#c!dreamisms

for one, i think it's worth pointing out how often c!dream's anger in these cases is obviously emotional to the point of incoherence--it's often been stated that his speech in the logstedshire chase scene screams of projection in the midst of a panic attack, which, i mean? yeah? he's making assumptions about what c!tommy thinks and basically repeating what c!quackity said in that cell almost word for word and making the kill-and-revive-you-over-and-over-and-over threat that he definitely wasn't going to go through with (though, is kind of interesting retrospectively considering we know that he literally did that to himself). then there's his rant to c!sam in daedalus one which literally includes his threatening c!sam with c!quackity, a claim so absurd that c!sam himself points it out as making no sense. and then there's his speech with c!quackity where he says he's going to torture...las nevadas? as in, the country? dream that's. dream it's a country. it can't feel pain. dream.

in this, a clear pattern is established where a lot of these angry threats are...bluffs. hot air. even if c!dream is genuine when he makes these threats, they're really not plausible (like, uh, please tell me how youre gonna convince quackity to torture sam for you king.) and it's not like c!dream doesn't have a pattern of being A Whole Lotta Bark when you have him in a position where he feels cornered, either. but with this, there's a precedent that's established where c!dream's threats, particularly threats where he's literally just listing shit out like that, should be taken with a grain of salt. less evidence of true plans and more an attempt to bare his teeth at you until you back the fuck away.

of course, this in itself isn't enough to claim that all of his claims of more vindictive actions should be dismissed. that being said, across the board, when you look at c!dream's actual actions post-prison...well, the amount of actual revenge this guy gets is. very small. very small. in fact, contrary to what one might think due to his paranoia and the huge breach of trust that had happened as a result of the prison, c!dream actually seems quite willing to establish connections with other people--friendly interactions, even alliances to a certain degree. looking at the following list of interactions w/ people post-prison:

He immediately gives the axe of peace to c!Techno in Snowchester after they part ways at the Arctic Commune--though the lack of favors between them indicates that there's no real explicit reason to call on each other in the immediate future, he does show very clearly that their parting hasn't made himself unwilling to cooperate with c!Techno at all.

Punz is self-evident--he speaks with his ally and reaffirms that the plan is still on track (a plan made before the negative effects that prison had on his. uh .everything)

The aforementioned conflict with c!Tommy, where he makes a lot of threats in ways that seem like a pretty damn deliberate mirror of c!Quackity and makes no effort to follow through on, particularly in tems of the killing-and-reviving shit and keeping tommy in exile and whatever else he was saying there

The interaction with Sapnap, where he is clearly gauging c!Sapnap's reaction and flees shortly after things appear to grow in hostility, once again making overtures at a threat that he will never follow up on (even considering he could very easily follow Sapnap to find Kinoko and could as such attack it quite simply even with just, a couple flint & steels tbh)

An interaction with Eryn where he makes no effort to be hostile at any point, hiding behind his shield and then exchanging items when Eryn offers them. The entire time, c!Dream's actions are defensive and purposefully nonthreatening and at no point does he attempt to engage a fight--even when not asked for payment, he gives a valuable item in exchange. Clearly more an attempt to be friendly than any outright hostility, though he is also obviously wary.

Daedalus also quite self-explanatory--again, it should be emphasized that letting Sam go in any capacity with any lives is explicitly an act of mercy. Left alone, Sam would have died in the prison for good; he set his spawn in the prison, a fact Dream would've known when he escorted him out. He makes a lot of threats, including some that are quite incoherent, and at the end he kills Sam once and then escorts him out of the prison grounds alive. Interestingly enough, conversations in Daedalus also seem pretty explicitly from a perspective of trying to get c!Sam to understand him in some respects--like, c!Dream isn't seeking division here. Even in consideration of the fact that he needed to get the keycards, c!Dream's continued emphasis on trying to get c!Sam to see him is...interesting, in view of how much of what went wrong being explicitly because of c!Sam's betrayal.

He warns Bad and Skeppy away from the prison shortly after beginning to reside there on a permanent basis. He gives them quite a sum of gifts (iirc, a block of netherite and a totem of undying) despite firing arrows at them; even though he has a reason to be aggressive towards c!Bad as one of the prison guards (something both c!Bad and c!Skeppy point out) he makes no effort to kill them and outright gives them valuable items while warning them to stay away from the prison

scrapped lore, whenever it was meant to happen, was an obvious "revenge" attempt against quackity...which goes, badly. a clue into the State that he was in in terms of his revenge quests. also, whatever interaction he has with c!wilbur later, obviously c!Wilbur doesn't end up worse for wear physically from it.

In inconsolable differences, c!Dream is more preoccupied with keeping a "feeling" of power over c!Wilbur over taking outright control over the room and therefore complies with c!Wilbur's orders. He does attack, but despite having more than the necessary means to kill both c!Wilbur and c!Tommy while he's there, does not do so. Neither does he manage to keep them trapped in the prison, something that he absolutely could've done if he so chose. Instead, he values a (imaginary) symbol of his continued alliance with c!Wilbur over any kind of hostile action, imprisonment, or killing of either person (and explicitly values c!Wilbur's life over just about everything, there.)

In his interaction with c!Foolish, he's outright trying to get c!Foolish to consider him beyond what other people have said about him. He's trying to establish some form of an alliance and offers...well, quite a lot in order to have one (in order to have a five minute warning of c!Quackity's location. like, he's putting himself in c!Foolish's service quite explicitly here, offering to become his hitman or bodyguard). He's obviously wary, but also obviously trying to be friendly and largely interacts with c!Foolish by trying to establish a rapport, not by trying to threaten him into something or attack him in any way. Even with c!Sam, the amount of outright threatening behavior from c!Dream isn't all that large--mostly, he's being petty? You could make an argument about c!Dream's vague threat to c!Sam's island, but clearly Sam loses no lives from Dream in any interaction they might have after they leave the summer home.

I consider the whole interaction with c!Aimsey canon bc literally everyone was playing as their characters there--c!Dream outright goes out of his way to try and protect a total stranger here with no obvious personal benefit. He literally inserts himself into the conflict to try and prevent c!Aimsey's death, which is kinda wild for someone to do as someone who allegedly wants people to die on the server. He attacks (and even kills c!George) c!snf here, but it's all in a scene where they get distracted from their whole "blowing shit up" moment because they want to chase c!Dream, and c!Dream specifically uses very little melee combat here--a lot of ranged stuff, which is far from his specific specialty. Further, there's a scene in this fight where c!Dream is acting entirely defensively, backed up against a wall with his shield in front of him as c!snf attack, and at the end he just runs away--all behavior that doesn't seem to be about killing anyone or profiting from anyone's deaths in any way.

