#tboc

I don’t know whether the majority of audience is international or American, and I only really know the response of a handful of people from countries outside the US.

I’m from one of the countries Daryl and Carol went to in Europe, and I found all of it very offensive to be honest. It got worse every season, but even, for example, Daryl’s (and Antonio’s) suspenders outfit felt offensive. That’s what Americans think Europeans wear? What century do they think we’re in? To wear that for the whole run of the all three to four seasons. And dressing other characters in similar historical looking clothes.

We have plenty of apocalypse and zombie tv shows and movies made in our own countries, and none of them are anything like that. Did nobody on that show watch any? I’m getting distracted, but really I wanted to ask you about the American response. To me, the spinoff represented the worst of how we feel Americans see us. And so I’m wondering whether the American audience or other people in the business see the issue with the cultural representation too?

I think Norman and/or the other stooges claimed that ‘Europeans would fall back on what they know in the event of a zombie apocalypse,’ as if all Europeans are experts in medieval warfare and virgin sacrifice. It’s obviously wildly offensive to other peoples that these four white men think that rest of the world is somehow backwards for not being American. A lot of the time, travel to Europe is marketed with this idea of “old world charm,” which is very far from how the vast majority of Europeans live, but the creative team behind DD seems to have bought into that concept wholesale.

Zabel didn’t even watch the flagship show, so we can’t expect him to have watched anything that would require subtitles for him to understand and I’d be surprised if the EPs realize that, with global streaming platforms, non-US programming is something Americans watch too. Ben Davis, the guy in charge of programming at the studio, should definitely be looking at international comps, but I doubt that he is, considering the slate at AMC. The international market is important to any show, even at the big traditional networks, because that’s how you keep earning, through licensing.

I can’t speak for what a whole country thinks about a whole continent, obviously. The US is physically large, much bigger than Europe[*] and not everyone here has the same exposure to foreign cultures, but there’s a difference in thinking cobble stoned streets are quaint (audience) and exoticizing a setting (DD’s EPs). It’s something that’s unfortunately usually done to other places, like Asia and South/Central American countries in action adventures, but we do see the occasional spy/cop show have car chases down narrow one-way streets in the historical center of European cities.

So, there's a tendency to transfer culturally American narratives to locations where they don’t fit in order to give the domestic audience a ‘fresh’ setting. For the most part, it doesn't work. Americans see that for the cheap gimmick it is: to disguise your old tired plot that's been done to death.

It’s far more likely for showrunners, directors and studio execs to notice the troubling cultural representation in DD because it’s more common to have visited France and Spain (or the UK) than Morocco or India. (Both require very long flights from the US.) It’s painfully obvious from how Ash (in TBOC) was written as a generic white guy that Zabel has no understanding of Indian cultures either. That said, I don’t know anyone else who produces TV who's watched DD. It's not a show on anyone’s radar.

This comment is so interesting to me bc I only joined fandom twitter just over a year ago. I’ve watched daryl and carol since 2012, and I became invested enough to join the fandom in 2024. I became invested because I noticed when the show started doing something different, when I started to feel - for the first time ever in this genre - that what I valued was being taken seriously by the show. And that was huge to me.

It’s quite likely that these moments that Norman Reedus thinks were written “for twitter” were some of the ones that hooked me emotionally. So much so that I joined the fandom, started creating and sharing my own content, engaging in public discussions, and spending my money in the AMC store.

It seems to me that writing scenes that will resonate with your audience is exactly how you nurture and even grow your audience. Not sure why that’s a bad thing. And I’m grateful for the twitter users who posted about what mattered to them, because it mattered to me too. I just didn’t have a voice that could be heard yet.

And if you’re thinking, “well, it’s a bad thing bc that’s consumerism at the cost of good art,” maybe we shouldn’t assume that the audience is less intelligent, that their perspective is somehow lesser. Maybe some of those people on twitter have thoughtful insights or good ideas, or maybe they have different backgrounds and could offer valuable perspectives.

A showrunner who pays attention to that isn’t pandering. They’re creating art that genuinely connects with people. And that connection leads to the type of engagement that benefits both creators and audiences. And if you don’t care about that, what are you making it for?

And on that note, here’s Melissa McBride:

My initial reaction to this scene was just that it was cringe. Just more bad dialogue. More tropey trickery. More inconsistency in the Daryl and Carol dynamic. It kinda came out of nowhere, which adds to the feeling that this was a metafictional statement of intent direct from the creative team (and I use the word creative extremely loosely). And look, I do think there's validity to that POV. They have been clear about their intentions with this relationship. They have been clear in their deprioritisation of Carol in Daryl's narrative (and vice versa). And they have been clear, as the OG show was, in their contempt for shippers as viewers. And we're going to be sensitive to that, right? Cos as shippers, we’re used to being treated with contempt by both the people telling our stories and the fellow fans watching them alongside us. 

