#greenqueenasks

The real question is whether Alicent still believes it's possible to save everyone. Alicent has spent her entire life understanding love through sacrifice. Whenever she's confronted with an impossible choice, it's as if she asks herself, "What must I give up to keep everyone safe?" That's been the pattern of her entire life. She gave up her home and family in Oldtown to be with Otto, her youth to Viserys, her body to childbearing, her son's eye to vengeance, her personal desires to those of the realm, etc. She internalizes that logic so completely that she begins to apply it to herself ("The gods punish me"). Throughout S2, Alicent has watched everything she tried to preserve collapse around her. Aegon is broken in body and spirit, Aemond has slipped beyond her influence, Otto is gone, the Green Council no longer listens to her, thousands have already died, and the realm is in peril. When she eventually goes to Dragonstone at the end of S2, Alicent has been stripped of her idealism and no longer believes she can save every member of her family. She's now only trying to prevent the annihilation of all of them. From her perspective, the alternatives aren't "save Aegon or sacrifice Aegon." They're "lose one child or lose them all."

Hi anon 💚

Yes, this is what's mentioned in Fire & Blood:

I saw that and I’m still trying to process it. I don’t want to get too emotionally invested in it before I actually watch the scene, but I’m starting to have my own theories now about the showrunners’ attempt to “redeem” Alicent this season by having her -you guessed it- go through more suffering/humiliation.

It’s almost as though our disapproval of how they altered the narrative by choosing to portray b&c last year as a direct consequence of Alicent’s “sullying” behavior didn’t teach them anything. The only way they can “explain” or “ameliorate” Alicent’s character is by having her be an abuse victim every season and/or blaming her for it, which makes the reading of her very flat. Alicent is much more complex than what we’ve been seeing lately, which is a little disappointing to me, but hey, I’m still going to try my best to analyze the heck out of the mess we see and read between the lines to strike the balance for a version of Alicent that feels more like herself.

Art by Douglas Wheatley

You are spot on! I think she parallels show!Alicent too.

(1) Both Mahidevran and Alicent have a very complicated and self-sacrificing but equally co-dependent relationship with their son(s). They both give birth to their grief and pain and trauma and place all their hopes and dreams on them. Mahidevran doesn't exist without Mustafa, and we see that her life comes to mean very little when he is executed. In a similar way, Alicent lives for Aegon (I have this theory that l've analyzed before of how Aegon is her favorite child and the one who mirrors her the most) and tries everything within her power to see him crowned. Similarly, Mahidevran schemes and conspires with Ibrahim and her allies to see Mustafa ascend the throne

(2) Character-wise, Mahidevran plays by the rules, just like Alicent. She is Valide's favorite, she is trained by her, she is Hatice's companion, an overall good Muslim girl married to the Sultan, tasked with giving him sons. Alicent is a devout follower of the Seven, she's trained by her father to always heed his counsel, her motto is duty and sacrifice, and she is married off to Viserys and tasked with birthing the long-awaited male Targaryen heirs the realm needs. Neither of them is loved by their husbands: they are always the "second choice," the "spare wife" if you will, who is tolerated in the harem or accepted in marriage because of necessity.

(3) They are both sidelined and defied by a woman who dares challenge the norms: Hürrem and Rhaenyra, respectively. In trying to secure their position and that of their sons and to survive in the patriarchal society they live in, which allows limited political freedom, they become callous and ruthless. Show!Mahidevran orders the assassination of Sehzade Mehmet, and book!Alicent tortures and murders Blood, and is overall more unhinged than show!Alicent.

Jasper Tudor was the uncle of Henry VII, an important member of Tudor faction like Criston was of Targtowers. Criston was the kingmaker and a trusted confidant of the greens. Maggy and Jasper in the white princess mirror book Alicent and Criston. Mutual respect and courtly love bound by common enemy and goal. And they both succeeded albeit for a short time.

Maggy and Jasper walked so Alicole could run!

