#toyah interview

Recorded at the Ravenshead Village Hall, Ravenshead, Nottingham ALEX BELFIELD: Toyah Willcox, how are you? TOYAH: I'm really good, thank you ALEX: You look amazing and you sound better than ever. I just stood here for twenty minutes watching you soundcheck for a gig tonight and my God! What a voice! I mean it's operatic, isn't it? TOYAH: Well, I trained in German opera from about the age of 14 right through to 18. I keep catching myself talking German although my German isn't great. But that really helped me. If anything it's hard to get it out of the voice because when I have to do the big notes at the end of songs that's when I kick the opera in I have a real ambition to be in an opera one day and I never say never and I don't think doors close. I think one day it might happen. But if I did go into an opera it would have to be really modern and really extreme. Because I am a rock singer ALEX: You're a singer, you're an actress, you're a personality, you're a star at heart. What do you want to be? TOYAH: It's a really good question because psychologically I have to work. If the phone isn't ringing or I'm not creating something I don't really exist. I just sit there … blank. So I always create projects and by creating projects other things come in. Last year I was playing Queen Elizabeth I in the stage version of “Jubilee”, which was a complete surprise. But also it featured my music This year we've got “In The Court Of The Crimson Queen” coming out. It's gone beyond on what we thought would happen. In the pre-order chart it went number one across the board. It's out on April the 12th and fingers crossed we'll get a chart position with that. But it's just been great. In the last two days I've done 50 radio interviews and people are loving the music So you ask what I am? This year I'm dominantly a singer but I'm also doing a movie. I've got a great movie coming up in June. So I just keep on filling that diary and see what happens! (Alex laughs) Tonight we're doing an acoustic show. I like to think that the acoustic is helping me to become a better musician and a singer because when you only have two guitars and three voices you've really got to be spot on It's taught me so much doing this show. We've done it now for five years. We go into lovely little places. This is a village hall near Nottingham, completely sold out. We could've done a week here but it will be magical. We know that because it's up close and it's very personal   

ALEX: It seems like you were born to be on stage. When we look back to your childhood, because you were so shy and so bullied and to stand up on stage today must be a huge strain still, or is it a second home? TOYAH: The acoustic show I love and I know it's going to be good. It's just a magical show. We even had a stage invasion in Otley last week (Alex laughs) There's just something about this show. I think people are so close they go a bit bonkers We do the festivals so we do experience the large audiences, between 30 and 60 000. I'm more frightened for those than I will be tonight. Part of it is that it's so special. You feel the energy. There is a definite change in atmosphere when you've got that amount people in front of you. I find it overwhelming I did a guest appearance in Glastonbury three years ago and I felt as if my feet needed to be nailed to the ground. I just felt as if though I was levitating off the ground. There was quarter of a million people on site and it's just radically different to anything I've ever experienced. So I'm a little bit sensitive to the audience. I'd say I'm more scared in the arenas than I am at the acoustic ALEX: You've got that great thing like Cliff, Cilla and all these people - that you have a legendary status - TOYAH: You think? ALEX: That we only need your first name - TOYAH: (laughs) I'm Toyah – yeah. I think it's very nice that people are saying that I have legendary status. I think it's because of my age (laughs) ALEX: You've nothing to prove, you're working harder than you've ever worked. It must be thrilling and liberating in a way to know that we know what we're going to get. It's a guaranteed cheque when we come and see you, that you're going to deliver? TOYAH: I do deliver because the audience comes first. I don't think I've gone beyond that point where I have nothing to prove. As an actress I've got everything to prove and I'm still learning. The new album is a beautiful album and it's so exclusively me that I want people to hear it and go “yes, Toyah's being Toyah” and that suits me down to the ground But there's always something to prove. Time moves on. Nothing is fixed. I think only your Hendrix and your Bowie and your John Lennons have that "nothing to prove" music that is their legacy. I'm not quite there yet. I'm trying my damnedest but I'm not quite there yet ALEX: I listened to this entire CD all the way through and there were two songs that stood out. It's so eclectic. One minute we've got these beautiful ballads and the next minute we've got you at your height where you're doing outrageous songs and playing the big ballad and the rock stuff “Heal Ourselves” and also “Sensational” - which is literally sensational. I don't think you've ever sounded better! Congratulations on this. It's so beautifully produced TOYAH: Thank you. I write with my co-partner Simon Darlow. I've been writing with him since I was 18 and he was 17. He's worked on many of my big albums as well. We have a very psychic relationship. Put us in a room and things just happen. He picks up a guitar, he hits the piano and we come up with something like “Sensational” in two minutes “Heal Ourselves” came about because at the time it was written we were really conscious about artist's responsibility towards being positive when the world is completely bloody crazy. We wanted to write something that really completely connected the artist to the audience so that became “Heal Ourselves"  

ALEX: You were ahead of your time, weren't you? You walked through the streets of Birmingham, people had never seen anything like it. Was that a divine intervention or was it you being you or was it influence? It's very easy to fit in the crowd but it's very difficult to deliberately stand out? TOYAH: At that time there was no social media, there were no mobile phones, no one could take pictures of me on the street so in a way that made it very easy to be a strange fish in a large pool. I was a hair model for a very big department store from the age of 14 because I had remarkable hair. Very quickly I started to dye my hair all colours under the rainbow and that gave me a very unique identity at the time I didn't know about punk rock in 1974/5. Then a friend said to me “you should really go and see the Sex Pistols” at Bogarts in Birmingham. I really thought up until that point I was the only punk in the village. I was in a room with 350 kids who were all dying their hair, all making their own clothes. I thought “where were you?! I'm been so lonely so many years! And here we all are – the tribe" It was a very lucky time for me. From about '75 into '76 right through to about '85 everything fell in my lap. It was to do with this being unique and being quite strange and not fitting in to the mould. I ended up working with Laurence Olivier, Katharine Hepburn, John Mills, Diana Dors. I had three platinum albums. It was just utterly remarkable ALEX: And what a great time to be alive and working. I don't know if we started today we would have the same stories. There are those type of legends around you can speak of and people take in a breath TOYAH: I think I would've found a way. If I was in the world today as a teenager I would've been on social media, I would've been on Youtube. I would've found a way. I was a pretty outrageous kid and I've always liked challenging taboos and there's still plenty of taboos to challenge. That's the biggest advice I give to anyone on Youtube. Look at the taboos and break them ALEX: What is it like being a woman in 2019? Where are we at now? It must be very difficult because we've got #MeToo and all of that. What would you have thought of that if that was around in the 60s? Does it help or not help? TOYAH: Oh! If we had #MeToo in the late 70s, which is when I kicked in ... oh boy! It was unbelievable being a woman in very much a man's world. Especially doing northern Working Men's Clubs, especially going even north of the border. I don't want to put these places down because they were great to play and the audiences were fantastic … but you were just groped. The whole time – left, right and centre. Just groped. I think there's even photographs out there where I'm being groped At the time there was no #MeToo, there was no voice for how you felt. What #MeToo has done is given vulnerable women a voice and to point out when these situations have happened. I have felt no need to take part in #MeToo because to be quite honest I just used my fists. There's a few men out there who would happily use #MeToo on me (Alex laughs) I just smashed them in the face I had no qualms about that at all. There are other singers who are renown for doing that too. Today I think it's rather a fantastic time for women because I think women can be sexually very open. They can have multiple partners if they want multiple partners. It was quite hard to do that 30-40 years ago They can be gay, they can be straight, they can choose their gender. I think that is all really healthy. What I would like to see is that that can happen without anyone batting an eyelid. Because really I think it's nobody's business what your sexuality is and what your gender is. I've always fought being seen as a person. I think that is on its way and that's a good thing    

ALEX: It is depressing in 2019 as I sit here shocked that men would just come and grope you. It's incredible to me as a 39 year old man. I can't imagine a world where that existed but that was the case Was that ever the case with the management, the record companies and the producers around you? Because even when you'd left the club you'd still have to face it? TOYAH: There's some extreme, very one off, on their own things that happened … My band really looked after me. I remember getting to Leeds, sometime in 1979, to a club and it was height of the fear of the Yorkshire Ripper. Firstly I arrived at this club and my wonderful lighting man said to me “do not stay here alone. The club owner thinks he has a right to sleep with you. Do not go anywhere – not even the ladies (room) - without one of us escorting you" So that was cool. This is what my band did – they looked after me. Then I tried to walk to the B&B and a police car picked me up and they said “you can't be alone” - because of the Yorkshire Ripper. My generation lived through that because no one knew who and what and where the next strike was going to happen As for the casting couch – one very remarkable one was - actually, I feel quite proud of - because this director was the legendary Russ Meyer of "Valley Of The Vixens".  I was actually sent to an audition for one of his films in the late '70s No idea what I was in for! I arrived at the audition and I was asked to take my top off. I just put two and two together and I said “this ain't for me” and I walked. But that happened in those days! It did happen. In a way I'm really glad I met Russ Meyer because that kind of “Boogie Nights” age of movie making is no more. And I was almost a part of it ALEX: How incredible. I wonder where you got that tenacity and confidence from? Was it your parents, was it your family? Where did you find that from within you? To stand up and walk out. Most people wouldn't be that brave … TOYAH: No, it was just no problem walking out on that one! ALEX: That's extraordinary. Some women may not have made that choice, which they could've regretted forever. You had that within you. I wonder where that comes from? TOYAH: Well, some women would've wanted that job. I just didn't want that job. It wasn't hard to walk out on that one. For me knowing that I was not tall, not particularly feminine and that I had to just be individualistic. I knew that was how I was going to survive. Which made me very bombastic and full of bravado I just knew I haven't got the feminine card to play. If I could go back into the heavens when I was being conceived and I could choose the body – believe me I would've chosen a supermodel body because I think they have an easier life. I got this body and I just decided that I had to be very tomboyish – which I am – but I knew that was my way of surviving ALEX: I don't think you can see you as the rest of the world sees you. You are a sex symbol. My father for instance (Toyah cracks up laughing) thinks you're delicious I don't know why you constantly in interviews always say that you were fat and ugly and not pretty as a child. You know you are now, right? What have you got to prove today? TOYAH: Back then I was three stone heavier. Today there is nothing wrong with that. Back then in the movie industry and the music industry … as soon as I signed on a label I had to loose that weigh. I was complicit. It was absolutely fine, I didn't mind at all I lost it when filming “Quadrophenia” because we were on so many amphetamines to get through that film! (they both laugh) All of us were popping pills like … aarrghh! It was a fabulous experience! But back then it was expected of you. I had a dietician, he weighed me weekly. I was weighed before I did Top Of The Pops I was complicit, it was absolutely fine. It was the every day and what you've got to remember is I had songs to write, I had scripts to learn, I had venues to get to. We were permanently in front of the cameras. On one day I could do a photo session, five interviews and a two and half hour show. It was just full on. The creativity meant more to me back then and there was no sense back then of eating clean, eating healthy. You were going to live for ever Everyone felt they were going to live for ever. If you told someone that you needed to eat clean to have longevity you'd go “nah, that's just rubbish”. We were just eating whatever we could get our hands on and it wasn't much in those days. Vegetarianism was a hard thing to follow in those days. I can remember getting to Manchester on a Sunday and finding nowhere to eat. You could just about get a bag of chips and that was it So those kind of things back then you didn't consider. All you considered was the speed and the competitiveness of getting an album finished, getting the best tour on the road and then starting all over again    

