#tiny fractures

[music]

JOHN SNYDER: I was digging parts out of the garbage at my old job and I built my first pedal with that. And a light bulb went off. I was ok at writing songs, and I was terrible at making pedals, but when you can make your own it’s a very liberating thing.

MIKE MOSCHETTO: There’s whole creative realm outside of arranging tones and pitches over time. And get this, sometimes people pay for it! I’m Mike Moschetto, and this is Sellin’ Out.

[music: “I’m a casino that pays nothing when you win / Please put your money in”]

MIKE: You are listening to Sellin’ Out, a podcast about music, and money, and the mystery that has plagued promoters and artists from time immemorial: if there are 150 people who clicked ‘Going’ or ‘Interested’ on this Facebook event, where the hell is everybody?

I’m Mike Moschetto, and my guest today is John Snyder, a musician and PhD candidate, and I guess I would say an aspiring mad scientist if he isn’t one already/ He’s the founder of and considerable brains behind Electronic Audio Experiments, which is a, dare I say, bougie guitar effects pedal company known for innovative design that go way beyond your run-of-the-mill overdrive tones. This is starting to sound like an ad so I’ll just say that we talked about the degree of success that he’s had in the brief time since he started making pedals professionally and how his time spent recording and touring in post-hardcore bands contributed to that rise in an increasingly competitive field. We also went into more detail about several of his musical endeavors which you’ll hear, starting with the genesis of his band native Wildlife. So here’s my conversation with John. Enjoy!

[music: “what’s left I only have to guess / no more feelings no more songs / the best has come and gone / come and gone”]

JOHN: I had a lot of, a lot of fits and starts when I was in high school and college. I had been doing my ambient thing since I was in, gosh like a sophomore in high school, and uh, so then people were like, oh you’re like the pedal guy! So, you know I got sucked into bands before I even knew what I was doing with stuff. But I had, I had a metalcore band, and you know, there were some riffs, but there was nothing else of substance. And then, uh you know like I tried to start things here, there were some other friends, none of it really shook out. Native Wildlife was like, ok, me and four other people are gonna start a band. We’re gonna play music, we’re going to record in a studio, we’re going to attempt to tour, we’re going to attempt to have a vehicle in which all of our things are at the same time. Um, all these were revolutionary concepts at the time. We were really feeling the La Dispute ‘The Wave’ zeitgeist.

MIKE: Oh that was, that was an era.

JOHN: That was an era. Um, you know like, I think you talked about this podcast before about how certain genres are sort of en vogue in DIY and then just gone. And post-hardcore is that genre. [laughs]

MIKE: I think it dies with you guys, honestly.

JOHN: We, we killed it.

MIKE: Yeah, nice going. I think, well so I think that the way that you guys conducted yourselves is probably pretty common to a lot of the people who are listening. Right, so you’re a college band, so like your formation and your peak like active period is primarily while you’re an undergrad. You’re maybe not all at the same school, but the academic calendar kind of dominates the way that you do things, it’s like the Sword of Damocles hanging over you.

JOHN: Yeah. Winter break, record; spring break, tour; summer break, tour.

MIKE: Exactly.

JOHN: Hibernate, rinse, repeat.

MIKE: Yeah. So I mean, go a little more into detail about the balance of that, like how you guys, especially where you’re living out of state to everybody else.

JOHN: Yeah, so at our peak we had three members in Boston and two in Connecticut. Um, or I guess at our peak number of Boston members. And then eventually it shifted so that I was the only one in Boston. But I also had a car, was fairly mobile, you know, and I was also at that point the only one who was still in school. So actually being on the academic calendar made me more free than everybody else. Especially, you know, our drummer Nick, for the longest time, was working a union manufacturing job, so he, and he was working third shift, so we were like on polar opposite schedules. And there were times even when I was living in Connecticut where we couldn’t rehearse at the same time. The logistics were always all over the place. It was always, you know, we were always only looking one or two months out, except when we were writing a record in which case it was, we would have these binges of writing and rehearing and then we wouldn’t see each other for three months and then we would, you know, it was weird.

