#profic stuff

let’s put something in perspective: under discord’s new guidelines, if i wanted to talk about my byler fic in there, i could get in serious legal trouble. even if a sfw byler creator posts art of, say, byler making out or something in discord, they could get in serious legal trouble. this isn’t normal, it’s part of a global trend in which platforms are cowering from the right wing governments that want to erode free speech from queer people & women.

that said, you guys on here have been extremely respectful to me in this regard so im not worried, but if you find yourself wondering why you keep running into freaks like me in the spicy byler space, this is why! the right to spicy byler post and the right to post stuff that you find gross are one and the same. you don’t have to engage with it, but i appreciate being able to coexist while we continue the fight for free speech.

well, this i understand bc that’s happened to me before. there’s certain topics i’m not into, that i’m squicked out by, so sometimes if a creator suddenly posts that stuff im like, woah! but the reason i don’t find myself then worrying they might be “someone you wouldn’t want to associate with in real life” is because i believe in a hard line between fiction and reality. to me, it doesn’t matter what someone posts/writes/creates as long as it’s rooted in fiction. when i see someone engaging with the topics i don’t like, i don’t worry that there is anything unhealthy or immoral about them. fiction has nothing to do with that. the only people i wouldn’t want to hang with irl are ones who perpetrate or condone harm to real people. as you said, dangerous people exist in fandom, and that is where my line is drawn.

Thanks for describing in honest detail your preference as well, but I'll have to agree to disagree with this stance, because I couldn't relate to the way you placed incest in a similar place on the scale to something like cheating or enemies to lovers! These things are not the same, much like saying brown and blue are not the same even though they're both colours.

For example, the duffers possibly exploring sexual abuse with young will does not mean they condone it. But the difference is, that the portrayal of CSA in stranger things is very different to the portrayal of the same topics you see in proship communities in this fandom. One is depiction, the other is romanticisation. People in pro-ship ARE getting off, emotionally if not physically, and this is clear through the way they write, their use of emoji or fandom slang, the celebratory/giggly mood of a blog, etc. Meanwhile the duffers are exploring an idea and expressing their true views on that through fiction - and its clear what their views are by who is portrayed as the villain in their story. But fandom then takes that villain and romanticises it.

These two things are not the same, and even though 'its just fiction', fiction holds truth: it's an expression of the beliefs, views and outlook of the writer, whether conscious or subconscious. Fiction is always a portrait of the writer who writes it, even if they don't intend it to be. To say 'it doesnt matter as its just fiction' doesnt ring true, because there IS truth in fiction. Not facts, but emotional truth, and the emotions we have when reading are akin to those we have to real life events that actually do happen. This is why we are able to love fictional characters as much as people we know in real life. Likewise, why shouldn't the mind feel genuine disgust at fictional topics just because they're fictional? The truth of them is still true, even if the specific details and 'facts' are fictional. If this wasn't the case, story itself wouldn't compel us as a form of art.

There seems to be a lot of emphasis in pro-ship communities on what we physically do in life being what matters most, when our emotional responses to things are actually what make us who we are. You can't police thoughts, but some thoughts are intrusive, while others are celebrated and taken further. Writing fiction IS a physical act and a choice. It's the creation of something, bringing it from the mind into the real world, and sharing it, too. It's no longer just a 'fictional thought', it becomes something the artist condones through the tone in which they express that idea.

Perhaps this simply comes down to different minds and what we personally consider disturbing or something that needs professional help, or how we each understand what fiction actually is. But my gut instinct whenever I encounter individuals pro-shippers is that there is an element of guilt there, as if they know it's wrong but can't help it or don't want to.