ALEX: You've achieved so much in your career. 24 albums and 40 shows you've appeared in, over 30 films. It's a remarkable legacy you're leaving for the world to enjoy Has it been fun? You've had one of the most blessed careers. You've always been in work, you've always been relevant and it's always been good stuff. That's the trickiest thing, isn't it? We can all work but is it good stuff? TOYAH: It's the only life I know. I couldn't be any other way and I don't feel I've actually arrived yet. I can only put this in perspective and this is a direct quote from Lulu on Radio 2. Someone asked her a similar question and she said “I'm hoping to be discovered” and that's what it feels like! (Alex laughs) I totally agree! I don't feel I've arrived yet. I'm not known as a film star. I have lovely cameo roles in films and I work in films. I also help co-produce and finance for films, which I love. I'm very passionate about all of that Funnily enough everyone knows who I am and I'm legendary … I only feel now, and about to turn 61, that I'm arriving. I think that's thanks to my writing partnership with Simon Darlow, because if “In The Court Of The Crimson Queen” was my swan song I am very happy with it There's songs on there I'm just so proud of like “Dance In The Hurricane”, “Heal Ourselves”, “Legacy”, “21st Century Super Sister”. I am really proud of those songs so I think I'm only arriving now. It's good because I'm not sure how long I can keep doing it for! ALEX: Are we going to sit down in another ten years at 71 and you're going to say the same thing? At what point are you going to give yourself a break and look down on your CV? There's a lot going on there, you must be at least proud even if you don't think you've arrived? TOYAH: I'm very proud of surviving (Alex laughs) I am definitely a survivor and I've survived with very little support. I've done virtually all of this myself with my musicians. I manage myself because I can't find a manager, I cant find a PA. No one wants the lifestyle I have! Let me put this in perspective. I'm in the office from 8 in the morning until about 4 in the afternoon, drive to the venue, do a gig, drive home, back in the office until 4 in the morning. That's the schedule. No one wants to be a part of that. I have to find people with an equal amount of insomnia that I have. It's hard but it's wonderful ALEX: People forget that you have to run a business to make it a show. That's what you've done all of your career. You've had to be the person fighting forwards because if not you're quickly forgotten TOYAH: Yeah, I agree with everything you've just said. Also I think a lot of artists don't realise that if you're not on top of the business side that's when problems come in. It's as easy as that. You just have to keep an eye on everything. I do admit that most business people are slightly scared of me because I pick things up very quickly (Alex laughs) “Excuse me, what's that in the contract? Excuse me!” ALEX: Are you less feisty now than you were in 1975 for example? TOYAH: I'm more intelligent than I was in 1975 – ALEX: More diplomatic you mean? (laughs) TOYAH: I don't fly off the handle as quickly as I used to and I'm really good at negotiating. I even have other agents and other artists phone me up and say “could you negotiate this?” And I go “c'mon! Grow a pair!” (Alex laughs) ALEX: It is a tough world to survive. Turning 60 … what did that mean to you? Was it personally thrilling that you made it to sixty (Toyah laughs) and you look the way you do? Did it matter to you professionally? TOYAH: Yeah. I tell you the biggest surprise – and it's been twelve months of surprises – on my 60th birthday my audience downloaded me to number one in the charts and that's what's kicked off all of this That led to Demon Music signing us on a contract, which is the first time I've been signed to a label in about 40 years. Then it led to adding the five new songs on “In The Court Of The Crimson Queen” and it's going at the speed of light! Sixty so far – and I've only got one month left being sixty – has been one of the best years of my life    

The Mail On Sunday EVENT Magazine 6.8.2017

“Thunder In The Mountains” plays JACKIE: Welcome to the “Great Conversation” with Jackie Brambles. This is the home of great conversations with your favourite artists of the 70's, 80's and 90's. Tonight's special guest represents the very essence of what the 80's were about. Rebellious, visually striking with a point of view and plenty of opinions And of course surfing along on that early 80's post punk new wave sound, such as our opening track, “Thunder In The Mountains”, which got to number four in 1981 for our special guest, her third consecutive top 10 hit that year She started out as an actress, breaking through in movies like “Jubilee” and “Quadrophenia”, and she's never stopped creating. During lockdown, her and her iconic guitarist husband, Robert Fripp entertained a grateful nation with their YouTube “Sunday Lunch” performances in their kitchen, which continue to this day. What a joy to welcome back to the “Great Conversation” the one and only Toyah! TOYAH: Hi! How are you doing? JACKIE: I'm good. How are you, my lovely? TOYAH: Yeah, really good. I don't know about you, but life is crazy busy! JACKIE: I've just been reading up on what you're doing lately. Often special guests come on and they've got an album – or they've got a tour, and there's 10 dates, or 15, if it's a really big tour. You've got 49 dates coming up! TOYAH: I know. And I'm already promoting the same tour for next year. We haven't announced it yet, but I think I'm doing 53 of these next year JACKIE: That is good (but) bonkers. You've got so much energy!

TOYAH: It's being tested because I'm actually making a new album as well. I was up at three this morning doing vocals

JACKIE: Oh, my goodness! Is that because you're naturally a night owl? You're more productive at night? I know I am

TOYAH: I can't answer that. I never know when I'm going to be productive. It's so erratic. Being my age I just grab it when I can

JACKIE: Well, you're looking rather fabulous. Do you work hard at looking after yourself - because you look spectacular?

TOYAH: It's a very good question. I need more time to look after myself these days. I don't want to go on the jabs (fillers, botox etc) I'm 68 this year and my ass is getting huge (Jackie laughs) I really don't want to go on the jabs

JACKIE: Don't go on the jabs. You've got a beautiful, sculpted face as it is. You don't want that face that some people get

TOYAH: Oh my god, yeah!

JACKIE: You're going to be racing around a stage for 49 nights starting very soon. March the 22nd isn't it, the first date?

TOYAH: As soon as I start singing my body pulls into shape. It's like doing two hours of yoga every night JACKIE: How amazing. When you stand here where you are in your career right now, with all that you've learned, with all that you've done, with all the ups and downs - if we could put you in a time machine and magic you back to speak to the young Toyah, who was just about to break through, be on Top Of The Pops and it's all about to go bonkers … what words of wisdom would you whisper in her ear?

TOYAH: It's a very good question, because the world was such a different place back then. I would have said education, education, education. Practice, practice, practice. I never believed that technique was important. I came from the world of punk, where everything was spontaneous. But I do think that like a virtuoso piano player, a violin player, a cello player - practice and control conserves energy and uses the body like an instrument

So I was wasting a lot of time just kind of running marathons, when all I needed to do was hone what I had. In hindsight, I really think that education is the greatest gift in this life. Have good acting lessons, good technique lessons. I would have gone back and done that, because the instrument I was born with was very, very good, but my psychology was askew JACKIE: Isn't that the case for all of us? When we're youngsters we think we know better

TOYAH: We own the world when we're young

“I Want To Bee Free” plays JACKIE: “I Want To Be Free”. It got to number eight in 1981 for our special guest, Toyah. So let's go way back, if that's okay with you, to figure out the earliest influences over you as a person, as an artist. You've been quite open about your childhood over the years. (It was) not an easy one TOYAH: My childhood was complex because my mother was harbouring a secret she never told anyone. ancestry.com revealed this secret to me in 2021. My mother had already passed by then. She was illegitimate. Her father murdered her mother and from the age of about 16 to the age of 19, when she married my father, she had to have a 24 hour chaperone live with her in case her father came for her. We never knew this and it not only came as a shock from ancestry.com but it put all the pieces together My mother was the most negative human being I've ever known and the most broken human being I've ever known. You've got to add to that equation that there was maternal love there, there was protection there, but she was complex and I could never connect with her For the time she was in my life, from the day I was born until she died about 13 years ago, so I'd have been about 55 - she couldn't say one positive word to me. She never said “I love you”. When I told her I'd won the “Rock & Pop Awards" in 1981 her reaction is typical of what it was like being with her. “You will fall on this award and it will kill you” JACKIE: Oh, my god! How did you thrive beyond that? TOYAH: She made me feel mad every day and she made my father feel mad. My siblings loved her, but we just couldn't bear being with her. Every single day was destructive, but she had been through something appalling. So I do open my show with this story, because there was so much love there. But it kept turning. It kept showing the other face JACKIE: It's a very twisted and disturbing picture that you paint, Toyah. I wonder whether music became your safe place, your respite from the chaos going on at home. What songs remind you of that period of your life? TOYAH: The songs for me for the first 10 years of my life - I was born in 1958 - I thought the only band in the world was the Beatles. I was never aware there were any other bands. My song for me would be “She Loves You”, which I used to sing to the family and shake my head like Paul McCartney and just have them laugh hysterically at me The Beatles “She Loves You” plays JACKIE: The Beatles, “She Loves You” got to number one in 1963. (It was) an early influence in the life of our special guest who had that song imprinted on her when she was but a five year old. Her new book “Meteorite” is out now, and she kicks off her 49 date “Songs And Stories” tour of the UK this coming Sunday in Chelmsford So before the break, Toyah, you were sharing with us the pretty miserable existence that you endured as a kid growing up. As you got older did music become an escape for you?

TOYAH: It was definitely the driving force. The wake-up call for me was David Bowie, who so obviously was unconventional, and so obviously was not going to be told who he should be. In the face of his adversity - because he had a very sad young life with his brother's schizophrenia and his mother's schizophrenia - he gave my generation strength

When I first heard “Space Oddity” I loved it but when I heard “Starman” and I saw this human being that was not gender specific I realised … oh, this is who I am. This is what I need to be. Bowie helped me break away. I went to see him as “Ziggy Stardust” in Coventry about 1972. I saw him many times through my life and I value Bowie as someone that gave me my personal freedom JACKIE: How amazing then that you ended up marrying your husband, Robert Fripp, a master of the guitar and of course founder of the band King Crimson. Bowie specifically asked him to come and play on his records. Robert was on both “Heroes” and “Scary Monsters (and Super Creeps)” to name but two How have you coped with meeting him over the years when he was still with us? In that kind of almost social studio way where you're with your husband and this man, who meant so much to you during difficult periods of your life, is just chatting away?