MIKE: But you also have ways that you made your college experience kind of play into it, like feed off of each other, right? Like practice space shows-

JOHN: Yep, yep.

MIKE: -those little under, I mean now that the place has totally been overhauled, right?

JOHN: Yeah, bootleg showed that must not be named somewhere on BU’s premises. They happened. Um...

MIKE: As Boston University employees we’ll probably cut this section. [laughs]

JOHN: [laughs] Yup! Redacted.

MIKE: Paywall.

JOHN: We, we had those shows at BU Central, which you know, despite it being a resoundingly like not Punk TM place, uh, had a nice energy to it, had good sound, and it felt nice to say that you could book shows on your home turf which really was meaningful to us especially at the time. And uh, I always really believe in if you have a platform just like pulling whoever you can onto that platform in the way of friends. And so it was like well obviously we have to book Aviator on these shows, obviously we have to book Cerce on these shows, obviously, you know, just it felt, it, you know who else are we gonna put on there? It was, you know, it felt natural and fun and it was just a cool experiment to do.

MIKE: So, this is not something I had planned to ask, but how does the post-college, well actually you’re not really post-college though, you’re kinda still in the, you’re still a student in many ways.

JOHN: Mmm, post, post-college in the way that purgatory is post-life.

MIKE: Hah!

JOHN: The, uh you know, like grad school um, if you’re in a master’s degree then you basically have to be a monk and just devote all your energy to your, you know to a year’s worth of really intensive course work and everything and then you’re, all of a sudden you’re spit out back into industry or whatever. With a PhD it’s a, you know it’s a marathon, because you have to be grinding the whole time, you’re not a student in that you’re not classes all the time, I finished all my classes in about a two year span. And you’re also not an employee in that there’s no HR department to be like hey I would like to take a vacation now please!

MIKE: Yeah, I guess, I guess what I’m thinking of is like, are you, you’re not paying loans, you’re still kind of on deferment because-

JOHN: Yup, the loans are on deferment and that’s the only way my life works right now.

MIKE: Now you grew up learning violin.

JOHN: Yes.

MIKE: And if you’re anything like me, it took you a long time, ‘cause I played flute in my school band, um, not ashamed, uh, but it took you a long time to kind of realize the investment that your parents made like financing the instrument itself-

JOHN: Yeah.

MIKE: -and lessons and then the transportation to and from rehearsals, and concerts and all that. So, were your parents of a musical background? Or...

JOHN: Um, my mom did Suzuki piano lessons when she was young, but my dad didn’t play any instruments. He just uh, his dad, my Papa, worked for Magnavox, and so they always had the late great uh, you know, receivers and you know, like they ended up with a lot of-

MIKE: This is new information to me.

JOHN: Yeah, he-

MIKE: Makes a lot of sense.

JOHN: -so, yeah, he was an electrical engineer, he worked, this is my grandfather, my dad’s side, um, he worked at the, like the Philips-Magnavox plant in Greeneville, Tennessee making TV tubes.

MIKE: Wow.

JOHN: And uh, ironically, I did not really get into anything vacuum tube-related until after he passed away but there’s a very fascinating legacy there. But long story short, my dad and his brothers would just blast AC/DC records on you know, whatever state-of-the-art Magnavox hifi system was, and they were blowing speakers constantly, and then his dad would get them at the employee discount. Um, so my dad really like music of all kinds, my parents were very adamant about having music be always on. It was, you know, just such a, a crazy smattering of stuff from classic rock to folk music to show tunes and classical music, and um. So my brother and I, my brother is uh, a little over a year younger than me, started music lessons at the same time, he was doing piano, I was doing violin. And uh, we were just steeped in it. I started at age six. And it was just, uh, you know, Suzuki method is great. For the people who don’t know, you basically learn by ear before you learn how to read music, and so uh, you’re forced to repeat things, and you can internalize a melody by hearing it and then playing it back. It’s great for developing memory and pitch and things like that.

MIKE: I didn’t know there was a name for that.

JOHN: It’s cool.

MIKE: That’s kind of just how I, that’s how I kind of process it. I, I can read music, not very well, I can read tablature but I’m much more of like a by ear player.

JOHN: Mmhmm.

