH: I found that with Roger Daltrey. I played his wife in a movie about 1984 ("Murder: The Ultimate Grounds For Divorce") We had to do intimate scenes and sequences and I was (pretends to stutter) SHERRIE: You didn't go there, did you? TOYAH: Oh, god no! I'm friends with his wife, Heather. I love men and I'm always absolutely bowled over by male beauty. Perhaps not so much now I'm older, but  I've always felt so lucky as an actress to have beautiful male actors SHERRIE: I've worked with some and I did regret not sleeping with some of them if I'd have had the chance. But did I have the chance? I don't know. I might have had the chance TOYAH: That's never happened to me because I'm too short and too dumpy SHERRIE: You're the same height in bed and when you stand up so it doesn't make any difference what height you are TOYAH: Yeah but I don't have what men are looking for SHERRIE: You do! Of course you do. It's when you look back and you think that would have been fun. I could have had a story there. But I was too shy and too silly. Harrison Ford was another one, but only because he said "do you play around?" And I didn't know what he meant  TOYAH: How long ago was that? SHERRIE: Was that when EMI (a film and production hub) was at Borehamwood. So it would have been in the 70's. He was beautiful. Absolutely stunning. He'd sit it in the corner and contemplate what he should be doing. I'm sure he's a very different man now. I was just gobsmacked by him. He asked me out for dinner and I went, but there were 15 other women at the same table

TOYAH: Greta Scacchi (above with Toyah in 1984) told me this. Greta doing a movie in New York with him. I think it was “Indecent Proposal” (she means "Presumed Innocent", 1990) She was invited to dinner and there were 15 women around the table SHERRIE: He obviously does this all the time. Well, not now TOYAH: His wife was there when Greta was there. But yeah, if I was a beautiful man I'd do the same

SHERRIE: So would I. Anyway I didn't and wouldn't and couldn't and I'm a different person now. I can't now because I'm too old! Anyway, I want to talk about your book again. Tell me all about it?

TOYAH:  It's already out. It's selling on Amazon and on my website (Gets the book to show Sherrie) It's my favorite color. Very beautiful. I wanted it to be visual because, as a dyslexic, visuals are stronger to me than printed word. So it's a visual autobiography. I mean, how beautiful is that? SHERRIE: So who did all that for you? TOYAH: This is all from my archive. I spent 10 days in Dictate meetings where we dictated my story. I had a wonderful writer called Carl. I can't remember his surname, but he put all the words together. Then I had the most astonishing book designer called Michelle, who pieced it all together. But this has all come from my private archive. It's called "Meteorite" because I love the term "shooting star". I love the term star, but I sometimes think I'm more of a meteorite than I am a glowing, perfect star

SHERRIE: It's absolutely stunning. So now you're going on this tour? TOYAH: Yeah, the tour is stories and songs. We're doing lovely town theaters, 49 dates this year. We might put some more in in the autumn. I'm doing two movies this year. I'm the lead in both of them. Small British budgets. I've got to be available for those. But the theatre tour - I want it to be uplifting and inspirational. There's a story in my life that the book opens with. I had a very bad relationship with my mother

My mother's childhood was destroyed by her father murdering her mother. This went on to shape my life and my family's life, because none of us knew. It didn't come out till ancestry.com contacted me because the newspaper cuttings became available in the public arena. They said "you need to know this". My mother was the most pessimistic, sometimes the most cruel human being I have ever known, but she was also the most protective mother. She was a paradox. She made me, all of us, really mad. If you said to her “please don't put sugar in my tea” she'd put the whole bowl in. If you said to her you're allergic to raspberries, she would give you a bowl of raspberries. It was madness

She needed help. She needed therapy and she never asked for it. But I want my story to start with a song, which is one of my first singles called “Bird In Flight”. It's the moment I left home. When I left home I could fly. That's my story. I don't want any woe is me. The surgery ... well, I've benefited from the miracle of medicine. That's a good story. I left home. I benefited by being free. It's all good news. I want my evening to be funny. I want it to be really outrageous and it will be outrageous SHERRIE: Going back to your mother - when she died did you look back and think if I'd have known, what could I have done?

TOYAH: Yes because I felt furiously protective towards her. When I was in my 30's I bought the family house so they didn't lose their home. Then when I hit 50, I bought them a retirement cottage on the river Avon. I was furiously protective of them. I could not understand how someone could be so dysfunctional. The two days before she lost consciousness, she was screaming for me at the hospice because I just played Manchester Pride, and I went straight to the hospice and sat with her. She needed me there, because I have faith. I don't believe in death. Death is a stupid word. Nothing dies. We just transition. We go on

She wanted me there because she just couldn't believe that something very special was about to happen. I sat with her. She had a friend in who was a devout Christian, which I never understood until after her death, when we realised her friend was trying to give us some optimism. A mother and daughter, who could not be in the same room as each other ever, we were together those last two days and it was very powerful. But I don't want my show to be about grief. I want it to be about the exceptional person I became because of circumstance

SHERRIE: It's about celebration, not grief and your mother would agree with that, wouldn't she? TOYAH: She was a remarkable woman. She was a beautiful dancer. She danced at Lytham St. Anne's, Blackpool. My father saw her on the pier at Weston-supe-Mare. She was a remarkable woman who had her life stolen from her by her father. But let's celebrate the positive

SHERRIE: Did you know her father? TOYAH: No, because my mother was 16 when it happened. She had a 24 hour chaperone that point on until she married my father. My father never knew why. He was never alone with her until the wedding. At the night of the wedding, the chaperone, who was a woman who lived with my mother 24/7 said “right, she's yours now” because the father was still alive and considered dangerous SHERRIE:That's an amazing story

TOYAH: I'll have to turn it into a drama

SHERRIE: Absolutely. You should write it TOYAH: These are the situations that made me who and what I am today. I hope I'm a positive, inspiring person

SHERRIE: You are to everybody. Also, on a lighter note, can I just say your outfits through your lifetime as Toyah Willcox are just mind-blowing! Did they come from you or somewhere else? TOYAH: There's always a team involved

SHERRIE: But it's you, though?

TOYAH: I hope this isn't (cultural) appropriation, but I'm so inspired by Kabuki theatre and really inspired by the culture and the beliefs and the lifestyle of the Masai. Quite a few of my songs are about their rituals, which I believe are really healthy rituals - where young boys go into the wasteland and have to kill a boar and cannot come back till they've made that kill because it proves they can protect a family. I just always believed in these cultures and they're very reflective in my work and in what I wear

When I started I didn't want to be female. I wanted to be third gender, which was a non-specific gender. So all of those clothes covered me up, but they told a story. They told a story about the cultures I love. I realised by the time we got to about 1980 and I was on the movie “Quadrophenia” - if I didn't become female specific, I was not going to get work. I had to join them because I couldn't beat them at that point SHERRIE: Were you beyond your time then? Because that's exactly what's happening now TOYAH: I didn't want to be male or female SHERRIE: That's quite interesting. You would have been thought of as a little bit odd, strange, mad TOYAH: I still am! Everyone thinks I'm peculiar! As a woman I was constantly judged by having legs that weren't long and attractive and a body shape that was just too muscular. I was too short for the camera. It was always wrong, wrong, wrong. And I just went well, fuck you. I'll be non-gender

SHERRIE: "Here I am, this is what I am". I totally agree with you, but you're right - it was a (different) time, wasn't it? Now it wouldn't matter

TOYAH: It was a very different time. If you were beautiful and glamorous you would work a lot, but you'd have to put up with a lot as well. I've seen everything you have done. I love everything you have done. I love everything from “Carry On” (films) through to even "Benny Hill (Show)", but it was a (different) time

