Define gender I tried to comment on an anti-trans video, transphobes got out of hand. This is the comment thread. I’ll update it when more of them rage at me. For some reason Peak Trans pinned my comment. If I’m mentioned it’s as @maddie, a friend of mine joined the debate, he’s @friend1. At this point it would make more sense to read the YouTube video thread, it’s now at 31 replies: Video here
my comment This whole video is a bit laughable. I only watched it because I have to balance an essay I'm writing about this, but I didn't actually find any logical arguments I could use. Have you thought that MAYBE, the reason Jammidodger has a larger following is because he has studied this in depth, and is actually a kind and an accepting human. Okay, so you mention that how would a person know what their gender identity was if it didn't match what they were assigned at birth? Well, how do you know your sexual orientation? It's a similar concept. Sexual orientation isn't determined physically or by stereotypes, gender identity isn't either. And bringing up some examples of the online abuse that JK Rowling has gone through? Trans people go through this and worse on a daily basis. Also, boiling down being a woman to gametes? This IS offensive to intersex people. But it is also offensive to Cis women, it's acting as if their lives as women are summed up by their sex cells. In addition, you mention Misgendering, and yes, JK Rowling didn't misgender the only specific transgender person she mentioned, but it is misgendering to refer to Transwomen in general, as "men who think they are women". And before any Transphobes accuse me of being an angry transgender person whom is overreacting and attacking people on the internet, I'm a CIS lesbian who supports trans rights, and trying to logically present an argument to people who don't seem to understand some pretty basic concepts. It is okay if people don't understand something that they haven't personally experienced, but defending that belief on the ground that they don't understand the basic concepts/experiences in a way that claims a group neither exists or deserves rights? That is discrimination. (Also the camera quality and audio are as awful/flawed as your logic.)
Transphobe 1 As most commenters here agree, this video is brilliant and you wouldn't recognize logic if it smacked you in the teeth. Name one thing in it that you can refute with logic - you can't. All you can do is throw out insults and wave your ignorance like a flag. You're too closed-minded to recognise intelligent arguments based on evidence. Your ignorance about intersex people is embarrassing. I suggest you watch Maria's video on that very subject and engage with the intersex people who have thanked her beneath it. Have you thought that MAYBE the reason Jammidodger has a larger following is because he's been making videos for ten years and this woman only started last year? Number of subscribers isn't a sign of quality - unless you think that Fox News and the Sun are epitome of intellectual integrity. Judging by your dumb comment, you probably do. my reply Um, did you read my comment? Because I refuted several points she made. I have 2 intersex people in my family, and they disagree with her points strongly, and I'm not exactly ignorant of the issues they face. You mention her videos, however how many other sources and media regarding these topics do you actually watch, and how much of it do you research yourself? Maybe Jammidodger has a higher following because he accepts people who desperately need acceptance and a community to feel safe in. Why would I think Fox News is the epitome of integrity? Everyone knows how insanely bigoted they are. Also it what way does me commenting to promote acceptance for a community that need acceptance and people to educate themselves on the issues in an impartial manner, mean I'm bigoted? Transphobe 1 reply 2 Stop lying. You haven't 'refuted' anything. You don't even know what the word 'refute' means and you are fooling nobody. Do you know what an argument is? It involved premises and a conclusion e.g. P1: Man is the word for an adult human male. P2: Jammidodger is an adult human female C: Therefore Jammidodger is not a man. Refute that.
transphobe 2 Hey, maddie, you realise you haven't presented a single counter-argument, right? Btw, kind and accepting humans don't make nasty videos lying about people. Jamie is a very disturbed and hateful individual. Maybe one day you'll be on the receiving end of the kind of hate Jamie doles out to people who disagree with her and you'll understand but now you honestly sound too young and arrogant to know what you're talking about.
Biologists define sex by gametes, intersex people are male or female and "gender identity" is hogwash. Your question about how you know your sexual orientation is unbelievably stupid. Finally, how are you defining 'woman'? my reply Why is there an assumption that being accepting to the trans community and researching it means I would be young? Is this assumption because all of you are in your fifties and sixties? Is this bigotry because you were all raised in a less accepting era, so therefore have to overcompensate for your lack of understanding in social issues, and what different people go through. Are you calling this lady "kind"? Because all the words you use to describe Jamie (Who is MALE - *him) personally describe this woman. It is strange of you to assume I don't receive hate in real life, however there is a support structure for LGBTQ+ people to fall back on. Is your resentment because you envy this support structure? Also, people DO know their sexual identity in a similar way how they know your gender identity, do I know I'm a lesbian because it's written in bold on my forehead? No, I know as an instinct, as a sense of identity in who I am. A woman is whoever identifies as female. Transphobe 2 reply 2 The assumption that you are young is based on the fact that you sound young: you said the video is "laughable" but didn't say why, you said you were writing an essay but "didn't find any logical arguments" in it, you ask "how would you know your sexual orientation" - which is possibly the dumbest question ever. These are not the comments of a mature person who has been around the block. Wake me up when you are able to put a coherent argument together. In the meantime, I'm sure you have some homework to do. my reply My argument about sexual orientation was to make my point as simple as possible. People point out that it's a stupid question, but then ask how people know their gender identity. If it's a stupid question, answer it in a way that can't be used to explain that people know their gender identity, go on. How do you know your sexual orientation? I've asked transphobic people before and all of their answers can be used to explain gender identity too. Therefore, a simplistic question, it may be, but it gets my point across. You use the phrase "around the block", which originally meant prostitution and sexual experience, are you implying that someone has to either have notable sexual experience or be a prostitute to be considered, in your eyes at least, mature? I feel that my arguments have been considerably more coherent and concise than yours. For some unusual reason you feel the need to attack age and use insults, mentioning how "dumb" my points are, but not saying anything to counteract them beyond your opinion of them. Reply when you can string a sentence together without an insult or stereotype? Have a nice night!
