Marc Guggenheim SDCC17 Interview
Marc Guggenheim was kind enough to meet with me for a one on one chat.
We walked the floor together with his nephew and little girl (who are the cutest) for an hour and talked all things Arrow!!! He told me this is his most aggressive SDCC schedule ever, so the fact that he slotted in some time just for me really meant the world. Marc Guggenheim is the actual best. He is the definition of it.
SPOILERS!!!
We launched right into number one on my list: wedding.
He wondered where people got the idea for an Olicity crossover wedding to which I answered, “Ummm... a little bit from Stephen.”
He laughed and said, “But Stephen doesn't know what we're doing for the crossover. We haven't pitched him the crossover yet.”
I fessed up, “And... a lot from me.”
I launched into my Nashville story about my daughter and how she dressed up as little Felicity.
Marc said, “Oh my gosh. That was YOUR daughter? I didn't know that was your daughter! Oh that is hysterical.”
I explained Stephen tends to crumble quick with little Felicitys and Marc wholeheartedly agreed. My daughter asked Stephen if we have to wait all season for Olicity to get married. Stephen immediately caved and said no.
Marc laughed again and said, “But that's such a leading question! That's not playing fair!”
Yeah. I know. It's dirty pool. I own it.
Marc admitted Season 6 is the hardest season to talk about. He compared it to the Walking Dead's problem last year. They are shooting 6x02 and they are writing 6x04. They are breaking 6x05 and 6x06, which will be a two parter, and they are already starting to talk about the crossover. Marc confirmed Dinah Drake survives because “we're not going to kill three canaries in a row.”
We shifted into Season 5, since Season 6 is so difficult for them to tease right now. Now that the Olicity break up arc is completed I asked Marc if they accomplished what they set out to do.
Marc said, “You know what? I do. I feel really good about 5x20. Every season I have the things I like and things I wish we did better. I was pretty honest in Season 4 that I didn't love how we handled their break up. For me, the way we handled their break up... they didn't have an adult conversation. So we went into Season 5... it was like we need to figure out a way for them to have that adult conversation and deal with their issues. I was pretty happy with the way that turned out.”
Marc continued, “Stephen and Emily were terrific in the episode. Wendy Stanzler directed the hell out of it.”
He discussed how difficult it is for a director to come in and direct a bottle episode. Bottle episodes are typically a way for television shows to lower their production costs. “The really good directors like Wendy embrace the creative challenge of, 'Well how do I get that production value while still operating with less resources?'”
I asked Marc how he felt about the length of time it took Olicity to get to 5x20.
He said, “Here's the thing that I was interested in doing as a writer. I haven't really seen this on television – I'm sure it's been done on television, but I haven't necessarily seen it. I like the idea of you have a couple, they are engaged to be married, they break up and they are still in each other's lives. In this case they are working together. I hadn't seen that and the ins and outs of that. I thought that was really interesting. As a writer I am always gravitating towards and attracted to stories I haven't seen, but still reflect a real life dynamic. There are plenty of people who break up and, for whatever reason (be it kids, work, mutual friends, whatever it is) they have to be in each other's lives. And that's hard. That's an interesting dynamic.”
I asked Marc if Felicity's dark arc was planned for Season 4. He said no, it was always planned for Season 5. They discovered as they explored the Helix arc that it was “a great way to address the 4x15 of it all.”
“We realized, 'Oh wait a second, this darker storyline means she's walking in Oliver's shoes and that's going to give her a new perspective on him.' Once we sort of realized that it all sort of fit together.”
I added I felt like Oliver learned what it's like being left out of the decision and not being in control of someone's choices. Marc answered with an emphatic YES.
“I always say that Oliver is a total hypocrite. A lot of the show survives and is successful for all the hypocritical choices Oliver makes. That said, I will say this about Season 6 - I think the events of Season 5 have really changed him and he's a much more evolved character in Season 6.”
I asked if we'll be seeing Oliver more centered and Marc explained, “Yeah, that's really what Season 5 was all about - letting go of the past, learning from the past and the previous ten years. So the emotional stories that we are telling in Season 6 are of a very different quality.”
He continued, “In many ways, I think Oliver (it's not so much that he takes on a mentor role), but there's always a scene in Act 4, usually where Oliver is dealing with something, and Felicity gives him a piece of advice or Diggle gives him a piece of advice or Thea or Lance. There's always people giving Oliver advice. In Season 6 we are trying to flip that dynamic. It's Oliver giving people advice because he finally has the benefit of 10 years of hard won experience.”
I added, “He's starting to get it,” and Marc enthusiastically agreed.
We shifted gears a bit and went back to discussing Season 6. Marc said, “The struggle for me is finding new ways to surprise people. I'll give you an example – in Season 6 we obviously know the island blew up and everyone was on it. Everyone is just thinking about who lives or dies. There's other stuff that comes with that.”
I offered up injuries or PTSD as examples, to which Marc mysteriously replied, “Or all sorts of interesting things.” Intriguing...