LN5, threats similarly nonsensical, and he dips as soon as things start going south. For all of his seeming confidence, he's not the one that continues the chase in an attempt to kill c!Quackity, and the fight evidently freaks him out considering how he ends up not realizing he's being stalked by c!Tommy and then hides in the prison for a solid while (while still being stalked by c!Tommy)

Despite apparently wanting them to decide who to die in the saw trap (which had a premise that is frankly, quite hard to believe), c!clingy are given the exact items that could've facilitated their escape. He certainly could've killed both or one at any point in time, even if he wanted a message to be spread to the server (something easily done with one guy)--instead, he monologues at them, then conveniently leaves so that they can get away (and they could've with the literal items he gave them if tommy didn't burn their food.) When c!Tommy returns the following day, c!Dream makes it clear he expected both of them to have gotten out

Despite being clearly unable to stand c!Tommy, blaming him for most if not all of his problems on the server, and outright saying to c!Tommy that c!Tommy would never agree to help him (after they had a shouting match literally one day ago), gives quite the sales pitch to get c!Tommy on the same page as them.

I'm probably missing stuff, but you get my point--even when presented golden opportunities to kill off a player post-prison, c!Dream doesn't take it. He outright spares c!Sam when he could've easily died from the Revengers' tactic. When meeting with strangers, he prioritizes establishing a friendly rapport with them through things like gifts over, in his distrust, treating them badly so that they're scared of him and therefore don't fuck with him yadayada. His behavior, instead of exuding an aura of anger and vengeance and vying for destruction, tends to send a message of trying to be outright unthreatening, please-don't-attack-me. He's not going everywhere holding his big fuck off axe, he's seeing a new person and ducking behind his shield.

Oftentimes, I feel like this quote is pulled or paraphrased from No Way Home to show how c!Dream has become distrusting of people, vindictive, post-prison

And if that means we have to kill everybody— and ev— everybody that doesn't wanna go along with what me and Punz have to say? Everyone that doesn't want to figure it out? Then, fine! You can be simple-minded and you can die simple-minded. But! If you wanna actually know what's going on in this world, and you wanna fix it, and make it the best that we can be, and live forever? Then they can join us.

And while I'm not saying we should dismiss the whole quote as just being disingenous bluffing, I think when taken into the context of post-prison c!Dream's actions (or, well, c!Dream's actions as a whole) as well as his actions in the finale itself (such as his appealing to c!Tommy in the next stream), rather than putting the emphasis on the idea of "everyone who disagrees with me should die," c!Dream seems far more preoccupied with the idea of trying to find people who are willing to work with him to "fix" everything. People who will help him make it so that they can "live forever"--a desire he expresses in the fourth finale stream as well.

like, it's not to say that c!dream isn't vengeful. he is. i mean, i'd say moreso than vengeful, he's angry--just like how a lot of his overtures at friendliness are so deeply rooted in fear. the prison made him angry and the prison made him scared, and the anger has to be repurposed into revenge because revenge is power that he certainly didn't have when he was on his knees begging for mercy. but far from being closed off and unwilling to work with other people post-prison due to his experiences in Pandora (which. would make sense. i mean. like, he was left in there, and tortured, and betrayed. anger and revenge and a general distrust towards everyone and a desire to destroy a world that condemned him would be very easy to understand in this scenario), i'd say c!dream's interactions with people post-prison scream of a general lack of a desire to actually go through with killing people. hell, he even revives c!tommy--c!tommy! who just killed him! who c!dream outright blames for like, basically ruining his life! when revivals are literally apparently destabilizing the universe!--shortly after killing him. generally, he meets people who are dealing with him aggressively with a desire to flee moreso than with murderous intent (in genuine finale 2, for example, this guy was sure more focused on running the fuck away than he was on killing either of c!clingy), and even moreso deals with other people on the server by acting defensively and even in a manner that seems deliberately designed to get them to be more willing to work with him, or at least deal with him in a friendly way. despite his paranoia and how deeply pandora cut as a betrayal and his obvious wariness towards all people as a result (there's hardly a single interaction on the list above, after all, that doesn't have c!dream's obvious fear of people leaking all over the damn carpet), he seems to be much more focused on the idea of finding possible allies than he is on the idea of killing everyone possible.

which, i mean, makes sense. as he himself states:

(me too tubbo)

the saw trap, rather definitively, was 100% bullshit top to bottom. i mean, come on now. dream literally gives him steak that they could've used to depress the pressure plate, and he's completely unsurprised about the two of them surviving. plus he literally added a bonus "WE'RE DOING THIS BECAUSE WE'RE EVIL" thing. like, laughably fake.

along those same lines, i mean, the "we killed vikk and lazar in every possible way for months" doesn't seem credible in the slightest. first of all, what months? unless they were doing so post-prison (and they continued to do so...after they supposedly found out about revivals causing instability???) -- and the whole point of bringing that up in the first place was pretty much just to set up for the saw trap. any and all death experimentation seems kinda limited by the fact that XD was apparently getting pissed over it

speaking of which, have we considered how funny it is that like there's a good chance that fewer problems were caused by the revival experiments compared to like. foolish dying from fall damage while building. bc foolish SURE DID DIE A LOT

i also want to bring up the "bring an army here to fight against us" moment just because it's ... so overt. i don't think it's a lie, but was dream like more than heavy-handed in hinting at what he wanted tommy and tubbo to do? holy shit yea

like, it's giving "talking about putting c!tommy in the prison" levels of overt.

the rest of it gets...a little murkier though, and in part because c!dream seems to at least, to some degree, contradict himself? i mean, what he says about death being permanent is SUCH a glaring example of this

like, he's clearly got some strong opinions on the permanence of death and revivals that he brings up. a lot. but at the same time, death being impermanent is also a problem...

...and specifically, a problem in the eyes of the god here. which is accurate--we've seen XD specifically make a whole Thing about how he needs souls, how he needs death. (though it does look like he's also kinda...beholden? to something? when he mentions that too, which is interesting.)

and look, here, too, when talking about death:

like i think it's pretty undeniable that c!dream...doesn't. actually want people to die. he's got an issue with this whole death thing. like--look at what he says, even, about the fact that they have to kill everyone? he literally calls it a problem. hell, when he could, by all means, technically get "closer" to his goals by killing c!clingy, he doesn't take it. he even revives tommy after killing him.

he's very explicit about not wanting death in the final stream, as we see here:

i've seen a few interpretations about what dream wanted being to, essentially, become immortal with punz after killing everyone. and i always didn't really agree, though i couldn't pinpoint specifics either--for one, the specific point of "only you two will be left" is something that tubbo points out first, not either dream nor punz. further, when dream mentions who would be left after "killing everyone," he actually specifically doesn't say that it's about the dream and punz show and the dream and punz show only--it's a choice of "join us in our research or die."

further...well, it's rather antithetical to what have been c!dream's stated motivations the entire time, right? dream doesn't want peace on the server in terms of just having like one (1) other person around that agrees with him or whatever. and again, there have been some mentioned contradictions just from these two streams alone. but looking at the contents of these last two streams again, and especially looking at the focus c!dream has on "everyone living forever and being friends and being invincible and the server being completely vanilla again" plus the return of mr. "end justifies the means", i can 100% see some kind of plan where--facing an immediate world reset--c!punz and c!dream decide to go for plan "kill people to appease the god while gathering anyone that's willing to do research with us to Figure Out How To Fix Things." the emphasis that c!dream presents on death not mattering, calling the revive book the "greatest thing" that's happened to the server, even, going "yeah it might hurt, but we can go back" seem to suggest that everyone that was babyjailed in limbo in the meantime would then be able to be revived after they idfk kill god or whatever.

