#e collars

This is an embarassingly bad paper based on the use of two aversive based dog trainers who are clearly incompetant in the use of +R - yet the e collar training community is taking a victory lap.

The fact that this got past an animal ethics review is honestly appalling and the university should be ashamed.

Let's go over the main huge flaws with this study:

The positive reinforcement protocol they are using to compare to e collars is laughably incompetant - with no management or use of distance, desensitisation. Just use a leash? Maybe?

Use of aversives to stop chasing is, unsurprisingly, effective. Because, yes, painful consequences tend to work to suppress behaviour. That isn't the problem that people have with e collars.

The author seems to think that use of e collars is justified because it "gets results" in a short amount of time to stop dogs chasing - again, apparently we haven't heard of a leash.

"Aside from presumably pain-induced yelps in the dogs with e-collars when they received shocks, none of the dogs in any groups showed any signs of stress or distress." So we're saying a pain vocalisation isn't a sign of distress? That's your welfare parameter? Jfc.

Love how they didn't even try to get fecal cortisol baselines and just collected samples from a few dogs but not all of them. You tried, I guess?

The fact that the trainers for the study is "Ivan and Ivan's Student" is ridiculously biased. Acting as if both these trainers know how to apply +R effectively as opposed to their heavy aversive tool use is laughable.

"We designed our study’s methods around current trainer practices as well as the recommendations of our senior trainer while attempting to keep continencies as simple as possible." - yeeeah that's a conflict of interest. Especially when your "senior trainer" has an axe to grind with R+ people using scientific papers to support their training methods.

You're chucking treats in a bowl after a few sessions and you think that's going to stop a dog chasing a lure? Oh yeah, you got us. We just throw kibble in a bowl to stop dogs running into traffic. I am genuinely floored that that's how they think a +R protocol for chasing works. They have no business comparing the two when they can't even do one properly.

"We also did not test whether the food rewards we deployed were highly valued." Okay so the majority of my client dogs will go nuts for my meaty high value treats because they've only had store bought dry treats and the client is shocked at how food motivated their dog suddenly is..... So this study was relying on whatever the guardian of the dog brought with them lmao rookie mistake.

"Dogs that chase livestock may be shot or otherwise euthanized, and dogs that chase cars may be killed in traffic." Put. Them. On. A. Leash.

"The practical applicability of either the LIMA or LIFE models is likely limited, at least in the United States where dog trainers are not required to be licensed or certified. In a sample of highly rated dog trainers, more than half did not document any relevant education." Does that include your "senior trainer"? It does. Because he doesn't have any formal education in canine behaviour, welfare and science. You know this. You chose him to be your trainer for your study.

"The speed and effectiveness with which the e-collar inhibited the dogs in this study from chasing may justify the limited number of painful stimulations the dogs experienced if the object the dogs were chasing had been something that could directly or indirectly cause them serious injury or death." Or..... OR.... you could not use electric shocks on your dog and potential cause long term damage, fear responses ect.... And use a leash.

Just baffled by this whole study. My high prey drive whippet will go feral for a lure but only when she knows the context for when she's being allowed to chase. She can be at a lure coursing trial for the whole day not worrying about the lure because 1) I keep her at a distance where the stimulus isn't saliant enough and 2) she gets reinforcement for calmly watching from a distance.

If I am completely honest, I very rarely send a pet home after a spay or neuter with a cone, preferring to be generous with their pain relief instead. Never had a problem with evisceration, even with farm dogs. Sometimes a cat spay will come back a little swollen or with a seroma, but it’s because “She was jumping around and running all over the place the next day!“ in the owner’s words, when they were told not to let her do that, and a cone would probably not have prevented that. Some boy dogs to lick, because they’ve always licked, but a little anti-itch cream seems to stop that too. So I mostly use cones for obsessive animals, or for facial/eye surgery.

For most of my patients they’re not chewing at the stitches, they’re licking at the shaved skin, clipper rash or regrowing hair. So a thin layer of cloth can be enough to prevent that. If I was worried about a pet actually having a go at their stitches, I would still use an Elizabethan collar (E collar). I prefer to use all internal stitches when I can too, so there is less to lick at and irritate the patient.