TOYAH: One of the the most challenging things for me was to be in the presence of David Bowie. I never got over it because my husband worked with him, and Bowie was regularly in touch to ask Robert on projects. I would stand within 18 inches of Bowie thinking I'm going to pass out. I can't open my mouth, I can't breathe. Eventually Bowie realised it was a problem for me, so he never tried to talk

JACKIE: He just realised that you were so excruciatingly uncomfortable

TOYAH: I was just like … well, I can't swear, but I mean ... it was like bog off Bowie. It was like ... I'm not opening my mouth. I'm just gonna blow my cover

Davie Bowie “Starman” plays

JACKIE: “Starman” by David Bowie, a hit in 1972 when our special guest would have been a young teenager. So let's talk about as you got a little older and you decided you wanted to pursue a career in music. How did that all come about?

TOYAH: I was so lucky. As soon as I moved to London I was the youngest member of the National Theatre as an actress. But then a wonderful actor from “The Chariots Of Fire” called Ian Charleson introduced me to the film director Derek Jarman and I've never looked back. When I made the movie “Jubilee” I was acting opposite Jordan, who, at the time, managed Adam And The Ants and The Sex Pistols. Adam Ant was in the movie, and Adam and I wrote a song together called “Nine To Five”

I started to work with people in the room, such as The Stranglers. I did the Rainbow Theatre with The Stranglers when Hugh Cornwall was a guest of Her Majesty's prison (Jackie laughs). I just worked with these phenomenal people. Iggy Pop rehearsed his tour for the “The Passenger” in my home, the warehouse (“Mayhem" in Battersea, London, below) I was just mixing with fabulous, glorious people. I just got on with my life

JACKIE: How amazing. Not just that you got to mix with the sort of the peers of the time but it was at a time when music and technology was changing

TOYAH: It was so good! I would throw four day parties that Steve Strange was the host of and he would bring in 400 kids into this warehouse. Boy George would be in there. You would have members of The Clash. Steve Strange was becoming a big star in his own way with “Fade To Grey”. Spandau Ballet did their first ever concert in my warehouse. It was a wonderful and the music was fantastic

JACKIE: That's amazing. So you had this space that you lived in and people could just come and do their creative thing there

TOYAH: Hazel O'Connor came and she formulated the music for the movie "Breaking Glass" there. We were having four days raves!

Hazel O'Connor “Eighth Day" plays JACKIE: That song got to number five in 1980 and was the breakthrough hit for Hazel O'Connor. “Eighth Day, which she wrote, along with the other songs from the “Breaking Glass” soundtrack at Toyah's warehouse squat. So your warehouse provided this creative home for so many artists of the early 80's. When did you get your own big break and land that record deal?

TOYAH: I actually think my big break started when my first TV (show) went on BBC Two. It was called “Glitter” (1976). A superstar called Maximilian Schell was watching with the brilliant actress Kate Nelligan, and they invited me to join them at the National Theatre. That was a big break because I was working with Kate Nelligan, Brenda Blethyn and Warren Clark

I went from astounding job to astounding job and I eventually ended up starring opposite Katharine Hepburn in a movie called “The Corn is Green”. (It was) directed by George Cukor, who directed Judy Garland in “A Star Is Born”

When I was doing that, the production office of a movie called “Quadrophenia” opened next door. The director, Franc Roddam, asked me to get Johnny Rotten through a screen test (for the role of “Jimmy” which went to Phil Daniels), which I did. Then I didn't hear anything and I knew he hadn't cast “Monkey” in the movie of “Quadrophenia” so I stalked Franc Roddam every day. I was outside his office window saying “give me the job”. I got the job

So I was getting a lot of attention. Everyone knew “Quadrophenia” was going to be a big movie. I had a call from a record label called Safari. (They said) could I go and do a kind of promotional concert in front of the heads of Safari? I got the signing. We got signed to Safari Records for about five albums and that was my big break. It took a bit of time. I was a quite a controversial, oddball punk artist for the first releases

Then I was working with a writer called Keith Hale, who'd written a song called “It's A Mystery”, which was a 28 minute music track. We turned that into the single format with a verse chorus, verse, chorus. I wasn't confident about it. It was very feminine at a time when I really didn't want to be gender specific, but it just took off. But the biggest irony is that my costume designer, Melissa Caplan, who designed for us all back then, couldn't get my outfit to me (on time)

I was gender neutral at the time but I had to wear a dress on Top Of The Pops. It was a beautiful dress (below). It was by David Bowie's designer, Willie Brown. I wore that dress and I looked gorgeous - I looked feminine. I went straight to number four in the charts

JACKIE: How amazing. I remember buying that single. You were the equivalent of watching the female version of David Bowie when you were on TV. It was like “OK, what is this? What am I seeing right now? I've never seen anything like this before”

TOYAH: I love that. Thank you

“It's A Mystery” plays

JACKIE: How did you deal with the overnight fame that came with having such a big hit?

TOYAH: I went literally from about four to five years of being in this hierarchy of artists in London to suddenly not being able to leave my front door unescorted. I loved every second of it. I didn't have paparazzi follow me that I know of, but it was pretty intense, and the workload was intense. I was doing at least 14 interviews a day, and those included photo sessions. Then I'd either be doing a TV show or a concert. I did really love it and I'm so grateful for it, but you lose yourself

I always talk about staying in touch with my authentic self. I think the most annoying thing as the years went on was people only saw the colour of my hair. You get this phenomena that everyone talks about that no one listens toyou because you represent something in the other person's life that remains fixed. So my first Top Of The Pops remained fixed in quite a lot of new fans heads

So as I moved on with new music, new hair colour, new styles ... they wanted that moment. They wanted you to remain how you were in that moment. That's quite hard to deal with. It makes you feel a bit trapped. But these days I am so grateful and so proud of what I've done and respectful of who and what I was. I really want to take my fans back to those moments, especially with the live show

I'm singing “It's A Mystery”, “I Want To Be Free”, “Thunder In The Mountains”, “Rebel Run”, “Good Morning Universe”. There's so many. I can see in their faces and their eyes that I've reconnected them to something that gives them clarity about themselves. For me it's a very deliberate move. I want to reshare that moment with them JACKIE: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I remember buying that record. I remember seeing you on Top Of The Pops the first time. It was important because it wasn't just a song I liked. You expanded my mind as well in that moment and that imprints itself on your memory TOYAH: It really does. I think that's why music is so special and so brilliant

JACKIE: I'm just looking at the Top Of The Pops database to see when your first appearance was -

TOYAH: Late February, early March 1981 JACKIE: Correct. Do you remember who was on the show with you?

TOYAH: Oh, I do. I think it was Midge Ure. There was the artist who sang ”Shaddap You Face” (Joe Dolce) There was The Human League and there was definitely Adam Ant

JACKIE: How lovely with Adam being a key figure very early on in your career that you were both on Top Of The Pops together TOYAH: I know and we toured together last year. It was a phenomenally successful tour

Adam And The Ants “Kings Of The Wild Frontier” plays

JACKIE: Let's talk about some of the highlights for you over the course of your career, Toyah. We must mention Toyah and Robert's “Sunday Lunch” on YouTube because it's such an anomaly, so unique. The incredible success of it helped a grateful nation through lockdown. Who saw that coming, eh?

TOYAH: I certainly didn't. We've made remarkable friends. Robert Plant is a regular friend. He comes with us to our local pub. Tony Iommi (of Black Sabbath), we see him socially now. Billy Gibbons from ZZ Top loved our version. And Alice Cooper's been in contact too. It's all because of the kind of stupidity of what we do in our kitchen JACKIE: Any other full circle moments for you?

TOYAH: I see Paul McCartney at least once a year. He awarded me a fellowship for LIPA (Liverpool Institute for Performing Arts) alongside Nile Rogers (below, in 2022). With Paul it's like you're with your brother. He makes you feel like family

JACKIE: It's the Liverpool Institute for Performing Arts that he is a founder of, right? TOYAH: Yes. So every year, when the students graduate, all the fellowship people come and support the students, which means that we get to socialise. Paul always attends and he's absolutely brilliant. The day I got my fellowship, Paul, Nile Rogers and myself were sitting on the stage for three hours together and I'm thinking “I wish my parents could see this”

Paul McCartney “Pipes Of Peace” plays

JACKIE: From 1983 “Pipes Of Peace” from Paul McCartney, providing a pretty special full circle moment for our guest, Toyah - one she wishes she could have shared with her parents. You have come such a long way from from a difficult childhood with a lot of challenges to this amazing career that has spanned 50 years and counting - and an enduring loving marriage of 40 plus years, which is not easy in this business. With the wisdom that time bestows upon us, what's the big life lesson for you? What are you realising at this moment in your life with this perspective?

TOYAH: I always say to people trust your instinctive inner voice. I was brought up to distrust everything and everyone and that's because of my mother's circumstance. My inner voice is really accurate. It's really strong and it's always right and that means everybody else's is too. I would say to anyone trust who and what you are JACKIE: I love that. That authentic self again, tuning into that. What song would you like us to wrap up this hour with, Toyah? TOYAH: Let me think ... I want to share some music with your audience. So I would probably go for Nirvana's “Smells Like Teen Spirit” because deep inside it proves in every decade we're still rebels

Nirvana “Smells Like Teen Spirit” plays

JACKIE: From 1991 “Smells Like Teen Spirit” from Nirvana, the final track of our Great Conversation hour, as chosen by tonight's special guest Toyah. Let's remind folks that the new “Songs and Stories” UK tour kicks off this Sunday in Chelmsford and is visiting 49 destinations across the nation. Or you can also see Toyah at the Rewind Festival this summer in Henley on Thames on August 23rd so I will definitely be seeing you there, Toyah

TOYAH: Come and say hello, please!

JACKIE: Oh, I certainly will. And the new book is called “Meteorite”. Is it available now?

