Classic Rock Magazine interview with Cardinal Copia, translated below the cut:
Before the album will be released in June youāre already on tour, and you constantly have these interview marathons. How does that affect your current mood?
Well, itās a bit like running. Just because you love to run, it doesnāt mean itās good for your knees. (laughs)
Not really. But with progressing age and because I should be ready for a two hour stage show in two months, for 200 shows, I have to get fit.
But that is probably already second nature to youā¦
Yes, but your body needs a certain degree of maintenance. No matter how young you feel, itās more extreme every year. When youāre on tour, youāre somehow always doing sports. In the end your stage clothes wonāt fit right anymore, are far too wide, and when you get your new outfits before the next tour, everything is suddenly super tight. (laughs) I have considerable fluctuation in my sizing, and those fluctuations get bigger with age.
Do you notice that things get harder the older you get? Not that Iām calling you old.
Well, Iām 37. Thatās not old, but Iām not 19 anymore, either. Of course thereās a difference. But I still have the feeling I havenāt reached the top.
Thereās still room upwards, the zenith hasnāt been reached yet?Ā
I think so. Considering that Iām not athletic, I believe thereās still more I can get out of myself. I take better care of myself now than I used to, I stopped smoking six years ago and that improved a lot of things. So thereās a lot of potential upwards: if I start eating vitamins now, maybe itāll be even a little better.
So youāre not doing that at the moment?
(laughs) Well, itās hard to pull myself together when Iām not on tour. As soon as Iām touring I work better. I have more routine.
Thatās unexpected: a lot of artists complain about the lack of routine while on tour.
No, thatās how I feel when I get home. Then I lose all control. But as all artists Iām a little bit spoiled. (whispers from behind his hand) Okay, actually Iām very spoiled. (laughs) I get a lot of help. Especially on tour, when thereās people all the time that are there for you. Sometimes when I travel alone I get confused: Wait, I have to check in myself? Uhm, can somebody please come and handle this situation for me? (laughs) But I like travelling alone, so I have to do things myself again. Everyone reading this probably thinks this sounds incredibly dumb. But most people are creatures of habit, and you get used quickly to certain circumstances. And when you get so pampered, itās just weird when you get home and have to cook for the first time in eight weeksā¦
And even have to get the groceries yourself beforehand.
Oh, exactly! Just getting this chain of thoughts right. Of course that actually just takes a second, but you lack the routine. I like to say we resemble dogs or other animals a lot. Weāre conditioned and we condition ourselves. There are of course ways to condition bad behavior or laziness away.
But because you reflect on these things, maybe youāre not that heteronomous.
Well, Iām at least aware of some things. Thatās what I have to be if I donāt want to become a complete asshole. (laughs)
So the tour starts in Mayā¦
Exactly, in Riverside, California. Weāre going to play some warm up concerts, even if I actually donāt want to call them that. But itās about perfecting the show, to flesh out the finesse. The tour also starts before the album. That means weāll be playing a lot of songs people havenāt heard before. That could get a little weird.
Iāve listened to PREQUELLE already and Iām sure that the devoted Ghost fanbase is hungry for new material, and that a few of the new songs have great earworm potential. Thereās nothing that could go wrong, right?
I hope so. But thereās no guarantee. Iām currently at a point, where Iām a little bit afraid of the start. On one hand I long to be back on stage, and I especially miss the fans, the connection to them. On the other hand thereās going to be a lot of innovations, even practical in nature. And again Iām a creature of habit, and I donāt like trying new things.
But you seem to enjoy the mental creation of something newā¦
Yes, I love it. I love having ideas, but when it comes to execution, it always feels weird at first. Thereās a lot of pressure and usually the joy of creating is long gone by the time of the performance. I prefer the point of time when after 80 shows things run smoothly. Then I can enjoy everything, when I know everything is running in sync.
Is that a regular ailment in your line of work, or is there a bigger uncertainty behind it?
Both, I think. I believe that for most artists, whether rock musician or painter, creativity grows from uncertainty. Just look at those rock bands: most of those guys werenāt the cool kids at school.
