#hungryallday

Its funny we say that ja//une is miles self insert, because just like ja//une miles also took a position that would require him to do (write) things he was not ready to do (write) yet. And just like ja//une he even admits to this folly (to a certain degree). And, just like ja//une he too doesnt seem to be taking active decisions that would help improve the current state (of the shows writing)

The only thing funny is that if Jaune IS a self insert, then he’s an example of a self-insert done RIGHT and thus, you look like an idiot for saying he’s a bad writing decision when the other option is one of THE MOST REVILED WRITING DESCSIONS IN LITERARY HISTORY.

Let’s go down the list, shall we? (Considering in this context, Mary Sue and self insert are the same thing)

http://sci-frey.livejournal.com/8706.html

1) The Mary Sue character exists for the Suethor's wish fulfillment. The Sue looks like the author wishes she looked, acts like the way she wishes she could, says what the author wishes she could say, and creates an environment within the canon in which things that the Suethor wishes would have happened in the canon, does. Â The Mary Sue is sometimes the gender or sexual orientation which the author wishes (s)he was, or feels is fashionable.

Miles and Jaune don’t look anything alike and Jaune isn’t even that attractive looking. Miles has called Jaune out for not acting the way Jaune should act, Jaune has spoken out once in the series and the story (AKA Miles) portrayed him as wrong with the person he was calling out and the environment was planned by Monty, not Miles. Not to mention that Kerry and Grey also make the environment so it can’t be solely Miles’ creation. So no dice on the first point.

2) There is a sense or tone of whimsy and /or self depreciation in the text.

Most Mary Sue characters are written to be "competent. But not too competent; she’s still a little girl inside, and there’s a sense that at least some of what she accomplishes is done by accident or luck (Pflieger 11). Suethors experimenting with wish fulfilment don’t often also experiment in agency and therefore introduce chance to further the plot, which lends an air of the narrative pressing forward despite the Mary Sue character, rather than because of it.

Right here the accusation falls apart as well: Jaune can only be called competent as a leader and tactician. But as a solo fighter: He gets crotch-shotted, bitch slapped and punted. And that was only in Volume 4. And this further decays as while the tone of these can be whacky, context prevents it from being fully whacky because Jaune doesn’t like this. He is not okay with being treated like this by the world and it actually makes his situation funny in a “haha, look at his misery” way. Similar to Sokka from Avatar The Last Airbender.

And the number of times the narrative is pushed forward by Jaune? 0. The number of times the narrative is pushed forward by chance benefitting Jaune? Also0.

3) The Mary Sue’s appearance, personality, and even scent are often divulged in detail within the exposition of the story; Mary Sues often have physical traits that are a biological impossibility, such as eyes that are violet or shift colour, pointed ears, the limbs or ears of an animal, or hair colour that is not within the normal spectrum of shades.

Jaune’s appearance is not  biologically impossible: In fact, Jaune is the ONLY character who looks realistic, it’s everyone else who is biologically impossible. By the very definition above. Nobody makes a note of his personality except Jaune himself one time (and that kind of reveal is common in fiction)

3) The Mary Sue often was given a name with a hidden or relevant meaning, or that simply “sounds cool”, with no regard for ethnic tradition or likelihood.

Again, this goes for everyone EXCEPT Jaune: He at least has a plausible name and it is very much incontext for ethnics and likelihood in RWBY. Everyone else has the fancy names.

4) The Mary Sue is a character either previously unrecognized by the fandom's central protagonists and antagonists before the commencement of the story, or drops in from 'reality' into the fandom.

Jaune was introduced at the FIRST episode so this is impossible.

5) The Mary Sues’ abilities / magical powers / skills / talents not only outdo the canonical characters (even if, or especially if, the canonical characters are the most powerful / talented / skilled at this particular ability) but often eclipse them. The Mary Sue directly copies the skill and is better at it. The Mary Sue is adept at any sort of fighting or magic wielded by the canonical characters, often surpassing the canonical characters in ability with little to no practice or previous experience.

Jaune doesn’t have any skills that outdo any canonical character’s. In fact, Jaune LACKS a special ability that the other characters have. And he is nowhere near close to surpassing anyone in canon. You can try to argue he surpasses Ruby as a strategist...but looking it up, that’s only because people get strategist and tactician mixed up and Jaune is the latter so that’s not even correct.