TOYAH: Yes, it's available on the website awaywithmedia.com

JACKIE: Got it. All right, my lovely. All the best. What a pleasure to catch up

TOYAH: It's a pleasure. Thank you JACKIE: That's Toyah, such great company. I'm sure her shows are going to be so much fun too

Listen to the interview

Toyah Willcox: songwriter, performer, actress and TV presenter . . . a popular female icon with a larger-than-life rebellious character that emerged from Britain's late 70's punk explosion with more than a sprinkling of flamboyance and swagger Her music has meandered in style between New Wave, Gothic, Rock and Synthpop, but Toyah consistently pushes musical boundaries and today retains the respect of peers and fans for innovation and originality whilst sticking to her principles Blitzed editors Kurt and Bridget were delighted to speak with Toyah ahead of her forthcoming UK tour, album and book release BLITZED: Last year was a very busy one for you. You had four albums re-issued on Demon Records and Cherry Red, you had radio presenting, your short stories, touring, festivals, television appearances, and “Chameleon” entered the UK album charts

TOYAH: Yes, and I was so knackered by December! And funnily enough, the one thing that really knackered me was simply the travelling. I love the actual work, I love doing Greatest Hits Radio and I'm so grateful to Martin [Kemp] for going into the jungle. I was zipping all over the place. I remember I did an Adam Ant show in Glasgow and then played Union Chapel in London the next day, in Islington, and that was a killer

BLITZED: Going back to the Adam Ant gig, you looked like you were having fun there. Although it was Adam's audience, it was primarily yours as well

TOYAH: It was fabulous. It was absolutely my audience, but they probably haven't seen me for quite a while. There was a dedicated female concentration there that just truly loved him from the 80's into the 90's. And I thought, "Is this going to be tough? Am I intruding on his space?" But they were wonderful and it's probably critically one of the most important things I did last year because I think I won a new audience, and I kind of verified to myself that my music really does belong somewhere

I mean I'm well known, and people know the singles, but they don't necessarily know the albums. I stuck religiously to a punk setlist with Adam, I did with Big Country as well, and it just was the best reaction I've had for that music in a long, long time. It was lovely

BLITZED: Many young women have resonated with you, as one of the main female artists that inspired them musically and visually through the album sleeves, hair, the makeup and the overall look that went so well with the music TOYAH: And this is why my new “Meteorite” book is so visual, so thank you for that. I am kind of reclaiming the fact that I did all this back then, and I did it before many other people did it. So, the book is like we very subtly reclaimed my place in history and my place in time, and that's very deliberate. I'm really proud of everything I've done. I don't go to bed at night or wake up in the morning feeling bitter. I'm constantly trying to live in the present and what do I represent in the present and how do I do that? BLITZED: Who were the artists that you looked up to when you were starting out? TOYAH: I loved Suzie Quatro because she was so unique as a female musician at that time. I loved the women of Motown, but I was heavily into Marc Bolan, David Bowie, Alice Cooper, Roxy Music, all those really glamorous men, very into them. So, when I moved to London, I met a wonderful man called Glenn Marks, who gave me the hugest education in music, he culturally built me. And I bought Velvet Underground, Per Ubu, Kraftwerk, I just bought the right albums We had a punk band together, he was a singer, and I was a singer. But my relationship with him was a purely creative relationship of discovering what new punk bands were out there and buying fanzines, and he printed a fanzine as well. So culturally, I was moving at the speed of light in 1977, and then I met Derek Jarman and I went straight into meeting The Slits, Siouxsie Sioux, Gloria Mundi, who I loved, who had women in the band And Pink Military, Penetration, I thought Pauline Murray was incredible. So suddenly there were women in music, and they were incredible and powerful, and they were strong and empowered, Poly Styrene and really kind of tough fighting women BLITZED: You mentioned earlier the release of “Meteorite”, the definitive Toyah book, and it looks amazing. How did you feel about those historic images and memories, and about sifting through and collating putting the book together?

TOYAH: It was incredible really. I always found it really hard to connect to normality. On one page there is a picture of a gravestone, drawn by me when I was 14 . . . you've got Ozzy Osbourne, David Bowie and Mark Bolan. Putting it all together I just went cold when I saw that. All gone now. But I just think that something like that sums up who I am. I just find it very hard to be normal, and I think that page absolutely sums it up, that I just look for other signs on this planet of other things I'm really glad I had all that material. There are some things I deliberately included because they look incredibly banal, but they really sum up the industry. I actually had to count everything that went in my mouth. I had to write down the calories, and I had to be weighed every day. Even today, I get contracts, if I'm in a movie, that I'm not allowed to alter my weight during the movie That's understandable because if you watch “Some Like It Hot” with Marilyn Monroe, there's a sequence where she's being wooed by Tony Curtis, where she's put about a stone on in weight and they're having to cover her in a shawl, so it's really understandable if you've got a main role that you cannot alter your weight But back then, I knew that if I was to get on Top Of The Pops and to succeed and stay relevant at that time, I had to not put any weight on. So, I included all of that in the book. It's such a beautiful book, and you've got the various versions, the Luxe version with the CD album, then you've got the Super Luxe versions with the vinyl. It's in my favourite colour and it's a point of conversation as well. It's very much a visual history because I think that affects young people strongly I remember looking at book by a makeup artist called Verushka. She was a body painter, and she looked like Venus. She was beautiful, and inspirational to me. I've still got the book. I wanted “Meteorite” to have the same impact BLITZED: The exclusive album that comes with the book includes some new songs and you used Al in the creation of some of the demos. Can you tell us how you harnessed this technology that many people are very wary of already? TOYAH: I'm a lyricist, so I write as Toyah. I don't use Al for any of my creative writing. My short stories are all me, my lyrics are all me. But where you can use Al is as a tool to structure demos and I found that very, very useful. You can add your life experience and your creative theory into Al. Four or maybe five songs out of nine started with AI but that's with me putting in my lyrics, my keys, my voice and then I took them into the Smithy studio in Kempsey with Woody, who's my regular engineer and we stripped them down I replaced all the female voices that AI had generated ... It's weird because in the AI generated voice I could hear Gwen Stefani, I could hear Adele. I could hear Lana Del Rey . . . Al is snatching popular voices that it thinks I want to hear! It's scary. So I went in and I replaced all those vocals with my unique scan, like Bowie had his unique scan And then we stripped away Al instruments and put real musicians on. That's how we did it. But Andy at Away Media needed this project within seven days, and I could not put a band together in that time . . . no way . . . and record it So all AI is doing is just listening to the sounds and frequencies and emulating. But as a learning tool, and as a tool for someone who is learning-challenged it's phenomenal. It's like suddenly being able to be me, and to be able to see and to be able to speak. But I do think that it has to be limited so it cannot become a conscious entity

SHERRIE: I just want to say how excited I am because we've got (on the podcast) the most iconic singer that this country's had, the most talented woman. I can't tell you all the things this woman has done. Please welcome the wonderful Toyah Willcox. Hello, Toyah!

TOYAH: Yay! I am so excited, Sherry, firstly, to be back with you, but also I love Rhyl and I'm playing Lytham St Annes on the 29th of August. It's not being announced yet. And I have a huge announcement connected to Blackpool in August as well SHERRIE: Can you tell us about your huge announcement in Blackpool or not yet?

TOYAH: I can't. I've been in Blackpool virtually every month doing the planning of this. In a week's time I'm filming the event. It's really, really lovely and when it hits I'm so proud of what is going to happen. I took my husband up to Blackpool last month. I don't think he's ever been there. I drove him down the promenade and he said "Oh, this is amazing. I love it" 

SHERRIE: It is! The Blackpool Tower is one of the most wonderful places. I look at that tower every day and it's a different color. I love it. But I have to tell you something. I was Toyah Willcox in "The Russ Abbott Show" (A British sketch comedy series 1979 - 1996)(Toyah laughs) I couldn't send you the photo, so I'm going to show you this now. Can you see that?

TOYAH: Oh, you look fantastic! SHERRIE: (It was) 1982

TOYAH: You look wonderful. That's a great look! SHERRIE: I sang “It's A Mystery” but very, very badly because I can't sing. So everybody in the studio had to run off with their fingers in their ears but I was so proud to be you!

TOYAH: Oh, thank you. Did you have the lisp?

SHERRIE: I tried but I can't do what you can do with that lisp, because that's too sexy. I think it's fantastic. I'm not sexy. You are. But what I think is amazing about your story is your husband. I think your husband is just incredible.  I've always watched him, the best guitarist ever. Robert Fripp. How long have you've been together?

TOYAH: 40 years on May 16th (Toyah and Robert on their wedding day, above) SHERRIE: 40 years! What's that saying ... "you would've got out earlier if you'd killed somebody?” TOYAH: I know but because he's always been touring the longest we've lived together was in lockdown. We loved that. We shared this house. I now have my own home again. We've always had separate homes. (We've) never shared a bank account and maybe that's the secret -

SHERRIE: But you share a bed?

TOYAH: Yeah

SHERRIE: But that's different. Must be complex if you're not in the same house!

TOYAH: He's doing really well (now), but he had a heart attack last May. He's retired so he's mainly going to be doing producing and writing but he won't tour again. Now he's around permanently and I'm thinking when is he going to go on tour? SHERRIE: “I want him out of here!”

TOYAH: I want to be able to think!

SHERRIE: What was that you did in lockdown? Was it lunch something? TOYAH: “Sunday Lunch”

SHERRIE: Yes, so tell me about that?

TOYAH: It's still going strong. It started in lockdown as a connection with our fans and also a connection with people who didn't know what on earth was going on - who were actually stranded in different countries. So we just started reaching out and our first post had 100,000 visits. Last summer we were up to 150 million people visiting and we've had 17 million people in the last measuring period. It's just going up and up and up. We don't understand why

SHERRIE: Well, obviously people love listening to it. What do you talk about? Well, not boring things, obviously

TOYAH: Actually what we're incredibly connected to is being our full, authentic selves - especially at a time like this, when you don't know what is authentic about what you see. So on our “Upbeat Moments”, which is every Saturday at 6 pm - SHERRIE: This is a different thing, though, isn't it? This "Upbeat Moments", because I've watched you on that. I love that. You both take it in turns, don't you?

TOYAH: Yes and we just talk about our week and how we feel. Sometimes it's been a great week, sometimes it's been a surprising week, but it's very, very normal. There's no kind of production. There's no glitz about what we do. It is literally normal ground level life, and people seem to love it. And then every Sunday we go back to “Sunday Lunch”, which is completely outrageous most of the time

SHERRIE: Really? I've only seen your "Upbeats". I haven't seen your "Sunday Lunch". I'll watch it

TOYAH: Well, put it this way: I don't do nudity anymore. I'm 68 and honestly this body needs to be covered now. But during lockdown I looked amazing! I looked the best I've looked in my life at the age of 62 but that's all changing very quickly now. "Sunday Lunch" is music. It's Robert on guitar and it's some ridiculous scenario in the kitchen. We've got a wonderful one this Sunday. It's going to outrage people  

SHERRIE: Don't tell us. Let people watch. That's exciting, though, isn't it? Your career amazes me because you've gone from this punk girl that we know, that I joined in with, to do films and you've done television, narration. Do you like narrating?

TOYAH: Yeah. Love it

SHERRIE: You did "Teletubbies", didn't you?