like, they specifically mention the end (which was replaced, apparently, by the XD clock world) and how it's been "corrupted," c!dream specifically mentions how "god" will end the world if they don't kill people

(but also mentions how death is part of the reason why the world needs to be reset)

punz and dream speak multiple times about how they HAVE to figure things out right how important it is to understand revivals and death and life and Understand This World and how knowledge is more important than anything but at the same time

what dream's mentioning of his goals (besides a very nebulous "research") doesn't seem to have much to do with an actionable plan to do anything at all -- he talks about focusing about quackity and sam and wilbur (which. i mean. we all know that kinda didn't go the greatest for him)

and specifically right we know that XD resets the world, that the world keeps ending and restarting cycles etc etc, and the revive book + time travel + egg + death book + limbo all of that seems to be connected to XD, maybe the other server supernatural stuff as well, though it's a bit nebulous as to what specifically was like caused by him. but it's also interesting to me, right, how c!dream seems to waffle a bit on things that "matter"--death and revival being the two most glaring examples. on one hand, dream is saying that revivals are where they fucked up by introducing instability (that they now have to fix through killing people):

but at the exact same time, dream and punz BOTH conduct revivals during these final streams, with the revival with tommy seeming particularly superfluous:

and along that same line of reasoning, dream both talks about death as being like the key to all of this, right, the idea that they have to kill everyone to reset the balance that death is more important that any of them imagined etc, that they have to kill in order to solve things, that Death Is The Answer--

but at the same time, in the next stream, dream makes a specific point about death...not mattering at all

and speaking of not mattering...that comes up. A Lot. c!dream specifically makes a lot of mentions about things being inevitable, or not mattering, throughout these streams:

like. there's a certain ... nihilism? to c!dream here? that's kinda impossible to ignore. and obviously, in their research into XD, it's very possible that the idea of the server as a loop or cycle would've come up, the idea that this world will end and then start into a new one etc etc. that no matter what they do, eventually XD is going to pull the plug and reset everything.

lmanburg, at the very beginning, he clearly saw as unreasonable, kind of stupid and delusional, but still something to be treated with a degree of caution...which is how he saw c!wilbur, this guy who was making really fucking preposterous claims (what the fuck do you mean new server. like for this guy he might as well have been declaring that this place was a whole new planet while making pretty overt moves towards war if you disagreed with him) but also had gathered quite a following and wasn't going to take no for an answer. l'manchildburg and all that

later on, c!dream sees lmanburg more neutrally and even positively when his relationship with c!wilbur improves. this is most telling when he talks abt lmanburg to c!wilbur at the beginning of pogtopia and during vassal--of course it's up to debate what c!dream's concrete plans were, but i'm pretty solidly of the belief that he wasn't planning to get rid of lmanburg at this point as i outline here. c!wilbur was willing to be reasonable and even peaceable, and so the same applied to the faction he ruled over

c!dream repeatedly expresses that his disagreement with c!schlatt is what causes him to align himself against manberg, and downright says that with c!schlatt at the helm he doesn't believe that peace between their two nations can be maintained. this is a constant, honestly, down to when c!schlatt dies--c!dream never truly thinks well of manberg, and it seems quite obviously to be a direct result of who was in charge

after c!wilbur dies, despite expressing positive sentiments to c!wilbur later on in statements such as "the smartest person on the server" and quoting him during doomsday and the like, c!dream's assessments of him as a leader as he expresses to c!quackity are quite negative. which is interesting, when you consider that part of the angle c!wilbur takes up during vassal is specifically that he'll be ambitious like schlatt the way c!dream explicitly says he felt threatened by in his sales pitch to convince c!dream to blow up lmanburg with him. c!dream wanting lmanburg to be blown up at the same time as its "ruler" (as c!dream clearly did see c!wilbur as the authority over lmanburg) wanted it to be blown up...hm.

c!dream expresses sentiments along the lines of willing to cooperate and coexist with c!tubbo especially after c!tubbo "puts the good of the nation" first instead of choosing to pursue a conflict against c!dream. to c!quackity, c!dream talks about c!tubbo to be fair and reasonable, qualities he evidently values in a ruler

in stark opposition, c!dream's disagreement with mexican lmanburg has everything to do with his perception of c!quackity as a reckless, conflict-seeking (and that's the common thread, really. c!wilbur sought conflict in the revolution and then with his painting himself as chaotic and ambitious and seeking destruction, and c!schlatt was ambitious and murderous in a way that had very clear consequences in terms of starting conflict on the server) ruler with little regard for the consequences of his actions, as he says repeatedly over the course of the mexican lmanburg debates

finally, c!dream explicitly outlines c!tubbo's "failings" as ruler as being the breaking point in terms of green festival + doomsday and specifically says that c!tubbo is willing to let people in the cabinet walk all over him, as well as the fact that c!quackity is more of a president than he is. when we consider c!dream's already very negative assessment of c!quackity as a leader and how c!quackity had pushed a lot of the decisions that really made nlm a threat that was impossible for c!dream to reconcile with (especially with moves such as the butcher army), some of the underlying sentiments behind well the overt villain-isms of c!dream's speech here do seem to come to light.

and for some other moments that aren't quite as Big but still reflect this same idea--c!dream explicitly rejects nlm if it was under c!tommy's rulership but is willing to coexist with c!tubbo as president, both dethronements have a lot to do with c!eret and c!george's actions having negative consequences for the whole faction by compromising a neutral stand (and therefore compromising the quote unquote neutrality of the entire faction and possibly embroiling everyone into conflict), c!dream's willingness to work with the badlands, the difference between the factions that c!dream ignores post-prison versus the one that he attacks (las nevadas, obviously). it's interesting to me how often c!dream seems to view factions as almost being extensions of the will of the person leading them and how his opinion of a faction an his opinion of its leader bounce off of each other, yknow?

Here's a post by Airrec and Bluebell that goes into a lot, definitely worth reading in terms of timeline shenanigans. With all that said, here's a few dates:

some time before november 6th - revive book deal

nov 16th - it's november 16th what can i even say

nov 18th/19th - c!Dream frames c!Tommy for stuff with c!Puffy

nov 23rd - vikk and lazar join the server

nov 28th - george's house burned

nov 29th - probation begins, date set for exile negotiations, dream says that he wouldn't push for exile if he got mellohi

dec 2nd - spirit speech

dec 3rd - dethronement

dec 4th - tommy exiled, prison commissioned

dec 6th - egg discovered, mexican lmanburg conflict, prison construction begins

dec 15th - dream gives techno map to woodland mansion and warns him of butcher army

dec 16th - tommy leaves exile, technoblade execution

dec 17th - dream and punz conversation about staged finale

january 5th - green festival

january 6th - doomsday

january 20th - staged finale

for this time period, there's a few things we know for sure, now:

c!dream didn't intend to put himself in prison at first but did plan on doing so by the time he told punz about staged finale. this is also when doomsday was for sure in the cards

c!dream created the prison largely due to his anxiety because of the supernatural that was specifically triggered by the revive book deal

c!dream was publicly known as having "no allies but punz" by the time of dethronement

c!dream takes on the stereotypical villain role in full during green festival, immediately after securing both discs