Some animals will absolutely panic and freak out if you put them in a cone. Some, due to the shape of their head and neck, wont be able to eat or drink. Neither of these situations are acceptable, so we may elect to use an inflatable collar or a shirt (like a ‘onsie’ but open at the back) to prevent licking instead of a rigid plastic cone.

first of all, there are many different types of e-collars, and while some do give literal shocks, others give vibrations! i’ve seen many people call this a lie or a downplay of the collar– at that point, you become an unreliable source because you’ve clearly not worked with many, if any, of these collars!

(responsible owners and trainers test the collars on their own skin and should know exactly what it feels like so they can take it into consideration when using their various settings)

second, i’ve seen many people who can’t hear, speak, and/or see– or who have DOGS who can’t hear and/or see– using exclusively the vibration collars or settings to communicate with their pets or service companions in some way, so keep that in mind

third, and most importantly, every dog is different, and you have no idea what’s going on with someone else’s dog. some dogs can actually become anxious and stressed out by positive reinforcement training. other dogs don’t respond to it at all– no, not even with the “right motivation”!

electronic collars, when used correctly, can even be therapeutic for anxious or reactive dogs, and– i cannot stress this enough– they’ve SAVED LIVES!!! many dogs that would’ve otherwise been euthanized have been rehabilitated with electronic collars and went on to live long, fulfilling lives with their families because of them. would you rather a dog be afraid to run up and attack strangers at every opportunity for fear of a shock, or be dead? for many families, that question becomes a reality when their overprotective/aggressive/reactive dog doesn’t respond to other methods! and no, it’s not always an owner’s fault their dog behaves that way in the first place! there are many reasons why dogs attack and kill other animals or people, and sometimes, e-collars are one of very few options when situations become time sensitive, as in, life-or-death, okay?

many dogs with jobs, such as K9s, are trained with electronic collars of every variety for different reasons and tasks, and the dogs live long, healthy, happy lives with a strong sense of purpose and fulfillment. dogs trained this way still love their jobs and their handlers!

positive reinforcement trainers would like to think their methods will work for any dog with the right amount of time, patience, effort, and motivation, but unfortunately, that’s simply not the case. positive reinforcement does not work for everyone, nor everything!

my personal opinion is that a diverse range of methods and tools can be used with just about any dog. as long as you’re working as a team, familiar with responses and body language, and actively seeking to improve quality of life, you should be doing what works for your dog!

please stop being ignorant of their many uses! owners and trainers who utilize them are constantly harassed and shamed for them, but i can guarantee you that if you’re paying attention, it should be immediately evident who’s using them properly vs who’s shocking the hell out of their innocent dog because they’re a piece of shit! there’s such a huge difference, and it matters!

I can also imagine a $2 clicker and a bag of treats or much cheaper than shock collars and the more, “complex” bits

Oh I missed this - but yes, well said! I think the biggest issue is that shock collars get a lot of marketing behind them. They're products, entire dog training franchises revolve around them. You can't make money off selling $2 clickers in the same way.

And there is that very "quick fix" approach with shock collars as well - where they can promise a beginner that all they have to do is a press a button when the dog does something they don't like and - problem solved! And it's very much how commercialism and capitalism has re-wired our brains for "efficiency" and "it worked, so what's the problem?". AND the deeply reinforcing effect of using aversives on the punisher - the behaviour stops, so you feel in control and you feel good.

That's why you see so many people falling over themselves to say shock collars "don't hurt" and that their dog "loves" their shock collar. Because it is for THEM to feel in control - not necessarily for the dog.

Whereas clicker training requires a learning curve to get the mechanical skill right and it requires taking treats with you and building up your behaviours ect.

If I do have a client using an aversive tool, I am very conscious of how it may be helping them feel safe and in control. So I won't take it away immediately if it's just a management tool but I will work with them to move towards something less aversive and build confidence.

Electric-Collar company produce different types of product for pet animals and also offers  a consulting , services , retail and wholesale of electronic  fences and dog collars. Electric-collars are largest suppliers in Europe for electronics fences, dog collar and for dog shelters. So you want to train your dog and want to make perfect for hunting visit electric-collars.com.

I'm only going to say this a few times, but I wanted to get it out into the open before someone freaked out. 

I bought a pair of e-collars.