TOYAH: Yeah, it was just two lines. I did it as a favor to my friend Dan Wood, the creator of Ragdoll Productions. (Puts on the Teletubbies voice) “Over the hills and far away, Teletubbies come out to play. The sun setting in the sky, Teletubbies say goodbye”. Before then I was 100% of all of the voices on “Brum” (a British kids TV series 1991 - 2002) (above) I did “Pob” (a British kids show "Pob's Programme" 1985 - 1990) with Nigel Kennedy

And I've done lots of nature documentaries. Now I write “Toyah's Wonderful World Of Weird”, which is a short story series that I write and then I narrate to camera. I try to do one a month

SHERRIE: What about animation? Have you done animation voices? I love animation. Any chance I get in to do a voice I do it TOYAH: I don't think I have SHERRIE: You should

TOYAH: I don't remember. I'll look into it

SHERRIE: It's about your lifestyle. You can create your own lifestyle around it. Because there's no travelling anywhere and now you're back living on your own there's no excuse

TOYAH: I'm travelling a lot this year. I'm doing 49 dates of a storytelling tour, right the breadth of the UK. That starts in March in Chelmsford SHERRIE: When you say a storytelling tour - what do you actually mean by that? TOYAH:  I have a book out called "Meteorite", which is a visual biography. It's just the most beautiful book and that is exclusively available on the tour. So I'm going to be doing two acts on the tour. I do five songs per act. I have two guitarists, one either side of me and I tell the stories from the book SHERRIE: And do you sing?

TOYAH: Yeah, I'll be doing five songs per act SHERRIE: Wow! I was saying about the world we live in now - it's a very difficult world for us all. You have to find something else in your life and create it. If you look at yourself there's plenty of stuff in there. You've just got to get it out and do things and that's what you're doing

TOYAH: Totally agree. I think it's a challenge that faces everybody every moment in time. I love to work and I admire you doing panto (mime). I stopped panto 12 years ago because of the introduction of weighted fire doors in theatres. I was tearing all of my tendons just opening the fire doors. I said to my agent I've either got to be on the stage or the side of the stage 100% of the time. I cannot continually open these fire doors

I was doing so much damage to my shoulders that we made the decision that unless I can be in a dressing room right by the wings I can't do that again. I did panto for 18 years and I did fabulous pantos. They were so exciting with great cast members. I loved it but I just can't put myself in a situation where I need surgery after doing 92 shows

SHERRIE: I know you have had problems in your life and surgery problems. How is that now? TOYAH: It's absolutely fine. I've had surgery successes. I did "Strictly (Come Dancing)" (a British celebrity dance competition show, above) last year. I would like to have done it 20 years earlier. So I did "Strictly" with a prosthetic in my hip and feet that are completely restructured. It was very painful in those shoes

But actually I found that "Strictly" made me the healthiest I've ever been. I felt really empowered and fabulous. I loved the training. I loved being with the team in the studio. My goodness, it was the best in the world. But I think if I did it 20 years earlier people could've seen how I originally moved

SHERRIE: What you could do?

TOYAH: Yes  SHERRIE: My mother and father were ballroom dancers. Particularly my mother was an amazing ballroom dancer but I always say there is a limit and there is a time - and it's not always the right time. It's the same with anything like "Dancing On Ice" (a British celebrity ice dancing competition) and "Strictly". You have to know your limits, otherwise you can be injured quite easily. I know people who did "Ice" who were injured TOYAH: Both in ice and ballroom dancing you're equal to Olympians. I saw them (the professional dancers on "Strictly Come Dancing") in the pain that you see professional ballet dancers in. They work through this constant pain barrier and the timing of what they do, the positions of what they do. It's miraculous

SHERRIE: I did ballet up to the age of 17 when I went on to do drama school and I didn't do ballet again. I remember watching the blood coming out of my ballet shoes as I was on pointe. So I know that pain. I look at "Strictly" now and I think people don't realise how hard it is

TOYAH: And they have blood in their shoes. That's dedication. It's incredible

SHERRIE: But you enjoyed it, though?

TOYAH: I loved the process and the being in the bubble of it. I've never come against such a tide of hate from outside

SHERRIE: What do you mean by tide of hate?

TOYAH: My memory of me actually being in the public forum of "Strictly" - well, put it this way - my lawyer has never been so busy with with fake accusations and all of that. I've never experienced anything like it. Have you done "Strictly"?

SHERRIE: No

TOYAH: It's unbelievable. I thought I'd go in there and I would be able to go on a journey and win people (over). My experience from the outside world was very hostile, but the actual bubble - and being in that bubble was one of the best things I've ever experienced

SHERRIE: Did you come to terms with it, though? Did you come to terms with the hatred that you got? Did you understand why? There can't be a reason for it, surely? 

TOYAH: I think it's just a very common side of social media. I can never understand why Meghan Markle is hit on. She's done nothing wrong that I can see. Her wedding was beautiful. Everyone loved her in this country and then suddenly it flipped. Being in that experience, which is like standing in front of a tidal wave, I thought oh, OK and I just didn't respond to it. I don't think you can feed it. It's click bait. So I didn't respond at all. I just let it go

I've always had a great legal team. There was one story when I left, where we were straight to Reuters (news agency) and they were brilliant. They pulled the story because we just said "look at what I said and look at how it's being reinterpreted". They agreed and pulled the story. But I've always been really hot on that. You know what it's like in the public eye. You just don't let something grow if it's not true

SHERRIE: There is a moment in your life when you go "do you know what? Blank it. Because I'm not interested"

TOYAH: Our time is precious. Your time is precious. I'm not wasting time on hate for anything

SHERRIE: They're what you call "keyboard warriors". They've got nothing to do apart from sit on that keyboard all day

TOYAH: I think it's something else also. It's an immaturity of experience. You and I - we've put our feet down on the ground. We've travelled. We've worked really hard. We've suffered exhaustion during stage runs. We've had a lot of experience

SHERRIE: And survived TOYAH: And survived. We are survivors. Sometimes I was hearing things back because I was only told about things that I needed to legally jump on. They said "it's children. You don't respond to children. They don't know any better. They are reacting because they are a fan of someone else. They'll do anything to put you lower down the leaderboard"

I have an incredible media team. If you've got 150 million people watching you in the world, you have a great media team. They could find where everything was coming from. We can actually pinpoint every address. It was very young children who love "Strictly". They love the professional dancers. They were playing a game and I just didn't join into that SHERRIE: Do you think it's the same on things like the jungle ("I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here!", a British celebrity survival show) (above)?  TOYAH: When I did the jungle 2003 we didn't have this social media. I had no idea what was going on. But similarly when I got home from the jungle, you then see the press cuttings and the judgment about your physical body and all of that. It never occurred to me in the jungle how extreme opinions become. But again, our time is too precious. We are both very positive people. I'm not going to waste an ounce of time on this planet dealing with irrational responses

SHERRIE: No, absolutely. I've always said that you have an edge about you. I hope I've got an edge about me. It's like don't mess with me because you'll come up far worse TOYAH: I've got a meeting today with an ex editor of "Now" magazine and Australian Vogue. I met them two weeks ago. This is about a new project. I'm exactly how I am with you today. At the end of the meeting she said "god, you've got a hard edge!" It's just survival

SHERRIE: Good! You need a hard edge and you need to get out there and tell them exactly what you think. Why wouldn't you? Why would you accept anything else? You and I have been around too long to put up with any bullshit. That's the end of the story. That's what I always say Do you have any regrets at all in your life? Do you go "what if I had done that?" Because I often do that in my head at night when I'm lying in bed. I won't sleep because I have insomnia

TOYAH: I have insomnia. I sleep between about 6 and 9 am 

SHERRIE: I don't know if you do this but I wake up and know exactly what time it is TOYAH: Yes, I always wake up at midnight SHERRIE: I wake at midnight. Then I'll wake at 2.30, then probably 4.30, 4.45 and I know exactly what time it is

TOYAH: It's when I watch movies. I was working with Carol Vorderman yesterday - 

SHERRIE:Really?! She's funny, isn't she?

TOYAH: She's fabulous! But the night before I couldn't sleep so I just stayed up watching movies. I watched “The Piano”, I watched “The Eyes Of Tammy Faye”, these fabulous movies. But let's get back to regrets. This is something I will never be able to let go of and I'm praying reincarnation is possible. I really regret that I never was encouraged to study music theorytechnicallyfurther than I did

So I really regret not stamping my feet with my parents and saying "I want piano lessons, I want guitar lessons. I want theory lessons". I am a natural musician. I'm a natural singer. I have perfect pitch but it's taken me years to actually get music through my fingers. I regret it so much. I have this present day argument with people because AI will wipe out the music industry if we let it. But for a dyslexic, it's the most valuable tool in the world

SHERRIE: I can understand that completely

TOYAH: So just before Christmas and I'm really going to name-drop here - I was invited to Clarence House to meet Queen Camilla. I went with Robert and we walked there with the professor who created AI and won the Nobel Prize for it. I was walking down The Mall and I said to him "I am so grateful for AI, because dyslexic minds just race too quickly. I can get all of that info into Dictate (a speech-to-text system) and into AI at the speed I think and it's made things possible for me." And twice he said to me "you will be replaced". I said "no, it's making me grow". And he said "you will be replaced". He was adamant SHERRIE: But did he explain why and how?

TOYAH: Yes. We've all become algorithms, which is why I will not respond to hate. Hate creates the most reward experience. It creates the most emotional responses. Algorithms feed on this. If you tell AI something and it draws that instant aggressive response, they're going to keep you aggressive. So with me and my relationship with AI is getting the right words because I am "Mrs. Malarop" (a character in a play "The Rivals" (1775) that uses the wrong words)

It's getting the message across, getting it out of there because it's been locked in my head thanks to not taking education seriously and becoming a more expressive artist. He said that algorithms will just build you, replace you and ignore what they don't get reward from. I'm paraphrasing but that was in the conversation

SHERRIE: Did that frighten you? TOYAH: I thought I felt a bit bullish about it actually, because it's helping me be super creative. I just persevered. I said "you've got to bear in mind, there's people with educational difficulties that are really going to benefit from this. They will have a normal life because of this". I was bullish. I think he actually gave up on me in the end SHERRIE: Good. That's why we have to move forward and you can't take (on) people like that. I know you have to take them seriously, but you have to be your own person and go forward TOYAH: We have to be authentic. I'm fascinated by the Beckham story at the moment about Brooklyn Beckham who's estranged. I actually feel for him when he said in his statement that he needs to be his authentic self. I totally understand it SHERRIE: I understand that. But Cruz (the younger brother) is going along with him now. Look at the Beckhams and the life they've lived. It's not a normal life, is it? So they have their own way TOYAH: They're a family, they live in the public eye. That's tough in itself. We've seen what can happen to what appear to be very beautiful people. They are suddenly in the arena and facing the lions and I don't understand why

SHERRIE: I think it's the world we live in. If you're an insomniac, everything, when you hit that pillow, starts to go through your head. You then start to create this really weird world that we live in, and you have to come out of it. Then you have to wake up, if you've had some sleep, and live this life that we live - which is why I'm fascinated by all the things you do. Noel Fielding is a friend of yours, isn't he?

