#shieldra founders

What If...?, Marvel’s Instagram, and Marvel Studios' The Marvel Cinematic Universe: An Official Timeline book gave the ‘official’ date of Steve’s serum as June 22, 1943.

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This means: 

Steve was enlisted June 14th 1943,

shipped out to Camp Lehigh June 15th 1943,

was there for just a week (til June 21st 1943),

Had a conversation with Erskine about why he was chosen on evening of June 21st.

and was back in Brooklyn and receiving serum on June 22nd 1943.

Poor lad barely had any time to pack and unpack! 😲

Sidenote:

The first date shown in the movie is March 1942:

When Red Skull acquired the Tesseract. 

This implies (but does not conclusively prove) that Dr Erskine must have been captured by the Allies before March 1942, because: 

when he has his conversation with Steve, he merely said Red Skull believed “that there is a great power hidden in the earth, left here by the gods.” IE. he wasn’t aware that Red Skull had successfully seized that power (the Tesseract).

Stark is flummoxed by Tesseract-related tech when he sees it, which he  surely wouldn’t be if Erskine had known about Red Skull having the Tesseract because Erskine could’ve just told him.

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Anyway, back to the present and Steve was already in the local newspapers by Wednesday, 23rd June 1943:

Anyway, he and Peggy only spoke for 1-2 days during that time: June 22nd, the day he received serum, and (what was probably) June 23rd, the day after.

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IMO it seems like it’s just the day after because: 

everyone who was at the blown-up Brooklyn base is there 👆 (wherever ‘there’ is) as if no time has passed at all...

...but we know that time must have passed, because Senator Brandt shows Steve a paper dated the 23rd [see above.] 👆 So enough time has passed for the newspapers to hear about Steve, for a journalist to write about it, print it, and for the Senator to get a hold of a copy. 

Enough time has passed for the SSR to get the saboteur’s Hydra sub out of the water at the Brooklyn Navy Yard in order for Howard Stark to be flummoxed by it, as he is in this scene. (And he is still in the pit with it; he hasn’t had long enough to look at it already. Ergo, not much time has passed.) 

You could say that it’s a later date, and Brandt just happens to have a newspaper from the 23rd. Except...

...Phillips mentions having talked to the president that morning... which makes more sense as something he would do immediately after the whole Hydra-saboteur bomb kerfuffle, not later. That’s not a phone call he could put off for days. That’s a call you make straight away. 

Although that doesn’t automatically mean that that-morning’s phone call is the first or only phone call Phillips has made to the President, since the Hydra-saboteur-kerfuffle, meaning this could be a date later than June 23rd. 

But the fact that:

everyone who was at the bomb site is still there,

Howard is still in the pit looking at the Hydra sub and admitting he’s clueless about it, as if that is new information he’s announcing,

they’re taking Steve’s blood, also not something to delay on,

and Brandt is asking basic questions about Hydra. If more than a day had passed, he would already know the answers to these questions, even if he had been distracted by the Press.

Suggesting it is very soon after. 

The lack of delay in Phillips’s actions also supports this idea. Earlier on in the movie he moaned to Erskine about having had to talk to senators multiple times before he could get the ball rolling on Project Rebirth. But now he’s cheerful and decisive. Which to me suggests he’s had one decisive phone call with the President, where they exchanged all the information they needed, and that’s it. (He doesn’t say “I spoke to the President again this morning,” for example.) 

Brandt asks Phillips what he’s going to do about Hydra. Phillips smirks and answers that the SSR is being re-tasked to go after them. As if he anticipated the question and got the President to sign off on that just prior; close enough to this moment that Phillips is only acting on those orders just now. 

"This morning" implies that this scene is taking place later on in the day of June 23rd 1943; after the morning, so that Phillips isn’t saying he called the president just now, for example. 

There’s strong sunlight coming in from the window behind Steve 👆, so I’d say we can place this scene at afternoon, June 23rd.

And we can infer that it isn’t evening yet, because Phillips refers to flying out “tonight,” as if if the night of June 23rd has not yet arrived.

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(Another maddening possibility: it’s all happening on the same day, a day that Phillips just happened to have spoken to the President on the phone in the morning already, but either the prop makers got the date wrong on the newspaper or the official Marvel instagram got the date of Steve’s serum wrong. 🤦‍♀️)

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So, timeline: 

June 22nd, 1943: serum, bomb/saboteur, Erskine’s death.

(possibly but not definitively) June 23rd, 1943: morning, newspapers reporting on Steve are printed (Senator Brandt sees them), the Hydra sub is shipped to dry dock for Howard to look at, and the President tells Phillips via the phone that the SSR is being retasked “as of today.” 

afternoon, Steve has his blood drawn, Phillips relays the President’s orders to him, Brandt, Peggy and Stark. Steve objects. Brandt recruits Steve for the USO. 

night, Phillips, Peggy and Howard fly out. 

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Unless it’s all the same day, in which case the events go:

June 22nd or 23rd: 

morning, Phillips talks to the President who officially re-tasks the SSR, Steve gets serum, blown up, Erskine killed.

afternoon, the Hydra sub put in dry dock for Howard to examine, newspapers rushed out an edition about Steve, Brandt recruited Steve for the USO using said paper.

night, Peggy, Phillips and Howard flew out to London.

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So Peggy was flown out to London that night, being (probably but not conclusively) the night of either June 22nd or June 23rd, 1943.

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And then Steve was on tour with the USO for 4 months (from July 1943).

Probably starting mid/late July / early August, to give them enough time to find 20+ chorus girls, create and fit costumes, build sets, book venues, choreograph and plan a show, and do some rehearsals... though apparently not enough for Steve to have learned his lines. 🤦‍♀️ 

During this period, as the USO shows grow ever more elaborate (up to 40 showgirls, bigger sets, a fake Hitler, a military band, and harley davidson motorcycles) Steve also films multiple propaganda reels, signs autographs, takes photos with the public (and Senator Brandt), appears in his own comics, sneaks into the cinema to watch himself on screen, and travels to Buffalo, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Chicago, and New York! 😵

Senator Brandt’s smooth patter in recruiting Steve for the USO, how he acts during it, and the fact that there was a cameraman there to take photos of Steve just before he got serum, to me suggests that Brandt was planning to do this USO show with whoever the serum worked on. 

So it’s possible a lot of the show logistics and planning were already underway before Steve was even chosen for serum. That would mean the USO show kicked off much sooner after Steve got serum (which might account for why he’s so nervous on stage...)

