#ckutradio

The fact is that global supply chains are just so important, they are still moving, but on the backs largely of migrant workers now, but also we can see how fragile these systems are now, because we are watching them break down in front of our eyes in many ways, while migrant workers are some of the few that keep going right now.

One thing that is very sad and this will be an issue once this virus has subsided here, is that as a result of relentless privatization of public works in general and defunding of health care in the global south, when and if this crisis of pandemic really hits many southern countries, we will see a big impact because the public health care systems have been so destroyed by structural adjustment, via the IMF and World Bank. 

The fact is that many economies in the global south are dependent on remittences from migrant workers and also dependent in terms of the markets establishing the economies in the global south as being reliant on becoming cheap manufactures for the global north, they are dependent on financial frameworks and funding via purchasing power and investments from the north now. Through globalization policies that have pushed market frameworks of production in the south, national economies in the south haven’t been allowed to develop their own independent economic models and now will be hit with this massive slow down. 

So it will be devastating for the south, because as we go in to recession, many countries in the global south are going to face mass unemployment, the fact that many people lack reasonable health care and shelter in many cases, even workers for many major western corporations, like the textile industry in Bangladesh, this economic recession will deeply impact many countries in the global south that rely on manufacturing for the north. 

The World Bank has already said this, as they have said that they will need to push structural adjustment and pro market policies even further as a response, it will just reenforce these types of damaging policies to try to keep the funds within this international market balanced in the G7 and also now elites in the G20 economies. 

If you look at countries in the global south, I am thinking particularly about how this will impact India, in the Philippines, who rely on this manufacturing model in globalization. 

Stefan : In terms of the economic recession that this all will will create. How can activists and social movements respond to this movement, because it is a transformative moment, I am wondering what you think are some of the things that people should be raising in terms of political critiques toward how power is responding to this ...

Mostafa : I think that we are experiencing a moment that we have never seen before, this is a moment that could bring major change, when people say there is no going back to normal, I think that this is true, but also I think that we can take action, as activists, because this could go one way or another. 

This is what is so important about this moment, for the first time in a long time people see themselves all connected, unfortunately though a virus, but yes connected as a globe. There is a sense of social solidarity on a basic level, the fact that people are willing to be distant from each other, the fact that people are putting up rainbows, the fact that people are putting up activist banners and finding other ways to connect. I think that for the first time, there is a broad sense of connection for a great many people that goes beyond the market and for many their job doesn’t define them first right now, but the fact that people have value as human beings and that they have a right to stay alive. 

I think that this is different than anything that our generation has lived through and that even how governments are responding, they are printing money, to varying degrees, there has been no real implementation of socialism, but the fact that the government is taking steps to augment wages, that they are willing to helicopter money to people, that the government is saying that we will give healthcare to almost all people at this time, or the fact that the government can just shut down the economy, this all shows that all-in-all another world is possible. 

Also in a weird way, these policies are all things that we will need to defend after, all of these policies were possible, unfortunately because of a virus, but these policies are possible, free transit, less work time, more time for family, health care for all, housing as a right, all of these things became possible and they exit in some way now as realistic and real, we need to defend these types of policies as the new normal. 

Think that part of thinking about this moment, as the left, as activists, is that after this all subsides, we are seriously going to have to defend anything that was handed out by the government, while in response, we will witness the next evil, because the government will claim that we have to pay for this all now, you know and then will that lead to some politicians aiming to privatize more services within the healthcare sector and more state resources. 

It is clear that the private sector wasn't truly dynamic, that it requires real public institutions to carry anything through. So I think that after this all and also right now, we have to articulate to society and say look, we need these things, these public institutions, these rights for workers, it is a matter of life and death, and we all just went through this, we need these things as society. 

The other thing, in terms of a global picture, is that it is clear, the campaigns to drop the debt in the global south and campaigns to end the sanctions, all need our support. Because the other thing that is going wickedly unnoticed, is that the U.S. is using this moment, not in a conspiratorial kinda way, but the U.S. government is openly using this moment for extreme foreign policy and it is getting less media attention then it would because of the crisis, so the U.S. is saying yes we are going to going to attack the government of Venezuela economically and politically, we are going to go after Iran even further, fight to keep our influence in Iraq major, despite major protests, to support the Israeli siege and bombing of Gaza. 

I think that people are identifying this moment of pandemic rightly and saying look, you have to stop bombing Gaza to the Israeli government, look you have to lift the sanctions on Iran, there has to be a permanent ceasefire in Yemen. I think the one thing that will need to be focused on after this crisis, after the virus subsides, is that solidarity with the global south is going to be very important. 

Stefan : In terms of directly countering the argument that governments will put forward re: local economics. They will say that all these steps that have been put forward in regards to the pandemic situation, in terms of supporting workers, in terms of many policies that have been adopted, even in terms of the healthcare system in the U.S. in terms of this emergency moment. 

I am wondering how you respond to the argument that says "well this has to be paid for !" I mean there are different arguments right, like governments saying that one way to pay for this will be to decimate public institutions and public spending, but what are other approaches ? What is your critique of this framework that sees austerity as the only way out ?

Mostafa: I mean the anti-capitalist framework would be to simply say, that we must outline that capitalism is just a system in which the ways that things are organized and given that in this system a lot of the wealth and surplus profits from the system are privately recuperated in an exploitative way, we need this system to change. 