6) The Mary Sue is immediately accepted into the canonical character's inner circle of friends and confidants, no matter how unsociable or closely guarded said circle of friends is in the canon.

6.5) If the Mary Sue is related to a major character that is not the romantic interest, then said relation is often used as a haphazard excuse to introduce the Sue to the canonical characters/ future romantic interest.

Actually, Jaune was introduced BEFORE the group of friends where established and the inner circle still consists of Ruby, Weiss, Blake and Yang. Nor is he related to anyone so this is yet ANOTHER critera he fails to meet.

7) The Mary Sue acquires friends or romantic interests / partners among the canon characters, blocking or disrupting the canonical friendships, partnerships and romantic relationships within the canon.

Jaune does not stop the main team from interacting with anyone except one time that Weiss tried “befriending” Pyrrha and he doesn’t stop any relationships.

8) The surrounding canon characters are made to act out of character by the Mary Sue’s presence.

Pflieger points out that this is called, by most fan craft readers, “character rape” (Pflieger 6), and occurs because character’s personalities have developed in relation to only those characters that exist within the show. In adding an unknown quantity, the chemistry of the ensemble must change. Some mistakes in out-of-character instances, however, could also be traced back to the Suethor’s neophyte writer status, in that she has yet to master the subtly of writing that allows a character to remain in character, even when written by an outside party like a fan crafter.

Yeah, Jaune doesn’t cause anyone to act out of character.

9) The Mary Sue robs the strong female characters of their rational agency, turning them into catty bitches.

Again, this could be traced to the Suethor’s newness to crafting, but also to the feminine inclination for competitiveness. Strong, capable female characters threaten the Mary Sue’s agency, importance, and place in her beloved’s heart and therefore they must be removed or made undesirable. Teenage girls, the primary bulk of Suethors, are also living in a phase of life where all women are potential competition and bullying is a fact of life; all girls feel persecuted, and the existence of a character that could challenge a Mary Sue’s ability to form relationships with the desired characters / romantic target, is therefore a potential threat and must be neutralized via changing their characterization

Because the person in question would relate to their corresponding gender, but RWBY doesn’t have enough prominent male characters to do this: I will argue still for the female characters.

Jaune doesn’t stop anyone from forming relationships in canon, excluding one time with Pyrrha and Weiss (since that was, in fact, an attempt by Weiss to try and use Pyrrha.) Nor does he stop anyone from making their own decisions: When Pyrrha wanted to become the Fall Maiden, she did so without ever talking or thinking about Jaune. And when she does mention it, Jaune encourages her. You may argue he takes away Ruby’s agency, but then I argue he wasn’t involved in Ruby’s plotlines enough in Volumes 1-3 to interfere and in Volume 4, Ruby has actually taken away Jaune’s agency as he only has one or two scenes where he is the focus (the armor scene and the brief scene with Qrow) whereas the training video scene was built up by Ruby, framed by Ruby’s point of view, we learn nothing new about Jaune and learned something new about Ruby. And in Kuroyuri, we have Ruby about to blame herself and instead Jaune pushes aside and devalues his suffering (the one thing he gained in the Volume) to make Ruby look and feel better. Ergo, this point he also fails.

10) The Mary Sue is sexually attractive to all canon characters, regardless of their sexual orientation or availability.

Jaune is noted to be attractive by ONE character in the entire series up to Volume 4: His love interest. So no dice here.

11) The Mary Sue is often ardently desired by the villain despite there being no advantage or reason for the villain to want said Mary Sue.

Neither Roman, Cinder or Salem give a shit about Jaune and all I could gather from Tyrian being interested in Jaune is that he might want to rape him. Nowhere near this point.

12) The Mary Sue is often the reason for the main conflict in the plot, whether inadvertently or as a central figure. Â Any special destiny, quest, or plot arc possessed by the central character of the canon is often usurped by the Mary Sue.

Jaune causes no impact on the main conflict of RWBY. The plot never concerns him and he is usually the focus of or integral to CHARACTER arcs, not plot arcs.

13) The Mary Sue is witty and snarkish, and no matter how lame said witticisms are, the canonical characters akin the Sue's sense of humour to that which is quite practiced and enjoyable.

Jaune has not made any snarky or witty banter except for one time in Volume 3...and that was self deprication at his expense. And no one found it funny in-universe.