And it would explain how they were able to cram so much activity into four short months.

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Meanwhile, in October 1943, in Azzano, Italy...

And then Steve goes to Italy, five miles from the front

on the 3rd of November, 1943:

We can see that Steve and Peggy were not in contact in between these times / while he was on USO Tour, because: 

no reference to any such contact is ever shown or implied (and Kevin Feige said Steve was sleeping with someone else while on tour).

Steve looks surprised to see her when she shows up. He hasn’t invited her to come -- which he could, by letter -- and asks her what she’s doing there. 

She’s cagey about why she’s there/what she’s been up to; so she’s not someone who even can carry on a correspondence, given the classified nature of her work. 

If they had somehow been corresponding anyway, she would already have told Steve by now that she can’t talk about her being there/why. So he wouldn’t need to ask.

As well as Steve not knowing basic things about her, she also still doesn’t know basic things about Steve, that a casual correspondent of four months would know by now [see below].

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We know the rescue of the 107 was on the night of November 3rd, 1943. 

Because Phillips cites that date when he’s typing up Steve’s official KIA letter:

The sequence before Steve’s rescue of the 107 also implies that Bucky et al were only captured very recently at Azzano, because:

the rest of the 107 are still there (haven’t been deployed elsewhere),

wounded are still being brought in, 

Col. Phillips is still engaged in writing up condolence letters about the lost soldiers when Steve barges into his tent.

(Why is the head of the SSR in Italy, writing condolence letters about the 107 when he specifically said he and his agents were flying out to London, where his HQ is? Here’s a clue from wikipedia: “Alsos personnel followed close behind the front lines in Italy, France, and Germany, occasionally crossing into enemy-held territory to secure valuable resources before they could be destroyed or scientists escape or fall into rival hands.”

However, those personnel would not include the head honcho (Phillips), the entire Army’s number one weapons contractor (Stark), or a desk jockey whose opinion is neither sought nor valued (Peggy). 

And the rest of the movie shows them back in London (and therefore not featuring in field footage of the Commandos), while Steve & Co. destroy Hydra weapons factories (not sweep them for intell.) 

And they stay in London, until the entire army hits a very important base at the very end of the movie. And even then, Stark isn’t shown attending!

So maybe he was just in Italy for the chorus girls...? 🤷‍♀️

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Steve and the Howlies had to have to covered 35 miles as the crow flies (30 miles behind enemy lines + 5 miles to the Army base), with wounded soldiers, and through what Phillips describes as “some of the most heavily fortified territory in Europe” which was also mountainous. They would’ve had to seek a flat route to get the jeeps through. And this with no resources -- like food, medicine, specialised clothing, etc. 

Covering 5 miles a day under those extremely difficult and dangerous circumstances, it takes them a week to get back to Camp. 

(Sidenote, I looked up a modern estimate of hikers on the Swiss Alps, and it said they’d traverse a 105 mile trail over 7-10 days. Viz. potentially 10.5 miles a day!)

Making the day of Steve’s return 👆 at least, November 10th, 1943.

Marvel Studios' The Marvel Cinematic Universe: An Official Timeline confirms this:

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Afterwards, it seems they went straight to London. 

(No contact with Peggy in transit is shown or implied).

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Sidenote: although no other locations and no other interaction is shown in November, between the 107 returning and Steve being in London, it seems as if some time has passed. 

And once again, we can tell that because of Senator Brandt and newspapers.

There has been enough time for more than one newspaper (The Daily Mail, and Stars and Stripes), to publish stories about Steve. 👆

For Senator Brandt to announce that he’ll be giving Steve a medal for valour, and for that news to have travelled back to the UK.

And, at the very least, enough time has elapsed since the 10th of November for the Senator to believe that Steve could feasibly travel back to America in time to receive his medal in person. 

(Which he declines to do. LOLOL.)

So, say: 

11th: newspapers report (Steve & Co travelling back to London). 

12th: news reaches America / Brandt decides / announces the medal.

13th: Brandt expecting Steve to fly from Europe to America (which would’ve taken over 17 hours, then.) Doesn’t necessarily have to be the very next day, but based on past behaviour Brandt expects action to be taken the very same day as the press reporting on Steve! So...

14th: for the actual medal ceremony? (so that Steve isn’t travelling for 17 hours and then immediately appearing in public) Which seems like it’s happening simultaneously with Steve being in London; I don’t think he’d delay on relating his intell about Hydra.

(And that last day would also account for how the news has travelled back to the UK from the US in order to appear in The Daily Mail.)

We know that this day Steve is in London is supposed to be the day he’s receiving his medal, in person, because of this CATFA deleted scene: 

So IMO we’re looking at this date being 14th November, 1943 at a very strict minimum. 

NB: All this pre-supposes that it takes 4 days to move the Howlies from the Continent back to London, which it feasibly might if they had Stark and his plane, still in Italy. Stark’s deleted-scene surprise at seeing Steve in London suggests either he was not the pilot / his was not the plane responsible for flying Steve to London, or that he was / his was the plane but he expected Steve to move straight on back to the US. We know the SSR had at least one plane in the US Army base in Italy, because someone was flying multiple reconnaissance flights, trying to spot the 107 -- the last of which returned Nov 10th.

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In London, Steve and Peggy are shown talking on 2 separate days, total:

1) In the London HQ, relaying the intell about Hydra weapons-parts factories, gathered from the Krausberg weapons-parts factory and from Bucky, when Steve tells Phillips he has got his own team together. 

And in the pub, on the evening of that same night, when Steve goes to Assemble the Howling Commandos for the first time. 

(I’m saying it’s the same night as that day^ because no time passing between these conversations is implied or stated, not via montage or any other means. It’s a straight cut, and Steve is wearing the same clothes. Also: assembling his team is not something Steve could delay on, after already telling his CO he  had one. In fact it’s kinda nuts Steve didn’t think to do this before telling Phillips he had a team already. What would he have done if they’d said no?? 😂)

2) in the London HQ, the morning of the day after (8am) when Peggy shoots at him.

(Won’t dignify either of those scenes with triggery screencaps!)

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So Steve and the Howlies are officially a team from let’s say 14th November, 1943. 

