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I don't think my audience on twt or ig could survive the wall of text I just reblogged just now. Also because a part of them are children.. (dunno how much tho)
This nuanced talk makes me so giddy... though I'm kind of sad I'll never get to hear these type of conversations outside of Tumblr or other niche social sites (it's not that niche but its not mainstream either)
My shtick might be drawing country XYZ in a pretty way but my opinions and tastes cannot simply be expressed in one or two pictures yk. Also I'm not normal about G30S, I don't know if anyone actually reads my rants on it.
This just doesn't make sense to me so I want to talk about it.
Obviously, by this, I mean any ships that aren't based on historical/current ties, location, shared history, or anything like that. It's ships that look like one just threw a dart at a map twice and decided that the two countries that it landed on should be dating.
And it makes no sense.
First, how would these two countries have gotten together? The ships don't make sense because there is really no basis for the ship, meaning that any attempt at making them date feels really forced and insincere. There is no friendship, so a romantic relationship feels weird at best and downright toxic at worst.
Secondly, many of these ships utilize a hyperfixation on one event to justify why the two countries should be together. But oftentimes, that event makes the relationship feel more forced. It's the equivalent of saying, "John was nice to Rose once, so even though they have never talked outside of that and don't know each other, they're getting married."
It feels fake and looks strange. If you want to portray a relationship between two countries that do not interact often or have little history together, you need to justify how their relationship started and how it works.
Ultimately, you can ship who you want in this category of ships (I'd say you can ship whoever you like, but considering the number of ships in this fandom that are disrespectful at best, I'm not encouraging that; see my colony x colonizer and enemy x enemy posts for more), but I think people need to put more effort into explaining a relationship, especially when it is more out of pocket.
Using a singular, often insignificant historical event to justify these relationships really doesn't create a basis for a good relationship that is compelling to read about. If you want to create a ship, you need to be wiling to invest the effort to make a compelling relationship that makes sense for both people involved.
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hello i am assuming you are a minor, and i think your blog is great, but i do want to warn you against making blanket statements about ships or characters being objectively âbadâ or problematic to enjoy. itâs okay to enjoy fiction! youâre spreading a fairly conservative train of thought, and in a few years i think youâll come to feel cringe/regret about moralizing over fandom. i wish you only the absolute best
I'm an adult and a historian, and I know that I will not feel cringe or regret over this, as I never made any arguments for a moral perspective, but ones rooted in logic and historical evidence. Moralizing over fandom would be coming from a moral perspective, but all I am asking for is historical accuracy and less racist stereotypes, which I know isn't a moral perspective because my church hates me for it.
Like, I really don't understand were you are getting "moralizing over fandom" from, considering I link evidence with some of my posts for people interested in learning more. Additionally, I have examples of what I am talking about in all my posts, so I am not really making blanket statements, and if I am not including every example, well I do have a life and can't respond to everything.
It is not a conservative perspective to say "let's not romanticism colonialism," "Hey Nazis killed queer people," or "why don't you guys put more thought into creating these countryhumans so you don't fall into harmful, racist stereotypes, and so your characters can be more well-rounded and fun for you and your fans to enjoy."
So, here are the posts that I believe might have prompted this ask (enemy x enemy, colonizer x colony, criticism of the portrayal of Nazi Germany, and dart at map) so you can actually read them, as I think you read the titles and then sent me this ask, because if you actually read them, you would understand that there is no moral arguments there, which makes me think that you are just trying to shut down any facilitation of discussion over WHY racist and xenophobic stereotypes are so prevalent in this fandom and WHY Nazism is not criticized, but instead made a gay man with little or no discussion of Nazi war crimes and all of the harm they have caused.
Often times, knee jerk reactions are more rooted in moral arguments, but for every one of my "rant posts," as I put them. I worked on them and proofread, as well as sending the rough drafts to my server to make sure my arguments all made sense, therefore decreasing personal bias in my arguments.
Anyway, with that out of the way, let's break down why I am not making moral arguments, just to help you understand.
First, the ships. It is not a moral argument to say that it is problematic to ship colonies with their colonizers. Thatâs a factual one because like it or not those colonizers created systemic damage to many, many countries, and if you research the politics and history of those countries, most of the time those former colonies donât have a positive relationship with their colonizer. See, thereâs something called a war of independence and thatâs when a colony violently kicks out their colonizer via often bloody and long drawn out wars. You donât seem to understand that concept, but thatâs why a lot of of these ships are weird and donât make any sense because why would they fight a violent war for their independence their rights and their freedoms and then start fucking the guy they fought that war against (See Indonesia x Netherlands or Sunshine Harem). Not to mention itâs just disrespectful to all the people who died for their countryâs rights.