Marc's goal is try and defy expectations by giving a twist to the expected. He said one of his favorite quotes is from Stan Lee,“Give people what they need. Not what they want.”
He added, “If you give people what they want they are not surprised and they get bored very quickly. There's something actually very unsatisfying getting everything that you want as a viewer.”
My amazing editor Jenn gave me a wonderful question to ask Marc, “What do you think defines a strong female character?”
Marc answered, “Oooh. That's a good question. Yes. I'll be honest. I find answering questions along these lines, as a straight white man, is flirting with disaster. I will say that as the father of two daughters and the husband of a very strong and successful woman, I really kind of approach it as – I don't think of it as a strong female character. I approach it as a strong character.” While he obviously understands the difference between a man and a woman, when it comes to writing there's no differentiation.
He discussed Felicity as an example of a strong female character, “Felicity as a character has really grown and evolved over the years. When we first met her she was easily distracted and a little neurotic. I think she's grown tougher over the years by virtue of what they do.”
I added that Oliver has grown a little softer and Marc replied, “Yes definitely. I think they've had a good effect on each other. She humanizes him and she's gotten more of a sense of self.”
“A confidence?” I asked. Marc said, “Yes. Also I think it's a maturity thing. When we first met Felicity she was five years younger. That's a big difference in anyone's life... hopefully.”
He continued, “I think with all the female characters on the show they are all strong, but in very different ways. Sara Lance is super strong, but very different from Felicity. Felicity is light and Sara has an incredible darkness in her, but they are both really strong women. Nyssa is incredibly strong, but she has a different form of darkness than Sara's. I actually think Nyssa and Sara's darknesses compliment each other in a really complex and interesting way.”
I immediately asked if Nyssa would guest on Legends of Tomorrow. Marc answered, “I always want to get Nyssa with Sara because I ship them very hard, but that said, we really want to explore some new romantic territory for Sara this year. Anytime you can get Caity and Katrina on screen together it's gold, but at the same time- ”
“Katrina is hard to get ahold of,” I offered.
Marc agreed, “Yes, she is hard to get ahold of especially since she has the new Crackle show. Katrina is amazing. She's always gonna work. What's nice about Legends is we have time travel. We've had her on the show before and we'd love to have her again. It's always a question about finding the right opportunity with the right story.”
I asked Marc how he felt about some of the fans' reactions to Season 5, specifically the frustration and anger with Oliver and Felicity's storyline.
“You know, that's a good question actually. It was hard at the beginning of the year. I think over the course of this past season I developed a different perspective on reactions to the show. If I'm thinking about it - it was probably more the reaction to Season 4 that had me go, 'I need to not take this personally.' This is the story we are telling. I believe in this story we are telling otherwise we wouldn't be telling it. Some people are going to like it and some are not going to like it.”
I asked, “When you say that they changed your mind was it how you guys broke them up? Was it the storyline? Because I felt like the William storyline was kind of a holdover from the Laurel days. That would have worked great if she was still the love interest, but with Felicity it didn't feel quite as true to them.”
“I think for me it was purely I wish we had taken the time to devolve their relationship in a more organic way. I've said this before, but we went into Season 4 with certain tent poles and we were too diligent in terms of hitting them. As a result very key emotional moves were rushed and felt abrupt. That I own,” Marc explained.
This is something I've written about frequently on the blog, so I shared my perspective with Marc and said, “My attitude was if you have to break them up, which you know I am not of that opinion that you have to break them up -”
“Oh I know,” Marc interjected. I may have shared my disagreement with him in the past once or twice. ;)
I smiled and continued, “But if you have to break them up, I ran through a list. At the stage they were at, you are really at cheating, killing, lying or stealing. Out of those options, I'm gonna go with the lie.”
“Yes, exactly.”
Shifting back to Season 6 I said, “So, we know Oliver is alive...”
“And we know William is alive,” Marc added.
“So how is Oliver handling being a father?
Marc answered, “Ever since we introduced the William storyline in 2x20, we have noticed that ever since Stephen became a father it has really changed his performance. We always say we write towards what we're seeing in dailies. And Jack, who plays William, is really really good.”
“Was Black Siren on the island?” I legit couldn't remember.
Marc said, “Yes she is, but we know she survives. We wouldn't bring Katie back just to kill her again.”
I said, “That would be a serious jerk move if that's what you did.” Marc laughed and agreed.
I told him that I love Black Siren evil and he agreed with my sentiment. I explained, “What I like about Black Siren is that she's evil, but you guys do a nice job threading the undercurrent that she's having an emotional reaction to Lance -
Marc interrupted, “Wait until you see the premiere.”
“Is it awesome? What are you most excited for everyone to see? Because Bam is directing and I'm so excited.”
“Bam is crushing it. We're gonna release a trailer tomorrow that gives you a glimpse of some of the amazing stuff that Bam has shot. It's crazy huge. It's total madness,” Marc said.