(We know there must’ve been a bit of a time delay before the Howlies were deployed, to give Stark time to build Steve the version of the Cap suit he requested as well as supplying him with those Harley Davidsons WLA ‘Liberators.’ That Cap suit is the only thing Steve is shown fighting Hydra in, thereafter, meaning the Howlies did in fact wait until it was ready before deploying (they didn’t, for example, send Steve out in something else at first and then  get the suit shipped out later on. That isn’t shown.) 

Since Bucky was the one who suggested him keeping ‘the outfit’ I’ll bet he had some input on that suit. 🤔

So depending on how long you think that would take, could be the Howlies weren’t out on the Continent kickin’ ass ‘til December ‘43 or January '44. 

But despite this delay, no contact with Peggy is shown or implied in the interim.)

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For the next 15 months & 15 days there is also no direct contact shown between Steve and Peggy, while Steve is on the continent and she is in London.

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At first glance it looks like we can deduce roughly the dates of when Bucky died and Steve returned to London.

Because after capturing him Phillips tells Zola he sent a telegram about him*

*a prop which is not shown directly on screen

...a prop dated (the morning of) February 3rd, 1945: 

Soon followed by a tight 24-hour turnaround for the Howlies to go and attack the Valkyrie base in Austria, which we know from this 👇  piece of dialogue between Col. Phillips and Gabe Jones: 

But.

We don’t know: 

1) that the date on the telegram is accurate. This prop is not directly shown in the movie. And, in the scene, Phillips hints at this telegram being intercepted by Hydra and this being bad news for Zola (because it says he is working for SSR. The Foreshadowing is INSANE!)

So Phillips might have lied on that telegram -- backdated it to make it look to Schmidt like Zola had betrayed him and been working for the SSR since before the Howlies ‘captured’ him. Making the day of his interrogation... later than the Feb 3rd on the telegram.

2) that Zola Therefore told Phillips ‘you have 24 hours’ on February 3rd.  Since the telegram date could be false. 

Even if it wasn’t, Zola could’ve said this to Phillips on a subsequent day. He could’ve just told Phillips when the date Red Skull was planning to do something was, and not necessarily 24 hours before that date.

Meaning we can’t tell by the telegram what date the HQ briefing about the Valkyrie mission, and therefore what date the Valkyrie mission. 

However, Agents of Shield 2.01: Shadows...

and Marvel Studios' The Marvel Cinematic Universe: An Official Timeline tie in book, put Steve’s only possible death date as: 

Thursday, the 1st of March, 1945. 

(AOS’s Morita and Dum-dum capture Werner Reinhardt on 2nd of March, 1945, and Reinhardt remarks that Red Skull is dead. 

Given that Steve ‘died’ on the same day in March, and it’s already known about by the 2nd, that leaves the 1st of March as physically the only March date, before that point, at which the Valkyrie mission could possibly have taken place.)

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And we know (from CATWS canon) that Steve’s death was reported (as a disappearance) on 

Monday, 5th March, 1945: 

So I think we can definitively state that MCU intends for Steve to have ‘died’ on Thursday, 1st March, 1945. 😥

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And the KGB opened a file on Bucky on Friday the 23rd of March, 1945.

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It is not categorically stated that the mission where Bucky ‘died’ happened immediately before these late-February scenes in London.👆 

He could, theoretically, have died in late 1944, as his exhibit in the Smithsonian in CATWS claims:

However, that exhibit makes multiple other errors... 

(Such as: listing two different dates of birth on the same display, saying Bucky enlisted shortly after Pearl Harbour (nothing in CATFA shows this and his dog-tag number suggests he was drafted), saying he shipped out to Italy and was captured ‘that fall’ of 1942, when that year was definitely shown as 1943, and the Marvel Timeline tie-in book also shows Azzano as happening in October ‘43, etc.) 

...So I think we can safely rule this out 👆 as a prop-maker’s mistake! 

Plus, Steve’s grief in the pub feels very raw, very immediate, which to me suggest a very-recent bereavement, not something he’s had a couple weeks or months to weep over already. Steve’s a pretty stoic guy. So we know Bucky ‘died’ near to March 1st/end of February 1945. 

The only canon suggestion of time passing between Bucky’s ‘death’ and the pub scene is Steve having already had a chance to get back to London and write a report about it, in order to mention said report to Peggy and feasibly expect her to have read it. 

If we follow the previous observations / logic in this meta, then Steve reports things ASAP and actions are expected to be taken ASAP.  

As a soldier with a CO to answer to, that report about Bucky/Zola is not something Steve could delay on delivering. If Steve drinking in the pub is afternoon/evening, say this was the day he delivered his report (probably in the morning). 

Well that’s enough time to reasonably expect Peggy to have read the report, and for Steve to be drinking after delivering it, but still be neatly groomed in his immaculate on-duty uniform, having just gone off-duty (not, eg. dressed down as if this is another, later day, a day off). 

On the surface of it, it looks like we can’t say for certain that Steve’s drinking day is the day before Phillips interrogates Zola. Even if it’s framed as if the stoicism he exhibits at the end of that sequence is the signal that he is now galvanised to act ASAP, ie. the very next day, with one scene leading to / causing another...

Bucky’s ‘death’ date might have been any number of days before.  

Except: Zola is a hugely valuable acquisition. 

I don’t think Steve et al would’ve captured and brought Zola back to London, at extraordinary personal cost, only for Phillips to waste days before interrogating Zola. 

I think Phillips would’ve been in to interrogate Zola immediately. 

That to me is the closest to ‘proof’ that Steve is back in London, delivering his report and then drinking in the pub, either on or as close to the day of Zola’s interrogation as physically possible. 

(IMO this can’t all be happening on the same day. I don’t think Steve is the kind of guy to deliver a report in the morning, go off and try to get shit-faced while still on duty / in uniform, and then go back to HQ after drinking for a mission-briefing.  Not under normal circumstances, let alone when the mission (to avenge Bucky! and stop Red Skull!) is so important!  Steve appears to know already that he can’t get drunk... but that doesn’t stop him from trying. I don’t think he’d do that if he knew he was expected back to plan the very-important Bucky-Avenging Mission on the same day. CATFA writers may disagree and say this all happened on the same day, but that idea’s kinda wild to me!)

So when was that interrogation date? 

I think we can deduce that it also must’ve been as-close-as-possible to the Valkyrie mission briefing date. 

The fact that Gabe is asking how long they have means that that intell was fresh information to the Howlies on the HQ mission briefing date (which was 28th of February = 24 hours before 1st March.) 