MIKE: That’s cool. Um, now how old are you when you start down the left-hand path, we’ll call it, of rock’n’roll guitar?

JOHN: [laughs] Oh man, the left-hand path. Um, so-

MIKE: All its excesses and...

JOHN: So, we got my brother a guitar for his 13th birthday? I think? And uh, he played it for like a summer and then kind of, it fell out of favor, so I started noodling around on it. My fantasy was to tune it into violin tuning so that I could just immediately port over, and I was turning the high E string up and it snapped on me and, uh, that was clearly, I wanted it to be, um, well gosh no it wasn’t the E string. I wanted the, uh, anyway, I was trying to tune to violin tuning, it was a catastrophic failure.

MIKE: [laugh]

JOHN: And uh, but in, but eventually, I was like alright, let’s just try to do these basic chord shapes that everyone, you know, tries to do.

MIKE: From the book.

JOHN: Yeah, and uh, I was never happy with how the guitar sounded, even from like the very beginning. There was this little Ibanez, you know, practice amp. And I remember going to Daddy’s Junky Music, long live Daddy’s Junky Music-

MIKE: Long fuckin’ live, dude.

JOHN: And uh, saying, “I really, I feel like I need a clean distortion.” and the guy was like what are you talking about? And I was like well, you know, I pointed like whatever pop punk record du jour I was, you know, listening to. I was listening to half classical music and half pop punk. I was a very, very confused 13, 14-year-old. And I was just saying like well yeah, like now I say, I can say ok these guys were probably using like a JCM 8, 900 in the studio. It’s a basic, high-gain tone. But it was articulate enough that you could chug on power chords and make everyone happy. And I couldn’t even do that with this little, crappy 10-watt amp. And so, but that just sent me on a path of like obsessively, critically listening to my guitar sounds all the time, even before I could really play the instrument.

MIKE: I mean you and I have obviously done our time in the uh, the mines of like, gear Tumblrs, right?

JOHN: Yeah, yup yup.

MIKE: Uh, AmpWorship and all that sort of stuff, which I was only trying to be as smart and cool as you. But uh, is your interest in electronics and tinkering kind of nascent at this point? Or does that come after, or maybe even before?

JOHN: Well I, so I grew up playing Legos all the time, so that gave me the like, you know obsessive, sort of like building things nature. You know, when I was a little kid, I would wake up at six in the morning and go down into my super cold basement and build spaceships and then wake my parents up with them. And uh, so there was always that drive to just make stuff. Um, and that took on different forms. Honestly when I was in school, I was so busy doing homework that a lot of my like hobbies and passions really dwindled. Um, homework is not good for teenagers. Um...

MIKE: Hear, hear.

JOHN: It certainly wasn’t good for me. And uh, but you know I was so busy doing it and all, all I cared about was getting into a college that I just sort of forgot about it. But I was also, had this like sort of heady oh I want to be a philosopher of physics thing for a bit. And then when I got back into electronics by way of trying to repair broken pedals, I was like wait a second! No, I’m actually an engineer at heart. That’s, that is what I’m supposed to do.

And so I built my first pedal in high school, um, it was a ZVEX Super Hard On clone, it’s a clean booster. And uh, I got parts out of the trash at this internship that I had. I was working for this electronics company in Connecticut called PQ Controls, and they make industrial joysticks, like for, you know, like personnel lifts and construction equipment. I would take parts out of the trash can, and out of like, we had junk drawers just full of stuff from decades of engineers tinkering and then throwing things away. Like if you breadboard, you pull the parts out and you don’t want to sort them out again, so they, they’re trash.

MIKE: And how do you know what all this stuff is already?

JOHN: There was a lot of Googling, and just like looking up things, and sort of experimenting, and also asking people. Saying like hey I wanna build this thing, do you know id we could find like uh, this kind of, you know, pot? Like do you guys have any knobs in like the back? And they would help, ‘cause like, the engineers were just very curious as to what I was up to. This is when I was like 17, I think.

MIKE: I’m just thinking of somebody listening to this, like divorced of context and being like, what kind of pot?

JOHN: [laugh]

MIKE: Sorry.