vikk and lazar experiments had to happen around/after doomsday, as the last time they're seen around the server is january 4th

with all of this in mind, there are a few things that we can pretty confidently conclude:

c!Dream was obviously thinking about the prison before he specifically commissioned c!Sam for it, but in the early days of the prison's conception (and judging by similar wording that we see him use on the day that the prison construction started) it is reasonable to believe that in universe, c!Dream did not yet plan to put himself in the prison when the prison construction began, and therefore staged finale was not yet his end goal

c!Dream's investigation of the supernatural could not have yet occurred at the beginning of his plans re: exile, as even if you consider the idea of vikk and lazar experiments happening earlier than their last known sighting on the server, they literally didn't join the server until november 23rd or so--and c!Dream's starting to frame c!Tommy for things happens November 18/19th, which leads into the exile conflict when c!Tommy does do something by burning down George's house

c!Dream's plan with exile seems to center heavily around the discs, as we had originally concluded. This is evident in his telling NLM that he wouldnt push for exile if he was given Mellohi, the focus on the discs during Spirit Speech, and his obvious change in demeanor once he was given the disc in Green Festival. The focus on separating Tommy and Tubbo (as Tubbo had Tommy's disc) during exile + after obviously went into this--however, as staged finale was, as we've established, not yet planned at this time, c!Dream evidently wanted the disc for other purposes

while it's impossible to say when c!dream switches gears for staged finale completely, it's obvious that this was the route that he had chosen when he brought the plan up to c!punz (when he already quite evidently had thought through several parts of the plan to put himself in the prison: he talks about something he'll do that'll make everyone hate him (doomsday), the need to stage a falling out (the finale), and considerations about the prison being "put to use") on December 17th. his reasons for deciding to commit fully to staged finale are hinted at by this conversation as well by his mentioning the failed execution of c!Technoblade and how that has reinforced the idea that they will now be after him the day before (December 16th) and c!Dream specifically establishing a rapport with c!Technoblade on December 15th by giving him a heads up on the Butcher Army seems to indicate his starting to act with the intention of possibly going through with staged finale in the future

more speculative side of this under the cut (warning. it's long and rambly and definitely less coherent than i usually try to be, which isn't great considering i'm already quite wordy and incoherent):

(i promised this post so long ago rip)

There is a lot to say about c!Dream and the Pogtopia/Manberg era, especially because so many events in this period of time define the future of his character in very long-lasting ways. Much discussion has been focused particularly on the Vassal discussion and c!Dream's loyalties after--today, though, I want to focus on c!Dream's priorities before that discussion and what they might reveal about his goals.

First, I want to quickly link my post I made on c!Dream during the L'manburg Revolution, which establishes a few of the key c!Dreamisms that influence my read of him particularly pre-November 16th. Second, I want to point to a clip in the drodcast that emphasizes that the reason why c!Dream switched sides to Manberg was for the story's sake and in-universe therefore only happened because of the revive book deal, further indicating that the character had no prior intentions to turn against Pogtopia.

All that being said, there are a couple main points I want to make about (how I interpret) c!Dream in early Pogtopia.

c!Dream was already pretty obviously acting alone/isolated at the beginning of this arc

c!Dream was always genuine in his support for Pogtopia

There is more reason to believe in c!Dream's assertion that he wanted "L'manburg to be something" than the opposite

Starting wth point one, I think it's important to acknowledge how c!Dream emphasizes the idea of secrecy repeatedly during the beginnng of the Manberg/Pogtopia arc. He talks about how he has to provide support "from the shadows" in the Tyrant book, and he expresses similar sentiments when he gives supplies to c!Techno around this time as well. At the very least, when he was supplying aid at this point in time, he was pretty damn obviously acting alone--we see this as the arc progresses as well, when c!Dream helps c!Tommy in the Battle of the Lake and when he meets with Pogtopia during Vassal, for example.

Of course, acting alone doesn't necessarily mean isolation, although taking on a big + potentially dangerous task alone can lead to feelings of isolation regardless of that fact, but if we take a look at c!Dream at this time...sure he has friends, and people he's friendly with. But in terms of actual allies, he's kinda been on his own? c!George was decidedly part of Manberg due to the coalition at the start of the arc, and as far back as the Elections we see him claiming that he was "under Dream's rule" to explain that the decisions weren't his own in the Revolution.

Even though c!George obviously does not have high opinions of Wilbur and Tommy and their whole deal re: independence, we also see that no one really protests when c!Dream is called the "leader of tyranny."

And outside of this one debate, when we look at the actual events of the server...c!Dream enters into a few conflicts after the Revolution, all of which were not initiated by him. In these conflicts, he repeatedly has his items used as blackmail against him w/ the discs being the cited justification in a lot of cases (discs that were, once again, legally traded to him). And as far as these conflicts go, in terms of actual allies? There's really no one consistent at all? c!Sapnap outright teams with c!Tommy to get Dream's stuff until he turns on c!Tommy when he realizes opposing Dream isn't a good idea for him. c!Dream gets pulled into c!Sapnap's mess with the Pet Wars and therefore helps him hide their pets when the fight escalates--but at no point does c!Sapnap really outright support c!Dream in a conflict that involves him. c!Skeppy is also out here mostly in it for his own gain and was the one to steal Spirit's leather (from his. grave 😭) in the first place, like. Consistently, when c!Dream is involved in an actual conflict, he acts alone--before the Manberg/Pogtopia arc even begins. Mix in the fact that L'manburg was largely seen as an independent entity despite its technically being a part of the Dream SMP (and therefore Dream having to act accordingly) and the way that like the fandom, the L'manburg Revolution's aftermath brought in a lot of new members that further solidified the narrative in-universe (just like how a lot of new fans joined after the L'manburg Revolution, especially bc of the SAD-ist animation, which all served to solidify the l'manburg = heroes connection in the fandom as well) and the idea of c!Dream as the "bad guy" of the Revolution went relatively unchallenged (along with c!Eret, who obviously never shook the title of traitor.)

c!Dream was lacking in consistent allies and largely dealt with conflicts involving himself alone pre-Manberg/Pogtopia (gestures at how it's me and you against Dream was reiterated repeatedly), and when Manberg/Pogtopia began he had even more reason to act by himself. He was acting against the peace treaty by helping Wilbur and Tommy in Pogtopia, and a lot of the people he knew were friendly with or outright were a part of Manberg (George was a literal part of the government at the beginning, Karl was looking for wherever he could get an advantage, Sapnap is. Sapnap and shit was happening like the Battle of the Lake which literally involved kidnapping Niki, as well as other things)--c!Dream, at this point, is already used to working alone and had many reasons to continue doing so.

Onto point two: c!Dream was genuine in his support of Pogtopia throughout the arc until the point of the revive book deal. I want to point to the clip again from the drodcast, specifically how Dream says that before the conception of the revive book, c!Dream "literally switched for no reason we had no reason for me to switch [outside of the revive book]." This, plus the fact that what canonically does end up driving the decision to "switch sides" by publicly supporting c!Schlatt on November 16th is the literal revive book, all points to how c!Dream wasn't exactly going to side with c!Schlatt easily. It literally takes the whole ass revive book, the item that shatters his view of reality with its implications and was one of the central reasons why he had a paranoid spiral that involved him cooking up the prison for him to consider being on Schlatt's side.