Now, if Phillips knew about 1st March being significant in advance of 28th February:

it would be incredibly stupid of him to not tell anyone until only 24 hours before.

he would’ve told the Howlies already / Gabe wouldn’t need to ask.

But if Zola only revealed the date of the Valkyrie Mission Day very close to the mission briefing date... that would explain why Phillips didn’t mention it sooner. Another point: A lot of what Phillips says in the mission briefing sounds like a summary and continuation of what we see Zola telling him in the interrogation scene. As if there has been no further interrogation / no more intell to relate since that interrogation, a point in favour of it being the only time he has interrogated Zola (meaning it must be happening on 27th of February).

As in: Phillips went into see Zola as soon as they got him (27th of February) and Zola told him the Valkyrie mission was happening March 1st, and that was their only interaction.

This interrogation scene comes before Steve is shown drinking, alone. (Implying Steve is drinking in the later pm, since it’s ‘dinner’ time for Zola, just before.)

Assuming Phillips’ telegram about Zola is false (which is neater, and it being a lie is mentioned in the scene, and although we have the prop the prop is not directly shown on-screen in the movie).

Sunday, 25th February. Bucky probably 'died?’

Monday, 26th February. Howlies flying back to London, with Zola?? And since Phillips wouldn’t wait days to deal with Zola:

Tuesday, 27th of February. Morning, Steve delivers his report.  Phillips reads the report, and sends a falsely-dated telegram about Zola to Washington via SHAEF HQ. Dinner time, Phillips interrogates Zola, tells him about the telegram, and Zola tells him about 1st March / Valkyrie Day. Steve goes drinking, alone.

Wednesday, 28th February 1945, Valkyrie Mission briefing.

Thursday, 1st March 1945, Valkyrie Mission day.

NB: This pre-supposes that it only takes a day to move from the Continent back to London, which it would if they had a plane like Stark’s ready to pick them up any time. 

They well might, given how important it is to get Zola back to London, and get the Howlies out to take down the Valkyrie base.

If they didn’t have such a plane, of course, it would take them longer. However, nothing in the movie (such as, eg. a travel-montage) does show it taking longer. It seems to imply a very short turnaround.

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Sidenote: 

Steve never does anything Peggy says or does, always does the exact opposite -- which is the moral, heroic, selfless thing -- and also never asks what she thinks he should do. (They also try to create the illusion of Steve following Peggy’s orders, in the denouement, by having her irrelevantly interrupt to remind Steve to do what he was already doing anyway.*)

This is a symptom of poor / misogynist writing, whereby Token ‘Strong Female Character’ Love Interest is relegated to a Sexy Lamp with post-it note stuck to it* + behaving like a generic male bully in a female skin + idiot hetero-norms in writing that make any straight couple automatic foils, who must bicker miserably and be on the opposite sides of every argument in order to generate ‘Chemistry.’ 🙄 

Ergo, Steve never does what Peggy says, because as his foil what she says it always the opposite of what he says. Making what she says, defacto, the [unethical, cowardly, self-serving, tactically unsound] thing to Steve’s [moral, heroic, selfless, also tactically correct] thing.

. (disclaimer: any other aspects of Peggy being unpleasant must be put down to Atwell’s performance choices.) .

Her show erroneously claims that Steve relied heavily upon her for “courage, strategy, and moral guidance." 

Passing over the insulting and demonstrably-untrue suggestion that Steve needed external courage or ethical guidance...

(Metas on why this is untrue, and would actually make the plot impossible if it were true! HERE, HERE, and HERE .👈)

...If what Peggy is saying were true, this would mean Steve is somehow relying upon a person whom he doesn’t even speak to for 467 of the 473 days when strategic input was even relevant to his life. So he must have been clueless the vast majority of his life. 🤦‍♀️

The numbers don’t lie. Steve physically cannot have been relying upon Peggy for anything when they weren’t even in contact. That’s quite literally not physically possible. 🤷‍♀️

This simultaneously puts the lie to the idea of Peggy following the Howlies around Europe to collate intell in the places they hit.

A) because the Howlies aren’t shown sweeping these factories for information. They’re shown reducing them to fiery rubble, which you don’t do if you’re looking for documents. They’re not looking for documents; they’re looking for Zola.

B) even if the Howlies weren’t destroying the factories and were sweeping them for ABC (atomic, biological, chemical) Peggy isn’t the kind of specialist who would even know what to look for.  

She’s an intelligence liaison, not a scientist. Not even a linguist. That’s not her area of expertise at all.

Whereas the Howlies themselves by contrast are surprisingly well-qualified. They’ve worked in a Hydra weapons factory, so they know what’s important. Gabe is a fluent German-speaker. Frenchie knows ordinance. Morita looks like a radio expert / is shown operating captured Hydra tech more than once. Bucky as a sniper can do distance recon. And Steve has a photographic memory. 

So they really don’t need an eighth wheel telling them how to recognise or blow up Hydra factories (how would she even know?) 

That’s already their forte. 

C) even if Peggy was a technical expert somehow better qualified than them (which she isn’t), her opinion is repeatedly denigrated by Phillips who says she was a chancey (ie. ill-qualified) hire. 

He wouldn’t send someone to judge important documents who is ill-qualified to do so and whose opinion doesn’t carry any weight with him. He comes with an inch of firing her in this movie for this very reason. 

D) The only time she’s shown taking part in a mission, it’s actually more of a full blown Army Operation, where even the old man Phillips goes along in person. This is an unusual occurrence, i.e. not something she normally does.

AOS ineptly tries to retcon that she was with the Howlies more often.

(The Agent Carter show undermines this intent, because Dum-Dum is discombobulated by Peggy’s presence on a mission and doesn’t know how to act around her. 

This is showing that it’s not a familiar sensation for him, which it would be if she was an honorary Howlie. Ergo, even when they think they’re showing she was a Howlie, they’re actually showing she wasn’t. 

And this is why she didn’t join Steve on the mission to rescue the 107 -- that’s just not her job.)

But just like I can’t claim that Howard Stark fought alongside the Howlies in person throughout the war, if that is not what is shown, they cannot claim that Peggy did so either. 

Because that is not shown. 

*As mentioned: in the middle of the denouement, when Peggy asks Steve if he was about to do X important thing, and he goes ‘right!’ and carries on...

And later, her interrupting at a crucial point to make it about herself (to make Steve kiss her the same way Lorraine sexually assaulted him earlier on) and then telling him to carry on... 