Not really. Rockānāroll is usually a way to become cool anywayā¦
Exactly. Itās a paradox: Once your career is going, thereās risk of losing it. While the things that started your career were based on the fact that you didnāt have anything to lose. Itās something that you realize more and more the further you get. Probably a question of age, too. At some point you just know it better and donāt throw yourself off any cliffs. Even though youāre bound to jump from cliff to cliff in this kind of job, even if thereās a black pit between.
Do you feel under pressure after Melioraās great success?
Yes, but it wasnāt a paralyzing fear. Rather I was aware that I had to stay focused, and that a lot depended on the album becoming, well, right. I donāt actually want to say ārightā because you canāt really determine whatās wrong or right. Especially when you create, there are different things you can do right. You still have to get it right to create a feeling that can move the organism forward. Itās like a relationship, itās not enough to say āWeāre going to have a child now, then everything is going to be fine.ā Thereās just more to it, and you need the feeling of moving forward, not sideways or even backwards. Every time you have the unknown before you, which is tempting and intimidating at once. Because you donāt know what you did before. You created something that opened up a great scope of new opportunities. So you canāt make the same decision again, because you already went through that door. Itās like a game, you canāt just walk backwards, except maybe if you hack it. But thatās usually not how it works.
So thereās no magic formula that you can keep using?
Not really. I learned that a lot of the things and circumstances that lead me to this album this past year - most of it actually rather uncomfortable - were necessary to make the album what it is now. And maybe the entire band-brand-career had to be doused with a bit of classic rock scandal, so it was able to develop further. Otherwise it might have become redundant on the long run, along the lines of: we got a new papa again. Oh, Iām still anonymous. How great!
Okay, now that youāre mentioning the topic yourself: when you revealed your identity officially last year, how necessary did that feel? Was it just a part of marketing, or did you think āwell, itās out anywayā?
Yes, mostly that. I just thought, now that the elephant is in the room and glows so brightly itās hard to not give any commentary. I wouldnāt say I felt forced. I was in the studio, recording the new album. I didnāt plan it. But would you have asked me that a few years ago, I wouldnāt have approached it like this, even though I always knew I wouldnāt stay unrecognized forever. Not that I felt very anonymous. I always felt more like I was playing in a masked band, not an anonymous one. Thereās a difference. The focus of Ghostās fans wasnāt on me personally. They didnāt care what kind of shoes I wore off stage. All in all the people didnāt give a shit. But I was of the opinion that I would have to do it sooner or later, and I had the feeling that now it was time.
What has changed for you and your fans since then? Because I think there were a bunch who were very eager to get the official confirmation of whoās behind the mask. There have always been rumors, something that surely was intentional, i assume? The creation of a myth?
Actually the original intention behind it was more pure. That might sound set-up now with my commercial band that has to meet certain commercial standards. It obviously sounds like a marketing recipe, but the original spark behind this idea had a highly artistic claim and was based on the wish to play theater. It turned out the anonymity was a great advertising tool. A tool that I had to restructure in the last year. But it worked out, and one of the things that distinguish Ghost the most from most other bands today, was that we didnāt smear our personality all over the place. Well, aside from all this damned court bullshit! But now itās on me to chose the context I want to present Ghost in, and to what extend I want to smear my personality into your faces.
What I wonāt do is do everything. Iāll still insist that magazines only print pictures with the masks, because thatās the interesting part about Ghost. I sit here in front of you as the director of the show in which I play a role at the same time. But all in all, when you look at my job description, performing is only a tiny part of that. I have to take care of a lot of things. I mean I used to be that little tyke who just wanted to be in a band, and in my 30s I was suddenly catapulted into this situation here: I became the initiator of the band, the singer, even though I only wanted to play guitar, Iām a boss, an employer and I have responsibilities towards so many instances. Thatās not something I had ever thought of back when I practised Pink Floyd songs in my room. Andā¦ ah fuck now I lost my thread. Well, letās look at it from a practical point of view: Just because I did that radio show and because Iām talking to you unmasked now, thereās no difference except that thereās Tobias Forge sitting here now. But Iām still talking about the same things as before. You know, Iām not going to get a facebook profile or IG because of this and start posting constantly.
So everything at Ghost stays the same in the sense of: this wonāt change the concept?