Heyyy thanks so much! I'm glad you liked it 💚

I think you are right about Criston and Alicent mirroring Jasper and Margaret's relationship in the book, but also in the show. I still can't get over how many times Margaret and Jasper referred to Henry VII as "our son" and "our child" in The White Queen/The White Princess. It's insane that Henry VII saw Jasper as his real father, the only father he'd ever known who took care of him and taught him everything he needed to know to be King. All these scenes are reminiscent of Criston training Aegon and Aemond with the sword, all his "fatherly" moments when looking for Aegon all over KL with Aemond in tow, his overprotectiveness over Alicent and the kids at Driftmark, standing beside Aegon at his coronation, and then how he blames himself for B&C in S2 and how he goes after a burned Aegon to return all that's left of him back to Alicent. Criston is the father of Alicent's kids because he was there to see them grow up, he spent time with them, bonded with them, and undoubtedly, they look up to him as a father figure.

And then there's Henry's side-eye and his hostility towards his mother Margaret after he realizes that she and his uncle Jasper harbor feelings for each other. He openly confronts her about it, reminds her that she is married, and then marries Jasper off to Catherine Woodville to keep both of them in check and spite his mom. It is later revealed that Margaret and Jasper had a fling in the past and remained secretive about it for decades, and Criston and Alicent secretly pursue their relationship in S2. I mean, if ever Aegon, or Aemond (or maybe Daeron) find out about it, their reaction could be similar to Henry's (which will make the parallels all the more juicy).

also the argument that they perpetuate patriarchy is so tone deaf in AsoIaF context?? every woman in-universe perpetuated patriarchy in some way or other because they were raised that way and had little choice. women like visenya, alyssa, even alysanne, rhaenyra, cersei, lyanna perpetuated the existing westerosi norms knowingly or unknowingly, and sometimes went beyond.

not every woman can wield sword and fight or WANT TO wield a sword, wear pants or fight. if women like sansa are interested in feminine pursuits what is wrong with that? if women like alicent are inclined to be female politicians without lifting a weapon, whats wrong with that? if women like catelyn can verbally and physically defend their family and still be soft and motherly whats wrong in that? if women like elia do their duties with diligence and delicacy, and expect loyalty and protection in return, whats wrong with that? if women like naerys and rhaella were sexually abused by their husbands IS THE FAULT WITH THEM?? it was not easy being a feminine woman in this world either. as the lady of a house, they had hundreds of things to oversee. to undermine that as women because they didnt rebel for the sake of it, is so wrong on so many levels.

Hi anon💚

You are right, traditional feminine women in media seldom get any recognition or sympathy and understanding from the viewers. I think it has to do with the prevalence of "girlboss" characters in media who at times stretch the norms to an unrealistic degree. There's nothing wrong with girlboss characters, as there shouldn't be anything wrong with traditional feminine women. Representation matters, context matters, how well a character is built and developed also matters.

I have a personal theory as to why women like Alicent are often misunderstood and either victimized or villainized by viewers, without being allowed any space to just be. Sadly, it's very difficult for a lot of "modern" minds to shake away the misogyny that's shaped their worldviews growing up. Such misogyny dictates that traditional women are "dumb" because they like girly stuff for example, or they suck at male fields because they like to do their hair and nails every month, or because they menstruate. What I'm saying is, a lot of negative stereotypes about traditionally feminine women still exist, and unfortunately they still influence and predispose the viewers' opinions when a character who fits those stereotypes appears on screen. It's easier to call a woman a "whore," a "terrible mother," a "monster," a "villain," a "witch," "evil," "dumb," a "horrible driver," a "horrible person," "blonde=stupid," etc and you don't get the same insults hurled at men, because the whole world, irrespective of culture or time period, has been calling women as such. Women have been accused of all sorts of failings regardless of whether they were traditional, feminine, pretty, ugly, or not. It's a fact that women are more easily to put the blame on than men, and have proven to historically accept that blame more easily than men, since they had limited freedom and power to choose otherwise.