Peggy telling him to do it is both the classic conditioning behaviour of someone who wants to control another person (by creating a mental association between their commands and the victim’s actions) and/or the behaviour of someone with a delusion of importance. 

They are ineptly trying to create the appearance of Steve doing what Peggy says, because she says so. But Steve is doing what he was already going to do anyway, before she spoke.

Her input is not a deciding factor in what Steve does, nor on the plot. Her net moral/strategic impact on Steve is still zero; and she’s still replaceable with a Sexy Lamp.

So that aforementioned claim that Steve relied on her, listened to her, would do what she says, etc. is false.

And they can’t claim he listened to her at any other point, because that is not shown; they weren’t in contact.

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Conclusion...

Steve and Peggy knew OF each other for 626 days 

or 20 months & 15 days.

(From mid-June 1943 to the beginning of March, 1945.)

They spoke on 2 days max in June, 1943 (the 22nd and probably 23rd, the day of his serum and day after) despite being in the same place for a week prior and sharing a prior car ride!

They spoke on 4 days max in November 1943.

3rd day-- Nov 3rd, in Italy, pre-107 rescue,  4th day-- Nov 10th, in Italy, post-107 rescue,  5th day-- Nov 14th(?) In London, the day Steve relayed Hydra intell and told Col. Phillips he was assembling his own team, while Brandt was expecting him to be in America receiving his medal for valour; probably the same day the Howlies were founded. 6th day-- Nov 15th(?) 8am, in London, when Peggy shot him.

They spoke on 2 days in February & March, 1945: 

7th day-- in the pub in London (Tuesday, 27th February?) 8th day-- the day of the Valkyrie raid (Thursday, 1st March.)

(While they are shown in the same place on another intervening day, February 28th, when they are both at London HQ during planning for the Valkyrie Mission, and it’s possible or even plausible that they did interact at that point... they are not actually shown speaking to each other on that day.) 

Totalling: a maximum of 8 days.

(could be as low as 6.)

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And 6 months later, Peggy, Stark and Phillips founded SHIELD and had already recruited Zola into it in order for it to be front page news by 

Tuesday, 14th August, 1945:

(Thus putting the lie to the ridiculous idea that they didn’t know they’d recruited Nazis or what they were up to, btw. 👆)

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So of the 20 months & 15 days total they knew of each other, Steve and Peggy were only shown being in the same place and in contact during (but not for the entirety of) 4 months -- Jun and Nov ‘43, and Feb and March ‘45. 

For 19 months & 15 days of the 20 months & 15 days they knew of each other, they were not even in the same place: 

4 months while Steve was on one side of the Atlantic, during the late June-October USO Tour, she was in Europe. 

And 15 months & 15 days / 473 days when he was on the continent doing Hydra weapons-parts factory raids (from probably mid-Nov 1943 - Mar 1945) and she was in London. 

And this is deliberate by the film-makers, to depict theirs as a thwarted relationship-that-never-was, a Casablanca style ‘we never dated’ situation. Not a romance, but what could’ve been a romance, had circumstances been different. Them not being together is literally the point. 

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They show zero direct or indirect contact between the two during those 15 months & 15 days, and multiple things imply that there was none. 

For example: 

She doesn’t know that Steve has a friend in the 107 (which a correspondent would). 

Steve is surprised to see her (a correspondent wouldn’t be). 

Steve tells her about what he’s been up to, as if it’ll be new information to her. (It wouldn’t be, to a correspondent.) Sidenote: as per She Hulk, Bruce Banner is under the impression Steve slept with some woman during this time. SIGH.

Despite Agent Carter show’s attempts to retcon her history with Bucky’s  stolen valour / war record (nonsensically, since he is a soldier and she’s supposed to be a spy), the film and script are clear that she isn’t in Europe with the Howlies. 

She complains about having every door shut in her face, professionally, and Phillips says she was only at a desk job because he “took a chance with” hiring her. Ergo she’s complaining about not being in the field. 

Steve wouldn’t be carrying a photo of someone he sees in person for work all the time. The compass is physical evidence that she wasn’t there.  Sidenote: Steve wouldn’t be dating anyone Period, since he specifically said he didn’t want to do that. And Peggy also said she wouldn’t date until after the war is over. But anyway!

And, logically, if she's supposed to be a spy she also wouldn’t have her face broadcast in cinemas, making any cover she had useless, as Steve would know. But anyway!  It just highlights how they’re not really doing their jobs of writing her as a spy properly.

Steve wouldn’t need to take a photo out of a paper or SSR personnel file (which is what it looks like) if he saw Peggy regularly in person for work, or if they had been corresponding by letter, because she could’ve given him a proper photo personally. 

(This simultaneously rules out the possibility that she went out with the Howlies, and then went back to London; because if she had, she still could’ve given Steve a proper photo of herself, either via letter or in person.)

Likewise, Peggy wouldn’t need to steal a photo of Steve out of a personnel file if they had been in regular contact, either in person or by letter. (Because he could’ve given her a proper photo if they had been in contact.)

Steve and the Howlies are shown in direct contact with... each other, easily implying a long-standing relationship without having to go to a lot of film-making effort, via montage... but she is not. 

Whereas she is shown in the montage, but not being in direct contact. If the film-makers had wanted to show direct contact between them during this montage, they very easily could have. But they didn’t. If she had been there with the Howlies, and it was the film-makers intention to imply that, she would be in the footage with the Howlies, not sitting in a cinema in London watching footage of a mere photo of herself in the newsreels. Whatever your headcanon, you cannot retcon/change what canon is; the canon is that she wasn’t there in person. 

By February 1945 she still isn’t on first-name terms with Bucky, Steve’s second in command. That would be odd, if she was there in person.

As mentioned earlier, in her own show Dum-dum Dugan is disquieted by Peggy’s presence and reacts to her being in the field with the men as if it’s a fresh, disorientating experience for him, and he doesn’t know how to act. If she had actually been in the field with the Howlies in WWII, this could not be the case. He couldn’t be disorientated by something he was already used to. 