TOYAH: Oh, I love Noel!

SHERRIE: What was the weird film you did with him?  TOYAH: “Ahhhhhhhh!” where we all played humans that only talked ape. It is totally outrageous SHERRIE: And it's still around if you wanted to see it? TOYAH: Yes, it's its 10th anniversary this year. You can order it. You can see it on Sky and Amazon. It is totally outrageous. I mean, it is XXX rated. But we had so much fun doing it

SHERRIE: You had a very good cast with you as well TOYAH: The cast were incredible. Julian Barratt played my husband. Julian Rhind-Tutt played my lover. Steve Oram (below with Toyah), who's often in horror movies, was the creator, director and the lead. We had a very good fun shoot

SHERRIE: Didn't you do something with Katharine Hepburn? TOYAH: Yes, when I was 19. It was “The Corn Is Green”, the Welsh play by Emlyn Williams. Katharine loved Wales and she wanted to produce and make this movie. She produced it with George Cukor, the director who discovered Marilyn Monroe and directed Judy Garland in "A Star Is Born". They came to England and held auditions. Katharine said she fell in love with me the moment she met me. I played the young antagonist. We went to Wales. We shot in Wales. What I loved about doing this is Katharine loved meeting real people. She would meet everyone in the villages we worked in. She would even have supper, lunch, sometimes breakfast with them She was so generous. Her spirit was generous. When we did the interior scenes in Wembley (studios) someone broke onto the set. We were filming one of my big scenes and Katharine spotted them behind the scenery. She walked out of the scene, stopped the shoot and grabbed the person. It was my father! She said "who are you?" My father's called Beric. He said "I'm Beric, I'm Toyah's father". I was mortified and she took him to lunch! SHERRIE: No way! Wow! I've always admired Katharine Hepburn and the fact that you've actually worked with her, because she has a strange quality. Does she really, in real life, have that kind of - TOYAH: All the A-listers I've worked with - Lawrence Olivier, John Mills, I've worked with them all and at the National Theater as well. They all have very large auras, not egos, but auras. Aura's glow. They're fabulous to be with SHERRIE: I knew Steve McQueen. It's a long story, so I won't bore you with it, but I met him and he had the most amazing aura. And Paul Newman, both of those guys. Just breathtaking. You couldn't speak in their presence TOYAH: I found that with Roger Daltrey. I played his wife in a movie about 1984 ("Murder: The Ultimate Grounds For Divorce") We had to do intimate scenes and sequences and I was (pretends to stutter) SHERRIE: You didn't go there, did you? TOYAH: Oh, god no! I'm friends with his wife, Heather. I love men and I'm always absolutely bowled over by male beauty. Perhaps not so much now I'm older, but  I've always felt so lucky as an actress to have beautiful male actors SHERRIE: I've worked with some and I did regret not sleeping with some of them if I'd have had the chance. But did I have the chance? I don't know. I might have had the chance TOYAH: That's never happened to me because I'm too short and too dumpy SHERRIE: You're the same height in bed and when you stand up so it doesn't make any difference what height you are TOYAH: Yeah but I don't have what men are looking for SHERRIE: You do! Of course you do. It's when you look back and you think that would have been fun. I could have had a story there. But I was too shy and too silly. Harrison Ford was another one, but only because he said "do you play around?" And I didn't know what he meant  TOYAH: How long ago was that? SHERRIE: Was that when EMI (a film and production hub) was at Borehamwood. So it would have been in the 70's. He was beautiful. Absolutely stunning. He'd sit it in the corner and contemplate what he should be doing. I'm sure he's a very different man now. I was just gobsmacked by him. He asked me out for dinner and I went, but there were 15 other women at the same table

TOYAH: Greta Scacchi (above with Toyah in 1984) told me this. Greta doing a movie in New York with him. I think it was “Indecent Proposal” (she means "Presumed Innocent", 1990) She was invited to dinner and there were 15 women around the table SHERRIE: He obviously does this all the time. Well, not now TOYAH: His wife was there when Greta was there. But yeah, if I was a beautiful man I'd do the same

SHERRIE: So would I. Anyway I didn't and wouldn't and couldn't and I'm a different person now. I can't now because I'm too old! Anyway, I want to talk about your book again. Tell me all about it?

TOYAH:  It's already out. It's selling on Amazon and on my website (Gets the book to show Sherrie) It's my favorite color. Very beautiful. I wanted it to be visual because, as a dyslexic, visuals are stronger to me than printed word. So it's a visual autobiography. I mean, how beautiful is that? SHERRIE: So who did all that for you? TOYAH: This is all from my archive. I spent 10 days in Dictate meetings where we dictated my story. I had a wonderful writer called Carl. I can't remember his surname, but he put all the words together. Then I had the most astonishing book designer called Michelle, who pieced it all together. But this has all come from my private archive. It's called "Meteorite" because I love the term "shooting star". I love the term star, but I sometimes think I'm more of a meteorite than I am a glowing, perfect star

SHERRIE: It's absolutely stunning. So now you're going on this tour? TOYAH: Yeah, the tour is stories and songs. We're doing lovely town theaters, 49 dates this year. We might put some more in in the autumn. I'm doing two movies this year. I'm the lead in both of them. Small British budgets. I've got to be available for those. But the theatre tour - I want it to be uplifting and inspirational. There's a story in my life that the book opens with. I had a very bad relationship with my mother

My mother's childhood was destroyed by her father murdering her mother. This went on to shape my life and my family's life, because none of us knew. It didn't come out till ancestry.com contacted me because the newspaper cuttings became available in the public arena. They said "you need to know this". My mother was the most pessimistic, sometimes the most cruel human being I have ever known, but she was also the most protective mother. She was a paradox. She made me, all of us, really mad. If you said to her “please don't put sugar in my tea” she'd put the whole bowl in. If you said to her you're allergic to raspberries, she would give you a bowl of raspberries. It was madness

She needed help. She needed therapy and she never asked for it. But I want my story to start with a song, which is one of my first singles called “Bird In Flight”. It's the moment I left home. When I left home I could fly. That's my story. I don't want any woe is me. The surgery ... well, I've benefited from the miracle of medicine. That's a good story. I left home. I benefited by being free. It's all good news. I want my evening to be funny. I want it to be really outrageous and it will be outrageous SHERRIE: Going back to your mother - when she died did you look back and think if I'd have known, what could I have done?

TOYAH: Yes because I felt furiously protective towards her. When I was in my 30's I bought the family house so they didn't lose their home. Then when I hit 50, I bought them a retirement cottage on the river Avon. I was furiously protective of them. I could not understand how someone could be so dysfunctional. The two days before she lost consciousness, she was screaming for me at the hospice because I just played Manchester Pride, and I went straight to the hospice and sat with her. She needed me there, because I have faith. I don't believe in death. Death is a stupid word. Nothing dies. We just transition. We go on

She wanted me there because she just couldn't believe that something very special was about to happen. I sat with her. She had a friend in who was a devout Christian, which I never understood until after her death, when we realised her friend was trying to give us some optimism. A mother and daughter, who could not be in the same room as each other ever, we were together those last two days and it was very powerful. But I don't want my show to be about grief. I want it to be about the exceptional person I became because of circumstance

SHERRIE: It's about celebration, not grief and your mother would agree with that, wouldn't she? TOYAH: She was a remarkable woman. She was a beautiful dancer. She danced at Lytham St. Anne's, Blackpool. My father saw her on the pier at Weston-supe-Mare. She was a remarkable woman who had her life stolen from her by her father. But let's celebrate the positive

SHERRIE: Did you know her father? TOYAH: No, because my mother was 16 when it happened. She had a 24 hour chaperone that point on until she married my father. My father never knew why. He was never alone with her until the wedding. At the night of the wedding, the chaperone, who was a woman who lived with my mother 24/7 said “right, she's yours now” because the father was still alive and considered dangerous SHERRIE:That's an amazing story

TOYAH: I'll have to turn it into a drama

SHERRIE: Absolutely. You should write it TOYAH: These are the situations that made me who and what I am today. I hope I'm a positive, inspiring person

SHERRIE: You are to everybody. Also, on a lighter note, can I just say your outfits through your lifetime as Toyah Willcox are just mind-blowing! Did they come from you or somewhere else? TOYAH: There's always a team involved

SHERRIE: But it's you, though?

TOYAH: I hope this isn't (cultural) appropriation, but I'm so inspired by Kabuki theatre and really inspired by the culture and the beliefs and the lifestyle of the Masai. Quite a few of my songs are about their rituals, which I believe are really healthy rituals - where young boys go into the wasteland and have to kill a boar and cannot come back till they've made that kill because it proves they can protect a family. I just always believed in these cultures and they're very reflective in my work and in what I wear

When I started I didn't want to be female. I wanted to be third gender, which was a non-specific gender. So all of those clothes covered me up, but they told a story. They told a story about the cultures I love. I realised by the time we got to about 1980 and I was on the movie “Quadrophenia” - if I didn't become female specific, I was not going to get work. I had to join them because I couldn't beat them at that point SHERRIE: Were you beyond your time then? Because that's exactly what's happening now TOYAH: I didn't want to be male or female SHERRIE: That's quite interesting. You would have been thought of as a little bit odd, strange, mad TOYAH: I still am! Everyone thinks I'm peculiar! As a woman I was constantly judged by having legs that weren't long and attractive and a body shape that was just too muscular. I was too short for the camera. It was always wrong, wrong, wrong. And I just went well, fuck you. I'll be non-gender

SHERRIE: "Here I am, this is what I am". I totally agree with you, but you're right - it was a (different) time, wasn't it? Now it wouldn't matter

TOYAH: It was a very different time. If you were beautiful and glamorous you would work a lot, but you'd have to put up with a lot as well. I've seen everything you have done. I love everything you have done. I love everything from “Carry On” (films) through to even "Benny Hill (Show)", but it was a (different) time