Ghost wonāt change, but the myth around it will.
So you wonāt walk onto stage, arms stretched wide, remove your makeup and shout āItās me! Your messiah!ā
Exactly that wonāt happen. Iām just director. Right now Iām commenting like a producer would for a movie.
Besides your vocal performance youāre also very entertaining. You make people laugh. When did you discover those qualities?
Hm. I know Iāve always wanted to do this, but thereās no fixed point in time when I suddenly noticed that Iām capable of that. I thin my first performance was in kindergarten. My friends and me always dressed up and acted out playback to music. On brooms. (laughs) The first time I performed in front of people I was seven. It was the birthday party of a friend and her mother had a yellow [Guitar] that looked exactly like the guitar of Keith Richards. I was a big Ā fan of the Stones and asked if I could play. And her mother was surprised, but she put up an amplifier and I played for her. Then she said I should play in front of the other kids, and I remember there was a little disco set up in the kidās room, you know, with lights and music. And I regaled them with Love in Vain by the stones. It was basically my first show. But just this one song, and then it was over againā¦ And then of course I destroyed the guitar. (Attention, Irony!)
A classic āThe Whoā! Iām sure the mother was very hooked by you.
Thereās one thing that I really want to know: last year after your concert in Munich I wrote a report for this magazine and noted, that thereās quite the sexual atmosphere are your show. My male colleagues thought me crazy. Are you aware of how the practise of disguise and these occult vibes that play with the aesthetic of dark rites and masses makes the air quiver?
I would have to be blind and autistic to not notice this magic. I think that especially in rockānāroll itās important to have a certain tension. Let it put me like this: I used to be pretty naive and never really thought about a potential of this kind of masked people on stage. Because at first I thought we would mostly appeal to guys....
Yes, I really was. And thatās something that really hit me on our first tour through america. That was the first time we played our own shows for our own fans. It was a completely different dynamic than as support slot. And back then I thought: Wow, fuck! And then I truly realized the shows have an aphrodisiac effect on people. (laughs) Which is interesting, because even from stage I saw people who were really going for it and were doing things that you donāt see every day. And often I didnāt actually know whether they had sex or not. (laughs) Itās of course a flattering thought that my work can cause such processes that affect people even long after the concert. If it brings something in motion, itās amazing. So to answer your question: Yes, I understand it. And Iām not surprised that thereās different perceptions between genders, and that women might feel the sexual aura more than men.
And connected to that the aesthetical concept probably plays a big role as well. The occult symbolism maybe only affects certain peopleā¦ like me for example.
Yes, and the concept of attraction can be so multifaceted. Have you ever watched Pippi Longstockings? Can you remember the characters?Ā
Well, all the animals, and Annika and Tommyā¦
Do you remember Aunt Pryssellius? The lady from the childrenās home. My entire life Iāve only ever seen her as old toad. And now that I have children my wife and I showed them all those old series, partially because now we finally have an excuse to watch them again. (laughs) And then I noticed that her role here is suddenly really hot. Maybe I should google this, not that Iām confusing things. (searches through his phone) Well, up until this point I had never seen it that way, because I had always been convinced sheās this 70 year old bitch. But recently I thought: Oh lala, my god! (laughs)
Perspectives change! (laughs)
Absolutely. And I think itās the same with a guy who probably doesnāt even notices what happens during a ghost show, and maybe the next time he suddenly realizes. Oh look, now I found them. The actressās name is Margot Trooger, take a look at her! (show picture on his phone)
Yes, really. Well, Iām glad you like the show. Weāre going to have three women in the band now, maybe with that itās going to be more exciting for the male audience.
All in all it will be nine musicians, right? Will the women wear the same ghoul outfits?
Yes exactly, all in all we will be nine people, and yes, the clothes will definitely be similar. We just need more people to be able to play what you can hear on the album live, too.
Will you bring a saxophonist?
That brings me to the new album and the song āMiasmaā. When I listened to the instrumental in the middle of Prequelle for the first time, I was astounded and very quickly delighted. This āsaber riderā like sound with the poppy 80s drums and synths, and the saxophone at the end. Tell me something about the creation of this piece.