Steve’s time in London in WWII was so minimal that when he goes drinking to grieve Bucky, he goes drinking in the Whip & Fiddle even though it’s in ruins. That pub is chosen for its emotionally significant connection to Bucky... but if Bucky (Steve & the Howlies) had been in London a lot, they could’ve gone to other places, too, and there would be no reason to attach any particular significance to that one pub. But Steve does. And no other footage of the Howlies in London is shown. Ergo, the Howlies were in London for such a short period that the pool of places Steve could be is so small there’s only one (1) option. The alternative is that they were in London for ages and drinking in loads of places (and they never showed it for some reason) and that Peggy had to go around loads of pubs until she found the one Steve was in. But that would be daft. 

We are never shown the Howlies returning to that pub or London at all until after Steve is also ‘dead’ (ie. no proof of them going there multiple times. They easily could have shown that, in montage, if the Howlies had been back in London. But they didn’t.) They treat it as a special, 'one-off Solemn Event’ type of place. Not a regular haunt. 

And Steve is still surprised to see Peggy there, meaning he doesn’t think she knows him well enough to guess where he would go / that he didn’t tell her he was going there (possibly one of the Howlies did). So the reason she finds him can’t be because they interacted prior. 

She still has to ask Steve whether he respected “your friend” Bucky (when even Col. Phillips knows to refer to Bucky as Steve’s oldest friend, by this point). 

Steve tells her he can’t get drunk and has to ask whether she knows that already or not. This is yet another example of something a close confidante or correspondent of 15+ months would know, and that Steve wouldn’t ask because he would know/assume she already knew, if they had been in continuing contact.  (It’s unlikely that Steve himself didn’t know, before this moment. Soldiers who founded their unit in a pub? haven’t done any drinking for 15 months and 15 days? Not likely!) 

CEvans’s acting lends an air of despair and futility to the scene, too -- Steve trying to drink away his sorrows, even though he knows it won’t work. Had his tone been different, it would’ve connoted something else, eg. ‘hey, I’ve just found this new thing about my metabolism, did you know?’

Not being able to get drunk is canonically the very kind of thing Steve would complain about to her (and canonically also the very kind of thing she would tell him more about). If Steve was in contact with Peggy then he would’ve complained about it before, eg. via letter, too. But he didn’t, because he doesn’t know whether or not she knows. So they weren’t in contact.

The Howlies are only shown being in Phillips’s War Rooms / in the bunker in London once.  But Peggy is shown being there through the war.  If the Howlies (including Steve) were there on a regular basis, the film makers could’ve shown that in the montage. Instead the Howlies were shown on the Continent. viz. they never went back to London, and Peggy never went out to the Continent, until the very last mission.

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It is shown that the updated intelligence of what Steve and the Howlies are accomplishing in Europe during 1944 is being relayed back to HQ in London, because Peggy and other personnel are shown taking Hydra base flags off their maps, as Steve and the Howlies take them out. 

(As a consequence of Steve et al taking them out, it’s implied.)

However... it is not shown that Steve directly relayed that information to Peggy or that it’s Peggy’s job to gather that intell from them directly.

Peggy herself says that Phillips is in charge of devising strategy, not herself, and Steve soon disregards any strategy suggestions she makes anyway -- in fact, he gives her orders, not the other way around.

So if Steve was telling anyone what the Howlies are up to in Europe, it would be his superior officer Phillips. 

Not an agent like Peggy, of no military rank. 

(This is supported by the scene where Steve, having returned from rescuing the 107, goes straight to Phillips to report his successful mission. Not to Peggy, who is right there.) 

Plus, the Howlie shown handling communications isn’t Steve... 

...it’s Morita. 👆 (And guess who interrupts him and shoves him out of his seat?) 

So while the Howlies were in contact during the 15 months & 15 days of Howling Commando Hydra weapons-factory raids:

it would’ve been very difficult / limited / all shop talk. 

it must’ve been so insignificant that we don’t hear what was said, or see who said it, in the film.

(Given that they insist on showing us every possible plot-irrelevant* sexy lamp heterosexual interaction, the fact that they don’t show Steve talking to Peggy on the radio all year is the biggest proof that it didn’t happen. IMO we would’ve seen it.)

so either it’s considered grunt work and would’ve been done by eg. Morita(?) to a similarly lower-ranked person at HQ (maybe even Lorraine!), who at best would’ve relayed it to Peggy who then relayed it to Phillips. But that’s still no contact between Steve and Peggy.

or it’s so important that only someone as important as Steve would report it directly to someone as important (viz. Phillips) as Steve does when coming back from rescuing the 107 (still wasn’t significant enough to be seen in the film.)

While I can see Peggy kicking a lower-ranked person off their chair, to butt in on the call, if Steve was on the line -- as she later does to Morita -- the fact that we didn’t see that happen. Again, basic writing rules apply: if it isn’t shown it didn’t happen. 

there were only six prospective Hydra weapons factories mentioned as targets for Steve and the Howlies, so only six more occasions when they even might’ve officially interacted from the Continent: 

Roughly: 

And while there are more Hydra bases indicated as existing on the maps/via flags removed from the maps... 

...None of these 👆 are explicitly linked to Steve and the Howlies, there’s no indication that the existence of these was discovered or relayed (or that they specifically were destroyed) by Steve and Co. 

And it’s made out to be a Big Deal that they find out where the Seventh base is, (the base Bucky told Steve they were shipping weapons parts to). Because that’s where Red Skull is. 

In total the Howlies would’ve had 9 missions during this time:

6 Hydra factories

1 mission to capture Zola

1 mission in winter to save 1000 men  (if the Smithsonian footage is true)

1 mission on D-Day (if the Smithsonian footage is true)

the Valkyrie mission would be the 10th mission.

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T I M E L I N E :

1943

JUNE: Mon 14th, Bucky gets his orders, Steve gets a 4F, visits the Stark Expo, meets Erskine, enlists and gets a 1A. Tues 15th, Bucky ships out, Steve arrives at Camp Lehigh. Mon 21st, Steve is chosen for serum. He and Erskine discuss it in the evening. Tues 22nd, Steve receives serum, Erskine is killed, Steve stops the Hydra saboteur, and is photographed by a NYE journalist. Wed 23rd morning, Phillips speaks to the President and the SSR is immediately re-tasked,  Steve appears on the front page of The New York Examiner, the Hydra sub is moved to dry dock. afternoon, Steve has his blood drawn, Stark examines the Hydra sub, Phillips relays the President’s orders, Brandt recruits Steve into the USO when he objects to Phillips's orders. night, Phillips, Stark, and Peggy, fly out to London.

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JULY-OCT: Steve in the USO, travelling across America.

OCT/NOV: Bucky and the Howlies are captured by Hydra at Azzano.

