#persistent cloaca

It is either intersexist because they view people born with cloacas as deformed or subhuman, or it is unintentionally intersexist because they are uneducated about intersexuality (which reflects societal intersexism, and how intersex bodies aren't taught about in basic biology and sex ed.)

Penises occur on animals. Vulvas occur on animals. Does that make them animalistic? No? Then why should a cloaca, which also occurs on humans, be considered animalistic?

(See this post for sketches of persistent cloacas.)

It is also intersexist that persistent cloacas are operated on without doing a sphincter examination first to see if surgery is truly necessary.

And it is intersexist that when surgery is necessary, they attempt to make it as perisex-appearing as possible, and fully separate the vagina and urethra, scarring the vaginal and urethral walls unnecessarily. When surgery is necessary, the focus should be separating the anus from the vagina and urethra, not fully separating all three canals.

Ig my question is, how is IGM differentiated from a procedure that might actually be beneficial to an intersex infant? Because it seems like there might be a situation where surgical treatment for an intersex patient could be medically beneficial (there are loads of variations out there, so it’s not out of the realm of possibility is what I mean), but I can also see “reduced risk of xyz” as a kind of excuse if that makes sense. Would something like orchiopexy be considered IGM? (Assuming that cryptorchidism is intersex which maybe it isn’t)

When it comes to those things, there has to be proof that the surgery is for their health and for their health only, but a lot of doctors either lie or exaggerate.

As for as orchiopexy, while I don't know much, that is a health based procedure that is fine to perform since it will negatively impact the child's life, but anything beyond descending the testicle into the scrotum, I would consider to be IGM.

Something I know a little bit more about is the different types of cloacas. For some cases, having one hole for all material to come out of can cause infections and diseases, so at that point it is okay to perform a surgery to separate the urethra (I believe?) from the cloaca. Where it goes too far is when they try to construct a vulva around the cloaca, or separate all of the paths that did not need to be separated. That is IGM.

I would appreciate more comments from those who know more about this than me though!

You can be a healthy adult with an unaltered persistent cloaca. It is possible.

And also, surgery for persistent cloaca are far more cosmetic then it should be. There's way too much focus on making three separate canals, when - if surgery is necessary - the focus should be on making a functional separated anus, not making a "normal urethra & vagina." There's no need to make them as perisex-looking as possible!

As far as we've seen in our research, the only intersex variation that 100% always needs surgery is urethral agenesis, because they have no way to urinate. And even then, the focus of doctors is to make it as perisex-appearing as possible.

For example, a person with a penis & urethral agenesis should usually be given a perineal urethrostomy, not a urethroplasty that reconstructs the penis, because that damages an infants penile tissue unnecessarily, and can cause sexual dysfunction, scarring, desensitization, or chronic pain later in life (since they are young, and their genitals are not developed enough for such complex procedures yet.) Theres only a few cases where opening the urethra through the penis itself would be more ethical - specifically, in the scenario where the urethra is still mostly formed but there's just a small part that is undeveloped, and all it would take to open it is to push a tool into the existing urethra and break through the undeveloped part. And even that avoids cutting open the penis itself, which saves the erectile tissue from getting scarred.

Usagi from Chiikawa is intersex, canonically genderless using they/it pronouns and with a speech disorder, and they have aphallia (link) and a persistent cloaca! The requester headcanons it to have mutism.

Requested by @tavern-get-togethers

Intersex flag-only and alternate X-Gender flag (link) edits (which was an artistic choice by admin; I felt like doing more and thought this was appropriate!) under the cut!

but is there any way it can all be connected, like that + your intestines i guess? i distinctly remember as a very very young child there being like,, i guess a hole? where there should be a wall between vagina & anus i guess

& i remember when i was verh very little a core memory of me literally pissing from my ass i guess? & my mom being confused & then rubbing medicine on my junk man idk

this could just be a very weird memory but sometimes i think about that and think "huh wtf was that"

like i know for sure going to the hormone doctor as a kid to get my junk checked to make sure it was "developing right" was weird, but this to me was when i was super duper young so its like,, weird & also not even making sense even after i kinda figured out about my stuff (regardless of the doctors efforts for me to be normal i guess my vaginal opening is completely covered by thick skin & i clearly have labial fusion for both my majora & minora or whatever theyre called)

hope this makes sense & doesnt sound completely weird??

if it helps my urethra is now on the edge of being in my vagina & sitting on the "face" of the vuvla, like hanging off a cliff. so idk.

Hello, yes! It is mentioned in our intersex guide, and you can check that out if you'd like, but you can have a partial or complete cloaca!

Here are some shittily done sketches for our upcoming intersex visual guide. (These are not the complete products, hence why they look so messy and copy-pasted.)

(Previous post this user is referencing)

Vulvar hypospadias or PUGS most definitely can cause vaginal pain during examination! Vaginal examinations are already painful to many people as-is, but for people with vulvar hypospadias, PUGS, (complete) persistent cloaca, or vaginal atresia, they can be agonizing or even impossible.

For hypospadias, PUGS, or (complete) persistent cloaca, this is due to the fact the urethral tissue is being penetrated/rubbed against, which is going to be naturally irritating.

(Also, hyperandrogenism is most definitely intersex, so you could have identified as it from the start! We understand imposter syndrome, though.)

If you have urogenital variations, you may have congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) rather than PCOS, PCOS is often misdiagnosed for CAH because the two are on such a similar spectrum, and doctors don't give a fuck about proper diagnosis of intersex variations.

so like. what's the criteria on this, if you know? most the info i'm finding is pretty vague. mine is like 5mm to 1cm wide in "stirrup position" (range due to my inability to measure myself well & also the fact that i have to spread my labia minora to access it even with my legs spread and as such it's kind of up in the air) i can really only put one finger in without experiencing discomfort (not pain). i Can fit more than that + the "average penis size" (lol?) but it's highly uncomfortable/mildly painful at that point, and it's just simply Not pleasurable. it fully feels like it's just scraping my insides with no pleasure nerves in there at all.

anyway all that to say, if you have any information on any of this i would be very grateful thanks!!! particularly the pleasure part if it's not uncomfortable, i know people claim that perisex müllerian people "dont always orgasm from vaginal penetration", but i dont know if they mean they dont experience Any Pleasure at All or just minimal compared to clitoral stimulation. thank you if you answer and no worries if not!

Sex questions are always welcome here, we are huge fans of comprehensive sex ed! /gen

The criteria for vaginal hypoplasia is less than 6 centimeters in depth and/or less than 4 centimeters in width.

So penetration for a perinormative vagina is never meant to be painful if the person is sufficiently lubricated, not unless there's a macropenis or extra large toy involved and the person is inexperienced with stretched penetrative sex.

Vaginal penetration causes pleasure for most perinormative vaginas, mainly due to the clitoral structure underneath the skin surrounding the vagina (since the clitoris is a large structure, just mostly hidden beneath the skin.)

But people with intersex variations such as vaginal hypoplasia (or potentially other forms of vaginal atresia or lower labial fusion) often lack pleasure from penetration, because the vaginal canal is blocked off or isn't stretchy enough to accommodate the size, and so most of the body's focus is on the skin that is being stretched, rather than the clitoral nerves beneath the skin.

Note: The reason why the vaginal canal itself doesn't have a lot of pleasure nerves inside of it is because the vagina forms as if a functional uterus will be present (even if a person has an intersex variation which has no uterus or a non-functional uterus), and thus it forms nerves that are prepared to give birth. If the vagina had too many sensitive nerves within it, giving birth would be an even more painful experience than it already is. That's why the clitoris beneath the skin is the main source of pleasure.