JOHN: Oh, yeah, potentiometer for the informed I guess.

MIKE: I’m barely keeping up, so I’m just thinking of...

JOHN: Anyway long story short, I was digging parts out of the garbage at this old job and I built my first pedal with that. And a light bulb went off, in a huge way. Like I had been, you know, using pedals at that point, but when you can make your own, it’s a very liberating thing. Um, I was ok at writing songs, and I was terrible at making pedals, but I was like, you know like wow, there’s like the whole new axis of the creative process that I’m tapping into now. And that’s what it was really, and so many people can share this very same story. They built their first kit or they mod something, or you know, they break something enough to fix it, like there’s all sorts of ways that comes out. And then you realize that a guitar is a electronic device and a musical instrument, and both go together.

MIKE: An electric guitar.

JOHN: An electric guitar.

[music:]

MIKE: Maybe it’s because we both went to our friends’ last show-slash-reunion, but I do want to talk a little bit about the end of Native Wildlife. Because, you know, at one point the original vocalist of your band left. And that’s like a death knell for almost any band, and the fact that you guys could not only survive that but thrive, is kind of a testament to your ability to find, like, once you lose your literal voice, being able to retain your figurative voice is huge. Right? So, at one point you find out your drummer Nick, who you mentioned before, is going to be moving across the country. And obviously this is not meant as a knock on Nicky, but, there are far more bands that have lost a drummer and pressed on.

JOHN: Yes.

MIKE: Than lost a vocalist and done the same. So, just take me through the decision making that made you want to just call it a day rather than find someone else.

JOHN: Nick was the band dad, but to just say, and obviously that’s a very, very important thing for any band, you gotta have your band mom or your band dad. Um, but, you know, it wasn’t just band dad, it was, you know, there was a lot of informing the artistic direction, there was a lot of just, you know, positive energy, motivation. He was the hardest working member of that band for sure. Um, you know there were times when, you know, comparatively Adam and I are phoning in our parts and Nick is just playing his heart out all the time. And uh, you know like, and, no decision was made without any of us, so when it came time for him to leave, and for such a good reason, you know he really, you know, Connecticut can be kind of a boring and soul sucking place, especially-

MIKE: Nooo.

JOHN: [laughs] especially in the sort of center of the state, it’s a cultural void. Very beautiful, but it’s a cultural void. And uh, you know, he wanted to go start his life over. And if you have to scrap a band to do that, like, he it’s worth it. And for the record, he’s a dad now, he’s killin’ it.

MIKE: He went from band dad to real dad.

JOHN: He went from band dad to real dad, and nobody is surprised. Um, so yeah, like, I completely support that decision that he made, and we had enough time to make a new record, and uh, it was everything we wanted to do at the time and it felt very good and natural.

MIKE: Yeah, I guess I just bring it up because I think for me, like, the takeaway from the other night, from the Cerce/I Kill Giants reunion thing is that when you kind of make that decision to end something, it feels like oh, I can just start, there’s always a song to write, there’s always a band to start.

JOHN: Yeah.

MIKE: But I feel like, uh, momentum, especially creating momentum but also sustaining it, that’s harder than it seems like on the other side of that equation.

JOHN: Yeah.

MIKE: Now from recording you and your bands on multiple occasions, I could always, it’s clear to everybody that you had a more sophisticated understanding than everyone in the room of how gear, like amps, guitars, pedals, all work under the hood.

JOHN: Mmhmm.

MIKE: Moreso, maybe even especially more so than me. Um, now is there a specific moment in your kind of tinkering around that you come across, was it like a specific design, or, some instance that made you say hey I could monetize this.

JOHN: Um, I think it was the idea that, uh, you know like when I, when I transitioned into making my own designs it was because I had a very convoluted setup to achieve a certain sound. The, uh, final Native Wildlife record, and then the split we did before that, I was running basically the same signal chain which had come from a tour that we did prior to that first recording. So I had the same static setup for a while, but it took a lot of components to achieve that, and I was never quite happy with how it sounded live. And so there was a part of me that said ok I have to dive into the nuts and bolts of this to get, uh, a one-size , you know or just one thing that does what all these things do in terms of sort of you know pre-processing a guitar, and then doing a thing to it, and then making that sound good with an amp. Um, just in the broadest terms.