SHERRIE: This thing with woke and everything. There are warnings on things like “Dad's Army”. I find that bizarre, because what are we warning people about? What are we all supposed to be afraid of? I think it's difficult, isn't it, to know where this word woke came from, and where it sat there But I understand and I say to people "listen - that was then - you can't wipe that out". Like what ... we're going to wipe them all out and there's going to be nothing left and we don't look back TOYAH: And also it doesn't mean that we've remained those people SHERRIE: No! That's what I say! TOYAH: I don't like hearing derogatory things about the different races in the world. I think it's cruel and it always has been cruel. I've never had to say those things as an actress, thank goodness. But we were in a situation in “Quadrophenia” where beautiful, wonderful, very loved Trevor Laird was not allowed to date a white girl in the story because the film would not be distributed in the south part of America SHERRIE: Seriously!? TOYAH: We all talked about going on strike. We were powerless and we, as a team of actors, just came forward and said "what are you thinking? This is inhuman". But because there are these subject matters in the kind of “Love Thy Neighbour” (a 1970's sitcom that used racist language) it doesn't mean we've remained the same people. I've been on a huge educational curve because I do motivational speaking About 15 years ago, the singer Hazel Dean's lovely daughter Stevie pointed out that if I love Boadicea, Mata Hari and all of these very white female protagonists - and I was talking about Florence Nightingale - Stevie pointed out to me that Florence wasn't the one that did all that. It was a black nurse. I've been on this massive learning curve trying to learn everything. Re-see it through the eyes of today, because I had a very white education. There's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with changing how you see the world SHERRIE: Yeah but you do it in a certain way. Not with aggression, not with hatred - like you said, your "Strictly" journey. People are too quick to fire up and go "yes, but if we'd have done that" or "don't do that". Life isn't that. It's a gentle journey. Don't fight everything that you see When I did the “Russ Abbot's Saturday Madhouse” - there are things in that you couldn't show now because it is wrong, but you don't fight back and go "oh, that's terrible. Oh, be very careful" because otherwise you're fighting yourself and we'll all end up like that TOYAH: Look at the other side of that coin. You and I have so much experience and so much knowledge that we would really like to share. I'm often asked by very young students how do you get into the music industry? How do you get the experience of engineering in a studio? So I tell them the best, most active studios to apply to knowing that most people can do everything at home now on one computer Young people need to experience life out there, to experience what it's like to be with a diva in a studio, in front of a camera. You have to handle people because you are going to be working, if you're lucky, with very successful people who have time for no one but themselves. You've got to be able to handle that SHERRIE: You've got to give these kids some life skills. If a young actress says to me "how do I start?" I say go to a theatre. Go and brush the stage. Go make tea. Go and watch those people and never stop watching. Never stop learning. In my great age now I still learn. Every time I see anything I'm learning. It might not be good, it might be bad, but I'll learn Don't sit at home and go "I can do this all on my phone". These bloody phones. They're a nightmare with teenagers now. I've got grandchildren who will speak to each other on the phone and they're just there next to each other. Put them down! But life is strange now with that TOYAH: I don't phone anyone now. I used to phone friends all the time. We do go out to lunch a lot but just having a relaxed phone call doesn't happen anymore in my life - which is very weird

HOLLY: My guest today is English singer songwriter, actress and presenter Toyah Willcox. Toyah rose to prominence in the late 1970's and early 1980's as a distinctive voice of the new wave and punk movement. Fronting the band Toyah, she achieved major UK success with her 1981 album “Anthem” and hit singles including “It's A Mystery” and “Thunder In The Mountains”, which both peaked at number four in the UK Singles Chart, respectively, and earned her multiple Brit Award nominations Beyond music, Willcox has maintained a diverse career in film, theatre and television, performing on stage at the National Theatre and appearing alongside Phil Daniels, Ray Winston and Sting in The Who's rock opera film “Quadrophenia”. She is married to guitarist Robert Fripp of King Crimson, and we do discuss in this chat their creative and rather humorous videos they post on social media We touch upon Toyah's life growing up in this chat, her surprising thoughts on AI in songwriting and where on earth she gets all that energy from. Welcome to "Popnerd", Toyah. Thank you so much for joining me today

TOYAH: It's a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me

HOLLY: This for you is a big year of performances. You've got Henley on Thames, you're performing at "Rewind", you've got some Christmas shows, but you start things off with this marvelous tour called "An evening with Toyah - Songs and Stories". What can we expect with this show?

TOYAH: It's a visual show. Because everything I do I prefer to be visual. It's how I work. Music for me is a very visual thing. When video came into being around 1981, when it really took off with MTV, it was fantastic for me because I just have always written music with visuals in my head. So with the “Songs And Stories” tour we have a small screen and the visuals will be up there, but they'll be synced to what I'm doing

So the whole thing, like when I sing a song, will be synced to the official video. When I'm telling stories about working with Katharine Hepburn and Lawrence Olivier (below with Toyah, Greta Scacchi and Roger Rees in the 1984 film "The Ebony Tower") there will be photos to accompany it

Also there'll be some behind the scenes photos. So I want to immerse my audience in my experience, and also inspire the audience to believe in themselves. We live in a world of saturation. I think many people have dreams that they've never visited, or ideas that they've just let go of as soon as they thought of them

I just want people to go out of my show on this particular tour and think “oh, my goodness, I really want to have a go at that. I really want to see if I can do something in my life that I've always intended to do but have never been encouraged to do”. I'm really into that. I'm hoping that I'll inspire people to just look at their own creativity

HOLLY: This is a message that has been woven through a lot of your music throughout your whole career. I'm just thinking of "I Want To Be Free" or something like that. I can imagine you performing that and feeling the same sentiment that you had when you first performed it

TOYAH: Well, I feel it even more now. That song means more to me now than ever before - but so do most of my hit songs because it's a shared experience, yet again, with the audience. When I sing, “I Want To Be Free”, "It's A Mystery" or even "Rebel Run" I see the audience being taken right back to a memory of old, which they're revisiting. It's highly emotional

Most of the time I'm looking out at people that sometimes are in tears because I've taken them back to being with their parents or their first kiss. I always say with “I Want To Be Free” I hope it takes you back to your first detention (Holly laughs)

But that song is not a novelty song. It's a song from a severely dyslexic human being. Even my parents told me I would amount to nothing, let alone my educational background and that song really means something to me. It's got such truth in it

The most prized memory I have of this song is in 2018 when Derek Jarman's movie “The Jubilee” was brought to the stage by a gender neutral cast. They chose that song as a representative of who and what they are in their generation. That was just so profoundly powerful for me

HOLLY: It's really interesting because you touched upon your dyslexia as a child. I'm really interested to go back to your childhood. You were someone who really championed the arts and acting and singing and music. Did you come from a musical household? Was that something that was really encouraged?

TOYAH: When I was very young I had absolutely no idea that I was perceived as someone with learning difficulties. So my very young childhood was very naive but incredibly happy. My mother was a professional dancer from the age of 12 till 19, when she got married. She toured alongside people like Max Wall, the comedian, and many of the vaudeville stars of the time. She was a very beautiful woman. She was like a beauty queen as well

So I inherited some of that. My father loved music, but he was tone deaf. He used to put on the Coldstream Guards (an regiment in the British Army) every morning and sing along to it but in one note. There was only one note and it used to drive me bonkers (Holly laughs)

So in my childhood I remember as being very happy, but then it just took a sinister turn. In the early to mid 60's there was a stock market crash and my father was hit by that. So by the time I was 12 my parents were going to lose the home and lose everything. By the time I was 16 I was the breadwinner and that's fine. I remained the breadwinner right through to when they died. I bought the family home so they could stay in in their home. I bought them a retirement home and I financially supported them

I thought that's what I was supposed to do. I don't resent that, but it made life very challenging. I could never have a day off. That feeling of "I will be punished by losing my home if I ever take time off" has never left me. But creatively that desire to be as creative as I am came from being told I will amount to nothing

HOLLY: Wow, that's crazy. That's just crazy, isn't it?

TOYAH: Well, today I'm so inspired by people telling me I'm no good at what I do (Holly laughs) Honestly, if you want me to work twice as hard as I already work, tell me I'm no good at what I do because I will prove you wrong

HOLLY: But then that's what helped create the unique Toyah sound. That's what brought you that amazing sound and that sound world. That punky energy that you had in the late 70's, early 80's period

TOYAH: I agree. But I think one of the biggest things that contributed to my creativity, and I do a lot of creative writing today, was discovering the book “The Lord of the Rings”. It took me three years to read. Literature really meant a lot to me, and that literature, again, was visual. When I read a book it's a film in my head. That emotion and that drive and that endorphin lift from reading a great book just makes me want to write music and sing and storytell through music

HOLLY: I know in your songs you've referenced Shakespeare and Carl Jung and all sorts of figures. I'm going to hazard a guess here. Are you the kind of person who writes lyrics first before you write a melody when you're writing a song?

TOYAH: In this present day I do write lyrics first. When I was contributing as a co-writer on “Posh Pop” (the 2021 album) I was writing on guitar and coming up with chord sequences first. It's a little of both. I have to say, with the advent of AI I can put lyrics into AI and they're teaching me how to scan them. What I mean by that is I sometimes have to dilute my lyrics for how I scan as a singer. This is how I place words within a tune

AI is helping to teach me to use a different scanning that I can fit more complex words into a line. The prime example of someone who scans brilliantly is Taylor Swift and Lana Del Rey. Their scanning is unbelievable. I never learned to do that. No one ever taught me to do it, but AI is teaching me. So I can put a lyric that I really want to keep pure and I really need it to tell the story to get to the chorus - I can put that in AI and it will scan it to 4/4 (timing) for me. Then I create the melody

HOLLY: Wow, that's so interesting. It's so cool

TOYAH: I'm having this argument with quite a lot of people because they just don't want AI in music. I've always had a problem with how to scan. You can hear it on the very first two albums I made, which I think is what makes them so unique. I'm slightly off the beat and now I don't have to be off the beat. I can learn how to scan

HOLLY: Wow, that's so fascinating because I think a lot of musicians are very against AI. It's got quite a bad press, but it actually can be used to really help and hone that creativity

TOYAH: Yeah. I will not let AI replace me, which is the argument. AI learns everything we do and it can replace you. With me it's just lifting the frustration out of my life and saying "you can fit that word into this melodic line"

HOLLY: It's really cool. Your melody lines are so fascinating to me. They're really quite angular and you push your voice to the extremes in quite a lot of your songs. I'm interested to know do you sit at a piano and write those kind of lines or does it just come to you like "this is what I'm feeling and this is what I'm giving it"?

