We catch up with Rob Cloutier, coach of NXN-qualifying Shenendehowa of New York who’s distance program has seen success on both the course and the track. Rob gives us some insight on what makes his program rock and roll and just how tough NY XC really is.
High School Harrier: Your program is projected #12 for our pre-season NXN rankings. Is this how you feel the team is shaping up compete this year?
Rob Cloutier: I think your ranking is generous and hopefully realistic but also I hope in December it underrates it! We haven't met as a team yet to discuss the season goals formally (we will do that next week at a 'mini' camp we hold with our potential top group prior to the season starting), however based on a conversation I had with the 6 returners just hours after the '16 NXN race while in the hotel in Portland they want to do something Shenendehowa has never done before (finished 8th in '09, 18th in '14, 14th in '16). In my own estimation we can be a very good team based on the attitude and efforts being exemplified this Summer. How good compared to anyone else is subject to racing over the next few months.
HSH: The New York region is very tough this year with 3 teams in our projected top 12, how do you feel about competing against literally the top teams in the country year in and year out from NY in terms of preparation for national competition?
RC: Certainly the fact that NY has its own region is justified historically and its impact on our team is not only verified by the results come late Fall, but also on the track in Winter and Spring. NY girls distance running is special; so many deep squads and individuals. We don't have to go very far to be tested. Our own league championships (Suburban Council) is as deep as some state championship races!
Many of our graduates come back from college and tell us our high school team, league, section are better than their universities! This level of competition prepares you for nationals by establishing the intense competitive fervor and defining the willpower needed to approach the grind that the post season presents for us (6 straight weeks of championship running where each week arguably determines whether there is a next week). It also allows you to be cognizant of where you stand fairly often.
HSH: Your team didn't qualify for state last year but finished 14th at NXN. Can you explain why qualifying for State in NY is so difficult as well as your thoughts on the NY qualifying process?
RC: Qualifying for state in New York is unique in that we have a public high school state championship where the largest classification (A) only has 9 of 11 (or 12 I forget) sections of NY represented due to the 2 northern-most section not having any schools large enough for class A. You have a must-win race (Sectional Championship) that decides the 1 team and 5 individuals who'll represent the section in each of 4 classes. So despite being a national qualifier on 3 occasions in the past 8 years of coaching XC we have yet to be at our own state meet (we have yet to win a league championship or section or state championship as well!)
We also have a Federation race (which represents all of NY including the Catholic league (Staten Island and Buffalo), Private Schools (NYC area) and Independent schools along with a group of public schools based on a merge of the 4 class races the week prior (State Meet) and adding in at-large schools (like us) who are selected by committee in one race for the grand prize. It's a great 'idea' but with the Regional a week later many teams have elected to pass and rest up/train. This is understandable as the regional and Federation are on the same course, a bruising 5k full of hills and hard to recover from (Bowdoin Park).
Its so difficult to qualify because we compete against Saratoga Springs on their 'home' turf - a course that they have perfected tactically over 25 years to their credit. Niskayuna has put together a very strong team who has garnered national recognition lately and all 3 team including Shen are ranked by NY sources in the top 5 of the entire state. You have to be ready for that race in order to advance (example: what if you run so poorly at the sectional - fail to get an at-large nod for the fed 2 weeks later, and so pass on contesting the Regional 3 weeks later? but would have finished top 15 in the USA?)
In an ideal world the regional and the Federation would be combined and you have the ultimate championship race where no one skips it and you crown the true state champion. This eliminates one more postseason race. Does it serve NY'ers best come NXN? Who knows. It could be argued it hasn't hurt in the current format based on results.
HSH: How important is the Federations meet to your program and what did it mean for your girls to finish runner-up last year?
RC: The Fed race last year was a great momentum builder. We had 4 individuals race at the state meet and as special/rewarding as that may be - these girls are all about the team and so it was kind of a challenge in waiting to have 7 back together on the line. They showed great fortitude and North Rockland ran the best race that day, but our girls used it to propel them to an even better performance the following week (NXR NY) where we had 3 girls finish almost together serving as a 'tri-fifth' scorer.
I think it proved to them what we had thought all along, they just needed a little proof after being runner-up at Suburbans, Sectionals, missing state...again it reflected a team that continued to improve and grind through the postseason. I had a feeling of urgency that we may run out of opportunities before we ran our best race...