I won't continue this discussion any more, but I'm really grateful for your time and information. Thank you.

good morning anon!

yeah, it seems we just disagree fundamentally on the fiction vs reality topic, but i appreciate your curiosity nonetheless.

you don’t have to respond to this as i know you said you’re done with the discussion, but since this is going on my blog, i’m going to use my response to make my stance clear about some things:

our emotional responses to things do not make us who we are. emotions can come and go, and we can’t always control them. our character comes from our choices.

it’s not true that “the emotions we have when reading are akin to those we have to real life events that actually do happen.” for example, i feel wholly different emotions when reading incest fic versus what i feel when i hear about real life occurrences of incest. fictional incest is not real life incest, they are two different worlds. (i know anon and i disagree on this point)

an author’s tone does not indicate their real-life moral position on the subject matter. creators rarely state their tone outright, and instead we’re interpreting it, so it’s super subjective from the jump. i get what you mean though, so let’s take the duffers as an example. sure, they’re clear on that particular issue (the csa perpetrator = the villain) but don’t they also muddy the waters quite a bit?

“hey, my sister will be like your sister!” (kisses her)

karen comes close to hooking up with 17 year old billy, and the show never paints her attraction to him as wrong. in fact, based on several tonal choices such as music and costuming, i would say the audience was meant to root for her to meet up with billy. she decides against it because she has a family, but she’s never shown to be happy with ted either. she doesn’t get rewarded for making the “moral” choice.

even when it comes to vecna and the potential csa allegory, s4 starts to show the reasoning behind henry’s behavior, and the first shadow dives into this even deeper. would you say the duffers were wrong for giving him a backstory, lest they accidentally justify any of his actions or make the audience feel some empathy towards him? on top of that, he’s heavily paralleled with will, one of our heroes. was it wrong for the duffers to do that, knowing that vecna is an abuser (will’s abuser at that)? did they concern themselves with worrying whether the audience is going to sympathize with henry? or: did they just write the story they wanted because they trust us to know it’s all fiction?

finally: “getting off” does not imply condoning any more than any other type of engagement in fiction implies it. it’s morally neutral. it’s okay to feel excitement, lust, or emotional/physical release from something fictional. it doesn’t mean you condone or want it irl any more than watching these depictions in a movie does.

it’s interesting that you sense guilt from proship folks, because when i started engaging with “problematic” subjects, the creators gave me the exact opposite impression. exploring what i want in fiction has allowed me to make creative, personal growth, and mental health strides i never thought possible with the shame i used to hold onto wrt moral panic, ingrained purity culture, sex negativity and internalized homophobia/transphobia. relaxing my stance on the morality of fiction has improved my quality of life immensely, and there’s a lot less guilt in this community than any other fandom space i’ve been in.

I'm not the same anon but ive observed this topic in fandom for a longggg time and find it fascinating. so...

what i think people mean when they ask questions like 'why have you done this?' is 50% judgement on you, and 50% genuine interest in why you, personally, are interested in [taboo topic].

your response was the same as lots of pro-fiction people's responses: that you think anything goes. but that doesn't explain why you personally are interested in - in this case - incest. i mean, as a crude analogy: i'm legally allowed to stand on the roof of my building all day if i want to, but why would i want to?

so i think its a morbid curiosity from people who would are afraid of taboo topics like incest - and fair enough, it's probably not an uncommon response for someone to be revolted by that, and want to know why/how you aren't repulsed by it. and all that is packaged in a judgemental, badly-shaped box of a question haha.

of course you aren't obligated to answer why you're interested in it, but for me, i'm fascinated, because personally im not into incest. i liken these kinds of asks to how you might feel if, in real life, you discovered that your parents or friends were into incest. it might make you have a hard think about some things and reappraise who they were as people. i think people online are just trying to figure out who might be someone who is healthy and exploring things through fiction in a healthy way they can relate to, and those who are actually not very healthy individuals who celebrate things that the healthy mind would generally find upsetting - someone you wouldn't want to associate with in real life, not because you're in danger, but because we all have people who we instinctually know we don't want to be around. and ofc, its true that there will be people in fandom who ARE dangerous, too. but online, there's so little information to glean from each other outside what our interests are. so if people like your content, and suddenly you post something upsetting to them, of course its natural for them to suddenly be wary.

i hope this feels fair and genuine. and if you would be gracious enough, i'd be interested genuinely in what makes you interested in incest and your other taboo topics. thanks!

hi there anon! thank you for giving me the opportunity to sip on wine and explore my thoughts about fictional incest!!! truly my ideal friday night

sorry in advance for the long answer, you’ve caught me at a topic i’m passionate about :)