TOYAH: When I write a line it belongs somewhere but hasn't yet been given its place. So (for example from "Thunder In The Mountains") “where the mountains meet the sea” - that was visually stronger to me the moment I wrote it. Then I thought "well, how do I represent that in music?" Then I just ... I don't know. I go somewhere deep inside me to do with my base chakra or my solar plexus and I just think "OK, we're looking at these chords. How can I make those words resonate as powerfully within music as they do within the image that's in my head" 

So it's all just making connections. With “IEYA”, which is off "The Blue Meaning", which my long term die-hard fans really love - I wanted something that they just represented. The human being shouting beyond the ether into the universe and I just chose those syllables. That is a purely emotional, emotive chorus. Whereas “I Want To Be Free” is an absolute statement

HOLLY: Absolutely. It's so interesting. He's a very different sort of performer to you, but I watched an interview with Rick Astley -

TOYAH: Oh, I love him!

HOLLY: He's great, isn't he? He was talking about how when he sung songs written by (the producers) Stock, Aitken and Waterman they were really tricky to sing because they would really push him vocally to the limits. The songs would be quite high

TOYAH: That's a scanning thing as well. Stock, Aitken and Waterman write on the piano. They do a scanning of the words on the piano, which is constructed through the fingers. If you aren't vocally acrobatic like Mariah Carey or Celine Dion or Adele, it sometimes doesn't suit your vocal style or the muscular use of your vocal cords. I totally get what Rick Astley is saying. So where did he come out of that conversation?

HOLLY: He was saying with Stock, Aitken and Waterman it sat really high and they'd really push him to the limit. But when he writes his own songs it sits really comfortably. He sits it in the middle of his range. I feel you're sort of the opposite of that. "It's A Mystery" - which I know you contributed to a little bit feels more straightforward vocally. Then something like “Neon Womb” sits very low and it goes very high. You're really happy to push your vocal range to the extreme and I love that

TOYAH: I love performing "Neon Womb". It was one of the first songs that I co-wrote with (guitarist) Joel Bogen and (keyboardist) Pete Bush - 

HOLLY: Who were in your band at the time -

TOYAH: They were in my first band. "Neon Womb" was on "Sheep Farming In Barnet" (the 1979 album) and it's one of the first tracks I ever recorded. Within a live performance I like to feel possessed by the music. I like something else to come into my body in a completely different experience

So with “Neon Womb" and "IEYA" - when I sing those it's as if I've touched the higher self and I'm just completely taken over. Something comes into the body that plays my body like an instrument. "It's A Mystery" was written by a man and it was written for a man's voice, which is why it's a slightly more stable vocal line

HOLLY: Yes, interesting. It's very cool. When you're getting ready for these performances that are vocally quite challenging and a big performance, how do you warm yourself up for that? Are you doing vocal exercises and warming up the body and that sort of thing, or do you just go out there and rock it?

TOYAH: There's very split decision on this, because I know so many people that do do vocal warm ups. I never do because I suffer from nerves. I mean very good nerves before a performance. The tension goes right into my body and if I start doing a warm up it's signaling to my body that I'm about to put it through a shocking experience. So the best thing that I can do is relax

I pace, I constantly walk. I sometimes hum very low, but I never ever use my voice until I'm in the the atmospheric air of the performance arena. You can warm up all you want in a centrally heated dressing room but once you get onto that stage, the humidity of the audience is completely different. So I always open with a song that is relatively easy for me to sing

HOLLY: Nice. So that's the warm up 

TOYAH: That's the warm up. Then I start to open the vocal cords. I have to open my vocal chords before I do “Thunder In The Mountains” or they will shut down. So I find the second song is usually something I can open up the vocal chords to like “Echo Beach”. That way I don't start coughing when I go into the chorus of “Thunder In The Mountains”

HOLLY: Absolutely. You touched upon "Echo Beach" there. You're someone who's done numerous fantastic covers of songs. The one that really sticks out to me is your wonderful performance of “Slave To The Rhythm” by Grace Jones. Am I right in thinking you sung the demo of that song?

TOYAH: Yes, I was on the original demo when it was being formed and written

HOLLY: Amazing. You've also sung (Frankie Goes To Hollywood's) “Relax” as well. So you've done a couple of Trevor Horn tracks

TOYAH: Trevor, after he heard Simon Darlow's (below on the left, with Toyah and her husband Robert) and my version of “Slave To The Rhythm”- because Simon Darlow is one of the original writers of it - Trevor invited me to do "Relax". It's an interesting story. He wanted it to be a robotic version, possibly AI, but he wanted a robot voice singing “Relax”. The record label in Germany didn't accept it. They said no, it had to be a human. So he asked me if I would do it. The record company accepted that, but he very much wanted me to sing it robotically

HOLLY: In a lot of your songs you're often not the sole songwriter. There's you and a few others members of your band. Has collaboration always been quite an important aspect to you of music making?

TOYAH: It's very important when it comes to arrangement. I can send a song in that has the basic chords, it has the full lyric and the vocal melody, but I can't do what a band does. So it's really important to have that collaboration and respect that collaboration, because they bring something to the song that makes it more fully formed

HOLLY: I can totally imagine that. Moving on to what you're doing with your life, performances and everything coming up. I'm part of Generation Z, which is people who were born between 1997 and 2012 but we're quite a nostalgic generation. We're very much looking back at a time which we weren't actually around for I'm interested to know, particularly with your YouTube channel that you do with your husband, Robert Fripp, and also your live shows - have you noticed that people are bringing maybe their sons and daughters along? Or younger people are coming along instead of just people who lived through that era?

TOYAH: Absolutely, very much. My audience age is very, very mixed. There's less eighty year olds because they don't live as long. But I remember this show where there was an eighty year old lady standing right by the speaker. I said "are you going to be okay there?" Because that's really loud, but she had a lovely time

At the front there's lots of very young people. I think some of them are trans, a lot are definitely gay. Very young, between 18 and 20 and then they start to get around 30 upwards. A lot in their 60's, because I'm going to be 68 this year. I like it. It's a really nice mix. It's a very friendly mix HOLLY: Yes, and I imagine a very accepting audience of everybody who's in it, particularly with the message of your music as well

TOYAH: Oh, within an audience there's no judgment whatsoever. I'm totally accepting

HOLLY: Touching on the younger generation and social media - you have a fantastic social media presence and the videos you're doing. There's stories, there's covers, there's showing your bunny rabbit. There's also just a real eye opening world into the world of Toyah and Robert Fripp. It's fantastic TOYAH: Well, we're two very, very straight vanilla human beings - until you put a camera in front of us HOLLY: Yeah, that's not the vibe I get at all. Vanilla! Wow!

TOYAH: We're not into sadomasochism. We're not into plural sex (Holly laughs) We are really vanilla. But what we do on our videos is try and say “what are you calling normal?" Nothing is normal. What you see you may think is normal, but is what you see the only reality?

We're also trying to say OK, we're pensioners, but it doesn't mean you disappear and it doesn't mean you don't have the same rebellion you had when you bought your Rolling Stones albums. We're questioning what reality is all the time and that's gone down really well

HOLLY: Absolutely yeah, for sure. It's holding on to an amazing legacy that you've already got, of amazing songs that both you and Robert have done together and separately as well. I saw an interview with an actor from "Stranger Things" called Finn Wolfhard. I don't know if you watch "Stranger Things". I know you quite like horror things. He was asked, "what are your four top favorite films?" and the first film he said was “Quadrophenia”

TOYAH:Yay!

HOLLY: And I thought, yes, there she is. There's Toyah. He's in his early 20's and he wasn't around when "Quadrophenia" was out. I just thought this is incredible. This is somebody who wasn't there, and yet it's one of his favorite all time films TOYAH: "Quadrophenia" is big in LA

HOLLY: It's huge!

TOYAH: It's huge. It still has conventions and it is big around the world. It is that kind of cult film that's really a smash hit

HOLLY: Absolutely. Did you realise how much of a legacy that film and how much of a cult following that was going to have?

TOYAH: When we were making it we knew it was good. We knew the cast was good. We knew the director, Franc Roddam, was great. We knew The Who were wonderful. We knew but when it came out it was critically not well received. But over the years it's grown and grown and grown by audience strength and audience demand. The thing with critics and criticism - I've never found it accurate. I've never, sadly, in my case, found it truthful

I've had reviews where we knew the reviewer wasn't in the room. But the wonderful thing about social media is we now can expose the people that do that. With “Quadrophenia”, with your example of the actor from “Stranger Things” - he's discovered the film and he loves it and that's all that matters

HOLLY: It's extremely cool. So I suppose, going back to your music, similarly - did you take note of what critics were saying or did you very much feel like "this is what I'm doing and this is how I am"?

