#sleeper9

"I definitely DONT think Paul ever thought about it while they were together. […] While they were in their relationship I think Paul only thought of it as like.. natural?? This is just how we naturally are. We legally own a piece of each other and so it’s natural I take this much interest and care."

This! I also think it wouldn't be technically wrong to call the way they were natural. Personally, I think it kind of was. They spent an insane amount of time together, went through the one-way-door of fame together, worked on art together – which IS intimate in my opinion – plus there was that whole mother dying bond. So, I sort of get it, if Paul looked at his atypically close relationship to John and didn't feel like it was out of the ordinary in that way. Also great point re:"we legally own a piece of each other". I think it's kind of fascinating the way their names were legally tied to each other in a way that echoes real marriages. It plays a huge part in Paul's "claim" on John during the post-1980 Widow Wars.

"I think in the 80s directly after John died Paul went on a journey to figure out what happened in their relationship and I think he found things out that really shook him. I think he maybe realized there was a romantic element to their relationship (especially from johns pov) but then I also think he kinda rejected it after realizing it brought up so much guilt within him."

I definitely think this is possible, though I'm very on the fence about whether it happened. Either way, the amount of guilt that realization could bring about seems insurmountable to me. If I found out something like that it would be soul-crushing to be honest.

"I think he has slowly realized over time John wasn’t such a great partner to him but then he hates thinking about that so he vacillates wildly between love and anger and grief. I think he went through a period in the 80s were he genuinely thought “maybe I should’ve just … “ but can’t quite let himself think about it. I think he thinks I could’ve loved him enough to make him stay I wish I had but it was too scary he wanted too much from me."

I think this is a great point, though I feel a lot of that anger must have already come to the forefront when the breakup happened. What does seem to have happened since is Paul trying to understand John's mental health problems, in his own, kind of problematic way. I think this is the place his whole bringing up John's family situation shtick originates from: a misguided attempt to contextualize John's less savoury behaviour. And of course, the fact that John was deeply troubled, did struggle immensely with his own self-image, did have major abandonment issues does in the end make the guilt of not being able to help him more (by "loving him enough" or by getting him professional help that wasn't really available at the time) at odds with the justified anger Paul felt at the hurt John caused him. I think this is a seriously under-explored piece of Paul's post-1980 feelings for John, and I get why: Paul downplays it massively because it's a dark road.

There's also an inherent trade-off between Paul finally internalizing that John did in fact genuinely care about him and him subsequently realizing that perhaps John wanted more. It's deeply sad however you choose to spin it :(

And lastly, yeah, I've wondered if, if Paul knew John had harboured romantic feelings for him, would he think "well... I could have done that". Not because he necessarily genuinely desired it, but because it's so hard to imagine post-hoc anyways, and he just wants something that will fix it, and in the world of hypotheticals, anything is better than the reality we're living in.

"I think now as an old man he thinks I love him that much now it doesn’t scare me anymore I could’ve hugged him and kissed him easily I wish I hadn’t been so uptight (and I don’t mean that romantically)."

Yeah… Yeah. Again, this makes perfect sense to me. It honestly makes me kind of sad to see how tactile he is with Ringo these days. Like he'll give him a cheek kiss as a greeting and I just mourn the carefree intimacy That Could Have Been, y'know, that clearly he regrets not having with John.

"I think John was the first love of his life and I think he’s realized it now (like now now) but it took him 20/30 years post him dying to kinda realize that."

I do kind of wonder if him realizing that after the fact might also mean that it may in fact be somewhat revisionist of him to think of it that way. And that isn't to say that John didn't mean an immense amount to him at the time, but I guess the idea of a "love of one's life" is somewhat constructed if that makes sense. Like part of someone being the love of your life is that you think of them that way. So if he only began thinking of it that way after John died, is that the same as if he had realized it while they were together? I think this is an interesting question. In a way, Paul continues to shape the reality of his relationship to John to this day – which is not the same as lying or delusion in my opinion! It's simply that as he ages the lens with which he looks back inevitably keeps changing with him.

I think Jane forced him to question his relationship with John many times and mostly he dodged it but there definitely came a time where it scared him that people could think of them as queer which is kinda like step one in to their fractured relationship.

Could you elaborate on this? I agree that Jane probably called his relationship to John into question, but I've never seen anything indicating directly that Paul was worried people thought him and John were in a romantic relationship at the time (clearly, the rumours that cropped up after the fact have bothered him). I know there's that Apple Scruff report where just, after telling the groupies who hung around Cavendish that he would be marrying Linda soon and receiving blank stares in response, he exploded like "what??? you think I'm some queer who'll never get married???" but that particular story isn't directly linked to his relation to John. Is there another story I've missed?

That being said, I think Paul felt self-conscious about how John took it, thinking back to Paul being afraid dying George would swat him away for holding his hand. And we know John used to regularly disparage Paul for being "sissy" in various ways.

I think johns sense of sex was wildly distorted so any deep feeling was entangled with sex and certainly intimacy was entangled with sex […] so I think John in particular struggled with sexual desire and intimacy desire being intermixed.

Harrrrd agree on this. I think the Julia stuff really indicates this and it's just the general vibe I get from the way he talked about relationships as an all-or-nothing thing.

(that’s probably also an era thing so Paul falls in to that as well) […] And I have to say I do think Paul’s relationship with John wildly effected his sexuality and sense of sex especially since they met so young I think John had a huge impact on how Paul relates to sex so to say it’s completely detached from their relationship? Err I can’t quite dismiss it! But I think it mostly comes across in Paul’s relationships with women than in with John.

Also agree with this a lot actually! Both that the way they both put marriage on a pedestal is definitely a historical thing and it's true that makes the atypicalness of their friendship more ""questionable"" in that sense; it's one of the reasons I've never wholly dismissed Full Reciprocated McLennon™, because this aspect is somewhat better accounted for by that version of events. And yes, it's undeniable they experienced sex together, if not necessarily with each other.

(But Fiona! Confirmed circlejerks??? – Again, this is a fair point, but I do think this falls into the ambiguous of category of "could be gay – could not be" where it just kind of depends how the participants think of it plus how much they're actively thinking about everyone else involved and if so, in what way. If you personally consider it gay no matter what, then congrats, John and Paul had sex, but I don't know that Paul agrees with you and if he doesn't I don't think that would necessarily constitute denial.)

I just look at the dynamics Between Paul and Francie and Jane and Heather in particular and I think there’s echoes of John here.

Could you maybe elaborate on this? I find myself in partial agreement but I'm also not sure how much of that is just because Paul has an MO for operating with people in general. Also for the John/Heather Mills parallels, please refer to my Friend Hannah (@royaltyisshe64) and her pipeline theory lol. (Literally bless my tagging system for helping me track this down again)