What I don't really understand is fellow fans piling on, laughing at Carylers’ expense. Partially because I don't really understand reading this moment straight. For one thing, why would you assume that these characters are telling the truth? It's called character complexity. It's called levels, people. But more importantly, I never understand people seeing the overt denial of feelings as a confirmation of a covert lack of feelings. Those are not the same thing. SO many of my ships have those moments where the characters deny or (over)explain or insist: Nooooo, we're not a couple, we’re partners, we’re just friends, best friends, we love each other but not that way, nothing's ever happened, nothing’s ever going to happen, it's not like that, we have no deeper romantic/sexual feelings for each other, cross my heart, hope to die, no further questions at this time. I find it so strange that antis use this as the ultimate proof AGAINST a ship rather than recognising it as the shippy trope that it absolutely is. It's SO Beatrice and Benedick coded. Masking deeper feelings with denial has a long literary history and, in TV history, it enables writers who want to endlessly defer/play both sides to confirm AND deny the existence of feelings, narratives and viewers that are inconvenient to them. Ultimately, if I had to come down on one side, I'd say this scene is more shippy than not. It does more to confirm Caryl than deny it. What infects it though, taking this moment out of the story, is how loud the bts voices have been on this matter, and every other matter, how managed and calculated the press and discourse has been. (Note: I don’t say well, it hasn’t been managed well). The obnoxious, overbearing presence of Zabel & Co makes this moment feel unbalanced, in much the same way that the show itself is unbalanced. There are too many intrusive elements; too much of what is happening onscreen is overshadowed by what’s gone on behind the scenes. And that, as I’ve said previously, is something we should not see. We shouldn’t see their fingerprints on these characters and their dynamic as clearly as we do. 

What I will say to anyone watching this scene in isolation or just following the subsequent discourse is that Daryl's reaction here is typical of his character right now. I don't know who this moody bitch is or why she's been in such a bad mood all season long. But Daryl reacts in this scene the way he reacts to literally everything and everyone rn. He's no longer a gruff giant with a heart of gold. He’s just a generic, stoic, monosyllabic hero type. Blah. Both he and Carol have been flattened out as characters. Their motivations are one-dimensional and they keep having the same conversation over and over again. Carol: We should help. Daryl: Daryl no help. Daryl fix boat. Daryl go home. Daryl is manly man. Daryl have no feelings. Carol shut up. Carol annoy Daryl. Daryl walk away now. Fuck. Shit! (The swearing is also weirdly intrusive. I’m a fan of an eff bomb but it feels…misplaced and OTT…?). Who knows what happened to the sweetheart of the Cherokee Rose or the emotionally intelligent man he grew into. Despite having far more screen time and production priority, Daryl doesn’t fare as well in this flattening out process as Carol does. Maybe because MMB is simply a superior actor. Maybe because NR is resting on his admittedly sexy and charismatic laurels. Or maybe just because of choices he has made. A while back, when trying to work out what was off about the Caryl dynamic, I hypothesised that NR has just changed how he plays Daryl. And I think he has. And I think that change is backed by the writers and producers. 

For dedicated viewers (I’m new but count myself as dedicated), it makes moments like this confusing. Because what are we watching here? Are we watching Norman Reedus be petulant about the idea that he wasn't enough of a draw? That people wanted Carol? That (some) viewers wanted a romance between him and his BFF after being teased and mocked for over a decade? (How very dare they). OR are we seeing Daryl’s hurt and anger at Carol come out, a la "Find Me” and "Diverged", cos he's been in love with her, devoted to her for years and nothing's ever happened despite him putting himself out there in the bravest way he knows how? OR are we just watching a giant man baby throw a tantrum over everything, refusing help, denying feelings, blocking connections, isolating himself, playing the antagonist in what's supposed to be his own narrative? And why exactly? Because he met a creepy nun and a precocious kid? Is that where this is all meant to be coming from? No idea. All I know is that Valentina was already my fave of the Spanish characters (tho possibly just because she reminds me of s10 Carol) and this scene just made her more so. All I know is that Carol deserves better than an eternally sullen bff and that Daryl is making Antonio look like a much better option in comparison. 