TOYAH: I do react very much to criticism. Therefore, I don't always read it because my reaction is personal. When a critic writes something, they're not thinking about the person. They're thinking about the time they feel they wasted being there. So I don't generally read the criticism. My team are very good at sending the good reviews to me (laughs) HOLLY: (laughs) “Look at this!”

TOYAH: “Look at this!” You really can do it. You really are good.” It's very interesting. The most important critics to me are my audience

HOLLY: They're so positive on social media. All of those comments on those YouTube videos, all those views you're getting every week on your YouTube channel. This isn't, by no means, a small thing. You're getting 50,000 - 100,000 plus views on these weekend videos. You've got a real following

TOYAH: It's fabulous. But in hindsight, I never saw myself as a very small woman that is slightly muscular, slightly bulky and has short legs and a lisp. I never saw myself that way. I went into an industry that wants their women to be of a certain height, a certain weight with great legs. "Oh, if they can sing, if they can write -  well, that's a novelty. It's even better. "

I never saw myself as that because punk rock didn't lump me with that. But within the industry that I love, which is the music and film industry, it has been slightly problematic and I'm now shrinking inches per year (Holly laughs) I think how am I going to walk on that stage and have physical confidence? You've just got to face it  

HOLLY: The final thing to say to wrap everything up is the energy - where you get your energy from when you're on stage? Every time I talk to people and I say "I'm interviewing Toyah" the first thing they say is "I want to be Toyah's best friend". And the second thing they always say is "where on earth does she get this energy from? Because she is just a real firecracker when she's on the stage"

TOYAH: There's something so magical about what I call "the church of being on stage". When you've got a group of people together that are focused on the same thing they create a very unique and special energy. You see it in arenas. That energy, I really feel it. It feeds me. I can't go on stage and not have that energy. It's there

Also, I have a very wonderful secret that almost got me arrested the first time I played the Isle of Wight Festival in 2022. I said to someone "I've just got to have my green tea. It's like speed." They literally thought I was taking speed. I had this slight reaction to green tea that for two hours I could run a marathon. I remember the police followed us from the Isle of Wight Festival to the ferry and they're going to pull us over. They think I'm carrying some drugs and they waited for us to get on the ferry and left. This is green tea. It's tea leaves!

HOLLY: It's just green tea. That's the answer. Oh, Toyah, this has been an absolute delight. Thank you so so much for coming on the show

TOYAH: Well, thank you, Holly. It's been really great to touch base with you

MICHELLE: Let's turn our attention now to our guest for today. There are very, very few people who can claim to be a singer, an actor, a TV host, an author, a multiple Brit Award nominee and a film star to boot. My next guest has worn more hats than possibly any other and she's back on tour mixing her incredible music with tales from her life so far. This woman's stories are unbelievable   What a night this is going to be if you're going to see her on tour. I'm of course talking about the fabulous Toyah Willcox and I had the pleasure of chatting to her earlier. Toyah, it is such a joy to have you back on "Afternoons". You know what huge fans we are when you are on this show. Can I just start by saying you look out of this world. You look phenomenal, as you always do

TOYAH: (On a video call) Well, thank you very much. That's very kind of you. I have to announce when I get to Scotland I will have had a birthday by then and I'll be 68 years old

MICHELLE: Stop it!

TOYAH: So I'm now calling myself the punk pensioner

MICHELLE: (laughs) The double p! But you must get told all the time how phenomenal you look. I think that's not just even about your outward appearance. I think it's where you are in your career, right? Just this place you're in and the control that you have and that you get to do the things that you want to do. That's very empowering

TOYAH: It is empowering. I enjoy being older, funnily enough, because I feel well. I have had incidents in the past where I've had to work through illnesses. I think that's inevitable. But here I am in my late 60's and I feel really great. I'm loving what I'm doing. I can't wait to do this tour and to be with these wonderful audiences who want to enjoy the stories I have to tell

We're going to have a lot of laughter on the evenings I spend in Scotland. A lot of music and I'm going to be encouraging the audiences to join in with the music as well. It's a really good place to be. I would like to say to everyone out there who is approaching 60 or their late 60's that life can get better and it certainly has for me

MICHELLE: This is so exciting for the fans because this is the content that people want. You don't need me to give you the stats, but I'm going to do them for the sake of it. You've had eight Top 40 singles, released more than 20 albums, written three books, appeared in more than 40 stage plays, 10 feature films The list goes on. It is such a hugely impressive career. For you to be doing this tour "Songs And Stories" and allowing the audience in ━  because of course we get to see all of that glitz and glamor, but it's almost like pulling back the curtain, right?

TOYAH: Oh, yeah!

MICHELLE: We are not short of dates in Scotland. You're going to be in Aberdeen on the 10th of June, Greenock on the 11th of June, Edinburgh on the 12th of June. Airdrie on June the 13th and then beautiful Perth on the 14th. You enjoy coming to Scotland, because sometimes when people come, they'll do Glasgow and they'll leave. Or Edinburgh and they'll leave, but you've really got (gigs)across the country here

TOYAH: I feel really honored that I get to spend almost a whole week in Scotland. I'm used to going into Scotland to do a show, just for an afternoon and then having to leave again. That's just scheduling. The problem of scheduling it's not by choice. So here I am. I'm going to actually be in Scotland

My husband is going to be with me. I'm going to be with the wonderful audiences.  My experiences of playing Scotland, especially Glasgow and Edinburgh, are pretty amazing. You don't forget those performances. So I'm very, very excited MICHELLE: With this show how have you been able to distill all of these things I've just mentioned and you've achieved so much more - how do you narrow all of that down? What is the process of deciding what makes it onto the show?

TOYAH: It's a very visual show. We have a screen. We'll be showing videos. I will be showing behind the scenes and telling stories about one of the most amazing things about being in show business (and that is

They didn't want to go, so they stayed with me. They stayed and watched the show. They sat on stage because they wanted to see what punk rockers did, and they wanted to see them spitting at each other. Then they came to the dressing room and they didn't leave. We did not leave that dressing room until nine the following morning. It's these really peculiar situations you find yourself in that I'm going to be talking about, because they are hysterical and unbelievable

Like being flown into the middle of a rainforest in Belize to meet Martin Scorsese, go to his ranch there and have lunch and then leave again. Things you never expected to happen. I think this is what I find interesting about my work. Being a creative person opens so many doors, but I want my audience to come and be inspired. I want my audience to leave the show feeling “oh, I've had this idea. I think I could make that work in a business sense”. What's so exceptional about every single one of us is we have ideas. I have to wake up every day and create a new idea so that I can go out on tour. I'll be talking about all of this stuff. It'll be very funny, because everything in my life tends to be funny

MICHELLE: But here's the thing, even those little things that you've just dropped in our laps there, my jaw is kind of on the ground. The audience must be hanging on your every word because I know what you're saying  ━ that we can all do this, but we actually can, right? You have done it and I think you've had such a strong identity. No one says your name and no one doesn't know who we're talking about, right? The image pops up in the head, we know exactly who you are You've always been your true authentic self or certainly that's what it seems like to those of us that have followed you  ━ which was hard, by the way, in some of the decades that we're talking about. To be that person, be female and be in the music industry, in the film industry and all that kind of stuff But the audience must be hanging on every word because we haven't lived that life. You're so lovely and humble the way you're just dropping it in there. But for an audience what an exhilarating evening to be there and also to feel that you're part of that interaction, because you are sitting and you're talking to the audience. It's spoken words

TOYAH: It's spoken word. We are doing all the hits and we're going to do the music that inspired me. So there will be Black Sabbath “Paranoid” and Alice Cooper “Schools Out” (Michelle laughs) but there will be all the Toyah hits as well. But also, I wanted to say that I became a hair model very, very young in Birmingham. I was 16 when I started to travel around the UK doing shows

To have brightly colored hair back then could be dangerous. Taxi drivers wouldn't pick me up. Some busses wouldn't allow me on the bus. People were threatened by it. This was pre━punk. Now I think women have the freedom to be who and what they feel they are and what they want to be. If that includes hair color they can do it safely. It's their choice. But back then you couldn't

MICHELLE: But do you not think some of that's got to do with you and women like you and the people who kind of walked that walk for us? I know you know this anyway, you'll have had these discussions before, but if those kind of pioneers don't come forward, like yourself at 16, who just goes “this is what's happening. I'm doing this because creatively, this is where I'm as a person.” If you don't do that, the rest of us don't get to do it now and we don't get to be in this place

TOYAH: I totally agree that every new idea needs a pioneer. We're very good at recognising them these days but back then when women kind of stepped out of the "sugar and spice and all things nice" it was very challenging

The beginning of my creative life was when I started as a professional at the age of 18, working at the BBC. I did a drama there and then moved to the National Theater when I was still 18. It was a fabulous revolution for women. We're still working on it, but it was the start of the wave and it was a fantastic time to be working

MICHELLE: This is why we need the show, because it's the insight, it's the content. It's what the fans want, because we know the success and we know the story and what's being presented to us. But I also think it's so brave as well to be a little bit vulnerable on stage and talk about these things. I know there's a lot of laughter and you need laughter. Even in the darkest times we need light Laughter and comedy is a great way to do that, but to entwine that all with the music, it just sounds like such an incredible evening for the fans that are going to come along. Is this where you're most comfortable because you have done everything. We just had the third book ("Meteorite") comingout. You have starred in movies, you have been on TV and performing and now we have this. Being in front of a live audience, essentially, is that where you feel you're most comfortable?