And so, but when I made that, people would say, oh well I really like how you sounded on your record, like, can I, can I try this? Or even when I was talking about making it, people said, well I always trust your judgement on guitar tone, so I would love to buy whatever you make. Which was a scary thing because that person had not heard what I was making. But it did mean that for the first fifteen pedals that I built, I did a batch of fifteen of my Longsword overdrive, and uh, people bought it. Almost sight unseen. I didn’t have the money to make a demo. Um, I basically sold off half of my pedals to buy the parts to make those, and then that seed money turned into the company.

MIKE: Wow.

JOHN: Which is crazy to think of now. Um, but it was just, yeah it was those fifteen pedals. I didn’t, I didn’t pay myself a dime from those. It was more like, can I make fifteen of the same thing and have fifteen people want them? And then the answer was, I guess so.

MIKE: Like initial capital, basically.

JOHN: Yeah, yeah, and so it ended up working up, which is, it’s nuts, but...

MIKE: I’ll say. And, I mean, when we talk about the market for guitar gear, there’s, there are so many forces at work right? There’s, there’s uh like an explosion of boutique and specialty builders kind of at the same time anyway, seemingly overnight anyway, which could help or hurt, I suppose. There’s, you know, internet knowledge bases and communities where you kind of bounce ideas off each other. And then on the flip side, right, there’s people who buy limited run things just to flip them-

JOHN: Yeah.

MIKE: -there's obvious plagiarism.

JOHN: Yep.

MIKE: How do you not only navigate those factors but also stand out from like John Q. TubeScreamer? Right? Like, every unoriginal here’s a Klon clone, right?

JOHN: Mmhmm. I think, so, I actually, I like to use this analogy a lot. Which is that, you know, a pedal to me, is an artistic, it’s a form of artistic output, a design. And you can play in a cover band, you know, cover bands are fine, they make a lot of money. And in the same way you can take a design which has been sort of subsumed into the public domain for 40 years and you can make that. That’s fine, whatever. Or, you can say alright I’m gonna write my own song and I’m gonna, you know, learn the chords, I’m gonna try to write a solo, I don’t know, whatever. And then you make something new. But you are still playing, you know, the same notes and borrowing the same chords that everyone else is playing. It’s the meta-structure, the narrative, it’s the personal connection.

You know, like there are so many bands and genres that I like, but I’m more inclined to listen to the ones of people I know. Just in the same way I’m more inclined to buy something, like a pedal from somebody I know. And I think that’s something that helped me early on, was having a connection with people, with musicians I knew both locally and as like a broader touring network, to sort of get things out there and just have a personal connection and say I trust this person’s artistic sensibility, and I’m going to support their work.

MIKE: This is something that I’ve experienced a lot too. Like when I was touring a lot with Aviator, that kind of gave me, sort of a platform but also I don’t think I would have a lot of the recording repertoire that I do had I not been out there getting in front of people’s faces, and also doing the work on my own end. And I think Native Wildlife, and to some extent Tiny Fractures and Ember Wreath, kind of also put you on the map in that way.

JOHN: Yeah, I think that’s that’s definitely accurate because I would, you know I talk a lot about gear, you know it’s a, both as a passion but also as a social anxiety anchor. [laughs] To talk about stuff I’m super into. And so that kind of like fueled the reputation a little bit, just being a huge friggin’ nerd. Um, and uh but yeah also caring a lot about how studio recordings sound. I love listening to how songs are made and what they’re made with and learning about the process. And also the process is as important as the actual product to me as well. Um, so it’s only a natural extension of, you know, making a record is like, oh well I made the stuff that’s used to make the record! That just makes it more personally significant, more in the moment, um, you know just more personal, I guess.

MIKE: Yeah, and the thing that I actually always appreciated about Native Wildlife, you guys took your time, more than other bands that I worked with, especially bands of the same, you know, if you have five songs? We’ll do two days, but you guys would book three. Or if you had two songs you’d book a whole weekend, and we’d really spend a lot of time dialing in sound.