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NOVEMBER: 3rd, afternoon, Steve does USO show in Italy, 5 miles behind enemy lines. evening, Steve rescues 107.

10th, Steve returns to base with 400 soldiers of the 107, having safely travelled 35 miles including 30 miles of mountainous heavily fortified enemy terrain, with wounded in tow.

? 11th-14th, Steve's rescue is reported in Stars and Stripes, Senator Brandt decides to give him a medal for valour, news gets back to UK and appears in The Daily Mail. Brandt expects Steve to come back to the US to receive his medal in person. Steve declines. 

? 14th, London, HQ, Steve relays Hydra intell to Phillips and Peggy, night, Steve recruits Bucky & the Howlies, takes Bucky's input on the suit.

? 15th, London, HQ, 8am, Steve gets sexually assaulted, Steve gets physically assaulted (Peggy shoots at him), Steve picks the shield, Steve relays Cap uniform ideas to Stark. .

1944

Howlies deployed in Europe for 15 months and 15 days, taking out 6 Hydra weapons factories shown in Italy, Greece, France, Czechslovakia. and Poland. 

(The original CATFA script also mentions factories in Belgium and Russia, but these aren’t referenced in the canon movie. 

Avengers 1 deleted scene shows Steve taking part in the planning of D-Day, which would’ve put him and the Howlies in France, from 6 June 1944 - August. Probably means they would’ve had to be back in England in the run up to D-Day, to take part in rehearsals. 

If the Smithsonian mention of a winter blockade-breaking mission also happened, that might be part of the Battle of the Bulge, so that would be Dec-Jan ‘44-45. In total it would be 9 missions, and the Valkyrie mission makes 10.)

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1945

FEBRUARY: (possible) Sun 25th, Bucky ‘KIA.’  (possible) Mon 26th, Howlies & Zola travelling back to London.

(possible) Tues 27th, London am, Steve writes/delivers a report about Bucky. Phillips (reads Steve’s report? knows about Bucky) sends a misleading telegram about Zola, back-dated February 3rd, to Washington via SHAEF. pm, Phillips interrogates Zola and finds out 1st March is Valkyrie Day. Steve goes drinking to grieve Bucky.

Wed 28th, London, HQ, Valkyrie Mission briefing.

MARCH:  Thurs 1st, Atlantic. Steve and Red Skull 'KIA.' Last contact with Peggy. Fri 2nd, Moria and Dum-dum capture Werner Reinhardt. Mon 5th, Steve reported "disappeared" in newspaper. Fri 23rd, KGB opens file on Bucky.

APRIL: Surviving Howlies are mopping up remaining Hydra personnel in Europe? MAY. Tues 8th, V-E Day. London. The Howlies reunite at the Whip & Fiddle, for the first time since they were founded there, to drink a toast in remembrance of Steve.

AUGUST: Tues 14th, Stark, Phillips and Carter have founded SHIELD and recruited Zola and more, which is reported on front page news.

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the number of individual occasions he spoke to her would be: 13

pre serum (22nd June, 1943)

post serum (23rd June, 1943)

pre rescue (day; 3rd November, 1943)

during rescue (night; 3rd November, 1943) 

post rescue (10th November, 1943) 

at HQ (day; 14th? November 1943)

in the pub (night; 14th? November 1943) 

at HQ (morning; 15th? November 1943)

at HQ (morning; 15th? November 1943)

in the pub (night; 27th? February, 1945)

pre Valkyrie (1st March, 1945)

pre Valkyrie (1st March, 1945)

during Valkyrie (1st March, 1945).

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TL;DR: They knew of each other for 626 days total, (from 15th June 1943 - 1st March 1945), aka: 20 months 14 days; 19 months & 15 days of which they weren’t in the same place, and only spoke on 13 occasions over 8 separate days.

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In AC, the only time you see a person from the same socioeconomic class as Peggy, they're a villain. Similar thing with Tony's villains in IM (Obadiah Stane, Anton Vanko, Justin Hammer, Aldrich Killian...) they're just Other Tonys.

(So you can tell that TPTB have some kind of... English fetish going on and think upper classness is definitely part of her Specialness?)

While Tony has the same 'avoidance of all consequences for his actions' wealthy white privilege that Peggy has, there are certain important differences.

Generally speaking, they share one over-arching trait, which is: if you consider whether or not the world / people around them would be better off if they didn't exist, the answer is yes.

Without Tony, there'd be no Anton Vanko, no Aldrich Killian, no Quentin Beck (which means no Spider-Mans dimensional incursion), no Ultron (which, in another universe, endangered the entire multiverse), no dead Pietro, no dead Sokovians generally (meaning probably no Scarlet Witch, no Vision, no Westview Hex, all the knock-on effects of that?), no Snap. And Hulk or Thor could have put the nuke through the wormhole in A1 (except he wouldn't because it wouldn't have been written into the story at all since Hemsworth doesn't have short man syndrome.)

With no Peggy, Steve's story in CATFA isn't altered (because she didn't matter to the plot or his life at all). But there would be no Winter Soldier programme (since she wouldn't be around to give the man who started it a job at SHIELDra), ergo no Black Widows being mind-controlled either (since that was based on Winter Soldier tech), no continued Hydra (WhatIf confirms all this by showing that a SHIELD founded by everyone else who was there originally, except her, has no Nazis in it.) Ergo no Project Insight. No Winter Soldier means no assassination of Howard Stark, so no Civil War bust up of the Avengers, if Tony still exists (unless Zemo found some other way to effect it). C.1940s her male colleagues in SSR would have handled everything she interfered with in AC, Edwin Jarvis's wife wouldn't have been sterilised by gsw in the uterus, and Daniel Sousa would have settled down with a nice girl (nurse Violet, possibly Skye) and wouldn't have been assassinated by Hydra for whistleblowing in 1955, because there wouldn't be any Hydra.

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Now the differences:

First, Tony is actually above-average at some of the things he thinks he's good at, so his arrogance based on that is at least partially warranted (which Peggy's conviction of her own competence, moral integrity, etc. isn't).

His estimate of his own ability is debatable, though, since his genius (in the MCU) stems from the Grand American Capitalist Tradition of stealing other peoples' work, doing a minimal amount to hone it, and then claiming all the credit / reaping all the financial reward.