TOYAH: Well, not only am I in front of a live audience ━ I'm in front of an audience that wants to see me

MICHELLE: A safe space TOYAH: It's incredible. It's a safe space and I do love it. We're going to do a Q and A in act two which I'm just going to have so much fun with. I've seen a few other artists do this particular style of show and the questions are outrageous. I just can't wait

MICHELLE: (laughs) Especially up in Scotland. But also I think it's a great vehicle for new fans to come and see you. You'll have the fans that have been with you the whole way through it and that's a great side of streaming. I know there's a different debate with music online and stuff, but for the the new generation of fans that are coming through this will be maybe the first time they get to see you in person

TOYAH: Well, yeah and our social media has just been ridiculous since lockdown. I'm very grateful for it. I think we've had 150 million people come to our sites and in the last three months 17 million people have viewed the content that I've made

MICHELLE: You're an influencer. We'll add that to the list of things that you are. You're now an influencer!

TOYAH: If you told me this 50 years ago  ━  that we'd be able to do this, the power of being able to do it and the independence of being able to do it is fabulous   

MICHELLE: It is fabulous, Toyah. That's why we adore you. We're such huge fans and I want to thank you for taking the time to speak to us again. We love having you on "Afternoons" here on BBC Radio Scotland Let me just remind our listeners, because they're going to have to be really quick if they want to get tickets. And then the next time we'll see you at "Rewind" on the 23rd of August in Henley. Thank you for taking the time to come on. Have the best week when you're here in Scotland. Fingers crossed you get some sunshine when you're up here

TOYAH: Yes!

MICHELLE: It's been a joy to speak to you again

TOYAH: Very good to see you, Michelle. Thank you so much and lots of love

KAYE: Hello and welcome to “It's Your Funeral” where we ask celebrity guests what they want their final send-off to be like. This week I'm talking to a woman who first found fame in the 80's as a Britpop punk goddess As an actress she made a mark in such films as “Quadrophenia”, and more recently she has mellowed, we hope, into a popular television presenter and alternative health enthusiast. Toyah Willcox - I have to say it's your funeral

TOYAH: Ahh (laughs) It's not something I want to think about too much

KAYE: Is it not?

TOYAH: Well, I think you do think about it but you don't dwell on it, do you?

KAYE: No

TOYAH: I think some people don't think about death at all, and I think that's a huge mistake. It's interesting to kind of confront what a funeral is KAYE: So would you think about death before you would actually think of the funeral?

TOYAH: Oh, totally, yes. Because death is going to last longer than the funeral. And also I always believe that life is attaining to whatever happens that moment after death. Life is a journey to that moment. So I've never thought hey, wow, this is it - 80 years of fun. I've always had that kind of Eastern philosophy that the whole of your lifespan is a growing curve

KAYE: And are you as excited about what comes after as you are in the moment?

TOYAH: As it grows closer, no (laughs) I always said in my 20's I can't wait to die, (it's the) the biggest adventure of all. Now, as it does grow closer, I'm completely frustrated by the lack of time because as you grow older, you're more ready to live

I'm finding that with age comes a wisdom, therefore comes the ability to confront and face the world in a way that you couldn't when you were 20. So that's really frustrating

KAYE: So it's getting better for you, is it?

TOYAH: Oh, yeah. Definitely

KAYE: As regard to your funeral I have to say, with the possible exception of one other guest on the series - your plan is the most mind-blowingly imaginable. It really is. So I'm going to leave it to you to give it a name, and tell us what it entails

TOYAH: I would love a sky burial. A sky burial is a Tibetan tradition of how you dispose of a holy man's body. It's carried out in secret. Society, women, communities are not allowed to see sky burials. The body is taken up by the elders onto a mountain somewhere in Tibet. It's a Buddhist practice. Then the elders, the males of the village, dismember the body and it's quite gruesome

They hack it apart and then they pommel bits of the body with a brick. Well, not a brick, but a boulder or stone. (They) mix it with flour and then they feed it to the vultures. It's the highest, most sacred burial you can have in the Tibetan culture

The idea is that you're returning the body, the flesh, back into the cycle of life on Earth and you're placing the soul up into a higher sphere. I love the idea of, say, my father and my husband - and I would like to go before they do, because they're so precious to me -

KAYE: Both of them? Your father too?

TOYAH: Oh god, yeah

KAYE: Because that's against the natural cycle. If we're talking about natural - you know, returning to the earth

TOYAH: (Chuckles) Well, you know, things can happen. I not a safe driver (they both laugh) I love the idea of, say, the Malvern Hills. As a child, I grew up in with the Malvern Hills as this beautiful view. I read “Lord Of The Rings” and always thought it was about the Malvern Hills. I studied Elgar for my music O-level and Elgar wrote “The Variations” within the view of the Malvern Hills

So, say, there's a sacred quiet spot on Malvern Hills. My father and my husband could have my body delivered there and they could, if they could stomach it, take the body apart, pummel it, feed it to the pigeons (they both laugh) or some kind of imported vultures and then below there's this kind of wonderful wake going on KAYE: We'll talk about the wake in a minute. But I mean, you use the phrase “if they could stomach it”. Have you discussed this with your father and your husband (Robert Fripp, below with Toyah)?

TOYAH: Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism I've discussed with my father all my life. My father explored Hinduism and Buddhism when he was a sailor in the war and he was in the Middle East. So those ideas would not be at all gruesome to him. I think it would be more upsetting that his daughter has asked him to do that. My father had extraordinary experiences in the war, so I think he could face it

As for my husband I think he'd do anything I'd ask, to be honest. So it's a selfish thing to ask, but I think it's also a very privileged thing to ask. And it's this thing about the flesh. I was brought up to be afraid of cultures that ate flesh or practice cannibalism. Yet when you examine cannibalism it's about consuming the spirit. It's the continuation of the spirit

It's the greatest mark of respect to eat someone's flesh in those cultures. With the Tibetan culture, to actually take the flesh away, to destroy the person, to destroy the anchor that holds the spirit in the physical world is the greatest act of love that you could perform

KAYE: You're obviously educated about these cultures. Do you have a fascination with this?

TOYAH: Oh, yeah, totally

KAYE: Where does that come from?

TOYAH: Because I'm so frustrated by Western cultures. I was brought up a Christian. I think the basic message of Christianity is absolutely fine, but the taboos with death just drive me mad with frustration. We are saying on one hand we're Christians. We believe in life after death and on the other, we're saying oh no, don't destroy our memory. Don't destroy our physical body. We live in fear of dying and I just find that polarization completely maddening KAYE: But death is scary TOYAH: Of course it is. It's the biggest adventure we'll ever have and it's the biggest act of trust we ever have to consciously travel through

KAYE: Are you scared of it?

TOYAH: I'm scared of the process, because even in Tibetan culture, where wise men have died and believe they've died many times - death is not easy. They say within the culture that when you die you relive your life and then after a period of days you really live your death and that's very painful

Then after something like 49 days you start to relive your death tenfold so the pain and emotional content of your life concentrates and by that you find the essence of what your soul is. So death is, in a way, probably the most testing awful thing and yet the most liberating thing we can go through and the reason we go through it is it prepares the soul for the next life

KAYE: Do you believe that will happen to you?

TOYAH: I never believed in reincarnation. Purely because I can't bear the thought of coming back here. If someone says, "OK, you've got a choice: have nothing or come back here and go through that education system again" I think I'd go for nothing. I loathe the structure of the society I've been brought up in. I loathe it with a vengeance

KAYE: How do you find happiness then? Or don't you?

TOYAH: (Chuckles) Happiness for me is in being creative. It's in writing or having creative thought or even something as small as breaking an old habit

KAYE: Let's go back to your funeral. We've got the process of you being chopped up and fed back to the earth, hopefully, by your father and your husband. This is in the Malvern Hills. Is there going to be some kind of ceremony to accompany this?

