#kuro151

"Humans really do change in the blink of an eye" (ch105) vs. "I feel as if you were born nary a moment ago" (ch151)

I really love ch151 because, considering the theory that UT is Cedric and that Cedric acted as "Earl Phantomhive" before Vincent [x][x] (by marrying Claudia, the real Phantomhive heir and the Watchdog), this scene means UT probably speaks the truth and truly has no experience with "how to play the role of a butler".

But then there is this scene:

And again, considering the UT = Cedric theory, this scene in comparison means UT is kind of a liar, because if UT was Cedric and Cedric used to be Earl Phantomhive, then UT definitely knows how to manage this estate !

Finally, it's all very ironic because, whether he was Cedric or not, UT is a character who used to be a flawless Shinigami, then a skilled mortician, kind of a mad scientist and a popular school principal, so "managing an estate" or "helping with butler duties" shouldn't be out of his league at all.

This proves to me that UT doesn't necessarily want to favor one twin in particular, nor does he wish to get specifically involved in the twins' conflict, besides keeping real!Ciel "alive" (because not losing more Phantomhives is his main personal goal).

Also the Cedric persona, the Earl before Vincent, probably died soon after Claudia was murdered, so on a technicality "the Undertaker" indeed shouldn't know anything about managing an estate. Which means what he told real!Ciel was kind of a white lie.

Hey Anon! Even if you're not necessarily new to the fandom, welcome to the readers' side, hahaha! As for your question, I'm pretty sure I did answer this here and there once or twice, but I'll sum it up for you here. :)

First of all, while UT's a complex character, unlike some other fans, I never found that anything he does is senseless. Not ever since ch105. However, writing-wise, Yana-sensei can only slowly unveil more and more hints for UT's character and his agenda throughout the arcs.

For example, she can only reveal that UT "can't bear to lose another Phantomhive" after showing us that he cried about Vincent's death in the GW arc and after revealing he's a deserting Shinigami who's trying to bring back the dead in the Campania and Weston arcs. All these hints are revealed one after the other to make the readers slowly reflect about UT's goals and his true identity, as well as his past actions in previous arcs, in order to get to the bigger picture, just like you're doing right now.

As of right now, with all the hints we've gotten, we know that :

UT cares about salvaging what's left of the P family, as much as he cares about bringing back what he can of the ones who are dead (real!Ciel, maybe Claudia, but not Vincent because his body burnt too badly)

UT considers Frances and most likely her kids to be amongst the people he "can't bear to lose"

That much you can be rather sure of and that's the beginning of your answer: during the Campania arc, while our!Ciel and the Midfords were indeed in danger, UT also had to conduct this experiment in order to perfect his bizarre dolls, namely for real!Ciel's sake and for his sponsors, so he made a gamble.

For our!Ciel, he knew that Seb is a demon contracted with him, so he figured that Seb would definitely protect Ciel from the BDs.

Additionally, by checking Seb's cinematic record during the arc, he also found out about the terms of contract between him and our!Ciel (what we read about in ch138). So, post Campania and as confirmed in Weston, UT now knows that Seb is bound to obey and act as our!Ciel's shield as long as Ciel's revenge isn't achieved. That's why UT uses Seb to make sure of our!Ciel's safety.

For the Midfords, it's a similar gamble: ch151 revealed that UT has known Frances since basically her birth, so it seems logical that he's aware she's a very talented fighter, just like he probably knows that Lizzie is just as skilled (could be why she even was recruited by Bravat to protect real!Ciel if UT wasn't always around during the blue sect arc, me think).

Additionally, since UT knows that our!Ciel is quite selfless, I'm sure he also figured out that our!Ciel would order Seb to help his family if necessary:

Lastly, UT found the time to put BD!real!Ciel to safety despite the chaos on board and, since he was looking for a way to sink the ship after the experiment until they hit the iceberg, I'm quite sure he had planned to make sure our!Ciel and the rest of his family would end up safe no matter what.

That's my opinion!