Enemy x enemy is the same concept. Saying ships donât make sense saying or that something doesnât make sense isnât a moral argument. Itâs just me looking at something and saying it doesnât make sense. For example, I think your ask makes no sense but thatâs not a moral argument. Thatâs just me saying you kind of sound like an idiot. Darts on a map are the same things. Relationships need a basis, and a lot of these ships donât have one, not without ignoring the actual countries and making ship up.
Lastly, saying that people need to be more careful in portraying Nazi Germany. Again, not a moral argument. Thatâs a factual statement.
Letâs not portray the Nazi that killed thousands of queer people in the holocaust as a gay man. Letâs not portray the Nazi that saw Slavic peoples as lesser and started a war with the Soviet Union that killed 20 million of their citizens and say that heâd be fucking the USSR. Letâs not pretend like a character that is the personification of Nazism can be redeemed.
Those arenât moral statements, those are facts. And, as somebody whoâs currently living in the United States, portraying Nazism as not being as bad as it is and portrayed as something lesser and less violent than what it is is the reason why so many people will believe conspiracy theories about Nazis, will believe that Nazis arenât bad, will fall into right wing Nazi spaces because they think âoh this character that is Nazism is good so this ideology must not be that bad.â
Iâm not telling you that youâre a bad person. Iâm saying you need to be careful with what youâre doing. Iâm not policing your behaviors, I am just reminding you that you need to be careful with what you put on the internet and what kind of person youâre making people think you are.
I am not making a moral argument. I am trying to prompt people to think more critically about how they are portraying personifications of countries, and for them to ask themselves "is this a good way to portray tens of thousands of people."
Colonizer x Colony Ships: Why It's a Bad Portrayal and Something People Should Move Away From
Because these kinds of ships are far too common in this fandom, and people need to learn to recognize that they are incredibly offensive at times.
The Defense of These Ships
Many people defend these ships by claiming that the colonizer country feels guilt over what they did or that they were not involved in the brutality of colonization and were unwilling bystanders. Some claim that the colonization occurred because they "loved" the person they were colonizing and colonizing them so they could be together.
These ideas are, at their core, racist. That is not to say the people who ship them are racist, but these ideas originate in real-life racism, racist propaganda, and racist ideology. White Man's Burden (link) is exceptionally present in this.
These defenses also excuse the colonizer from the consequences of their own actions, excusing them from the ideals of their country to portray them as more innocent. I am not saying they cannot grow; I am just saying that in the 1800s, Britain wasn't going to be anti-imperialist. They don't see their actions through a modern lens and will be assholes (by modern standards) and bigots. They will not be the modern image of progression in those periods. And even if you have them get together after the postcolonial period, that does not erase the pain they caused that country.
It is insensitive at best and racist at worst. Please think things through before you create ships like these. To support my point, I have created a small list of popular colonizer x colony ships. I will go over a bit of the history between the two and why that illustrates why they shouldn't be shipped, as well as any problematic tropes I notice.
Ship Examples and why they don't work
Netherlands x Indonesia
This ship has always confused me. I really don't see much of a basis for it. One, if you have colonies be the children of empires; Indonesia is in a relationship with his parent. Two, even if you don't have that, the Dutch still committed many war crimes in Indonesia, like the Banda Islands Massacre, as well as inflaming ethnic tensions so they could get cheap war slaves, and ergo enslaving many people from the ethnic population. There is also evidence of torture of these slaves and some female slaves being used as sex slaves.
The Dutch's greed for money often led to famines as the local farmers were put under heavy stress, and the coolie indentured labor system was rife with abuses. Many war crimes were also committed during the Indonesian War of Independence. While modern relations are better, it does not erase these crimes, and I think this ship is very insensitive.
Japan x South Korea
Yeah, guys, Japan colonized Korea. Now, while what I am going to explain applies to both Koreas, I am specifying South Korea simply because I see that more.
Let's start with comfort women. Now, if you haven't heard of them, they were women and girls forced into sexual slavery by Japan during World War two. Since Korea was one of Imperial Japan's earliest colonies, many of the comfort women were Korean. They also began a period of Japanization, banning Korean names and the Korean language.
In the modern day, about 79% of South Koreans view Japan negatively, only being beaten out of the most negative perception of Japan by China.