TOYAH: Yes. I'd like the cutting up and disposing of the body to be away from view, away from eyes, because I don't want pity and I don't want horror and I just want it to be one with nature. But down the bottom of the hill there would be, say, some huge tents with a wonderful ceremony going on with all my heroes and heroines in the world attending

I've never met David Bowie, well, been in the room with him, and I'll never work with him, but I would like him to carry a flame and to carry that flame and light an eternal flame in memory of me

I would like an orchestra there, playing my favorite music. And all my heroes like Peter Gabriel, Billie Whitelaw, Dawn French - everyone who I've ever admired in my work (but) who I don't really know - I would just like them there. And there's an image that I'd like remembered of me more than anything

It was an image from a song I did called “Brave New World” where my face is painted in birds (below). Just like an enormous, dominating print of that, almost at the altar. Just so people can say goodbye. Very egotistical (laughs)

KAYE: So that stage in your life where you had these dramatic images, and in fact you said at the ceremony in the Malvern Hills you will have this massive visual image of yourself - sort of in the early 80's, yeah? TOYAH: Yes

KAYE: When you looked so dramatic. Was that a cathartic process for you? Did you manage to burst through something? TOYAH: Yes, all those images were based - we're talking about 20 years ago now - when you weren't allowed to look different. When punk evolved it was extraordinary time for women because suddenly you could wear anything and still be seen as an intelligent human being

The whole point of the face painting that I went through as a pop singer was to try and express how I was feeling internally and wear it externally, rather than try and hide it

Now, I was brought up middle class, and it's often been said and it's a bit of a cliche that the middle class are particularly good at hiding things. It's probably because I was brought up to hide everything I felt that I naturally was that I just had to kind of expel it all. Kind of wear my heart on my sleeve in some way

KAYE: The music. You mentioned Elgar - would his music feature?

TOYAH: Yes, he would. Elgar was madly in love with his wife and the majority of the music he wrote, usually, from what I believe by the history books, was in a state of tears over his wife. One piece was called “Nimrod” and he was so in love with her that all that emotion kind of transcribed into the music. I just think that would be very very fitting

KAYE: OK. Well, if you think it's fitting as you say - this is your fancy, this is your funeral so we have done this for you. We have got a rendition of Elgar's “Nimrod” by our own string quartet Sigma so let's listen to that now

The string quartet plays

KAYE: An incredible send-off it's certainly proving to be so far. We've had a Tibetan sky funeral, where your body is hacked up and fed to the birds and then this fantastic ceremony down below in the Malvern Hills, where all your heroes - David Bowie, Dawn French and everyone is there TOYAH: (laughs) Are made to suffer

KAYE: Now you yourself said that this is a funeral which is normally afforded to very holy people and you were loathed to sort of put yourself in that category, really, but it does seem a funeral of a special person. Do you regard yourself as a special person?

TOYAH: It's not that I regard myself a special person. I think funerals should be special. I think people don't spend enough time (on them) I think a funeral should be like a wedding. It should be joyous. It should be really brilliantly contemplated. It should be an expression of everyone's love and everyone's memory towards that person

I'd like a funeral where everyone who knows me is involved on a certain level rather than coming and seeing a priest or a vicar, who never knew me, kind of run through my CV and then say “right, stick her in the ground”. I just think a funeral should be very creative

KAYE: Is it for the person who's gone or is it for the person who left behind in your mind?

TOYAH: Well, the one I created today is definitely for me (laughs). In a way it's a form of closure. So it should be as much for everyone left behind. It should also be a bridge, because I do actually believe there is eternal existence. I don't believe a soul can ever die. Well, it can but you have to work really hard at it. And therefore, the funeral is the bridge between the living and the person who passed into the next realm. So it's for both KAYE: Right. Would there be any readings at the funeral? TOYAH: Yes, there's a poem that I read at my mother-in-law's funeral which was very hard to read. The vicar actually asked me to read it. It's called “I'm Not Gone” and it's by Miss DJ. And it's stunning. Only a woman could have written it. It's full of love and it evokes the feeling of eternal life without the pretentiousness and the elitism that religion can sometimes have

KAYE: Would you perhaps (gestures Toyah to quote the poem)

TOYAH: Do you want to hear a bit? “I am not gone. I am part of forever in every season. Every bird song, in flowers, clouds and each rainbow. I am part of them. They are part of me. Do not grieve, only remember”

KAYE: So where do you think you will go? You said the funeral is the transition between this life and some other dimensions. What is that? Can you describe that at all?

TOYAH: Well, what I believe at present - and my belief always shifts as I learn more, is that the really holy people don't have to come back. They can stay in a kind of state of nirvana. The reason we come back is we have something to address. We have something to learn

KAYE: Do you think you would want come back then, or have you -

TOYAH: I really don't want to come back at all (laughs). I can't even bear thinking about it.

KAYE: It's kind of sad to hear you say that

TOYAH: If I did come back I'd like to come back as a man. I'd like to sin forever. On one level I think being a woman has been great, but I'm fed up of the culture and men telling me that I'm second class 

KAYE: Do you feel oppressed by it?

TOYAH: I think if people reflect negativity on you enough you do feel oppressed by it, yeah

KAYE: So what have you felt?

TOYAH: I didn't like my growing up, my being a child, having femininity forced upon me. I would have rather been genderless. I didn't want it presumed that because I was a girl I'd like to wear dresses and have dolls. I loathe all that role playing

KAYE: So are there still things that you want to deal within yourself?

TOYAH: Oh yeah, all the time. Creative issues, really. I believe we're all born with incredible potential but none of us, or some of us don't have the drive throughout life to reach that potential because you actually have to remain almost in a state of pain, emotional pain, to reach those highest creative levels

I'm talking here about ambition and people that are insomniacs, because all they can think about is being creative and they suffer for that creativity. Part of me would love to still be a great singer, a great writer and a great actor but part of me resists facing the pain that you have to to achieve that

KAYE: What about on a personal level, or are the two indistinguishable for you?

TOYAH: For me they're indistinguishable KAYE: How important is it to you that you are remembered?

TOYAH: I think being remembered is incredibly important. Again it's a slightly ego thing. If you're not remembered then you haven't changed anything in your lifetime. Change can be very subtle, so I think it's very sad to be forgotten because no one saw what you gave to others or your presence kind of helped the ongoing growth of generations

KAYE: So how would you like to be remembered then?

TOYAH: Oh, I haven't got a clue at all

KAYE: But you think so much about everything you've got to know

TOYAH: (asks herself) What would I like to be remembered for? I'd like to write a book that makes people think. Now, most books make me think but there's a book that I'd like to write and have the technical ability to write that wakes the soul up, because sometimes theoretically souls don't like to be woken up. They're more comfortable sleeping

KAYE: It's such a massive ambition -

TOYAH: I'll never achieve it! (laughs)

KAYE: Hopefully you will do it because somebody has to. But I'm thinking more of - I'm going back to the service in the Malvern Hills and thinking of your husband - if he is there standing up, or your father. What would they say about Toyah?

TOYAH: My father will laugh his head off and think “thank god she's gone!”

KAYE: He won't!

TOYAH: What will my father say about me? He's always thought that I think too much and he's always been very upset that I'm obviously not happy being a woman. He feels some kind of responsibility towards that

So I think he'd be very happy for me that if I had a sky burial that I've at least had something I want (laughs) And as for Robert I don't know what he'd think, really. He'd probably think “Oh, at last. I can have some peace”

KAYE: You don't believe that (Toyah laughs) Do you?

TOYAH: I don't know. I can't answer for them

KAYE: You can't fill in the blank “Toyah was”?

TOYAH: “Toyah was”. The one thing I often think - and this is my favorite subject, that's why I know so much on it. Theoretically, when you pass over, you face god. You face your god. And the big question is “what have you contributed in my name?”

I've been thinking and contemplating on this one a lot lately. What have I contributed in God's name? Because everything I've done has been an act of the self. Kind of I want this, I want that. I want to do that. What have I done in god's name? I can't answer it. Can not answer it

KAYE: Well, hopefully you've got some time left

TOYAH:Hopefully, yeah!

KAYE: Is it something you would address?

TOYAH: I think about it, yeah. I think about it often. I think it's a very good question, because it's the most unselfish question that you can be asked KAYE: I haven't quite worked out yet, and I doubt very much whether I will work out whether you are happy in this life, but once you have gone to whatever is there anything you will miss about this life?

TOYAH: Performing. The only time I'm really happy is when I'm performing. The stage has been my church - whether it's acting, singing, presenting. There's a very unique focus about it. I've often felt when you're on stage acting in a play - if you've got it right here's a moment when the whole audience is one mind and you can feel it. Your skin starts tingling. Everything changes. And that's such an extraordinary feeling that nothing can replace it (below, Toyah on stage as "Trafford Tanzi" in 1983)

KAYE: Well, talking about wild things nobody was wilder in the 80's than our next guest – here she is: a warm welcome, please, to Toyah Willcox. Now, admit it, Toyah ... we were having a little chat there and she said “I don't have anything that I could repeat”

TOYAH: It's all totally X-certificate and not to do with me. It's to do with roadies

COLEEN: Oh, they're the worst

TOYAH: Roadies and their antics

KAYE: No, we're not going to go there

TOYAH: Don't go there KAYE: No. The 80's was kind of seen as a wild time, wasn't it? And I mean your career has spanned 20 odd years, but at that time - early 80's - you were big, big, big in the pop business. You were very, very noticeable with your dramatic hairstyles, etc. Were these your kind of golden years? Do you look back on that?

TOYAH: Nope

KAYE: No?