I know some fans also used to think UT doesn't make a difference between being alive or dead thus used to say that, if Ciel and the Midfords had died during the Campania, UT would have simply collected their corpse and turned them into BDs. Personally I don't buy it, since his bizarre dolls still can't function without regular blood transfusions as of right now, so I'm sure he'd rather have them alive than dead.

Other fans also used to say, long ago, that Frances was in cahoots with UT during the Campania, which is why he didn't have to rescue them, because she knew enough of his plan to manage to rescue her family out of it, but 1) then why did she go on board at all? 2) I think ch151 definitely proved that she never was involved with real!Ciel's revival.

TL;DR I think UT bet on what he knew of at least our!Ciel, Seb and Frances to keep on conducting the Campania experiment while they managed to escape but, since we know he definitely doesn't want to lose them, I'm sure he had a backup plan that involved him rescuing them if necessary.

Hello Anon! Interesting question. :)) You make a good point, but I’d like to address several aspects that I hope will interest you.

First of all, I’d say that the most interesting part of their convo in ch151 was not the use of her maiden name but rather...

...the fact that, contrarily to what real!Ciel seems to think, Frances and UT have known each other since her childhood, in other words since her mother’s days as the Watchdog. You can read more about this here and here.

I also wouldn’t say it’s necessarily unprompted. After all, we’ve never seen UT interacts with anyone in the family besides the twins before this chapter, so we don’t really know for certain that this behavior of his is out of the ordinary. At least this scene tells us that he considers Frances to be a part of this family he’s working so hard (and so dangerously) to protect.  

So, who knows, maybe he was particularly emotional to see Frances (some say he kinda stuttered while saluting her)? After all, she never got involved in Ciel’s work as the Watchdog (rather sending Lizzie to check on him), but since she possibly used to help with her brother’s work, maybe UT’s just happy to see her if it’s been some years since he last talked to her (like with Dee, in ch105). 

Where I agree with you though is that he tends to be quite secretive on the subject of his ties to the Phantomhive family...

...but then again, isn’t it just when Seb is around? Seb whom he knows is a demon who will one day eat our!Ciel’s soul, so it’s definitely not in UT’s best interests (since he intends to save Ciel) to give Seb too much valuable information about himself. It is or will probably be the same for the Shinigamis who try to get in his way, now that I think about it. 

However, if you remember the Campania arc, when our!Ciel unexpectedly grabbed his chain of lockets, he was shocked but eventually...

...he smiled and let him keep it, as if he didn’t mind Ciel finding out some things about him. 

So the same could probably be said with the scene in ch151: no enemy is present, so that’s probably why UT could relax (not just in this scene, but also when he laid down to read a book while real!Ciel was hard at work) and refer to Frances as a Phantomhive, even half-saying that he has some fond memories about her childhood. :)

TL;DR Just my opinion but I’d say UT couldn’t help himself with the emotion of probably seeing Frances (*cough*his daughter*cough*) for the first time in a while. It’s rather similar to him joking around and then seeing an old picture of Vincent when he was young and alive...

...making him suddenly remember that his body was completely burnt and that he couldn’t see or talk to him anymore.

He’s got feelings, okay. He’s just not always realizing that he’s hurting the very same people he’s trying to protect. :///

Hey! Okk but like... what makes you think Vincent didn’t notice about UT’s lockets (which UT definitely wore, as we could see in ch131)? :)))

It’s not because we never saw him address the subject in the very few flashbacks we had with him (without mentioning we never saw him directly interact with UT at all), that he didn’t actually notice. :)

Depends on what theory you favor about the Undertaker’s link to the P family Anon, but personally, since I think UT might be Cedric K. Ros--, as in: 

he took that identity back when Claudia was alive,

possibly married her (becoming the previous Earl Phantomhive before Vincent) and fathered Vincent and Frances, 

disappeared because of great sorrow after Claudia’s death 

only to come back at least 3 years later as “the Undertaker”, after Vincent was already out of Weston and working with Dee

Well, considering this theory, I personally think it’s not unlikely at all that at least Vincent knew UT wasn’t simply a random mortician who happened to be interested to work as the Watchdog’s evil noble.