14) The Mary Sue is often able to shift shapes, or has a friend or magical pet that can shift shapes.

... NEXT!

15) As the Mary Sue is the author’s avatar, the Mary Sue enters the world of canon with the same understanding of character, plot, and universe as the Suethor; the Mary Sue therefore has incredible insight into the lives and workings, the desires and dreams and fears, of the characters with which she is interacting and often serves as a conduit for advice that the Suethor wishes to impart on the characters.  The Mary Sue ‘understands everything’. The advice considered, the canon characters often behaviour is often altered to accommodate the Suethor’s desired changes.

16) The Mary Sue has a tragic past that proceeds the story, or something traumatic and mentally scarring occurs mid-story that they 'get over' cheerily, suffering neither post-traumatic stress, Stockholm syndrome, or other disorders or phobias brought on by their past experiences. Any scars or marks that result from the trauma are 'cool', or are interesting places or shapes, and are often aesthetically tasteful. Sues are rarely ashamed by said scars or marks, or associate them only lightly with the trauma.

16.5) Mary Sues mope, brood, or pout, but only for as long as it takes for the canonical characters to distract her. Long-term guilt or pain is rare in a Sue.

1. He has no idea of the plot, no idea who characters are until they are introduced and actually has LESS of an idea of the universe than the other chaarcters. Jaune didn't understand what Aura is or what a Semblence is. So no dice here.

2. Jaune actually has a less tragic backstory than everyone else. While his parent may have not believed in him, it’s not as sad as Ruby and Yang or Blake or Weiss or Pyrrha or Ren and Nora. And Jaune is actually VERY ashamed that his family had no faith in him and it is not made to make Jaune look cool.

3. ... Volume 4 and Pyrrha. That is all I need to say.

17) The Mary Sue is the centre of the plot, the key player in any battle, and is the only one who can 'save the day' by virtue of her wonderfulness.

17.5) And in doing so, the Mary Sue ‘ties up loose ends’, filling in plot holes from canon, getting characters who the Suethor believes are romantically destined for one another together, or forces an ending to the major plot arc from canon in a satisfying (to the Suethor) and happy way.

1. Jaune is usually the type to act from the sidelines and assist while when he does fight directly against any non-Mook opponent: He gets hit in the crotch, chased, bitch slapped or punted. So nope here as well.

2. Yeah...Jaune does none of this: This is the work or either Qrow or Salem.

18) Somehow the Mary Sue character 'saves the day' in unlikely ways that leave the canon characters stunned and amazed, often at the cost of her own life / health / magic powers / happiness / love / ability to stay with the characters or in the fandom.

Do I seriously have to bring up the numerous ways Jaune gets made a fool of in fights? Or how about he has won one big battle in his life against the Ursa Major?

19) Yet somehow there is a happily ever after wherein the Sue and the Love Interest are reunited, often affirming their relationship through marriage and procreation, therefore supporting the patriarchal hegemony that a powerful female character like a Mary Sue could otherwise challenge.

19.5) Unless the Mary Sue dies, in which case her death is tragic, meaningful, beautiful, and offers the characters that the Suethor is most directly interested from the canon a lesson / morale / momento to take with them.

...A. They are never getting back together.

B. That’s a common trope known as the Tragic Keepsake.

And that was literally the ONE check that Jaune gets where he is a Mary Sue. The others he defies or outright contradicts. So in this case, jaune cannot be a Mary Sue.

But why is he called a Mary Sue still?

Easy

(http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue) First example under “Intereptations of a Mary Sue) it says this:

An alarmingly widespread use of the term, and one reason a lot of people feel that the term has lost whatever useful meaning it once had. There are a lot of reasons why this usage is so common. Most obviously, as rants about and mockery of the Mary Sue phenomenon became increasingly well-known in fandom, it became increasingly easy to throw the term around as Flame Bait. The fact that so many of the other definitions are highly subjective doesn't help.

People who accuse characters of being Mary Sues rarely admit that this is the definition they're using. The best way to tell is if their justifications for the character's Sue-hood are all based on shoehorning, Alternate Character Interpretation, misrepresenting the sources, and Accentuate the Negative. Describe any non-fanfic character as a Canon Sue, and you'll be lucky if no one accuses you of using this definition of the term.