Both modern relations and history show that Japan and South Korea would not be in a relationship, and I don't even think they would be friends. Japan's history with South Korea (and North Korea) has never been positive, and I do not think that this is a good ship, especially considering that their relations are still not great. It is very insensitive to the horrific war crimes that Japan has committed against the Korean people.
Sunshine Harem
This is singlehandedly the reason I made my Philippines AroAceâout of spite and hatred of this pinnacle of insensitivity. This is not only shipping the Philippines with one colonizer but every single person who had ever colonized him (aside from that one period of time during the Seven Years War when Britain was governing the island).
I am going to go through each person and explain why shipping the Philippines with them is bad, even though I really shouldn't need to point out that shipping the Philippines with three of his colonizers is bad.
Let's start with Spain. Now, out of all the people who colonized the Philippines, I know the least about Spain's actions. But, in typical Spanish fashion, war crimes were committed, with massacres being committed, as well as Hispanicization, as well as hundreds of years of revolts against the Spanish. There is no basis for a good relationship with so many years of bad blood. While modern relationships are okay, considering that some people have colonies as the children of empires, it feels a little like incest, or at the very least, having a massive power imbalance.
Next up is the good ol' US of A. Surprise surprise. The United States promised to give the Filipinos independence after the Spanish-American war, and they turned their back on them and made the Philippines a colony. What followed next was the Philippine-American War, a war in which the United States committed several war crimes, such as killing civilians (some of which were children), creating concentration camps for Filipino civilians, and torturing Filipino prisoners through waterboarding (link). This is a small sampling, but it proves how horrible things were.
Not only were there these horrific crimes but there was also a period of Americanization in the Philippines. While the United States did eventually give the Philippines their independence and liberate the country from Japan, that does not erase their record, nor does it abolish the legacy of these crimes. I cannot see the Philippines ever wanting to date the United States because of this.
And lastly, we have Japan. Like in Korea, many Filipino women and girls were forced into sexual slavery. The Japanese also forced Filipino soldiers into concentration camps where tens of thousands of them died from disease and poor conditions and turned the Filipino government into a puppet state. Citizens were also murdered and tortured by the Kempeitai, Japan's secret police.
That is just a summary of the war crimes committed by Japan while occupying the Philippines during WW2. It baffles me that anyone would ship them together. The Philippines would have lived through this. Do you think he would want to date Japan, even if it wasn't the empire of Japan? While Filipino-Japanese relations are much better than they were then, this is still a horrific subject.
Please, just look into their histories.
England x Ireland
Yes, Ireland was a colony of England (and later the UK) for around 800 years, from 1169 to 1918. During that time period, Ireland was subjected to anti-Catholic laws, laws banning certain aspects of Irish culture, Anglicisation, and ethnic cleansing (link), as well as the Irish Famine, which some argue is a genocide. I am not here to get into that debate, but I know pointing out that word will make you pay attention.
Ireland has lost a lot of its culture due to English colonization and laws, and there is a reason why the Irish do not like the English. This ship makes no sense and is insensitive to 800 years of colonization and struggles that the Irish went through in an attempt to keep their culture, language, and identity. There is far too much history for me to list here, but this ship is based on nothing. It is based on a terrible history that far too many people brush aside. Like with so many others on this list, it is insensitive.
Even with modern relations being better, the people of Ireland do not like the English, and this ship, to me, as an Irish citizen, feels like a slap in the face. There is no basis for this ship that makes an ounce of sense.
Israel x Palestine
I have seen this one before. It sickens me, especially with what is currently happening in Gaza. What I hate even more is when people portray it as if Palestine is the instigator of the relationship or that Palestine is forcing Israel into it. I shouldn't need to explain why this ship is horrific and completely senseless.
I kind of wanna share this stuff/sentiment on my other social medias but as a person who used to see nethernesia all the time during my COVID-19 internet countryhumans era âit's almost impossible. It's not ignorant white people shipping nethernesia but my own nationality (Indonesian) and I feel it's insensitive and flat or just rebranded "yaoi" but with countries on it. No fluffy anime trope, seme-uke type relationship can paint over how ignorant it is âlayering those falseties just make the person more ignorant pffft.
Sometimes it feels like people put 0 thoughts when shipping countryhumans ânot saying I'm the best at it or anything, I have terrible taste actually. Though maybe it's because history tickles my funny bone in a different way than most people.
Closes thing I got is Amepan but it's not coloniser x colonised but it gave those vibes during the occupation period.. though they're not since they are both colonisers... yeah
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