Oftentimes, the arguments around c!Dream in this era and how he was manipulating the situation for his own gain boil down to two main moments where an assertion is made that c!Dream was playing both sides to make them destroy each other, those being Vassal and his speech to c!Eret on November 16th.

The first excerpt, Vassal, happened in early October, and the latter comes from the famous conversation c!Dream has with c!Eret on November 16th. And from these two excerpts, it can seem reasonable to believe that c!Dream's intentions were in the realm of helping both sides destroy each other, especially considering his saying that his plan is "there is no Manberg, there's no L'manburg, there's no Pogtopia, there's just Dream SMP an there's Dream SMP everywhere." But--regardless of whether or not you believe this statement, regardless of whether or not he wanted L'manburg gone from the beginning of this arc, it's undeniable that his actions do not support the claim that he was always planning to help Manberg to sabotage both sides.

The only reason why c!Dream helps c!Schlatt, and by extension Manberg, was the revive book. And this is made quite explicit both in and out of character. This man was calling Manberg L'manburg to Manberg's goddamn cabinet, for god's sake. As soon as the deal with the Election results go down, c!Dream aligns himself with Pogtopia. He supplies Manberg no aid until after the revive book deal and literally warns Pogtopia when he switches sides???? Even the claim that he wanted the two entities to destroy each other doesn't reflect the reality of him knowing that destruction would come at c!Wilbur's hands from the TNT, not from the fight between Manberg/Pogtopia in itself.

Even if you proceed with the reading that c!Dream wanted L'manburg dead and gone and wanted that from the beginning, he quite clearly was helping Pogtopia against Manberg in order to facilitate his goals and was not helping c!Schlatt until the revive book forced his hand.

The third point is the one most up for debate/based on interpretation, but I believe that, based on the information we have, it is more reasonable to believe that at the beginning of Manberg/Pogtopia c!Dream had no plans for the total destruction of L'manburg and didn't necessarily see that as one of his end goals for the server than to say that the opposite is true.

For one, going back to the revolution, c!Dream--even then--didn't have total annihilation of L'manburg as his end goal. He goes into that war knowing that he would give them "technical independence"--allowing them to exist as an entity, hell, allowing them to have 'independence' in some form (although obviously he finds the whole "we are our own server now actually" situation ridiculous). If there was ever any time to pursue the total destruction of L'manburg as an entity, it would've been then, before L'manburg was ever firmly established.

If we take c!Dream purely at his word (a dubious thing to do for sure, obviously, mans is a liar--but at the same time, c!Dream at that time was also a man that was known to generally keep his end of the deal) then c!Dream's motives at the beginning of Pogtopia are quite clear: the Tyrant book establishes the reasons why he opposes c!Schlatt, that he was able to maintain peace with L'manburg but did not feel that the same could be true as long as c!Schlatt was leader, and that "Schlatt is no Wilbur."

Later on, in Vassal, he reiterates these points, openly mocking c!Schlatt in connection with democracy and once again stating that he doesn't see Pogtopia as the bad guys + stating that c!Schlatt, unlike c!Wilbur, is unfit as a ruler because of his ambition.

Later on, when outright questioned about why he supports L'manburg now when he was the one that famously opposed them in the Revolution, he says this:

and obviously, right, he could be lying. I'm not discounting that. But it's rather notable, I think, that when it comes to c!Dream agreeing to give c!Wilibur TNT, that's in response to "I want to rig the city"--a city that, at that minute, was in enemy hands and a force that they were planning on fighting. c!Dream had pledged his allegiance to Pogtopia and specifically set a precedent of himself as an ally that would provide military aid and items (see: the gear he gives c!Techno and c!Tommy, Battle of the Lake, hell, he gives c!Tommy TNT literal minutes before Vassal while all but guarding him when c!Tommy is trying to antagonize Manberg in order to bring them back and keep them from discovering Pogtopia)--his support in this area does not, in my opinion, show clear support for the actual ideological reasons behind why c!Wilbur concludes he has to blow up L'manburg (and in Vassal, we actually see him push against those reasons several times, as shown below.)

And again, whether or not you think his disagreement is genuine or if you believe he was just fishing for information/how serious c!Wilbur actually was, I'd say that his words and action in this scene do, repeatedly, indicate a level of hesitance. He is not jumping the gun as soon as the opportunity presents itself for him to get rid of L'manburg once and for all--he's being cautious. Assessing. So much so that c!Wilbur picks up on it and outright threatens him, which is also the point in the conversation where c!Dream stops arguing back against any of the points that he makes:

And the point I'm making here isn't that c!Dream didn't want L'manburg to be destroyed when he agreed to give c!Wilbur the TNT. I think there does exist proof for this point, including whatever the hell Dream knew that Plan B had to happen...I'm so proud was supposed to mean, but that's not the point I'm specifically trying to make here. Rather, I think that until L'manburg's destruction is specifically brought up by c!Wilbur, there is little proof that shows c!Dream as specifically pursuing it/planning to get rid of it for the sake of a factionless server.

Sure, you can say that c!Dream's ideal server would've been a server without L'manburg on it. You could also say that c!Dream's ideal server at the time was a server where c!Tommy shut up abt the damn discs alread and a server where c!Sapnap stopped rampaging through the pet population on the server--there's a difference between "the ideal" and what he was specifically working towards. And the fact of the matter is, after the Revolution, c!Dream really doesn't have any conflicts with L'manburg itself. c!Tommy? Certainly--largely initiated by c!Tommy for the discs that he literally traded c!Dream during the revolutionary war. But c!Dream is hardly entering into faction conflict--he even says, in Tyrant, that they had peace between their two nations, and that it was C!SCHLATT'S election that disrupted that peace.

And c!Dream's particular dislike of factions is also something that I think has a tendency to get...overexaggerated? Especially because it's one of the foundational tenets of the L'manburg mythos--c!Dream is a control freak that opposed the idea of people getting together to make a "country" without him, etc etc. This is even something that is addressed in the Mexican L'manburg debates:

c!Dream doesn't like factions, true. He'd prefer a united server without them, true. But c!Dream being pushed into taking action against any particular faction really didn't start from him just, hating factions in the first place? There always was some kind of inciting incident. By the time of post-Nov 16th, he quite evidently recognizes that factions are going to continue to be a Thing--he never has any outright conflict with the Badlands, for example, because they don't really engage in conflict with him--and later he practically ignores El Rapids even after the whole debacle that was Mexican L'manburg. When c!Dream says "look you guys were fine because you were just existing" in the Tyrant book and in Vassal, that fits the pattern of how he deals with faction conflict on this server? (See, also, how he generally doesn't go after factions post-prison, despite making some implicit threats: the only faction that he goes after is LN, and even if you consider the fact that he probably had bigger fish to fry with the whole, world reset thing, once again factions don't really matter to him until he's registering them as an explicit threat.)

The Revolution was meant to prove a point, the point being don't fuck with me--a point that c!Wilbur clearly understood and abided by. And after the Revolution, c!Dream really never shows any inclinations of wanting conflict with L'manburg or wanting it gone the way that we see that as more consistent trait later on by the time we get to things like the revive book deal, and Nov. 16th, and especially in his dealings with NLM leading up to Doomsday the unfinished symphony, right?

