#tapatalk

On the positive side all those things mean:

It’s crew is tight-nit and very passionate + stick up for each other and their projects. It’s basically a giant colab. Whether they were preexisting fans/friends of Viv, the people working on it got to work on something they liked and with people they liked.

The animation community is super pumped and excited for them be they fans of the animators or just people who like cartoons and monsters and stuff. They’re positively skeptical and in on the hype cause they want to see more fluid adult animation and more indie projects take off (also 2D)!

It’s fandom LOVES the characters, concept, and story. They are more invested in what the characters could be rather than what they actually are, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing; to love something based on the concepts presented and use it to make AUs, hypotheticals and what not. Cringe all you want at the Onceler fandom (you can) but it is impressive to make all that material from so little!

They’re both edgy and insensitive based on their subject matter alone. And yet, the creators and fans DO intend for the show to be a net-positive: there IS supposed to a be representational aspect to it’s design and it’s audience. Brandon Rogers, the modern John Waters, is a pure shock-humor artist; an example of the sincere but not TOO serious risque nature these shows should have, and BOTH attract a pretty happy and excitable LGBTQ fanbase who hate bigotry.

The creators directly talking with fans means there’s again a sense of togetherness to the whole production. That the creators tell people to ship what they want BUT NOT TO BULLY is really cool + important.

As an aside, they can only say so much and Viv is at this point not 100% of Hazbin or Helluva’s creation. It’s other people speaking for or with it now. Neither pilot is a singular idea and musing of one person anymore, they are stand alone products and they are not immune from critique or favoritism.

Buuuuuuut, there’s a flipside to these things as well:

Beyond NDAs (as an aside, a lot of productions have these I don’t think it’s amoral that Viv had this) the crew is tight. When they hear how a site that they’ve heard through the grabevine hosted the guy who sent Viv rape porn*, even if the critique is from a user who hates that guy, THEY AREN’T GONNA HEAR THEM OUT. And they shouldn’t. They are tired and don’t want to be involved, at best (or want to move on from past drama) and biased towards Viv, at worst. They stick out for each other in the business and also who are you gonna stan if you were in their shoes? A person you don’t know on a forum you’ve seen post creepy shit OR your friend who paid you, promos you, talks to you and you like to work with?

Ask yourself honestly what you would do if someone said:

“hey I’m from [4chan/Kiwi, ED, Tapatalk, Reddit, ect]. I’m sorry for what happened but just so you know-”

I so get the crew just straight up blocking on sight. I don’t CONDONE it, but in a postGamerGate world I understand it.

AND when it comes to accusations made against the VAs, a producer, or one of the artists, and ESPECIALLY the creator - people are gonna just handwave it away convinced, it’s just whining or has alterier motives + again, friends stick together and choose sides...like Brock Baker’s :B

It’s popular so it’s gonna get love and hate. I know critics are not gonna like to hear the later, but it is true. It feels cathartic to dunk on a property when fans are crazy and you feel it’s overrated/bad. People feel good dunking on this mishandled, problematic clusterfugg cause they know not as many people are watching and unironically liking, say, Alfred Alfer ----- (please don’t look that or Emily Youcis up. Here’s the tvtropes page. Do not look beyond this point PLEASE)

Likewise, the clout surrounding the show is biased and detracted form being too mean as well. Everyone can tell there’s a kind of toxic mess under the covers but no one wants to deep dive or prod the details of something people are working on and liking so much, especially not when the loudest detractors are asshats like P.K. Russel.

A lot of merch has been sold and produced WELL BEFORE the rest of the shows or the finalized series/designs have been laid out. If nothing comes of either show it will be bad having all this merch hyping something that doesn’t exist. If it does but is so radically different than the vision in Viv’s and fan’s heads (these are both PILOTS, I’ll remind you) it’s gonna disappoint. I just know it.

People were writing Hazbin fanfics and AUs before the pilot was dropped and have made sequels to both before we have even a clear picture of what the ending is gonna be. People are in love and writing for a franchise they don’t know. They know the idea of it and the version of it in their head, but they don’t really know it.

The fandom can not take criticism. This is bad. Everyone is a critic and inside every critic is a nerdooo ~ ((critics do have fandoms and everyone will like something problematic for reasons)) Fans want to criticize but they’re scared of being ostracized from the fandom and kicked off of forums/servers, which has happened to two underage fans already. **

The fandom feels entitled to their ideas and to the creators’ attention. If it were any other fandom it is sooper cool that creators allow people to ship as they please, but not one that’s currently still in development and whose finalized characters haven’t been figured out. The babies have been sent into the battle field at only a few months old alongside veteran ship/canon/entitled cartoon fandoms like Steven Universe and Rick and Morty. It’s like the scene from mother! where the crowd dismembers and eats the baby.

Viv and has a serious influence on these people so even when her and a bunch of fans/artists are just gabbing about stupid memes on twitter, this invites a slew of onlookers to attack these people***. Despite the influence you can have or say to stop this behavior, it’s waaaay harder to put a stop to it than just saying “hey guys be nice” (Anyone else remember the inner-drama of Brony fandom? Like chuds would even take the word of the AskMolestiaMod to heart when their one goal was to take down the dreaded Essjaydoublewes that threatened their rape jokes).

Fans also have no boundaries. Sea also; Lincar Rox.

Being a netpositive doesn’t mean everything you say or do is devoid of critique. If you make vulgar/shocking adult content it will have fans and it will have detractors regardless of the positive intent. As I’ve said earlier, the problem with Viv’s works isn’t really the content but the context and the presentation. You can say Angel Dust is an inspiring character all you want. To some people that’s absolutely true but that does NOT absolve the fact that the it’s a cis woman writing and glamorizing an abused crossdressing gay man. People are gonna be offended and the creator needs tougher skin about this be it satire, parody, or drama.

*back when they were fixated on Zoophobia, there was a guy on Bad Webcomics Wiki/Tapatalk for the comic who posted art of Viv’s decapitated head getting raped by Angel Dust as a “joke”. Oh! and he also took the complaints the wiki had and made Viv and ED page. The rest of the forum was not happy but yeah that happened. The forum itself is the same as any reddit thread and NOT a hate site, but yeah um Viv has every right to quit after that, sorry.

The evidence is linked here in this google doc, which is why I linked it. (tbh I sympathize with the author but I don’t think it’s their place to say when Viv should have let the world known about the harassment porn )

**the underage fans who were bullied/blocked/demonized by creators are frootrollup1, for doing redesigned fan art, and StarVader from the Tapatalk/BWW forums, who was targeted and blamed by fans for Lincar’s shit. I’m not linking them for fear of their safety.

***The meme and twitter thread that went off the rails is one you’ll have to scroll down a bit through @gamergirluprising‘s post to see.

Okay that’s all.