HSH: Does your team look to compete at NXN as a goal, or as a feather in the hat for the NY season?
RC: NXN has been one goal of many over the past few years, many of which these girls have been a part of. As I stated above I believe it will be a big goal for this year and I am excited to have that discussion with our girls next week and see what they want to achieve. Sometime the grind of a long postseason makes getting to Portland feel like a feather (and last year it was probably accurate to describe it that way because I don't think the girls had much left in the tank in December).
This present a unique challenge as a coach: Do you coach them (training) to get there, or to have their best race there? The answers and the design can be drastically different and worthy of another long conversation for another time!
HSH: The squad had a great outdoor season, averaging under 10:30 for 3k and finishing national runner-up in the 4xMile at New Balance. How much did that spring success build into how your athletes feel for the upcoming season?
RC: The Spring was a good season. We always approach every year as a complete unit. So even though there is a championship/goal portion of each season (XC, Indoor, Outdoor) the way we train is based on an annual scheme. And so I think that balance allows for long-term growth and helps the girls attack the Spring (despite adverse weather this year) with vigor.
Like everything we do the results reflect hard work and great attitudes and should the girls take the time to connect them to confidence then the outcomes of the Spring which are part of a comprehensive process should lead to bigger and better things this Fall! Sounds 'Hallmark-ish' but high schoolers live a fast and short life (day-to-day) so unless you remind them constantly then they may forget Spring '16 when in the midst of Summer/Fall and so forth.
Obviously with the returning group, the team has potential. We will need to develop and solidify the scoring positions, especially 4 and 5, and need the depth both with seasoned veterans and the influx of youth to feel it can be done.
The nature of XC being different in the team aspect (from track) is that every Fall is new and different team. We can use the results from the Spring to assume certain potentials but the motivation and personality of this year's team must be molded anew and not held subjective to last year's results or any other year.
HSH: Do you have any athletes you feel are ready to have a breakout season this year?
RC: I hope so! We have a rising group of sophomores who are fiercely competitive and so I am carefully developing them aerobically and will use the competitive opportunities of racing to shape them for the post season. All of the girls including the coaches are hoping we get one athlete who competed with us on the track in winter and spring to join us this Fall - she has been involved in field hockey - but we will put in a good plug for XC before the season starts!
HSH: What do you think about your program is the ingredient to the success your team has in both cross and track?
RC: Well any program that has success, and more importantly long-term success, certainly has a solid training program, successful guidance and motivation from coaches and leadership along with the support of the school, parents and community. And I believe we have that.
What we have worked hard to establish in the past decade and keep of utmost importance is a culture that values relationships. We put a premium on balance across the board, and we have a ton of fun and still get after it.
We really value long-term development. I try to undertrain our best athletes with a regard hope that they will prosper at the collegiate level under great guidance. Balance across all elements - meaning anything from social aspect of having a ton of fun; balanced with getting serious about hard work; how hard we work with how much we work; always bringing every element of training with us at all times - so not ignoring speed or endurance at any time during the year.
Since we view the year as a whole we don't sell the farm for anything immediately, but that doesn't mean we don't try to 'peak' during championships (we have a focus on team championship excellence locally on up to the state level), but it does mean we are progressive and patient with overall athletic growth.
Everyone knows the endurance athlete's development requires patience.
HSH: What is your favorite workout to do with the girls and do you have any workouts you use as a gauge to test to see if your girls are prepared to compete at a high level?
RC: Well like most coaches we have appropriated and adapted workouts to fit our makeup and needs. They have changed through the years but lately the girls enjoy a 'Michigan' style session in the Fall where they get excited about the challenge. We use it as a gauge of readiness for the championship gauntlet! On the track we often do rep work with 'hammers' (got that from Doug Soles of Great Oak, but he doesn't know that). The girls like to go fast, so we have a mini progression in the Spring. But we rarely duplicate workouts in a year - we may use them from year to year but not repetitively in a season - this is by design to keep them from comparing or expecting results, as well as keeping things fresh, and it's also a product of the length of training microcycles we often use in each season.
HSH: What is the team culture of your program and what do you do to help build it?
RC: Culture is huge. I have felt more and more strongly about this the longer I coach.