It makes sense, therefore, for a female character who defies all norms to be celebrated and praised when she appears in media, like Rhaenyra. She stands against her society's conventions, she exercises free will, bends the rules, and acts like a man would in that society. Such behavior is unexpected and therefore it attracts attention and admiration. What often happens, though, is that viewers get so fixated on the "uniqueness" and "badassery" of her character that don't question anything else. Her motivations, her personality, the way she exercises her authority, her female mind. In the end, without realizing it, they can easily get caught up in celebrating a behavior that would be rather off-putting if it was coming from a man within that same society.

And in so doing, the "other woman," the more traditionally feminine one, is again neglected. Sidelined and marginalized, subjected to the same treatment that the viewers are so averse towards when it comes to female representation. By not acknowledging her struggles, the social conventions she has to abide by, the motivations and fears behind her actions, by again not being able to appreciate her female mind, they become her oppressors—just like the men who historically policed female bodies and hated and abused women by their exercise of authority and control over them.

Hi anon 💚

Thanks for suggesting the Anne Boleyn parallel. I've already talked about Margaret Beaufort here. I can also see how historical Anne Boleyn parallels Alicent (especially her book version).

(1) Both women were introduced to court at a young age and were described as intelligent girls who were meant to be useful to powerful men. Alicent is brought to KL and into Viserys' chambers by her father, Otto, and Anne is brought into Henry's orbit by her father, Thomas, while seeking favor for his family. Both Otto and Thomas prompt their daughters to essentially catch the King's eye.

(2) Alicent and Anne both internalized the systems that oppressed them. Anne and Alicent were devoutly religious, morally idealistic in their youth, and both ultimately compromised their beliefs to survive within patriarchal courts. Alicent is a follower of the Seven who, as she grows older, lives less and less by religious governance and more by political necessity, and Anne starts off as a reformist Catholic who later adopts some of Henry's beliefs and ideas.

(3) Both Alicent and Anne were defined by their attempts to navigate a world that only saw them as valuable through their proximity to kings and sons. Viserys married Alicent to have the sons that Aemma couldn't give him, and Henry married Anne to have the sons that he couldn't with Catherine. Eventually, both became mothers to potential heirs: Anne to Elizabeth, and Alicent to Aegon. They both weaponized their motherhood when they had to, to protect the only legacy they had: their children. They fought for their children and were vilified for doing so. Anne is remembered as the "whore" queen who might or might not have committed adultery, all her other accomplishments erased, while book!Alicent is cold and power-hungry and accused of instigating the Dance of the Dragons in the first place.

(4) They both clung to their belief that if they did their duty, if they followed the rules, if they were clever and loyal and useful enough, the system would reward them, only for the system they once upheld and supported to turn on them. Both ended up wielding more influence than anyone expected or wanted them to have, which caused them to become threatening and dangerous, thus eligible for elimination. Anne Boleyn was executed for adultery and treason, and Alicent was imprisoned for life after seeing the deaths of all her children in their pursuit of the Throne.

I'm sick. I need help.

This is a safe daemicent space 💚

I hear you, anon, I see the vision. Although not a massive fan, there's something deeply juicy about the idea of Daemon and Alicent, the barely contained fury between them, the holy vs. profane dynamic, the fact that they would absolutely not survive each other, the tension of them as a ship. They'd never last together, which arguably makes it hotter for daemicent fans I guess.

Realistically? It's very unlikely the show will go there. As much as the writers can have fun with exploring morally messy relationships, Daemon and Alicent are so ideologically opposed that any kind of canon romance would require a massive reworking of their characters and the timeline. The same applies to the "Daeron-or-Aemond-is-Daemon's-son" theories. They are fun to speculate about, but there's nothing in the show that seriously supports them (so far at least). I am ok with fanfic logic, which is valid and I enjoy theorizing about some hints and potential clues we've had so far, but seeing it become canon is doubtful. It is intriguing to imagine the fallout of their dynamic in fics or AUs though.