SHERRIE: This thing with woke and everything. There are warnings on things like “Dad's Army”. I find that bizarre, because what are we warning people about? What are we all supposed to be afraid of? I think it's difficult, isn't it, to know where this word woke came from, and where it sat there But I understand and I say to people "listen - that was then - you can't wipe that out". Like what ... we're going to wipe them all out and there's going to be nothing left and we don't look back TOYAH: And also it doesn't mean that we've remained those people SHERRIE: No! That's what I say! TOYAH: I don't like hearing derogatory things about the different races in the world. I think it's cruel and it always has been cruel. I've never had to say those things as an actress, thank goodness. But we were in a situation in “Quadrophenia” where beautiful, wonderful, very loved Trevor Laird was not allowed to date a white girl in the story because the film would not be distributed in the south part of America SHERRIE: Seriously!? TOYAH: We all talked about going on strike. We were powerless and we, as a team of actors, just came forward and said "what are you thinking? This is inhuman". But because there are these subject matters in the kind of “Love Thy Neighbour” (a 1970's sitcom that used racist language) it doesn't mean we've remained the same people. I've been on a huge educational curve because I do motivational speaking About 15 years ago, the singer Hazel Dean's lovely daughter Stevie pointed out that if I love Boadicea, Mata Hari and all of these very white female protagonists - and I was talking about Florence Nightingale - Stevie pointed out to me that Florence wasn't the one that did all that. It was a black nurse. I've been on this massive learning curve trying to learn everything. Re-see it through the eyes of today, because I had a very white education. There's nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with changing how you see the world SHERRIE: Yeah but you do it in a certain way. Not with aggression, not with hatred - like you said, your "Strictly" journey. People are too quick to fire up and go "yes, but if we'd have done that" or "don't do that". Life isn't that. It's a gentle journey. Don't fight everything that you see When I did the “Russ Abbot's Saturday Madhouse” - there are things in that you couldn't show now because it is wrong, but you don't fight back and go "oh, that's terrible. Oh, be very careful" because otherwise you're fighting yourself and we'll all end up like that TOYAH: Look at the other side of that coin. You and I have so much experience and so much knowledge that we would really like to share. I'm often asked by very young students how do you get into the music industry? How do you get the experience of engineering in a studio? So I tell them the best, most active studios to apply to knowing that most people can do everything at home now on one computer Young people need to experience life out there, to experience what it's like to be with a diva in a studio, in front of a camera. You have to handle people because you are going to be working, if you're lucky, with very successful people who have time for no one but themselves. You've got to be able to handle that SHERRIE: You've got to give these kids some life skills. If a young actress says to me "how do I start?" I say go to a theatre. Go and brush the stage. Go make tea. Go and watch those people and never stop watching. Never stop learning. In my great age now I still learn. Every time I see anything I'm learning. It might not be good, it might be bad, but I'll learn Don't sit at home and go "I can do this all on my phone". These bloody phones. They're a nightmare with teenagers now. I've got grandchildren who will speak to each other on the phone and they're just there next to each other. Put them down! But life is strange now with that TOYAH: I don't phone anyone now. I used to phone friends all the time. We do go out to lunch a lot but just having a relaxed phone call doesn't happen anymore in my life - which is very weird

HOLLY: My guest today is English singer songwriter, actress and presenter Toyah Willcox. Toyah rose to prominence in the late 1970's and early 1980's as a distinctive voice of the new wave and punk movement. Fronting the band Toyah, she achieved major UK success with her 1981 album “Anthem” and hit singles including “It's A Mystery” and “Thunder In The Mountains”, which both peaked at number four in the UK Singles Chart, respectively, and earned her multiple Brit Award nominations Beyond music, Willcox has maintained a diverse career in film, theatre and television, performing on stage at the National Theatre and appearing alongside Phil Daniels, Ray Winston and Sting in The Who's rock opera film “Quadrophenia”. She is married to guitarist Robert Fripp of King Crimson, and we do discuss in this chat their creative and rather humorous videos they post on social media We touch upon Toyah's life growing up in this chat, her surprising thoughts on AI in songwriting and where on earth she gets all that energy from. Welcome to "Popnerd", Toyah. Thank you so much for joining me today

TOYAH: It's a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me

HOLLY: This for you is a big year of performances. You've got Henley on Thames, you're performing at "Rewind", you've got some Christmas shows, but you start things off with this marvelous tour called "An evening with Toyah - Songs and Stories". What can we expect with this show?

TOYAH: It's a visual show. Because everything I do I prefer to be visual. It's how I work. Music for me is a very visual thing. When video came into being around 1981, when it really took off with MTV, it was fantastic for me because I just have always written music with visuals in my head. So with the “Songs And Stories” tour we have a small screen and the visuals will be up there, but they'll be synced to what I'm doing

So the whole thing, like when I sing a song, will be synced to the official video. When I'm telling stories about working with Katharine Hepburn and Lawrence Olivier (below with Toyah, Greta Scacchi and Roger Rees in the 1984 film "The Ebony Tower") there will be photos to accompany it

Also there'll be some behind the scenes photos. So I want to immerse my audience in my experience, and also inspire the audience to believe in themselves. We live in a world of saturation. I think many people have dreams that they've never visited, or ideas that they've just let go of as soon as they thought of them

I just want people to go out of my show on this particular tour and think “oh, my goodness, I really want to have a go at that. I really want to see if I can do something in my life that I've always intended to do but have never been encouraged to do”. I'm really into that. I'm hoping that I'll inspire people to just look at their own creativity

HOLLY: This is a message that has been woven through a lot of your music throughout your whole career. I'm just thinking of "I Want To Be Free" or something like that. I can imagine you performing that and feeling the same sentiment that you had when you first performed it

TOYAH: Well, I feel it even more now. That song means more to me now than ever before - but so do most of my hit songs because it's a shared experience, yet again, with the audience. When I sing, “I Want To Be Free”, "It's A Mystery" or even "Rebel Run" I see the audience being taken right back to a memory of old, which they're revisiting. It's highly emotional

Most of the time I'm looking out at people that sometimes are in tears because I've taken them back to being with their parents or their first kiss. I always say with “I Want To Be Free” I hope it takes you back to your first detention (Holly laughs)

But that song is not a novelty song. It's a song from a severely dyslexic human being. Even my parents told me I would amount to nothing, let alone my educational background and that song really means something to me. It's got such truth in it

The most prized memory I have of this song is in 2018 when Derek Jarman's movie “The Jubilee” was brought to the stage by a gender neutral cast. They chose that song as a representative of who and what they are in their generation. That was just so profoundly powerful for me

HOLLY: It's really interesting because you touched upon your dyslexia as a child. I'm really interested to go back to your childhood. You were someone who really championed the arts and acting and singing and music. Did you come from a musical household? Was that something that was really encouraged?

TOYAH: When I was very young I had absolutely no idea that I was perceived as someone with learning difficulties. So my very young childhood was very naive but incredibly happy. My mother was a professional dancer from the age of 12 till 19, when she got married. She toured alongside people like Max Wall, the comedian, and many of the vaudeville stars of the time. She was a very beautiful woman. She was like a beauty queen as well

So I inherited some of that. My father loved music, but he was tone deaf. He used to put on the Coldstream Guards (an regiment in the British Army) every morning and sing along to it but in one note. There was only one note and it used to drive me bonkers (Holly laughs)

So in my childhood I remember as being very happy, but then it just took a sinister turn. In the early to mid 60's there was a stock market crash and my father was hit by that. So by the time I was 12 my parents were going to lose the home and lose everything. By the time I was 16 I was the breadwinner and that's fine. I remained the breadwinner right through to when they died. I bought the family home so they could stay in in their home. I bought them a retirement home and I financially supported them

I thought that's what I was supposed to do. I don't resent that, but it made life very challenging. I could never have a day off. That feeling of "I will be punished by losing my home if I ever take time off" has never left me. But creatively that desire to be as creative as I am came from being told I will amount to nothing

HOLLY: Wow, that's crazy. That's just crazy, isn't it?

TOYAH: Well, today I'm so inspired by people telling me I'm no good at what I do (Holly laughs) Honestly, if you want me to work twice as hard as I already work, tell me I'm no good at what I do because I will prove you wrong

HOLLY: But then that's what helped create the unique Toyah sound. That's what brought you that amazing sound and that sound world. That punky energy that you had in the late 70's, early 80's period

TOYAH: I agree. But I think one of the biggest things that contributed to my creativity, and I do a lot of creative writing today, was discovering the book “The Lord of the Rings”. It took me three years to read. Literature really meant a lot to me, and that literature, again, was visual. When I read a book it's a film in my head. That emotion and that drive and that endorphin lift from reading a great book just makes me want to write music and sing and storytell through music

HOLLY: I know in your songs you've referenced Shakespeare and Carl Jung and all sorts of figures. I'm going to hazard a guess here. Are you the kind of person who writes lyrics first before you write a melody when you're writing a song?

TOYAH: In this present day I do write lyrics first. When I was contributing as a co-writer on “Posh Pop” (the 2021 album) I was writing on guitar and coming up with chord sequences first. It's a little of both. I have to say, with the advent of AI I can put lyrics into AI and they're teaching me how to scan them. What I mean by that is I sometimes have to dilute my lyrics for how I scan as a singer. This is how I place words within a tune

AI is helping to teach me to use a different scanning that I can fit more complex words into a line. The prime example of someone who scans brilliantly is Taylor Swift and Lana Del Rey. Their scanning is unbelievable. I never learned to do that. No one ever taught me to do it, but AI is teaching me. So I can put a lyric that I really want to keep pure and I really need it to tell the story to get to the chorus - I can put that in AI and it will scan it to 4/4 (timing) for me. Then I create the melody

HOLLY: Wow, that's so interesting. It's so cool

TOYAH: I'm having this argument with quite a lot of people because they just don't want AI in music. I've always had a problem with how to scan. You can hear it on the very first two albums I made, which I think is what makes them so unique. I'm slightly off the beat and now I don't have to be off the beat. I can learn how to scan

HOLLY: Wow, that's so fascinating because I think a lot of musicians are very against AI. It's got quite a bad press, but it actually can be used to really help and hone that creativity

TOYAH: Yeah. I will not let AI replace me, which is the argument. AI learns everything we do and it can replace you. With me it's just lifting the frustration out of my life and saying "you can fit that word into this melodic line"

HOLLY: It's really cool. Your melody lines are so fascinating to me. They're really quite angular and you push your voice to the extremes in quite a lot of your songs. I'm interested to know do you sit at a piano and write those kind of lines or does it just come to you like "this is what I'm feeling and this is what I'm giving it"?