We have Ā already recorded instrumentals, like for example genesis on our debut. That was still a whole song, whereas on Infestissumam and Meliora we abandoned that a little bit. I think when me and Klaus - the producer - compiled the album we wussed out on the instrumentals a little.
And now youāre back with Miasma, and the second one Helvetesfonster?
Yes, thatās how it feels. I mean we had short pieces before like Devilās Church, all of them small discreet numbers. Helvetesfonster for example was done way before Miasma, before even Meliora. But while we were working on this album I told Klaus: āI have a futuristic and a plague album, which one do you want to make?ā And he decided on the futuristic one. So Helvetesfonster didnāt make it onto Meliora and I had to get it onto Prequelle at all costs. So it easily falls out of context. And during the recording of Helvetesfonster I had the idea for Miasma and i thought: Oh, fuck it. We made way too few instrumentals, we should just jam this at the wall and see what happens. Along the lines of: Letās not play it save and just see where it takes us. On the other hand we had these two tracks ready and I had this urgent need for another song to complement and in a way justify them. This is how Dance Macabre was created, because the album needed a danceable break. Miasma ends on the A side and you turn the LP and the B side starts with Dance. Itās about dynamics, thatās direly needed. Everytime I write I work like this. If thereās a lot of salt somewhere, you have to sprinkle some sugar in places, to balance it out.
Why did you pick a french sounding title for this album, instead of sticking to latin and italian?
It just sounds better. PREQUELLE instead of prequel. Thatās it.
Okay. We got more of a medieval setting here. Itās about death and damnation, thereās songs about the plague, rats as carriers of disease, stuff like that. I think that despite this archaic core Prequelle delivers versatile opportunities of a modern interpretation. Am I on the right track?
Itās very loosely draped around the middle ages. To show how things were and are now, and to draw a line in between. But I also think thereās contemporary relevance inside the lyrics that have no connection to history lessons. Itās actually about now, but for aesthetic reasons and to show how things repeat, the medieval theme fits very well. Everything is somehow cyclic, not much has changed. I think we devolved a little. Nowadays people dismiss the middle ages as mob mentality, see it as something uncivilized, but thereās no big difference to the habits people exhibit online. Itās very similar: Somebody cries āWitch!ā real loud and everyone joins in immediately. On the whole, the album should put the listener into the center of change and riot. And should, in a way, give social commentary that questions the health of our society. I think we live in times where in many places thereās an eminent threat of destruction and damnation present.
Do you see yourself as an intellectual?
Had I put my priorities differently, I probably would had assets to become wiser than I am today. But I never read as much as I wanted to, and I donāt know a lot. Or rather I know a lot, but not everything. (laughs)
I just think maybe I have a gift for a certain kind of knowledge and wisdom.
And you are in a situation where people hear what you have to say.
Yes, thatās true. And this realization follows another one: At the end of the day Iām perfectly content not to be a professor or politician. Iām an artist. And my mission is to entertain people. Obviously you work with everything you have and see. So I value it a lot that, in front of the vast background of rockānāroll and its usually more dumb bands, Ghost presents itself a little more intellectual. But in the end itās all about entertainment.
Before I came here I received this list of dos and donātsā¦
With notes that explain what I should say and what I shouldnāt. I couldnāt exactly tell how serious or ironical that was meant to be.
Donāt forget, that came from the label.
So personally you donāt find that necessary?
Well, since Iām currently in a trial, thereās obviously some things I am not allowed to nor want to talk about. But if you had asked me, I would have just answered with āno commentā.
So you wouldnāt have kicked me out if I had asked for the connection between the concept of Ghost and Kiss. I just spotted a Love Gun button on your jacketā¦.
No, of course not. And Love Gun was the first album I ever bought. I love this album.
For conclusion: Whatās a question that you would like to be asked in an interview?
I wish I had a cool answer for this ready. (laughs) But I keep digging up all this information about me, and from a more casual point of view it would be more fun for the both of us if you asked me questions about other bands, because I would be able to answer those. Or not. (laughs) Just because I like the thought of participating in a quiz on band trivia.
I promise Iāll prepare one the next time we meet!
(laughs) That would be amazing, thank you.