JOHN: Mmhmm.

MIKE: And that has done nothing but favors for you, and for me.

JOHN: Yeah, definitely.

MIKE: Win-win. Love it.

JOHN: It’s the right way to go, I think. If you could afford it.

[music]

MIKE: When does Electronic Audio Experiments actually take shape?

JOHN: So, I think in the fall of 2014, I was starting my PhD, um, we were writing what would become the Native Wildlife, it was going to be a full-length originally and then we scaled it back, we were writing a Tiny Fractures EP, um, and then, uh I was also tinkering with pedals and building one-offs for friends, kind of just to get my chops up. I was like I don’t even know how to wire stuff, I’m just gonna, you know, just dive head first in. I was building things and selling them at cost to people. I was living with my parents at the time, well, up until September 2014, so I just, I had a lot of time on my hands. I was doing all these things in parallel. And then, once, my goal was to have a prototype ready for those recordings. Which, if you remember, I’d brought that box that I’d Sharpied up. That was the first Longsword.

MIKE: Yes.

JOHN: Um, and so that was used on the Tiny Fractures record and to a lesser extent on the Native Wildlife record. And so it was at that point, then it was the summer of 2015, which was when I did the first, uh, the first batch, so at that point Native Wildlife was sort of winding down. I think we played our farewell show in May of 2015, and it was in July to August of 2015 that the first batch of Longswords came out. So I sort of, once I had the mental bandwidth to get into pedals, then it was like alright, I’m just going all in and we’ll see what happens. And that, that mental bandwidth has been occupied with pedals rather than bands ever since. [laughs]

MIKE: And, obviously this a show about music and the economy of its seedy underbelly, and, so as such, it’s kind of a first for me to have someone on the show who has created jobs, in a way? So, from that humble beginnings in summer of 2015, you now have like, kind of a staff-

JOHN: Yeah.

MIKE: -at Electronic Audio Experiments.

JOHN: I have a network of people who help me out, and uh, you know they’re all people with multiple gigs. You know, like my right-hand person is, uh, Zach Weeks from Cerce and Lovechild and a billion other, now in Animal Flag, and... you know, like Zach does a lot of mastering, a lot of mixing. He is an assistant at a major recording studio, and when he’s not doing those things, he helps me build pedals. Which is, which is great, because there’s time to tour, and there’s time to, to do audio jobs. You know, pedal companies are a surprisingly good way to fit into the gig economy as a musician because a lot of the manufacturing work is something that is kind of muscle memory. You already have good hand eye coordination if you can play an instrument, you can learn how to solder in a weekend, and there are a surprisingly number of little pedal companies here and there, and a lot of them need help. And uh, so that’s something where I sort of, I don’t have any one person who can work full time for me, and uh, also, you know, we’re not exactly printing money, so, uh, you know, a full-time employee would be a lot. But having people here and there to help me out. Um, you know, one of my other right-hand people is, uh, Brad, um, from uh, formerly of that band Lunglust, um

MIKE: I forgot about that band.

JOHN: Really great heavy hardcore band from the Boston area.

MIKE: Oh yeah.

JOHN: He was also in The Proselyte, who shredded.

MIKE: I don’t know them, but I do know that I, that Plague Survivors played a show with Lunglust once. And then like we left as soon as we played, and like not that many people were there, so I think they like have it out for me.

JOHN: Uh-oh.

MIKE: But! I’m sure, I’m sure Brad’s above all that, I’m sure I’m in good standing with the community. [laugh]

JOHN: [laugh]

MIKE: So, sorry I cut you off.

JOHN: Um, but yeah, the uh, you know so that’s like a, that’s a thing that’s really great because obviously if a job is music-centered there’s a lot of sympathy for touring, and whatever. And uh, it also just broadens that network, it feels more community-based. Um, you know there are so many things, if you don't mind me going on a tangent here about-

MIKE: Please.

JOHN: the, the musical instrument industry, that are bucking trends of consumer electronics and capitalism at large. In the way that, uh, there’s still a demand for products that are handmade, products that are built locally, but without the sort of like, jingoistic bent to it, because you know, like art is naturally a local phenomenon in a lot of ways. There’s this sort of idea that, uh, you know like you are, you know like you’re supporting small businesses, like you know, and not entrepreneurs more auteurs, I guess would be a better word to put it, without being too pretentious. Um, you know.