(See: Iron Man suits, AI, E.D.I.T.H., B.A.R.F., Extremis serum, time-travel, etc. Tony's only original creations I can think of in the MCU are his robot-servants and the improvised booby-traps from Iron Man 3.)

Second, Tony may have got into MIT as a legacy admission (nepotism), but he does actually have at least some of the expertise in a STEM field to warrant a place, which Peggy lacks.

(She gets an honorary degree from IIRC Oxford: ie. rewarded for doing no work. And while she claims competence in mathematics (as part of the AC retcon of her war record), outside of one code-breaking scene her alleged mathematical ability is never shown. And in fact there is a scene where a character has to explain to Peggy how many sides a cube has. No, I am not exaggerating. This literally happened.

And Bletchley Park's happy concession to her leaving mid-war suggests she wasn't a crucial employee. It's like the opposite of all those 'screenshots of my boss begging me to come back after I quit' stories.)

Third, while Tony may have inherited his company without earning it, he does have the necessary brains and thieving habits to create and maintain such a company if he wanted to. He was CEO for decades (since the age of 21) without the company imploding.

Although Obadiah Stane was dirty dealing under his nose without his knowledge so- er wow okay looks like he and Peggy are neck and neck? Except that Peggy did know she had bastards working for her and kept them on anyway (see: Zola, Mitchell Carson).

Tony has some appropriate skills; which cannot be said of Peggy in any of her unearned spying jobs.

Peggy is a nepotism baby who couldn't stomach any of the jobs she was handed on a silver platter, one after another, that she kept idiotically choosing to ask for despite her unsuitability for them (which she also cannot recognise).

And then she flaked out on these jobs from 'boredom,' even in the middle of a crisis like a world war (failure is never her fault, always the job's, always the mens').

Essentially she keeps asking for desk jobs she doesn't deserve, being given them because of glass ceiling nepotism, and then whining when she… is expected to do them? And is not respected when she doesn't?

She believes she is a brilliant, underappreciated spy, surrounded by inferiors, but cannot spot a single spy when they infiltrate her organisation or home (any one of many, many occasions: during the war and after).

She's a spy who craves attention.

Whose disguises fail in seconds, and are so inept that she cannot avoid detection by someone who barely knows her, even when photographed from the back!

(Contrast that with actual-spy Natasha, whose disguises are so good not even we realise it's her until she reveals herself! Or Coulson, who is not disguised but is so unassuming that he has no need!)

Peggy is a woman who thinks she is a sort of hero to other women... but is fine shunting the work which she considers beneath her off onto them... (but she reacts with outrage when men do that exact same thing to her) ...or fine with letting her rich male friends get away with chauvinism.

Who interferes to prevent male feminist colleagues from taking steps that would make life better for the Other Girls (whom she is Not Like and who Cannot Therefore be allowed to Become Like her.)

(Because as long as White Feminist knows Her value, she's the only person that matters!)

It takes a certain level of competence to correctly gage the extent of your own competence, or relative incompetence. It's the basis of true self-awareness.

She lacks that.

(Whether Tony also lacks it is... not clear. Maybe he does, too).

Peggy's continued bloody-minded belief that she is, eg. a competent spy and a feminist, directly contrary to the evidence... (because the writers aren't capable of recognising when they've written the exact opposite of what they vaguely intended) ...is the proof that she lacks the qualities necessary to actually be either of those things.

And to realise that she is just not physically or temperamentally suited to spying or heroism, at all.

She does share Tony's habit of blaming anything but herself for her problems, though. 🤔

When Peggy shows up hours late for work, eats like a slob at her desk while all the men are doing their paperwork, refuses to do said paperwork (even though that's the job she's been hired for and accepted) as if it's an insult to even ask her, shunts it off onto female underlings (can't expect Her Majesty to do it, but those working class sluts upstairs?), and then does nothing except sabotage her colleagues' work for months, then unilaterally hires someone (Johann Fennhoff) who cannot be trusted and so kills 40+ people...

She acts as if her male colleagues' lack of respect for her ability is due to ONLY sexism, and not to her being -- for example -- lazy, treacherous, bad-tempered, entitled, disastrously incompetent, and a self-outing nepotism hire, who is ALSO a woman.

(The fact that she is also sloppy/unprofessional at work is moot, since at least one of the male agents is too, and in this field her capacity for violence is a feature, not a bug.)

When Tony calls himself a "genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist" he is at least getting 1/4 of those right... ish?

(Is it genius to commit industrial espionage and rip off the designs of other men including employees, do 12% of the work and then patent them as your own?

When it's JARVIS and FRIDAY who do everything for him, actually?

Is inheriting generational wealth a flex?

Does exchanging sex for favours make you a womaniser or a creepy Weinstein-esque loser?

Does making money off cleaning up the very mess you caused, for Rich-White-Guy tax write-offs, count as actual philanthropy?

Would an actual philanthropist list philanthropy last, of all those things on the list?)

He does appear to learn from his mistakes for a brief period...

(His Act 1 Fuck Up is usually revealed as a Plot!Coupon necessary for his Act 3 Success; the icing over of the Iron Man suit, the double-reverb attack gained from firing at Rhodey in IM2, etc.)

...But that is over-ruled at the beginning of each new Iron Man movie, when the lessons of the last one are ignored to set his personality back at 0. 🙄

In the case of the Avengers movies, though, he doesn't learn at all. Ultron tries to murder everyone (WhatIf reveals he would have eventually destroyed the entire multiverse.)

Hydra tries to enact Project Insight A.I. to kill millions...

And yet years later Tony is still claiming those two as morally correct successes, flawed only because they were made to fail (not because they were horrible fascist ideas to begin with), and redoing Insight as EDITH only giving it to a disaster teenage boy. 🤦‍♀️

Peggy, however, is pathologically incapable of learning from mistakes, because that first requires you to acknowledge that you are capable of making mistakes, which is inconceivable to her.

She has herself up on a high pedestal, as the pinnacle of womanhood around which the world and all other women surely revolve, and cannot be knocked off her axis.

The closest she has ever come to an accurate self-assessment was when Edwin Jarvis called her arrogant and ignorant and she flippantly pretended to agree. (Inadvertently proving him right).

Tony is possibly redeemable because he at least has sensible people around him, telling him he's a fucking idiot.

He does occasionally make the obeisance of saying 'my bad,' even if he doesn't fully comprehend it.

Peggy on the other hand isn't redeemable because she doesn't think she's ever done anything wrong in her life, ever.