So there's one thing I want to say about this show's approach to creating romantic/sexual tension (yes, I know, I have A LOT of thoughts). Skipping over the blatant shipbaitery aspect of this upcoming moment, baring skin is the most obvious, most cliche, most cishet male way to bring sex into a scene between two characters. But unlike some characters who shall remain nameless, Carol has never had to rely on nudity to get Daryl's attention. She's never had to bare skin to be sexy. She's never had to take off her clothes in order to show up as an attractive woman and sexual being. Carol is sexy. She is attractive. She doesn't need french couture either. Even in tattered clothes and covered in walker guts, she's gorgeous. In fact, that's arguably her best look.

Melissa McBride has one of those faces that the camera just eats up and falls in love with and doesn't want to stray away from (similar to Gillian Anderson in that regard). She has this mesmerising prettiness that becomes more than skin-deep, it becomes beauty because it is backed by emotional depth, psychological complexity and strength of character. Whether a scene like this will work for Daryl and Carol (in the way that it didn't for Daryl and the creepy nun) will depend on the circumstances that accompany it. So far, these writers haven't been able to really capture the magic of the Daryl and Carol dynamic. The chemistry between Norman Reedus and Melissa McBride is still there and it shines through in moments. But these moments are isolated, almost independent of any supportive scaffolding. The dialogue isn't quite true to their voices. Their (his) emotional reactions aren't clear, consistent or transparent to the audience. Their circumstances impede rather than support the continuing evolution of this relationship. If we think of the Terminus hug or their reunion at Carol's cabin or the haircut scene in "Stradivarius", part of what made these moments work so beautifully was the circumstances around them, everything that had gone before, the scaffolding of the story, the emotional spaces the characters were individually inhabiting. Likewise, part of what made their final scenes together in s11, including "It's a date" and "I love you" feel hollow, was the lack of contextual elements, story scaffolding or character work. They came out of nowhere and went absolutely nowhere.

1. Isabelle is DEAD. She ain't coming back. She's gone gone. Daryl feeling bad about it and mourning his lost love doesn't go anywhere narratively. If the point is him realising he WAS in love with her, that's the end of the road. It can't lead to anything. What's the payoff for that story? He spends all season moping about losing Isabelle, his one true love, and then... What? He's emotionally in tune enough to realise he loved her? To tell other people he loved her? And then what? He vows to never love again? Or he's like YOLO, I'm totally cool loving any stranger I meet now? What's the end goal here? What's the payoff? It doesn't make sense. The narrative is dead like Isabelle. Even Laurent has been kicked off-screen for a blank slate. So again, WHAT IS THE POINT?

2. Norman doesn't seem to think Daryl was in love with Isabelle and has been very resistant to talking about the kiss outside of complaining about mosquitoes in his mouth. Knowing that he must have known at that point that Isabelle would die soon, it makes sense that he didn't get invested and didn't think she was Daryl's one true love or anything. But then what was the point? Well, according to him:

So the entire storyline with Isabelle was just "dépaysant" - "a nice change of scenery that makes you look at things a different way." She was never written to be a serious love interest for Daryl. So what's the point? Why is Daryl sent on a journey to "make him look at things a different way", specifically with a potential lover?

From the rest of the season, and what the cast/crew have said about s3 (and what we've seen in clips/trailers), it sounds like Daryl IS realising he's tired of spending his whole life fighting and is looking for something else (and we keep hearing the theme of s3 is love). But again, why? Why with this random love interest never built to last? There's only 2 seasons left in this show. Are they going to try and make him fall for another total stranger in Europe? That doesn't explain his reaction to Isabelle's kiss (which was apparently just an experiment), her love confession, and when Carol tells him he loved her. Either he WAS in love with Isabelle (which again, won't go anywhere) or he's thinking about something (or someone) else.

The "something" might very well be his realisation that his old way of life isn't what he wants anymore. But why tie this to a romance? That could have just been accomplished with Laurent and wanting to raise the kid in peace and quiet. What's with him zoning out after leaving the married couple's place? It doesn't make sense to me to add any of this unless he's thinking about settling down with someone specific (which could have been Isabelle, but again, what's the point of that narrative now?).

So the "someone" else: how many options are there? Leah is dead. Daryl didn't seem terribly broken up over it either and didn't hesitate on that trigger, so I doubt it's anything to do with her. Connie is the only other option that's been even vaguely hinted at, and while she's been mentioned in DD - barely. And their goodbye at the end of the flagship show was beyond lacklustre if we're supposed to believe that Daryl left the community and has been pining over her ever since. I also doubt she's gonna join the cast in the last 2 seasons of DD, so the relationship would have no time to build until they get back to the US. So again, what's the point? The narrative can't really go anywhere unless Connie somehow manages to wash up in Spain.