And, you know, all of this makes sense. c!Dream knows that L'manburg isn't just about L'manburg itself, considering the damn story of L'manburg was established by c!Wilbur in like, what, a day? c!Dream and the Americans (tm) were established as the Enemy even though half of them literally weren't involved at all in the drug van conflict (and members of L'manburg had. Literally fought with c!Sapnap in said conflict??) and L'manburg grew out of that story in almost no time at all. c!Dream has zero reason to believe that the destruction of L'manburg in entirety is even possible--he literally didn't think it was possible in the Revolution! c!Dream's priorities for the server isn't a factionless server, it's a peaceful server--not to mention how he literally saw L'manburg as part of the Dream SMP anyway? As long as L'manburg the entity wasn't starting shit (which they weren't, not until Schlatt got elected and everything went to hell) c!Dream really doesn't have a motive to try and Start A Conflict against them (which is antithetical to the whole peaceful coexistence schtick that he was trying to get at) and really doesn't have much of a reason to think that any of that would even work either, considering how he was quite confident that the L'manburgians would never give up when L'manburg was like. A week old.

Of course, with Vassal and with c!Wilbur going "let me destroy it all" it's obviously perfectly possible that c!Dream was thinking hey, the guy that all of L'manburg respects and sees as leader wants L'manburg gone, this could possibly lead to L'manburg being fully dissolved and the server going back to being factionless and united and for that to motivate his later actions in the arc and his support of c!Wilbur. But Vassal still has to happen first. There really isn't any reason to believe that c!Dream was gunning for L'manburg's destruction at the start of the arc, and c!Dream really had every reason to believe that that wouldn't even be possible (and I mean, NLM had rebuilt itself literally like. In the span of a week? So.) Based on what we see, the most that can really be said imo about c!Dream here is that he's being opportunistic, and even then he expresses a level of hesitance throughout Vassal.

Considering how c!Dream supported Pogtopia from the beginning and only ends that alliance because of the revive book deal and considering how he acted in the time period between the Revolution and Manberg/Pogtopia, I think it's fair to state that c!Dream's statements of his end goal being to return to the "peace" that had existed pre-Manberg through the coexistence of L'manburg and DreamSMP, one side believing themselves independent and the other side believing that they're all part of the same server, was. His original end goal when Manberg/Pogtopia began. He had every reason to support Pogtopia over Manberg (and by extension, Wilbur over Schlatt) when you consider how Wilbur generally was willing to play nice with c!Dream post-revolution, a sentiment rather clearly not shared by c!Schlatt and his expansionist ideals. Even if c!Dream would've preferred a server without L'manburg, his actions as far back as the Revolution indicate to me that the likelihood of his actually creating any plans in that direction is rather small and that his sentiments of returning the server back to how it was in its pre-Manberg state are close to the truth. c!Dream isn't stupid enough to think that destroying L'manburg outright would've suddenly resulted in server peace--destabilizing shit by making everyone mad at him at that point in time really seems antithetical to his goals? It seems more likely to me that c!Dream, in alignment with his goals, at this point would prioritize a peaceful server over a factionless one, especially at a time pre-Manberg nonsense when the whole "L'manburg is an independent nation that Matters A Lot To Everyone" is just so deeply entrenched.

c!dream is very intelligent and very good at PVP and these are well-established traits from the beginning of the server. he is skilled at thinking strategically and therefore is often able to navigate unfavorable situations to him in order to successfully achieve some goal of his. in terms of achieving goals, c!Dream isn't half bad in the slightest! but how do these goals actually work out for him?

in the revolution, c!dream successfully leads his side to victory while minimizing damage to his own people (and, sometimes, minimizing damage across the board: see him telling his men to hold fire to allow lmanburgians to retrieve their items.) the most amount of risk to anyone on his side is during the duel, where he ended up on half a heart to determine the end result of the war. and it's quite undeniable that c!dream wins the war--he gets to set the terms of the peace, gives them "technical" independence as he planned to from the start but says that he and the rest of the Dream SMP will view them as constituents of the greater server and gets both discs after c!tommy offers them willingly. by all means, on paper, a glowing success.

only time passes and as others treat l'manburg as independent, he is forced to do the same. "suck it green boy" becomes one of the most common catchphrases of the server when the independence that was granted them in the book that this statement was written was. literally given to them out of c!dream's mercy? and not out of their victory? he loses both discs AND significant leverage against himself due to various conflicts that involved people stealing from him and/or blackmailing him when he literally wasn't doing anything. l'manburg's ranks have swelled and the story established by it and its independence has long since drowned out any other perspective on the war.

then, in manberg/pogtopia, c!dream enters into the conflict from the perspective of wanting c!schlatt out of power. later on, remaining loyal to c!wilbur, he helps him to successfully pull off the plot to blow up L'manburg and also manages to obtain the revive book through a brief alliance with c!Schlatt. once again, his goals were successfully pulled off in no small part due to his strategizing.

and yet, in the long run, what does c!dream really gain? the revive book is something he evidently didn't know about until the trade with c!Schlatt, and the knowledge of it fucking destroys him. with both c!Schlatt and c!Wilbur dead, he immediately ends up as enemy number one, something c!Wilbur himself states later on. c!Dream, who had never really had any particularly stable alliances pre-manberg anyway, comes out the other side of November 16th even more alone than he had been before, publicly distrusted (not that he was ever really trusted, even by Pogtopia before he officially starts working against them because of the revive book, something that the content creator himself has stated was created purely to explain why c!Dream would switch sides.) the destruction of L'manburg is merely temporary. the plan to blow up L'manburg was c!wilbur's in creation, and considering how open c!Dream is about disliking c!Schlatt, I really hesitate to think that he was going out of his way to ally with guy unless he himself intentionally revealed the revive book to this end (like. c!schlatt is a smart guy, bro.)

c!dream is "secretive" about just about nothing at this time, besides I guess his actually helping Pogtopia (if you can call this guy telling the fucking Manberg cabinet that it's L'manburg, not Manberg, being secretive el em ay oh)--he's open about helping c!Wilbur with the TNT (and c!Wilbur you know, makes a point of doing it in front of an audience both times he asks c!Dream for TNT as well) in Vassal and then on November 6th, and that exact stream is also where he literally walks in the middle of Pogtopia to say hey guys. I'm Betraying You Now. like ???

everything he gains at this time culminates to 1) he helps c!Wilbur successfully pull off a plan that c!Wilbur himself came up with and wanted to pull off and does, to some degree, pressure c!Dream into agreeing with him about--even if c!Dream was going to give him the TNT no matter what, he does display a measure of resistance during Vassal Speech (whether or not you believe this resistance was genuine) and c!Wilbur responds to that by kinda threatening him. So. and 2) he gets the revive book by acting in service to a guy that was clearly established as someone he disliked and feared, and that book is also something that we KNOW scared the shit out of him and like ended up prompting a paranoid spiral that ends with him creating a whole goddamn prison to put himself inside. soooooooo. you know. and all of this is happening at the same time that his losses end up turning into "by the time november 16th rolls around and is over and done with most people either want him dead or are very very close to wanting him dead, cheers!"