Transphobe 2 reply 3 You've been insulting to this youtuber from the outset, so don't get sanctimonious with me, child. You're not getting the point that so-called 'gender identity' is complete bollocks. I know my sexual orientation because I know the sex of people I am sexually attracted to. What is "gender" anyway? If you've watched the video you're dissing you should be prepared for the question and be able to define it but you can't define "woman" so I won't hold my breath. The expression "been around the block" has nothing to do with prostitution or sexual experience - don't you even have the werewithal to use an internet search engine? You don't even know what an argument is - if you think you've made any coherent ones, you are even more deluded than I first thought.
My Reply First of all, if you think what I started out doing was insulting then you have not spoken to a real human in a long time. Do not call me a child, you may be bored in retirement so seek out logical arguments to combat (or insult because I haven't been receiving many logical arguments), but if accepting people and not being a bigot is childish, then I would happily be a child. As it stands I am an adult. Again, Woman is the female identifying gender of the human race. Yes "been around the block" is a turn of phrase but if you research how the phrase became commonly used you would realize you are wrong. I could provide a link if it's past the retirement homes bedtime ;).
Transphobe 2 reply 4 I'll call you a child as long as you behave like one. For pity's sake learn the meaning of the word 'logic'. It doesn't mean "unsupported statements I like the sound of". You have been calling other people bigots since you arrived on this page but bigotry means intolerance and that is what you are all about. That is why you came here to troll and sneer and name-call. "Woman is the female identifying gender", For crying out loud - are you serious? Can you really not see that you are digging yourself deeper and deeper? Now your task is to define female and define gender. Good luck with that.
creator: Peak Trans " It is okay if people don't understand something that they haven't personally experienced,". I guess that's why you don't understand what being a woman means. Are you still in high school? my reply I understand what being a woman means, I just think it shows a socially regressive mindset that you see the social identities of women boiled down to their sex cells. It insults all women, in every sense, even those you refuse to be inclusive of. And what makes you think that having a different, more accepting mindset means I would be a child? Peak Trans reply 2 I haven't said anything about social identities. However they "identify", all women are defined are adult human females. It is because women and girls are female that they have been oppressed across cultures and throughout history - not because of how they "identify". That is what is important here - not not some subjective feeling of "who you really are". If you disagree, then feel free to provide your own definition of woman that is coherent, meaningful and non-circular. I guarantee you won't be able to. My reply Transwomen don't claim to have been repressed the same way cis women have, (this is another reason the adjectives exist, to distinguish the different experiences). However, Trans people are oppressed as well, like gay people throughout history. Ciswomen are oppressed too, no one is denying that fact, but acknowledging that trans people are oppressed in different ways will not take away from ciswomen's rights. There are different forms of oppression. A lot of Trans Exclusionary people do not acknowledge that gender identity, in the way people instinctively know it, is very similar to sexual orientation. My friend knows he's trans the way I know I'm a lesbian, it's instinctive. Peak Trans reply 3 You were asked to define 'woman'. Your inability to do so is noted without surprise. You know nothing. Stop wasting my time.
my reply @peak trans I did define woman. In 1 of my replies, I said "A woman is whoever identifies as female." And that is a definition. Please read a comment thread before replying to it. I feel your inability to accept changes and progress in society far outweighs any inability of mine. Listening to logic is never a waste of time, well not as much of a waste as the time taken to make this video. ;)
Peak Trans Reply 4 I did read it. That is exactly why I said you are unable to define 'woman'. You were not asked who is a woman, you were asked to define 'woman'. Do you know what 'define' means? It means explain the meaning of a word. The globally accepted definition of the word 'woman' is adult human female. See how that explains exactly what the word woman means? If you disagree with that definition, then by all means provide your own. To put it simply, the question is not who is a woman but what is a woman. Got it now? My Reply Your definition: Adult human female works for all women including transwomen, the definition didn’t specify adult human Biologically female, just adult, human and female. And you mentioned that you didn't mention social identities, but gender identity is a social identity.