I told Marc that Stephen and David were doing a phenomenal job with getting the fans whipped up for the new season at the conventions. We discussed their natural chemistry and how great they are together. The word “chemistry” trigged the newbies in my mind so I asked, “There was a lot of new characters. So how did you feel about the reaction to the new characters? What new character was easiest to slip in? Who was the most difficult?
Marc answered, “They were all the same level of difficulty or easiness. What's always the hardest is the casting. We were four for four. The original plan with the newbies was very different. The original plan was we were going to cycle a whole bunch of newbies throughout the season. And then we'll keep whoever pops.”
This totally surprised me and I said it sounded similar to the rotating Season 1 love interests. Arrow rotated many women throughout the season to see who worked best with Oliver (Felicity). Marc agreed and said much to their surprise each new cast member was great. They didn't want to get rid of anybody.
I said my favorite newbie is Julianna. Marc agreed she is phenomenal and said we've only glimpsed what she's capable of as an actor. This will be her break out year. I did ask if Dinah's love interest was someone we knew or someone new, but Marc couldn't answer that. Gave it my best shot! Sorry folks! We'll just have to tune in to find out.
“Are you releasing the Big Bads tomorrow?”
Marc hesitated, “Yes – some of it. We're going to do something a little different this year in terms of the Big Bads.”
Hmmm... mysterious. Panel should be interesting! I asked if they felt more freedom in the writers room now that they don't have to serve the flashback stories.
“Yeah, it's such a sigh of relief. Those flashbacks were hard. They were hard from a writing perspective. They were hard from a production perspective. It really was like doing one and a half shows. And also some of our favorite episodes have been the ones where we did the non serialized flashbacks.
I pointed out 3x05 as an example and Marc added 5x13 with Wild Dog as another. I told him I didn't click with Wild Dog right away, but that episode did help in fleshing out the character for me.
“Wild Dog grew on people,” Marc said.
“Yeah, it was sort of all of sudden. I realized I was starting to like him. I think you were very wise with pairing him with Curtis and Lance,” I responded.
Marc said it was one of the great surprises of the season, “We really do write to the dailies and we were seeing this great stuff between Rick and Paul. Let's write more of that! We were joking by the end of the season that we had the makings for a spin off. Like an odd couple type of comedy.”
I asked if mixing up the characters, like more Felicity and Thea, was something they were going to continue in Season 6? Marc said yes. He loves mixing up the pairings.
“5A was a lot of focus on the newbies,” I said. Marc agreed and I added, “It did feel like the core characters we are use to were not getting as much screen time. But once you guys set the newbies up, they really did move into a B storyline capacity. Then you shifted back to Felicity, Diggle and Oliver. “
“I will say I think 6B will be very different from 6A. I don't know if this plan will come to fruition but we really shaping Season 6 as A, B and C. It's really three big movements. We always go into it with a plan. Sometimes we stick to it to a fault.”
“There's stuff I love every season and stuff I don't. That's just Arrow... and every television show on TV,” I said.
Marc exclaimed, “It's 23 episodes!”
I agreed, “I do think that's a some of it. Listen, I loved Whedon. He writes amazing tv, but there's some hours in there that were not so good.
“And that's one of the best writers who ever worked in the medium,” Marc added.
I explained that I accept Arrow is going to try new things and sometimes they aren't going to work. Marc said they always go in with the best of intentions though. Once a show has reached a certain number of seasons, there can be a tendency to phone it in. I appreciated that Arrow hasn't done that. At least from my perspective.
Marc said, “There is a huge temptation to be like 'Oh it's Season 6.' There's also a huge temptation to say, 'It's 23 episodes. They are not all going to be good.' But we still try to make every episode good.”
Marc reiterated again that there will not be a Bl&ck Siren, Oliver and Felicity love triangle. A love triangle does not remotely interest him. He agreed they settled on Oliver's great love in Season 2 and it is Felicity.
It should be an interesting panel since they seem to be sticking to this, “Who survived?” concept. I do think one of the better moves from Season 5 was cutting back on the spoilers. There was too much spoiled in Season 4 and I think Season 5 struck a better balance. So, I wasn't bothered by the more vague teases for Season 6. Also... David and Stephen have spoiled just plenty. I am very happy with what Marc shared about Season 6 and it was really nice to talk about Season 5 more in depth. I’m sure there are more goodies in Saturday’s panel too. I can’t wait for the preview. Season 6 is sounding pretty fantastic to me!
I honestly cannot say enough nice things about this man. He is warm, funny, gracious and earnest. Marc genuinely cares about Arrow and the fans. He humbly admits not everything they try is successful, but he truly wants to make the best television show he can. He gave such thoughtful answers to all my questions and was equally interested in my thoughts. Marc is as invested in these characters as I am, which is why it's always so much fun to chat with him. He is an absolute delight.
If you are upset I didn't ask your question or phrase your viewpoint correctly... well that's not a shock because I don't speak for everyone. These were my questions and my perspective based on my interests in Arrow. That's all I can offer. I tried to ask as many questions as I could on a wide variety of topics. I hope you all enjoy the chat as much as I did!