I mean, he did say this in the special chapter: 

And while it’s true it can have several meanings, considering that these words come up just when UT gave up his higher-ranked ribbon to try bringing Vincent back, in my opinion I think Vincent’s words were probably mostly directed at UT’s actions. 

As for Frances, it’s definitely harder to be sure but...

...it’s not like she reacted to UT’s words in ch151 either, so in my opinion, she has a good hunch as to what’s up with UT.

In fact, she’s probably our best chance of actually finding out more about UT, since Othello only knew him pre-desertion and I doubt Tanaka will start talking anytime soon (especially since he’s still at the P manor, while Frances could meet with our!Ciel more directly). 

TL;DR as always in Kuro, it’s not because a plot point is not addressed that it’s debunked. Quite the opposite, especially for this topic, considering that on-screen interactions between UT and his possible children are almost non-existent (ch151 is the only example so far and it’s already hinting at a lot). 

In other words, I think Vincent knew something was up with UT (@ his mom), whether or not he noticed the lockets. As for Frances, we don’t know if she reached the same conclusion when Vincent did, but by now, it seems likely that she knows UT’s not some random dude either. 

Hello Anon! Yeah, I get you, it’s not easy to be sure, because there is a little twist to think about to imagine what the timeline is like. 

Anyway, looking at the info we get along with the story, the first one is Klaus’ hypothesis: 

So, from what Klaus knows, Diederich supposedly was Vincent’s first evil noble, because they met during their time at Weston and Vincent became the Watchdog when he was a student at Weston, at 15 years old.

That’s what we know before the Green Witch arc. Then this happened more recently…

…which debunked Klaus’ idea, because UT clearly said he’s been around Vincent & Frances ever since their childhood. 

Now the question remains though: 

was he already known as “the Undertaker” back then?

Or did he become “the Undertaker” after Vincent was already the Watchdog & Diederich Vincent’s associate?

This has yet to be confirmed, but it’d make sense that the latter idea is the correct one, meaning neither what UT, real!Ciel and Klaus were saying was wrong. 

In other words, maybe Dee really was Vincent’s first associate because “the Undertaker” became Vincent’s associate afterwards, because “the Undertaker” didn’t exist before Vincent’s time as the Watchdog, because UT had another identity during Vincent’s & Frances’ childhood.

After all, the story does emphasize on acting on behalf of the identity you’ve taken for yourself and UT is clearly handling quite perfectly the different roles he’s been taking so far (as a super serious & skilled Shinigami, as a mortician/info broker/autopsy performer, as a life-after-death researcher, as Weston’s Principal, etc), implying there might be more roles he used to have that we don’t know about yet. 

So now all that’s left to know is whether or not he once was called “Cedric K. Ros-” and, if so, what role exactly he was meant to have along with this identity (Claudia’s evil noble, her husband “Earl Phantomhive”, idk? etc). 

I hope I kinda managed to explain, but sorry if that makes it harder to get. ^^“

Hello Anon! :) Ah, well to be very honest ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ it’s totally up in the air. xD

I mean, this chapter is a mess to try and figure things out on this aspect, because look:

I think there are two ways to interpret this exchange. 

Frances tried to pretend that she knew UT because of Vincent’s days as the Watchdog when UT somehow wanted everyone to know that it went back to Claudia’s days

Frances said that UT is “the same as when Vincent was alive”, possibly implying that he just wasn’t “the Undertaker” yet when Claudia was the Watchdog, not that she didn’t know him.

The former possibility implies that Frances maybe just didn’t want real!Ciel to know that UT’s link to the P family indeed goes further back than Vincent, since the boy himself didn’t seem to know (remember that the boys apparently know nothing about their grandmother and there is probably a reason for that). EDIT: more here.