then obviously, there's everything from november 16th to the staged disc finale. again, we see c!Dream pulling strategic plays left and right and achieving the goals he has--at this point, often through, uh, less than savory means. through political bullshit with NLM and well, exile, he manages to get the disc during green festival; through helping c!Techno against the butcher army, he manages to obtain a favor; through stuff involving the enderwalk and some kinda deal that im p sure has remained unspecified, he manages to get Cat from c!Skeppy; through experiments with c!Punz, he gets information on the revive book; through green festival, obtaining both discs (and therefore no longer needing to act in terms of political interests with NLM), and establishing common ground with c!Techno, he's able to destroy L'manburg through Doomsday; through having the discs + everyone hating his guts because of Green Festival, Doomsday, and to be fair everyone literally just hating his guts from the outset, he is able to ensure the security of c!Punz, the revive book, and himself by locking himself in prison. A lot of different moving parts, a lot of different goals, a lot of running around the server to get what he needs to get done done at the right times in the right ways, and he manages to con the server and put himself exactly where he wanted to be.

and yet?? and yet??? sure, he pulls off what he wants to pull off, sure he achieves his goals, but in terms of actually winning? he's paranoid and the paranoia just keeps getting worse. the threats to his life and the amount of enemies that want him dead just keep growing in numbers. he finally gets lmanburg blown up for good but you know there's going to be like 4 more factions on this server by the time he gets imprisoned. his friends ditch him and then try to kill him when he clumsily tries to communicate that he's trying to protect them because of the paranoia he has about everyone hating his guts, he explicitly identifies the reasons for people's hatred as having a lot to do with manberg/pogtopia arc where he ends up helping two dead men that aren't around for people to hate anymore, he pulls off staged finale and puts himself in a prison that ends up shattering himself.

like he achieves his goals--even if we're talking about the prison, even if we're talking about the time where things most thoroughly go awry for him because of c!sam's betrayal, you can't say that he didn't achieve what he intended. c!sam kept him alive, and would do anything to keep him alive--he might've been wrong about a lot, but he wasn't wrong about that. and yet. AND YET.

c!dream achieves his goals but where does he end up? miserable and afraid of literally damn near everything and losing his whole mind in the exact prison that he constructed to keep himself safe when in a paranoid spiral about a hostile world that suddenly made so much less sense than he was used to--alone.

yeah i've seen some of this the last few days--staged finale has always been somewhat "controversial" in the lorehead scene, so a measure of disagreement/discourse about it makes sense. especially bc it was honestly a very big change to what people thought was the story and required people to go back and reevaluate a lot, which. people are naturally resistant at doing

but while obviously i think that some healthy discussion about these things is good, and i feel like i have seen a level of...misunderstanding? about it?? which has gone into the ways that people disagree

staged finale refers to the decision to stage the finale. that's it. staged finale just asserts that based on preexisting foreshadowing and based on the sheer level of suspension of disbelief in order for genuine finale to be real, it made more sense for the finale to be staged than for it to have been genuine. how the finale was planned, when the finale was planned, and to what ends it was planned are all things that you can disagree on w/ other staged finale believers/supporters while still being a staged finale believer/supporter, ykwim? if you believe that c!punz faked his betrayal to c!dream, then congrats! you believe in staged finale. oftentimes i see people say things like "i don't believe in staged finale, i think that c!dream faked the betrayal and all and always had c!punz on his side but i think that the reason behind why he did it is [X]" and it's like. staging the finale is one (1) event, not a comprehensive explanation for everything c!Dream does. that would be more in line with something like the "strategist dream interpretation," which in itself does have different readings as well.

people have listed all of the inconsistencies in the staged finale before, but just to summarize--the guy literally could've dipped when everyone came to "defeat" him, c!tommy leveraging his own life is basically no leverage at all when the mans has the revive book, skeppy cage is a joke, c!dream revealing all of his plans when they were maybe 10% carried out (the entire damn attachment vault was empty of items besides stuff that was literally faked, his own damn stuff, and stuff that he stole recently from c!tommy such as the Axe of Peace and the discs) is ridiculously stupid, why the hell does he have blackmail against c!punz included in a bunker that c!punz clearly had access to???? the list goes on.

(as someone who took awhile to be fully convinced in staged finale, what really tripped me up was the stream punz did the day before: here's a post breaking it down that definitely helped me to see it in a different light.)

as far as foreshadowing goes, just off the top of my head: the original prisoner is a constant question from the day of the prison's creation, being something that's even highlighted on the day of the staged finale itself. c!Dream saying he has "the biggest house on the server" and how it's full of redstone. the entire conversation he has with c!punz, obviously. his holding back on the favor with c!techno, the connection between the revive book and the prison that he establishes the day they begin prison construction.

from a logical perspective, the plan as c!Dream establishes it doesn't make any damn sense. c!dream had opportunities to escape that he didn't take for illogical reasons (if the only reason why he allowed himself to stay in a fucking possible kill chamber was to keep c!tommy from committing suicide, then? what about the revive book? what about the fact that he literally kills c!tommy just a few months later????) -- a level of plot contrivance is expected in the medium, but for a lot of people this was just. Going way too far. Unless he literally lost his whole mind (which, to be fair, was the persona being played) there's just. really no other way to make sense of what was going on there, if it was all genuine.

the other argument is a narrative one--people claim that the story established by a genuine finale is cleaner than the story of the staged one, and honestly. it's like. like that's...a feature, not a flaw? the reason why the genuine finale worked isn't because it was logically believable. dream is Dream Manhunt. he's famously hard to nail down, famously good at escaping sticky situations, famously a man that can outsmart his way out of crazy disadvantageous situations--like. just in terms of minecraft skill, i'd wager that most people would think that dream would've technically been able to pull off an escape even when facing down the collection of enemies that were there. like he had 2 stacks of pearls.

narratively, though, the staged finale has a story that's quite appealing on the surface. the "story" of the events from the spirit speech onwards is one that revolved around the idea of "attachment." c!Dream rejects attachment in favor of control in the spirit speech when he says he refuses to let his love for his dead pet control him anymore, and he focuses on the ability to use the discs to control c!Tommy. the fact that c!Dream's relationships deteriorate at this time seems to support this point, and c!Tommy's strength in his relationships being what saves him and damns c!Dream ties everything off into a neat bow. c!Tommy wins because he has friends and c!Dream loses because he doesn't, moral of the story established, hip-hip-hooray. And so it goes.

but when we look at this more in specifics...? it does start falling apart a bit, doesn't it?

although c!Dream supposedly begins his rampage over his existing emotional connections with the spirit speech, his reputation had been in shambles long before that point. c!Dream-as-villain is first established as part of the greater story in the lmanburg revolution, and that's a title that he never really sheds (this point being emphasized in inconsolable differences and the book c!Wilbur has c!Dream write.) Dethronement happens within a day of Spirit Speech, iirc, and on that day c!Quackity specifically points out that c!Dream has no one on his side but c!Punz. the moments where he is more specifically isolated go back to events such as november 16th, where his alliance with c!Wilbur involved blowing up L'manburg, his deal for the revive book, which involved his publicly betraying Pogtopia, or his opposing Manberg to the literal Manberg cabinet. etc. all of these events in the Manberg/Pogtopia era had c!Dream's loyalties erode to end up as just c!Wilbur and later c!Schlatt for the book, two dead men. (and i say eroded loyalties as if pogtopia really believed dream was on their side, like, ever? like he was never trusted in their ranks, even by c!Tommy, who was definitely the person he worked the closest with outside of c!Wilbur.)

if we look at Dethronement itself, it doesn't actually fit the pattern of "c!Dream cuts off his attachment to people in order to make himself uncontrollable" -- in fact, what it does fit the pattern of is. Staged finale? Faking an end in a relationship with people that he does consider important to him, making a public appearance of betrayal + anger to mask an existing connection, drawing attention to their being enemies to hide the fact that they're actually friends--that's not c!Dream cutting anyone off. That's just the exact same ploy that he uses to make people think that c!Punz betrays him (only c!Sapnap and c!George ended up deciding that Nah We're Gonna Kill You Now. Fuck You It's Coup Time. so that's how that ended up.)