MIKE: No, I, I get behind that definition of it.

JOHN: It’s vertically integrated, right? Like you know the same people are coming up with ideas, and then making them with their hands, which is a really nice notion.

MIKE: You basically have like artisanal creators on, from, not only from the design that you make, but also the vendors that you contract for etching and for enclosure building and even for people who put together PCBs.

JOHN: Yeah.

MIKE: And uh, you know, do the wiring like Brad and Zach.

JOHN: And uh, you know so when you put all that together, and uh, you know it’s not a race to the bottom either, you know you don’t wanna buy the thing, I mean there are people who buy the Wal-Mart stuff, sure, um, and there’s, there’s certainly an argument to be made for working musicians buying affordable gear, um, but it’s also my experience that that’s the stuff that’s gonna break on you when you need it the most.

MIKE: Oh yeah. Quality controls.

JOHN: Yeah.

MIKE: In the shitter.

JOHN: You know, I don’t want to be self-aggrandizing about my music career, I don’t really think I’m coming from a platform where it’s like, oh this veteran of this touring band, has gone and, you know, is now imparting his wisdom. Um, but, I know what it’s like to be on tour. I didn’t tour as much as some of my peers, but, I know enough about things breaking on the road and doing triage with a, you know, a   soldering iron plugged into the AC adaptor of a van, um going down the highway, like, you know like that’s the thing you have to be aware of, is you know all these little details.

MIKE: Yeah, I would never, uh, fault anyone for not having the same kind of touring experience. And, you know, there’s always someone who’s done a little bit more, and had a little bit more boots on the ground than, than you have, right? And, I agree, you have done your time, you know what it’s like, you know, I think It’s just about knowing the calculus involved, like, I haven’t done that much. Like, the way that I’ve described it before, probably multiple time son this show alone, is like whenever I would go on tour, we would go on tour for like two weeks here, wait for three months, go on another like four or five weeks. And then, you know, where there’s people who will just turn right around and go back out on another tour with a different band or a different lineup or something like that.

JOHN: Yeah. And at that point, you know like, you’ve learned your lessons about longevity of equipment and vans, and things like that. But, I guess I haven’t experienced the mental anguish of repeated touring [laughs]

MIKE: I mean I don’t think-

JOHN: Nor do I have the wherewithal.

MIKE: And neither do I, I don’t think. I mean, I, not to out myself as unqualified but like I’m sitting here doing this instead of being out there doing that, right? So like how much can I possibly know. And like I’m sure that just in the two years since I stopped really touring kind of a lot, I’m sure a lot has changed. I’m sure the dynamics are different and I’m sure that the returns from everybody are different, and especially like, both return on investment in a literal sense and also fulfilment-wise.

JOHN: Mmhmm, mmhmm.

MIKE: I’m sure that it’s just a very different equation as time goes on, ‘cause I’ve, other people have kind of opined that maybe the band thing is going the way of the dinosaur a little bit?

JOHN: Yeah, I think, you know, um, if pedal sales are an indicator then you know people are still very interested in making music. But, uh...

MIKE: I think, I think that’s such a, not only a luxury thing, if I may say that, but like a niche item that, that core audiences is never gonna dwindle that much.

JOHN: Yeah, I mean I kind of wonder, like how many of my things are going to, you know, um like 35-year-olds who work at tech jobs and have a lot of money and are just playing in their bedroom. Um, and how many are going to, you know like a 19-year-old who’s gonna write the next great like emo record, you know?

MIKE: Yeah, and I think that you do something smart and you send out your prototypes with, uh, touring groups as like a stress test, and also like a what do you like, what don’t you like, like focus group kind of thing.

JOHN: Well if it doesn’t work on the road, then like it doesn’t really have as much value to me, um, because you know like live music is what keeps everything going.

MIKE: It’s funny to hear you say that too, because you put so much emphasis on the studio, and having this artful curation of sound, right?

JOHN: Mmhmm.