The latter possibility goes with my older ideas that UT went from… 

“Shinigami #136649″ (pre-desertion) 

to possibly “Cedric K. Ros” (post-desertion) 

to “the Undertaker” (post Claudia’s death) 

…and, as a result, neither Frances nor UT are lying because UT simply wasn’t “the Undertaker” before Vincent’s time.

Both possibilities are interesting for different reasons in my opinion but, either way, we can be sure that UT has 0 reason to be bullshitting on what he said. So if he said that he was around since basically Frances’ birth, then that’s most likely true, whether he was already called “the Undertaker” back then or not yet. 

The chapter doesn’t stop there with interesting hints though and that’s why it’s a mess. At some point UT also says…

and this is where I can’t figure out whether he’s lying or not. 

One theory of mine about UT is that at some point he possibly was an aristocrat (maybe that’s simply who “Cedric K. Ros” was supposed to be, as Claudia’s evil noble), but other fans even went as far as to propose that maybe he did marry Claudia and act as Earl Phantomhive, until Vincent inherited both titles and he became UT.

But see, if he “doesn’t have the slightest knowledge or interest in managing an estate”… 

either that means that indeed, as “the Undertaker”, he has 0 interest or knowledge in the matter

or that he truly never had to do such a thing and therefore we can kiss goodbye to the nobleman!UT theories

or it could also mean that, just like for the butler thing, he intends to remain neutral in this brotherly feud and so, if our!Ciel managed to rule the estate on his own, then real!Ciel gotta prove that he can do the same. 

Either way, it’s no big deal because these are just theories, but it’s to say that this panel is not helping with when UT became “the Undertaker” and, therefore, with what was the explanation behind the exchange between him and Frances.

Final (but important) point, we know that UT can play roles, which is why I’m wondering about all of this in the first place (I don’t digress for no reason lmao). We got the proof of that with the Weston arc…

…where he held his role of The Principal perfectly up until the moment Ciel called him out. 

Additionally, thanks to Othello, we know he was a very different person when he was Shinigami #136649…

… but once again a very serious and skilled one. 

Same for him as “the Undertaker”, he’s seen as the best informant and autopsy performer the Watchdogs could have hoped for. And I’m sure Ryan would have called him the best research partner. As for this:

…well sure, as “the Undertaker”, he can’t pretend to be a butler at the same time, but since this man is perfect in whatever roles he chooses to take on, I’m sure he could be a very skilled butler if he put his mind into it. 

Anyway my point is, whatever identity UT had at the time of Claudia’s days as the Watchdog, he would have held up his role perfectly just like in every other examples so far, including managing an estate as a nobleman if that was what was expected of him/what he wanted to do (since I still believe hints go towards this idea more than him being her butler). 

In fact, I think UT being able to play many roles quite well also implies that he didn’t go from deserting Shinigami to the Undertaker on the spot: he must have adjusted his character (literally) several times to his situation and to his personal goals/wishes over time, after his desertion.

That’s what being the Clown type means more often than not anyway and it’s kinda fitting also because the narrative does emphasize on acting on behalf of the identity you’ve taken for yourself (i.e our!Ciel being a great Earl & a great businessman after he modeled “Earl Ciel Phantomhive” to his image despite initially choosing this identity because of survivor’s guilt 4 years ago, or even Seb and his aesthetic as “one hell of a butler”, etc).

TL;DR Sorry I digressed Anon, but my personal opinion is that no matter when UT became “the Undertaker”, he and Frances have indeed known each other ever since her childhood and they both know it’s true (otherwise she’d have had a surprised reaction after hearing him said that, if she truly didn’t know him before Vincent’s time). 

Whether Frances tried to “hide” that fact because she doesn’t want real!Ciel to ask about his grandmother somehow, or because UT simply had a different identity back then and she was just implying this, that however I don’t know. 

As for whether UT is Cedric or not, does Frances even know he might be her dad, does he know that he might be her and Vincent’s dad…… it’s still a mystery. :))

One thing you can take from this chapter and one only: no matter if he’s Cedric or not, UT apparently sees Frances as Claudia’s little girl, thus she’s most likely another Phantomhive he wouldn’t want to lose.