TOYAH: I mean it was great. It was everything I wanted. I don't know if it was the same for you, but the 80's was just blind ambition and the ambition kind of ruined everything. If you just kind of went with it and had a really good time - then it would have been (the) golden years  

But nothing was good enough - even getting to number four (in the charts). The next time you had to get to number one or then the album had to be better than the last album

COLEEN: And (it's) different today. When you did get to number four or number one, you stayed there for good amount of weeks

TOYAH: And you got there because you sold well over 200,000 units. Whereas today - well recently, only about four years ago, a very famous woman got to number one, midsummer, selling 2000 units. Now, my last number four was selling 75,000 units a day. So it's a very different world now, but it was fun. It was everything I wanted COLEEN: Was your image and all of that - was that what you wanted or did someone come along and say “look, this is the route you should go” TOYAH: No. The problem was I started my image when I was about 14. I was a hair model at a place called Rackhams (department store) in Birmingham and I used to have my hair dyed. I had to go home wearing the scarf and mum would pull the scarf off and go “ahhhh” because my hair would be bright blue or something

So I was cultivating the image from a really early age. I felt like I was a different person, therefore I should look different. Why try and act normal? But when I became really famous with the huge hair, the huge makeup and everything, (so) the image became more important than the music. I spent more time doing photo sessions than actually writing. I think that is just a strange irony about the business COLEEN: And you wrote all your own stuff?

TOYAH: I co-wrote. I co-wrote with my guitarist, Joel Bogen, and a keyboard player called Adrian Lee COLEEN: And was it always like an expression of what you were going through?

TOYAH: Oh, totally - and a responsibility

KAYE: Were you always comfortable being different? I mean you say “I was different”. What made you different? I know that you were born with difficulty -

TOYAH: I think being born with a physical disability that was very, very minor, but it meant I limped and it meant I didn't talk very well. I didn't talk properly as such, until I was about six or seven after I had intensive physiotherapy and speech lessons. I was born with twisted spine, one leg longer than the other, no pelvic joints

KAYE: (That) wasn't that minor!

TOYAH: Well, it is because you can't see it. (I had) an amazing speech impediment that meant that I sprayed everyone within 24 feet of me with saliva. Now that wasn't really a problem. I could lead a normal life, but kids at school are very aware of things like that - COLEEN: They're very cruel at school, aren't they?

TOYAH: As soon as I started in school it was like “oh, look at hopalong” (makes a mocking sound) They were cruel. That made me feel different. But the best thing about feeling different was the birth name my mother gave me, which is Toyah Pepita Budela

KAYE: (Intrigued) Where did she get than from?

TOYAH: She said she read it in a book. But I got a letter in 1981 from the Sheriff of Toyah in Arizona saying “do you know that Toyah is a Red Indian tribe and it's a lake meaning “giver of life” and it's overshadowed by Willcox mountain

KAYE: Oh, really?!

TOYAH: I said to my mum “did you look on the map?” and she said “no way”. But that name's been a real gift

KAYE: Why?

TOYAH: It's been like a talisman because no one's ever heard it before. I was obviously quirky physically, and certainly quirky in humor, and the name just seemed to join and complete the circles

COLEEN: But how did you overcome all of that to become what you became? I mean, a lot of kids going through that would have been timid, and didn't want to stand out

TOYAH: I was like that. I was like that till I was about 14 and then I got fed up of being bullied. I walked into school one day, and there was a particularly bright girl who took the mickey morning to night out of me and I whacked her over the head with a chair -

COLEEN: Oh, good for you! (they all laugh, the audience laughs) KAYE: That's Coleen's kind of thing! She loves that!

TOYAH: But then it went from bad to worse, because then I became the bully -

COLEEN: Alright TOYAH: I was perceived as the bully therefore I actually got off on being perceived as the bully and I became the bully. And it was quite different. I ended school with people just begging me to leave. “Please don't stay on and do your A-levels. Just go!”

KAYE: Is all this in your autobiography “Living Out Loud” (above)(shows the book)?

TOYAH: I wrote that – firstly it's flattering to be asked but I didn't have any role models as kid because women didn't dare misbehave. I've written that as a passage through life for anyone who's told 1. You're not bright. 1. You're not beautiful. 1. You can't do what your dreams want you to do. You can. If there's a will and there's discipline and determination, you can do it. And that's what the book's about

KAYE: Is it therapeutic? Writing an autobiography?

TOYAH: (It's) Cathartic

COLEEN: I don't know what that means (Toyah laughs) KAYE: You get it all out, love. You get it all out

COLEEN: Thanks for that!

TOYAH: The timing of it is perfect because it's now firmly in the past in the old millennium. I like that timing. And if you ask me if 1981 were the golden years - no.Now are because I've never been happier and more kind of self-confident. I can really take life on and the odd wrinkle isn't going to stop me either

KAYE: So what's next? Because one thing, and we're not going to have time to talk about it unfortunately ... you have constantly reinvented yourself, which fascinates me. You've never been kind of stuck, or (thought) "this was my golden time, and I'm gonna hang on until death". You've always changed. What's coming up?

TOYAH: Well, I'm fairly lucky because I've got back into acting. So I've got a minuscule role in a new film that opens next month called “The Most Fertile Man In Ireland”, which is just stunning. A great comedy. I'm shooting "Aunt Boomerang" (above). I don't know if your children are young enough to watch "Aunt Boomerang", which is on BBC One

COLEEN: Yes. Love seeing you in that TOYAH: So I do that and numerous other acting projects so I'm lucky

KAYE: Well, we look forward to hearing them. I hope you're going to stay for our phone call. But in the meantime, a warm round of applause for Toyah Willcox

CATHY: Now, sharing her spiritual life with us this morning is punk icon, writer and cult actress of both stage and screen, Toyah Willcox. Toyah first came to prominence in Derek Jarman's punk film "Jubilee", a role in the iconic Brit flick "Quadrophenia" followed alongside roles opposite such legends as Katharine Hepburn and Sir Laurence Olivier And it's no mystery why, over 40 years on, Toyah is still making music. 13 hit singles and 24 albums on the love of music, which began in church, no less, has never left her. We'll hear more about her new show, "Songs & Stories", which will be touring Scotland in June. But first, a very warm welcome to "Sunday Morning", Toyah. Hi!

TOYAH: Good morning to you. It's lovely to be with you today

CATHY: And it's a pleasure to have you join us. Faith has always played a part in your life, I believe, but it was through your school in Birmingham, as opposed to your family. What was it that appealed to young Toyah about religion?

TOYAH: I was very young. Obviously, I started school at the age of four and a half, and it was a Church of England School opposite a church. So going to church was a very regular part of my life. I loved the ornate grandeur of the church and the grandeur of the songs that we sang. They were very liberating as a child - to suddenly be in that environment where you focused on music and the voice and it meant a lot to me

I never queried or questioned it. I loved my religious education. We had scripture classes in my school, but we also were a very liberal school when it came to religion. Obviously, being in Birmingham, we had Hindu children - I don't remember Islamic children, but we always honored the families and the children and the religion that they were born into. I found it fascinating learning about Shintoism, learning about Buddhism, as well as Catholicism and Church of England

It just made so much sense to me. Not the literal meaning of it, but the wonder of it. I always found those lessons probably the most rewarding rather than being stuck in mass or stuck in history or stuck in geography. The ones I looked forward to were the ones that allowed my imagination to soar

CATHY: Well, it certainly wasn't a passing phase because when you were only 14 you decided to get baptised and confirmed. Was there anything specific that made you take that leap? And what meaning did it have for you?

TOYAH: I had a lot of meaning. I'm the youngest of three children and both my brother and sister were christened and I wasn't. My mother had a very tough life. She was very badly damaged as a child because her father murdered her mother. We didn't know this, but my mother was severely depressive and had no sense of joy. There was just nothing positive in what she had to say

She felt I wasn't her child. I was born at home. The midwife came to the house, helped my mother give birth to me and my mother said to the midwife, apparently, “this is not my child.” That summed up our relationship. So by the time I was 14 and very free willed. I mean, my goodness, nothing could stop me. I was determined to get to London to be an actress and be a singer

My mother felt that because I hadn't been christened, I was possessed. So I went into religious education in Birmingham every evening, just one on one with our vicar across the road from the school and I was christened. My history teacher, Mrs. Beard was my godmother because no one wanted anything to do with me at this point in time

My family are not believers at all. My parents were there. They were gobsmacked, and then I got confirmed and to be honest I was ridiculed for this decision. My family have no belief whatsoever but I was utterly determined not to be bullied into making a joke of religion. It was obviously so important to the world that we are here on this planet and we're capable of prayer and we're capable of belief. I was brought up, thankfully, by my school to respect all religions

CATHY: It's very interesting because we're going to be discussing in the second hour of the show that very subject - talking about bringing faith into the public arena, how comfortable people feel discussing their personal faith and how comfortable people feel listening to it - so that's very, very interesting For you, clearly, hugely important on your own but in many senses within the family. I know you've spoken about your difficult relationship with your mom. Knowing what you do know now and you know her own traumatic childhood - do you think you were trying to repair that relationship in terms of being baptized because she felt that perhaps that would have been . . . – no?