MIKE: Like, we haven’t even talked about Ember Wreath at all, which is like, talk about an artful curation of sound and texture.

JOHN: Oh my God, I remember being call, oh, somebody called me a “soyboy curating soundscapes.” Um, that was an insult lobbied to me via YouTube comment.

MIKE: That’s a badge of honor to somebody like me.

JOHN: Yeah, I guess so. But they, the “curated soundscapes” was the exact phrase they used. [laughs]

MIKE: And you’re like, you understand that’s a good thing, that’s what I’m going for.

JOHN: Yep [laughs]

MIKE: I mean, I don’t know what your opinion on soy is, I don’t know what I would do without it.

JOHN: Completely fine.

MIKE: Totally fine. Yeah, there you go! Nice, middle of the road answer. Um, and so, give me the decision-making that led to, well, I can’t do this alone, was it just balancing it against the PhD?

JOHN: Yeah, it’s, well first it was like, man I really don’t have time to be in a band, so let me see if I can have someone help me out so I can go to band practice. And then the demand just eclipsed that still, so um, but gosh, you know, working in a lab is a very demanding thing.

MIKE: And what, and yeah, just give me like a bird's eye view of your job, just so it can sound smart.

JOHN: So I make devices which are for, uh-

MIKE: Oh actually, I should clarify, you make devices as one job, but your primary job, your PhD work-

JOHN: Yeah, so my, in my PhD program, my thesis is about making a new kind of optical device. And so, day in and day out I am working on those devices in a clean room, and then when they’re ready to test I have this laser-based setup for measuring what they do. Um, and clean room work is very grueling, you have to suit up in, you know, bunny suit, gloves, the hair net, the beard net, the whole shebang. Um, and it’s uh, a lot of communal equipment so you work very odd hours cause you’re fitting into a schedule with a dozen other people all trying to make stuff. Um, you know, it’s very, it’s very lonely work, it’s very loud work, there’s equipment thrumming in your ears all day. Um, and so sometimes coming home and soldering is just way too exhausting. Um, not to mention trying to maintain a social life and a partner and a dog, you know, there’s, working two jobs is a brutal thing.

MIKE: You got science up the ass going on here.

JOHN: [laughs]

MIKE: Um, now, obviously you work in a space at least with the pedal thing, and with the amps that you’ve designed, and guitar work, whatever else you do. You work in a space that’s almost reverently analog.

JOHN: Mmhmm.

MIKE: Right? But,you can almost forgive people for going to more digital, audio solutions, right? Like, because, I don’t know, as cash flow from, you know, music sales continues to trend downward you want to keep production costs low, so maybe there’s a plugin for everything. Like I don’t wanna buzz market more than I have to, but an example right now is like, the Dark Glass B7K, like the plugin version of it.

JOHN: Yep, yep. I mean it’s amazing that that exists.

MIKE: It is.

JOHN: I have a, a very deep reverence for DSP, the only reason I haven’t gotten into it is because I do enough coding at my day job that I don’t want to mix, uh work and pleasure, but. It is one of those things I would love to dive into-

MIKE: So, so you could see a future where there’s like, uh, an AAX or VST version like the modelFET for example?

JOHN: Uh, maybe, if someone, someone smarter than me can figure out how to code that up. But also, I really like the idea of digital pedals in general because there are so many possibilities that you can’t do with a physical, you know, circuit. Once you’re in the coding realm everything becomes abstract and you can do sounds that people haven’t even dreamed of yet. I’m not really into the emulation side, I have a deep respect for it because the math is very complicated, but I think digital sounds are where there’s sort of new frontiers of creation, and I love it for that. It’s something I would love to dive into.

MIKE: You also don’t have to worry about stock, either.

JOHN: Yes.

MIKE: Inventory.

JOHN: Mmhmm. Or even, also, if, you know, from a manufacturing perspective, you can make one platform and then program it in different ways, and um, have that sort of flexibility, which is also really cool.

MIKE: Anything in the hopper for you? Like what’s...

JOHn: Oof, talk to me in a year.

MIKE: That’s probably when this’ll come out, knowing me.

JOHN: [laughs]

[music]