But now it is key is to challenge this system, because if there is the political will to change at this time of crisis, to think about the health of people, then it could happen anyway, this is true. 

Say when country "A" says, we are in so much debt because of this, then we have to challenge that there is another way to get out of this, paying for the debt doesn’t need to come at the expense of people. Who is the debt to anyways ? The debt is to the banks, but the government controls regulation for the banks, so change the regulation also in response to the crisis, why bail out the banks again ?

Stefan : Can you expand on this point ?

Mostafa : I mean if the government expands the public budget, then the debt is to yourself, if the government is borrowing or printing money, then it is in debt to themselves. I mean there are economic considerations in capitalism, because if you are printing more money, then what is the value of your money and that is now inflation happens, but I mean these financial laws aren't natural laws, they are manmade laws. 

So you can equally say that there is no recession for public institutions, we are just stopping to produce things, or to do things, because we think it is the right things to do at this moment. 

It is clear that it is possible to just cancel the debt, or when the government hands out near universal basic income, that when people are give value first, over money, the right to eat, to do the things they need to do, to pay their rent, simply because they are a human being first, not valued because they have a "X" or "Y" job. 

I think that this is the other thing that has been clear throughout this crisis, the idea of what is essential, is fascinating to watch, because it is other things beyond the jobs that are celebrated, because we have given so much value to bullshit jobs, but now with this crisis people can see more clearly what points are the basis of life really are. It is clear now that many of the people who produce actual value , what is valued in this society, making food, driving buses, delivering mail, cleaning things, making things, these are the ones who don't get any financial rewards most often, this is so important to think about. 

Stefan : Yes, who gets the financial rewards, what do bankers and CEOs actually do to help society, beyond managing how to exploit the labour of people and the environment.

Yes, so your talking essential workers, people in the healthcare system, people keeping transit going, keeping food supplies going, people who are producing and sustaining agriculture, keeping the city clean and running. 

Mostafa : Exactly, these are the people who are producing things that are actually valuable to us and people are starting to understand this, while many other sectors aren't essential, but are very celebrated.

Stefan : Like financial services ?

Mostafa : Yes, people in financial services, in marketing, in stocks. This is what is considered as producing value and making society advance ? Come on. This framework is just driven by the laws and logic of the market, but all this goes up in smoke right now. 

But to go back to the question "who pays for this" this is a political question, it is not a question of the market right, because at the end of the day even if governments are borrowing from investment banks, or institutional funders like pension funds, it is the government that still dictates the terms and this is a thing that we need to be loud about afterwards, because we have the power to make these decisions, among them, not the other way around, to demand that the response isn’t austerity on the most vulnerable in society again. 

Stefan : To ensure that the response to this financial crisis coming out of COVID-19 isn't dictated by big finance and banks ...

Mostafa : Yes. We shouldn’t simply bail out the banks and oil companies, it is also about the money that a government borrows and allowing the public government to say, the public purse will not pay exorbitant amounts back to the banks at this time of crisis here and all around the world, it doesn't need to be this way because the banks have never been responsible or looking out for the public good.

Stefan : Can you break that down a little more about the choice, or not, to pay the banks back exorbitant rates ...

Mostafa : I mean the government, if it has to borrow, it can do it two ways, by printing money, but then that lowers the price of the money, or it borrows from banks and other institutional funders, right, we are always paying interest on those loans, like governments in the global south, and all of that financing is usurped privately, the profits, just go back to the banks without them having done anything. 

Although we control as a government, theoretically in a democracy, as a state, so those interest rates the banks are charging, we are allow to say no. The government can dictate what those banks can and can't do, simply put, at the end of the day right now, we are paying them essentially to essentially manage the public purse, while they walk away with a great amount of the money, money that belongs to society, not the banks. 

Then at the end of the day that the banks, and also major companies, just use that money, often without a plan, and whenever they need to be bailed out to come running back to the public purse, in all the cases, the banks and corporations, are just using these public funds to get rich on our backs, and then to piss it away and mismanage what they can’t steal through buybacks and bonuses. 

Bombardier is the clearest example in Quebec, the fact that it was able to take billions of dollars from the government and then Bombardier just moved, without accountability, to sell off most of the company to other multinationals, with the tops at Bombardier benefiting in a major way. 

Or generally when the financial sector was bailed out after the financial crisis in 2008, these moments are often used for share buybacks, or CEO pay and benefits. 

It is interesting to see in the US that in this bailout that there are actual limitations to what the government and corporations can use the money for, the bill limits CEO pay, limits share buybacks theoretically, lets see if it is actually monitored, largely because of the intervention of Sanders. 

So the thing is that what is clear that it is possible for the public sector, the state in a democracy, to dictate the term on finance, and the fact is that we shouldn't be giving banks and major corporations these funds openly, or allowing them to make money off public debt, are all things we need to sound the alarm on. We need to reject this now and to reject austerity after. 

This in fact shows the argument, the need, that only through socialized policies can we actually save ourselves as a species, which is crazy to think about, because the logic of the market is that the market is dynamic, that governments need to give markets space to produce innovation and that the free market will create the most rationalize responses, the most efficient, etc. but none of this took place throughout this crisis. 

The only thing that has mitigated this crisis, to ensure that it wasn't even worse of a catastrophe than it already is, was the balance of force on actual non market oriented policies, through the intervention of the public sector, through health care policies, through welfare policies, through policy intervention from the state.