TOYAH: I mean, if I knew what I know now I would have fought all my life to get my mother help but you're talking about the early 1970's where you couldn't really talk about mental health. If my mother said something she was a superior therefore she was right. If I could go back to that 14 year old self and know what she'd been through I'd have fought tooth and nail to get her help so she could talk about what happened to her. She never even told my dad

So we all believed we were living with someone who was completely irrational, which was true, but we couldn't help her. So by the time I was 14 I was so rebellious. I was running away from home. I just did not want to be in the same building as my mother. As soon as I was 16 I started working and by the time I was 18 I left home

It was a very damaged relationship but all the time there was love there and this is my connection with my Christianity. For me love is the greatest power every living thing has, including animals. We are all emotional, deep thinking, deeply tuned creatures, and love is the compass that brings everything together and helps us find everything

Even though my mother could not emotionally support me in any way or say anything positive to me, there was love there and that's the bond that held us together. It's the bond that kept us together right through her life but it was a very fractured and an incredibly difficult relationship which just drove me away. But I never stopped loving her and I believe in her way she was trying to love me

CATHY: That's very insightful. I know that faith is a part of your life. These days you attend church, but you also enjoy religious buildings in the sense that you believe they maybe hold memories or energy, perhaps. Sacred spaces are important to you

TOYAH: I think prayer is incredibly important because I think we are very unique in our ability to pray. I think it's part of the human condition. You can call it meditation. You can call it deep meditation. You could call it prayer. But if we are able to communicate with this remarkable existence on this remarkable plane, we are able to bring the future to us

I've always loved churches. I used to live in Menton on the Italian border, right up until the Covid lockdown. There was the most remarkable church in Menton, which is in France. I would just go there every day, and it wasn't so much to hear the scriptures. It was to be in the building and to feel what humanity had done to that building

I think when you've got places of worship, and even going back through history before Christianity, places of worship are very, very powerful and very rewarding and I believe the power of prayer can change things for the better

CATHY: Life after death for you is also something you believe is intrinsically linked to a changing relationship with time. Can you tell us more about this?

TOYAH: Yeah, the only people I get angry with is atheists who try to drum it into me that our energy doesn't continue. I just think it's blindingly obvious that we are divine sparks in human form, and that spark never dissipates. So I believe we're here to experience time. In eternity you can't experience time, but you can revisit when you've been here. This is a plane that vibrates at a certain level. You've got the fourth dimension, which is about time

For me, eternity is where time just doesn't travel. So to come here allows us to develop and become stronger, for that spark to become stronger. I do not believe that Toyah Willcox is going to live forever and I find huge comfort in that because I've been Toyah Willcox for long enough. This whole thing about moving on and experiencing new things is about the whole experience and energy of this universe and greater kind of solar system. So I just cannot fathom when people can't experience that we are more than the flesh

I felt that for a long, long time - even as a child I actually used to freak my mother out that I had this deep, deep belief of otherness and connection to her past and to my father's past. It's an ongoing bond and the greatest thing we can honor it with is love

I listened to your last speaker who was absolutely fascinating - that algorithms within social media are driving us apart. We cannot allow this to happen to us because the greatest thing we can give this world in our lives is love. And whatever you believe in, whatever you're born into, love is the greatest language we have

CATHY: Well, we're going to talk more to Toyah Willcox but we're going to pause for some music. You've chosen David Bowie's “Life On Mars” and you can tell me about why or why it's significant after we've heard it

The song plays

CATHY: Remembering David Bowie who died 10 years ago yesterday. Great track. Why is that particularly specific to you?

TOYAH: I think it means a lot to my generation. It's an astounding piece of music. I mean, musically it's just absolutely perfect, but the sentiment of it is dystopian and it's very, very broken. I remember hearing it and falling in love with the romanticism of it. Certainly fell madly in love with David Bowie and the fact that he was otherworldly and that you look up to the stars and wonder what experiences they are having, i.e is there life on Mars?

But for me that brokenness of seeing that everything around you is not working in your favor and giving you the strength to just walk away from it. That was very powerful to me. The song became a lucky charm as well. I sang it at my very first audition for a BBC Two drama called “Glitter” when I was 17. I got the part and I ended up at the National Theatre

Then I ended up working with (Derek) Jarman and Katharine Hepburn and I put it all down to the luck of that song. So it's very deeply embedded in me as a masterful, brilliant song but also something that has opened doors for me

CATHY: Marking a milestones in your life, because as you said you couldn't wait to leave home. You left Birmingham, you went to London and that would have been during very exciting years, because I think we're similar ages, to be honest You were a teen hair model. You became a drama graduate and then of course all of this excitement with the National Theatre started. Tell me a little about your Mayhem warehouse years in the early 80's, as it was at the centre of the punk art scene, wasn't it? That must have been exciting!

TOYAH: I moved into this warehouse. It was actually about 1976 - it could have been '77. It's a long time ago! It was just an empty warehouse and it had really thick, almost two inch thick glass panes everywhere because it was used to make acid. So we used those panes as flooring. But very quickly this became the hottest place in London

We had people like Iggy Pop rehearse there, John Cale of the Velvet Underground, Hazel O'Connor formulated the music for the movie “Breaking Glass” there. It was the hot spot. I remember we used to rent it out to Steve Strange every weekend or every other weekend and he'd have four day parties from Friday to Monday. They were 24 hour parties. Every cycle of the day he'd be in there making music. I can remember seeing Boy George in the audience, (and) Leigh Bowery

It was in intensely crazy. I cannot tell you. We would have up to 450 people in this very small area. Spandau Ballet gave their first ever live performance there. It was a really uncomfortable place to be. It had one toilet, no door on the bathroom (Cathy laughs) Yet people loved being there

They found it inspiring and it attracted a community that went on to create the new wave movement, the New Romantic movement and the kind of real glamorous rock and roll that started to develop in the early 80's. It all kind of happened in this building which had no heating and one tap

CATHY: Yeah, but art will find art. It must have been exciting. The names you've just listed off there are so well known and but at the time, clearly, very young and waiting for their break. You met your husband, a musician and founder member of King Crimson, Robert Fripp when you were both stars, but your love story is quite an unusual one, isn't it?

TOYAH: It's very unusual. I don't think it could ever happen again. He had a premonition. My husband has dreams that become very real. He had a premonition that his diary wasn't filling for this three week period. It was about 1984 or '85. He was living in New York and he thought “there's a reason for this. I'm going to go back to England”

He spent time with his mum. He felt that he was going to meet his wife so he came back to England. We were both sharing a taxi - this is pure coincidence - with our management going to a Nordoff Robbins music event. It's a music charity in London. And he realised I was his wife (Cathy laughs) and he proposed. It was just like out of the blue. I said, “well, can I get to know you first?” And he said, “well, you can, but I know you're my wife.” So he proposed in the first week we met each other

CATHY: That's incredible. What did you say? I mean, obviously you said "yes" (laughs)

TOYAH: Well, it's a really complex thing, because we made an album together. We did a charity album ("The Lady Or The Tiger", 1986) together to raise money for a children's school in Washington DC. We did very quickly fall in love with each other and by the end of that album he said, “I absolutely know you're my wife. We're together for life. Will you marry me?” And I said, “well, I still would like to get to know you.” So within nine months we were married

CATHY: Oh, that's amazing. That's wonderful. And so hopeful for anyone listening out there - at the beginning of a new year you never know what's around the corner. We must talk about your your UK tour. 49 dates, "Stories & Songs". You're heading to Scotland in June. Tell me a little about it?

TOYAH: Well, I'm really looking forward to coming to Scotland with this because Scotland has always been incredibly good to me and I can't wait to be with these particular audiences. This is a show that has two acts. There's music, there's very much the hits. And I tell stories that I don't otherwise get the chance to tell. So I've written a book called “Meteorite”, which is a visual autobiography of my life going behind the scenes

So within the very intimate settings of these venues that I'm going to be doing in Scotland and and the rest of the UK I want to be able to tell you stories that have developed me as a person but I've never had the luxury of time to tell. Like working with David Bowie – David Bailey, the photographer. I will talk about experiences with David Bowie. They're very few, but very powerful

I just want to go right behind the scenes and be really insightful. I find that with my shows a lot of daughters bring their mothers or vice versa. It's one of these shows that is inspirational. I very rarely talk about this in the press but I'm a child of disability, which was very problematic for my mother, who was a very beautiful dancer when she was young

So the fact that I was so rebellious was because I was not going to be pigeonholed into someone that could not move forward through life because I was physically disabled. So it's very inspirational, very open, very truthful. And also very funny, because there's stories like when I was 18 I got arrested in Trafalgar Square for busking on Christmas Day

I'm telling these stories about always being in trouble and always being in the wrong yet being in the right place at the right time. So that's what it's going to be about. Lots and lots of laughter, lots of insightful stories and brilliant music  

CATHY: Absolutely and people are looking forward to it. I know I am, certainly after hearing this. Toyah, it's been a joy talking to you this morning. Thank you for sharing your spiritual life with us

TOYAH: Thank you, Cathy

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