Otherwise there's...the Badlands, who were perfectly happy to agree to joining the coup on the day of dethronement if it got them more power and land. c!Techno, who c!Dream wasn't an ally of until later on with the favor established and then doomsday, and who was someone c!Dream was quite openly wary of + afraid of due to his combat skill. c!Dream was alone literally before exile even happened, his remaining "attachments" of c!George and c!Sapnap turning against him like the day he goes on a whole spiel about ohhoho from today onwards i DONT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT MY ATTACHMENTS !!! I ONLY CARE ABOUT THE DISCS !!! like congrats you don't even have a chance to cut off any attachment at all dingus they all hate you and want you dead already.

further, with c!punz, he literally says that they're more than just employer/employee in the infamous conversation they have about planning a betrayal. if the whole point of the story is "attachment good," then why is it that what takes down c!dream is...his one remaining attachment? if his fatal flaw is that he didn't trust people enough, why is it that he loses because he trusted someone too much? it's not like c!tommy had any attachment to c!punz--c!punz explicitly "has a reason" to betray c!dream because of money. he helps c!tommy because dream "should have paid [him] more." none of that reflects that spirit of "attachment" that people claim was c!dream's downfall.

(not to mention how the people present in the staged finale to take c!dream down included people who literally hated c!tommy's guts. like. what brought them together wasn't the power of friendship, it was the power of we hate this green bastard.)

this isn't to say that c!Dream didn't have some relationships that go up in flames because he starts acting particularly cackling evil villain (with the green festival being the specific moment where he really goes full in with that persona, going from someone that was framing himself as having a Reasonable Complaint to literally the joker as soon as he gets the disc from c!Tubbo. It's purposefully played as a "mask off" moment that is meant to make him look like a crazy fucking villain in front of a large audience--whether or not you think that was a choice that he made in character or not, the way his personality changes as soon as he receives the disc is jarring.) In particular, his relationships with c!Puffy and c!Sam come to mind--c!Puffy burns the house she made him when she decides that he's too evil (but, uh, c!dream really wasn't even there for that and didn't ever have a particularly close relationship with her) and c!Sam is among those whose opinions of c!Dream become drastically more negative around the period of time that spans green festival->doomsday->staged finale. but it's important to note that c!Dream's relationships on the server aren't...great, at the time of spirit speech. They're uh, really fucking bad, actually. dethronement only makes them even worse, and all of this happens pre-exile. c!Dream had significant reason to be paranoid and afraid for his life long before exile happens, which is Quite Significant, Actually, when you consider that that paranoia is literally what goes into his decisions to carry out the staged finale + put himself in the prison (which isn't the case for genuine finale, where he's more motivated by a desire to control the server without being controlled himself.) staged finale does solidify c!dream-as-villain for a lot of people, but it never would've worked if people didn't already see him as a villain in the first place. c!Dream doesn't make people hate him with the staged finale; he uses hatred that he already knows exists to put himself in what he sees as a safer position.

and look we could go into a whole discussion about manberg/pogtopia c!Dream (which i do think is way overdue to be fair considering that that's where the paranoia + isolation that motivates him post-november 16th comes from in the first place) but this post is long enough already and i still have to figure out a better way to articulate my thoughts on the matter. anyway. carrying on:

people still have different feelings on why he carries out staged finale in the first place, but what we do know for sure is that it was meant to protect punz and protect the revive book. by firmly establishing that c!punz and him were on opposite sides, he keeps the revive book safe and both of their lives safe by extension: as long as no one would kill both of them at the same time, they had a means of reviving the other if need be and obviously had the information on how to raise people from the dead secure. which was important to them. and otherwise...c!Dream is paranoid. c!Dream is very, very paranoid, and this paranoia goes back at the very least to when he learns about the revive book. the prison, for all the dependence that it required of him, was tailor made (and the construction process controlled by dream every damn step of the way) to make sure that whoever was in the main cell would be safe from external threats. the security of the prison and the prisoner was the POINT. i've seen some assertions that staged finale implies that he predicted everything that happened after he was put in prison and...no? i'd say that c!dream's behavior indicates him being thrown off by c!sam as early as bad's prison visit, c!sapnap's prison visit for sure. c!Ranboo being banned from visitation pretty damn obviously fucks him up, tbh. he has c!punz explicitly out there to keep an eye out on the server while he's in the prison, where he was meant to remain for a period of time that was supposed to be much shorter than how long he ends up being there. likely because, you know, he was supposed to have a consistent and reliable source of information with the outside world in the form of c!Ranboo, and c!sam wasn't supposed to fall off the fucking rails as soon as the prison started. people have also talked about how having the staged finale be true means that c!dream doesn't lose, which...i mean. gestures at the prison arc? that whole thing is a loss so catastrophic it literally destroys him. he's never the same after the prison happens. the false betrayal of c!punz is deliberately like ironically described to c!sam, who was the REAL betrayal that fucking. ruins him. he loses SO MUCH over the course of the prison, which was something he literally designed to keep himself safe from external threat. as far as losses go, i definitely find that a lot more compelling and a lot less contrived than watching c!dream go "whoop de doo guess i have to die now" when he's like 3 pearls away from making a clean escape in the disc vault, tbh.

at the end of the day, i think having some conversation about staged finale is fun! and it's always good to reexamine what you believe to make sure that it still holds water. but i've really not seen much staged finale crit that makes the genuine finale feel favorable as an explanation: logically, it makes a lot less sense. narratively, it relies on a story that the audience wants to be true and acts as a "clean" explanation for everything while not actually taking into account a lot of what was ACTUALLY going on for c!dream (cutting off attachments for the sake of control versus watching people turn against you and becoming increasingly paranoid, for example). and believe them or not, the content creators involved have always asserted that staged finale was the plan from the beginning, not any form of retcon. (and we do know that people have been dodgy about stuff like the "original prisoner" literally since the week that c!dream was imprisoned, so take that as you will.) (okay to be fair theyve been dodgy about the original prisoner since the day that the prison began to be constructed, but the QnA from that first week of imprisonment sticks out to me in particular because cc!Sam had the biggest fucking smile on his face and staged finale would've been planned out and then carried out in entirety by the ccs and the c!s by that point.)