TOYAH: When I write a line it belongs somewhere but hasn't yet been given its place. So (for example from "Thunder In The Mountains") “where the mountains meet the sea” - that was visually stronger to me the moment I wrote it. Then I thought "well, how do I represent that in music?" Then I just ... I don't know. I go somewhere deep inside me to do with my base chakra or my solar plexus and I just think "OK, we're looking at these chords. How can I make those words resonate as powerfully within music as they do within the image that's in my head" 

So it's all just making connections. With “IEYA”, which is off "The Blue Meaning", which my long term die-hard fans really love - I wanted something that they just represented. The human being shouting beyond the ether into the universe and I just chose those syllables. That is a purely emotional, emotive chorus. Whereas “I Want To Be Free” is an absolute statement

HOLLY: Absolutely. It's so interesting. He's a very different sort of performer to you, but I watched an interview with Rick Astley -

TOYAH: Oh, I love him!

HOLLY: He's great, isn't he? He was talking about how when he sung songs written by (the producers) Stock, Aitken and Waterman they were really tricky to sing because they would really push him vocally to the limits. The songs would be quite high

TOYAH: That's a scanning thing as well. Stock, Aitken and Waterman write on the piano. They do a scanning of the words on the piano, which is constructed through the fingers. If you aren't vocally acrobatic like Mariah Carey or Celine Dion or Adele, it sometimes doesn't suit your vocal style or the muscular use of your vocal cords. I totally get what Rick Astley is saying. So where did he come out of that conversation?

HOLLY: He was saying with Stock, Aitken and Waterman it sat really high and they'd really push him to the limit. But when he writes his own songs it sits really comfortably. He sits it in the middle of his range. I feel you're sort of the opposite of that. "It's A Mystery" - which I know you contributed to a little bit feels more straightforward vocally. Then something like “Neon Womb” sits very low and it goes very high. You're really happy to push your vocal range to the extreme and I love that

TOYAH: I love performing "Neon Womb". It was one of the first songs that I co-wrote with (guitarist) Joel Bogen and (keyboardist) Pete Bush - 

HOLLY: Who were in your band at the time -

TOYAH: They were in my first band. "Neon Womb" was on "Sheep Farming In Barnet" (the 1979 album) and it's one of the first tracks I ever recorded. Within a live performance I like to feel possessed by the music. I like something else to come into my body in a completely different experience

So with “Neon Womb" and "IEYA" - when I sing those it's as if I've touched the higher self and I'm just completely taken over. Something comes into the body that plays my body like an instrument. "It's A Mystery" was written by a man and it was written for a man's voice, which is why it's a slightly more stable vocal line

HOLLY: Yes, interesting. It's very cool. When you're getting ready for these performances that are vocally quite challenging and a big performance, how do you warm yourself up for that? Are you doing vocal exercises and warming up the body and that sort of thing, or do you just go out there and rock it?

TOYAH: There's very split decision on this, because I know so many people that do do vocal warm ups. I never do because I suffer from nerves. I mean very good nerves before a performance. The tension goes right into my body and if I start doing a warm up it's signaling to my body that I'm about to put it through a shocking experience. So the best thing that I can do is relax

I pace, I constantly walk. I sometimes hum very low, but I never ever use my voice until I'm in the the atmospheric air of the performance arena. You can warm up all you want in a centrally heated dressing room but once you get onto that stage, the humidity of the audience is completely different. So I always open with a song that is relatively easy for me to sing

HOLLY: Nice. So that's the warm up 

TOYAH: That's the warm up. Then I start to open the vocal cords. I have to open my vocal chords before I do “Thunder In The Mountains” or they will shut down. So I find the second song is usually something I can open up the vocal chords to like “Echo Beach”. That way I don't start coughing when I go into the chorus of “Thunder In The Mountains”

HOLLY: Absolutely. You touched upon "Echo Beach" there. You're someone who's done numerous fantastic covers of songs. The one that really sticks out to me is your wonderful performance of “Slave To The Rhythm” by Grace Jones. Am I right in thinking you sung the demo of that song?

TOYAH: Yes, I was on the original demo when it was being formed and written

HOLLY: Amazing. You've also sung (Frankie Goes To Hollywood's) “Relax” as well. So you've done a couple of Trevor Horn tracks

TOYAH: Trevor, after he heard Simon Darlow's (below on the left, with Toyah and her husband Robert) and my version of “Slave To The Rhythm”- because Simon Darlow is one of the original writers of it - Trevor invited me to do "Relax". It's an interesting story. He wanted it to be a robotic version, possibly AI, but he wanted a robot voice singing “Relax”. The record label in Germany didn't accept it. They said no, it had to be a human. So he asked me if I would do it. The record company accepted that, but he very much wanted me to sing it robotically

HOLLY: In a lot of your songs you're often not the sole songwriter. There's you and a few others members of your band. Has collaboration always been quite an important aspect to you of music making?

TOYAH: It's very important when it comes to arrangement. I can send a song in that has the basic chords, it has the full lyric and the vocal melody, but I can't do what a band does. So it's really important to have that collaboration and respect that collaboration, because they bring something to the song that makes it more fully formed

HOLLY: I can totally imagine that. Moving on to what you're doing with your life, performances and everything coming up. I'm part of Generation Z, which is people who were born between 1997 and 2012 but we're quite a nostalgic generation. We're very much looking back at a time which we weren't actually around for I'm interested to know, particularly with your YouTube channel that you do with your husband, Robert Fripp, and also your live shows - have you noticed that people are bringing maybe their sons and daughters along? Or younger people are coming along instead of just people who lived through that era?

TOYAH: Absolutely, very much. My audience age is very, very mixed. There's less eighty year olds because they don't live as long. But I remember this show where there was an eighty year old lady standing right by the speaker. I said "are you going to be okay there?" Because that's really loud, but she had a lovely time

At the front there's lots of very young people. I think some of them are trans, a lot are definitely gay. Very young, between 18 and 20 and then they start to get around 30 upwards. A lot in their 60's, because I'm going to be 68 this year. I like it. It's a really nice mix. It's a very friendly mix HOLLY: Yes, and I imagine a very accepting audience of everybody who's in it, particularly with the message of your music as well

TOYAH: Oh, within an audience there's no judgment whatsoever. I'm totally accepting

HOLLY: Touching on the younger generation and social media - you have a fantastic social media presence and the videos you're doing. There's stories, there's covers, there's showing your bunny rabbit. There's also just a real eye opening world into the world of Toyah and Robert Fripp. It's fantastic TOYAH: Well, we're two very, very straight vanilla human beings - until you put a camera in front of us HOLLY: Yeah, that's not the vibe I get at all. Vanilla! Wow!

TOYAH: We're not into sadomasochism. We're not into plural sex (Holly laughs) We are really vanilla. But what we do on our videos is try and say “what are you calling normal?" Nothing is normal. What you see you may think is normal, but is what you see the only reality?

We're also trying to say OK, we're pensioners, but it doesn't mean you disappear and it doesn't mean you don't have the same rebellion you had when you bought your Rolling Stones albums. We're questioning what reality is all the time and that's gone down really well

HOLLY: Absolutely yeah, for sure. It's holding on to an amazing legacy that you've already got, of amazing songs that both you and Robert have done together and separately as well. I saw an interview with an actor from "Stranger Things" called Finn Wolfhard. I don't know if you watch "Stranger Things". I know you quite like horror things. He was asked, "what are your four top favorite films?" and the first film he said was “Quadrophenia”

TOYAH:Yay!

HOLLY: And I thought, yes, there she is. There's Toyah. He's in his early 20's and he wasn't around when "Quadrophenia" was out. I just thought this is incredible. This is somebody who wasn't there, and yet it's one of his favorite all time films TOYAH: "Quadrophenia" is big in LA

HOLLY: It's huge!

TOYAH: It's huge. It still has conventions and it is big around the world. It is that kind of cult film that's really a smash hit

HOLLY: Absolutely. Did you realise how much of a legacy that film and how much of a cult following that was going to have?

TOYAH: When we were making it we knew it was good. We knew the cast was good. We knew the director, Franc Roddam, was great. We knew The Who were wonderful. We knew but when it came out it was critically not well received. But over the years it's grown and grown and grown by audience strength and audience demand. The thing with critics and criticism - I've never found it accurate. I've never, sadly, in my case, found it truthful

I've had reviews where we knew the reviewer wasn't in the room. But the wonderful thing about social media is we now can expose the people that do that. With “Quadrophenia”, with your example of the actor from “Stranger Things” - he's discovered the film and he loves it and that's all that matters

HOLLY: It's extremely cool. So I suppose, going back to your music, similarly - did you take note of what critics were saying or did you very much feel like "this is what I'm doing and this is how I am"?

TOYAH: I do react very much to criticism. Therefore, I don't always read it because my reaction is personal. When a critic writes something, they're not thinking about the person. They're thinking about the time they feel they wasted being there. So I don't generally read the criticism. My team are very good at sending the good reviews to me (laughs) HOLLY: (laughs) “Look at this!”

TOYAH: “Look at this!” You really can do it. You really are good.” It's very interesting. The most important critics to me are my audience

HOLLY: They're so positive on social media. All of those comments on those YouTube videos, all those views you're getting every week on your YouTube channel. This isn't, by no means, a small thing. You're getting 50,000 - 100,000 plus views on these weekend videos. You've got a real following

TOYAH: It's fabulous. But in hindsight, I never saw myself as a very small woman that is slightly muscular, slightly bulky and has short legs and a lisp. I never saw myself that way. I went into an industry that wants their women to be of a certain height, a certain weight with great legs. "Oh, if they can sing, if they can write -  well, that's a novelty. It's even better. "

I never saw myself as that because punk rock didn't lump me with that. But within the industry that I love, which is the music and film industry, it has been slightly problematic and I'm now shrinking inches per year (Holly laughs) I think how am I going to walk on that stage and have physical confidence? You've just got to face it  

HOLLY: The final thing to say to wrap everything up is the energy - where you get your energy from when you're on stage? Every time I talk to people and I say "I'm interviewing Toyah" the first thing they say is "I want to be Toyah's best friend". And the second thing they always say is "where on earth does she get this energy from? Because she is just a real firecracker when she's on the stage"

TOYAH: There's something so magical about what I call "the church of being on stage". When you've got a group of people together that are focused on the same thing they create a very unique and special energy. You see it in arenas. That energy, I really feel it. It feeds me. I can't go on stage and not have that energy. It's there

Also, I have a very wonderful secret that almost got me arrested the first time I played the Isle of Wight Festival in 2022. I said to someone "I've just got to have my green tea. It's like speed." They literally thought I was taking speed. I had this slight reaction to green tea that for two hours I could run a marathon. I remember the police followed us from the Isle of Wight Festival to the ferry and they're going to pull us over. They think I'm carrying some drugs and they waited for us to get on the ferry and left. This is green tea. It's tea leaves!

HOLLY: It's just green tea. That's the answer. Oh, Toyah, this has been an absolute delight. Thank you so so much for coming on the show

TOYAH: Well, thank you, Holly. It's been really great to touch base with you