In my earlier years of coaching I was reading everything training related and the science end of training theory, and went to conferences, and wanted to know what well known coaches did in training, specific workout, 'secret/magic' workouts, etc...But I think I have learned that those things are not important and are futile without establishing the foundation of culture, which is paramount in cross country.
A few years ago we lacked in certain aspects and last Summer we made culture our biggest priority; we had many talks and I had a plethora of notes and thoughts and we put procedures in place to manage potential pitfalls like drama; we selected captains and we established accountability and we always only talk about team, we, us...
Our theme for a decade regardless of season is 'Legacy' (it's on every shirt we have usually). So the culture of our program is fun, family and I think we are in a good place with room to grow. We expect big things because we work hard and we play hard, so success at a local, state and national level is the expectation because everything the girls do is grounded in the belief that it's done to the best of their ability no matter how mundane it may seem in the moment. You have to get kids to buy in and you have to make it worthwhile and fun - because without those factors running can be boring or a grind. As a coach if you ask a lot you better give a lot and back it up foremost with how much you care, for real.
HSH: Do you have a team tryout or do you accept anyone that comes out?
RC: We haven't traditionally held a 'tryout' but this Spring at our preseason info meeting at the end of the school year I spoke about the need to be fit. Since we don't make cuts normally we often have kids come in that have not prepared and if you allow them to participate they often take up valuable time because they aren't prepared and sometimes that leads to injuries and with 60+ girls for myself, my assistant Keith ( a huge proponent of the success of team culture) and my valuable volunteer coach Jen (gotta have that female coach to deal with teenage girl stuff!) it's a challenge to meet the needs of every kid. We have put it out there that we may not accept everyone based on how they may or may not have prepared. This won't be a matter of speed/talent but more so a matter of commitment. In spring track we had 180+ girls, and almost all of them fully-committed!
HSH: How much training, if any, does the girls program get with the boys program?
RC: Because of the size of our school (a larger school in NY [boys participants are 60+ as well as the girls]) we don't often combine locations or training due to logistics. The track can get quite crazy with a turf field full of 'ball' sports, both track squads and the modified at times making it a circus - so both distance coaches, myself and the boy's coach, often avoid the same place and same time for that reason. Certainly we have had stellar girls who could use the presence of boys to push in certain workouts and maybe that is something that happens in the future.
HSH: If I am a freshman in your program, what will my fall will look like in terms of training and racing?
RC: If I have never met you before then we spend some time early on figuring out what you can do (basic running, how many days per week, a very moderate build-up. We want you to be able to run 30' without stopping, 5 days a week and a 6th cross training. That may take a few weeks or most of the season depending upon your potential and motivation. This Fall if you come in without any running you may not be on the team, but for the purpose of answering the question with some detail let's assume you have run enough to be able to run 30' 5-6 days a week - we then train you like everyone else, just at a lower intensity and volume (eventually being consistently at ~20-25 miles per week) and you learn to compete by racing (whereas we may hold out older varsity kids in certain competitions to train and be better prepared for the postseason and major meets - where depth allows you this luxury). If you are a varsity level talent we try to select one dual or invite to test you out with the varsity girls at the longer distance (freshman run around 1.5 miles and varsity 2.5 miles-5k) and if you are a scoring capable participant then we bring you into that mix without compromising long-term growth and or increasing injury likelihood.
I think the manner in which we train on an annual scheme tends to favor the 2nd year in, so we see big jumps for our sophomores. I have data that shows a remarkable progression in the 800/1500/3000m by year in the program and grade - so it reflects the priority we place on development and patience.
When you are painstakingly careful to maintain the health of kids, it in turn allows them to train consistently and furthers their aerobic and athletic development, then you have the luxury of depth on most occasions.
HSH: What regular season meet are you looking forward to most this year?
RC: We are going back to McQuaid, in the Rochester area back from a year or two off. It is a fantastic meet run by great meet management and brings in teams and competition we don't normally see in our area of NY. On the calendar it falls at a nice time to see growth and gauge what work is sufficient and what may be lacking. We are also headed to Rhode Island, Goddard State Park, which will be new for us.
HSH: What advice would you give to aspiring coaches looking to build a national class program?
RC: Read everything, talk and ask questions with everyone. Journal. Test out theories, methods and take risks. Don't be too rigid and unwilling to change. And MOST importantly learn what works for YOUR group. It's always unique and ever-changing as the faces change constantly.
Photo courtesy of The Daily Gazette.