Friend 1 @Peak trans Biological Sex - what you were born as and what the doctor originally put on your birth certificate Physical Sex - what your body currently is (for most people the same as biological) Gender Identity - what you identify as/want to be physically All three of these can be completely different. I cannot see what is so hard about these definitions and why some people struggle so much with them. Identity should be what people see as the person's actual gender but I can completely understand believing that Physical is the real one and I believe Physical should be the most important with things like toilets and competitions. Biological really shouldn't matter at all.
Peak Trans @Friend1 Define gender.
You haven't given a good or a bad or an indifferent definition of it. All you've said is that it is "what you identify as/want to be physically". That doesn't tell us what it is. If I identify as a vegetarian, does that make 'vegetarianism' my gender? If I wish I were Japanese, does that make Japanese my gender? Of course not. Try again
Friend 1 reply I did define 'woman', with all three definitions. Or at least better then you did, as yours doesn't even back up your point. Your definition, being "adult human female", doesn't at all exclude trans women, as they are still human, definitely female and usually an adult. I found this pretty funny to be honest, as throughout this video, you felt the need to pause Jamie an annoying amount to ask him to define woman, whilst at the same time providing your own definition that supports his point. You are correct with this, your definition does perfectly summarise what a woman is, I guess I did summarise Gender instead. With Gender Identity, the whole reason for it needing to exist is because it doesn't always correlate to the biological gender of the person. Also, I don't understand your argument of identifying as vegetarian or Japanese changing your gender identity, those two things do change your identity, but it is unrelated to gender. Gender Identity is the GENDER you IDENTIFY as, not your diet or ethnicity, Gender Identity is just for your GENDER, nothing else. Also @Blue Steel, I am finding it hard to believe that your aren't the troll here. I know for a fact me and @maddie are both serious about this and we both provide good points while trying to remain mostly passive. However, you here spend most of your comments insulting us, and when you do actually argue, it is a glorified "no u", which is so pathetic I don't even count it. I have defined Gender for you, and Peak Trans' definition of Woman is correct, but it doesn't support your point.
Peak Trans You still haven't defined 'gender' and you haven't defined 'woman' once, never mind three times. You evidently don't know the meaning of the word 'female' either. Those people you refer to as "trans women" are male. If they were female, there would be no need to call them 'trans'. Oh, and point to a single insult I have levelled at either of you. Here's a suggestion: watch my series about transgender ideology which unpacks all the awful arguments you make and then some. Start with the first one entitled: what is a woman. Then come back to me with your counter-arguments. Until you've done so, I really can't be arsed with you.
Friend 1, who is increasingly exasperated: I have defined gender 3 times but will do it again for you, Biological is whether you had a penis or vagina at birth, Physical is the one you currently have and identity is what you identify as. I have agreed with your definition of woman, and pointed out how it supports my point. Trans women are women, and you are right, there is no need to add the trans just like there is no need to add the cis to you, women are women. Trans and Cis just describe the women just like how transphobic and bigoted describe you, but there is no need to use them to describe the person every time. @Phil Hell, maddie has quoted and broken down not just multiple parts of the video in her original comment, but even talks about parts of JK Rowling's original essay, so not only has she done the research needed to comment on the video, but she has done much more as well. @kellysuther, if I was to get the surgery to become female, I would then produce the female gametes instead of male ones, so I don't really understand what your argument is. Unless you are saying that gender cannot be changed, to which I would ask how some "males" manage to become indistinguishable from females in every way.
Friend 2: @peaktrans @Gee Gog and @maddie have both defined gender multiple times, if you actually read the arguments against your points you would see. ‘Biological sex’ is defined by your gametes and sexual organ, this is the sex you are born with. Physical sex is your current sex/gender, e.g., a biological woman can get gender reassignment surgery to become physically male. Biological and Physical sex aren’t always the same thing, they can be i.e., cisgender. Gender identity is what a gender/genders/lack of genders a person identifies as at a certain time or all the time. A woman can be an adult biological male who identifies as female. If you are going to make a video on this topic you should have done this research, its laughable how this attitude is still widely accepted as ‘ok’. There are ‘different kinds of woman’ cis gender is one of those. Cis woman isn’t used to ‘reinforce the idea there are different kinds of woman’ it just refers to a biological woman who identifies as female. Woman is not your word, yes it refers to adult female, however you don’t have to be biologically female to be a woman. Cis is used the same way as how transgender is shortened down to trans. You say you don’t want the cis at the start of woman however it is necessary as it falls under the umbrella term woman. Being a cis woman is till being a woman. Trans woman are may be biologically male but they still are woman. If you need woman or gender to be defined again it is proof you are not reading arguments against your transphobic view.
