Snape Chat Podcast

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Something about Lily and Severus and James and Harry is that they all have the same Patronus. But it's Lily and Severus who match, and Harry and James who match.

Harry idolised his father specifically, felt more of a connection to him, so his being a stag reflects that. Snape loved Lily, so of course his is a doe. That part is simple.

It's Lily and James that interests me. Doe and Stag. At first you'd just go "oh, they match, the patronuses are just gendered to match them". But then look at Severus. His is also a doe. Of course, it's to match Lily.

But here's the problem: Severus is a man. If he matches like James does, then it should be a stag. But it's not, it's a doe. Exactly like Lily's.

It's a bit strange, really. Especially when this is I believe the only known case of gendered patronuses. When Tonks's changed, it was just a wolf. Not a male, nor female. And okay, perhaps it's because there are less obvious gendered differences in wolves, but there's another thing.

Stags and does don't represent the same thing.

The doe is a symbol of beauty, grace, nurturing, and care. The stag symbolises protection and strength (incidentally, it is surprising James is a stag and not a buck, which symbolises more recklessness and energy). So while they are compatible, they are not the same. And as Patronuses tend to have an affinity with their caster, someone having a doe or a stag would be reflection of them, not their gender. Someone kind and nurturing would have the doe, someone bold and protective would have the stag. (This of course is excluding Patronuses that have been influenced by other people, like Tonks' wolf because of Remus. Then again the wolf does fit her too, in my opinion).

Another point for this is Severus Snape. Severus, who is severe, harsh, bitter. Who also has a doe Patronus. Of course, this is because he loves Lily. But that's the thing- it wasn't a stag, it was a doe. For me, that proves that Patronuses do not reflect the caster's gender (unless of course we want to make an argument for Severus being a more feminine character, which is also very plausible due to a lot of symbols of feminity connected to him, but I'm not going down that rabbit hole here). So Severus matches because he loves Lily. And it's a doe, not a stag, because does and stags are not considered the same.

But then where does that leave James? Her husband? Well, there are at least two possibilities in my opinion.

Firstly is that their patronuses actually don't reflect their love. They only "match" because they're from the same species. To me, it seems to be more of a happy coincidence, rather like how Harry first thought his Patronus was a horse and Ginny's is a horse, or maybe it's the qualities that the patronuses represent that led James and Lily to be compatible. Personally I think (and this is completely headcanon) that maybe the patronuses are what led them to connect, considering their patronuses go well together it would have started some conversation. And I don't think it's a guaranteed possibility that Patronuses change based on being in love, it just sometimes happens (I could be wrong). Also, there's the fact that James' Animagus form was also a stag, and again I may be wrong but I believe Patronuses and Animagus forms do match. So his at least is guaranteed to not be that way because of lily, but because of his Animagus form. As for Lily, there are other animals that would reflect what does do, however it wasn't her who was in love, it was James who wanted her, so I feel like it's even less likely for her Patronus to be the one that changed for James. So I geniunely believe their patronuses matching was a coincidence.

The other possibility is that James doesn't love Lily the way Severus does. James went after Lily even though she turned him down so many times, he didn't leave her alone. Severus on the other hand did, when she said she was done. And yes, I've heard the "oh if he loved her so much he should have left his group for her" argument. Did James leave the Marauders? Did he stop bullying people for her? No, and no. In fact, he went behind her back and still bullied people. James had this more selfish love for her in a way (I'm not saying that he didn't love her, just that he was more selfish). Severus was more selfless in a way. He couldn't leave his group (can you imagine what they would do to him if he betrayed them?), and he didn't pretend he did or bother her after that. He put himself in incredible danger to ask Dumbledore to protect her, and agreed to do anything, when he didn't need to (what was Dumbledore gonna do, NOT protect the potters?), and in the end, Severus's love was more self-sacrificing than James, and I think that's why his Patronus is the exact same as Lily's while James is almost but not quite. Severus didn't have that selfishness James did, nor did he have that layer of deceit in their relationship like Lily and James did.

But what if the stag and doe really do match? If the two are considered the same, even with their different connotations, then that still leaves the question of why Severus doesn't have a stag. If all of the above is wrong, then why does Severus have a doe? Well, I do have a theory on that too- Severus's Patronus is a doe because he's the one who aligns with a doe. Which is interesting, considering he's so bitter and angry, but I do think that the doe also symbolises him, or what he could have been. A lot of Severus is focused on the past, on Lily, and probably on what could have been if he hadn't said that one word, if he had done this one thing differently, if this was different, if that was, and so on. The doe, with its gentle, nurturing connotations, may be also a symbol for how he could have been a gentle, kind person if he hadn't been so shaped and scarred by the world, if he had been the person Lily wanted him to be, if he had been like Lily. There's also the phrase "a deer caught in headlights" and how deer are known to be timid and easily spooked- perhaps he's, deep inside, just a mess of nerves. So perhaps Severus could have matched Lily with a stag like James did, but it just wasn't his nature, so it was a doe.

Anyway those are my very messy thoughts. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's a combination of all these or maybe none. I really do think the doe isn't just a reflection of Lily but of Severus too, that he's compatible enough with a doe so his Patronus was able to become a doe too despite having the demeanour of a depressed, moody raven than a doe.

Aside from the obvious writing issues - if it was that important, we'd have been shown in the story somewhere that Lily's patronus was actually a doe, not told by Harry who as far as we know is just guessing; and so it would be made clear that Snape's patronus changed, not just sort of... implied, especially when most people literally can't cast a patronus (Lupin says many adults can't cast a corporeal patronus I think), or that they don't (especially if they're Dark? I can't remember but I'm sure there's a line somewhere about dementors being a natural ally to the "Dark Side" or something, so Snape literally wouldn't have needed to cast one prior to working for Dumbledore, by which point Lily was already in danger).

Anyway in short we have no firm idea from the books alone whether Snape's patronus changed, or that what it changed into represented Lily, beyond Dumbledore sort of implying it did. For all we know Snape cast it one day and Dumbledore took one look, saw it vaguely resembled Lily's, and just ran with it.

It also bothers me that James (whose animagus form would presumably match his patronus bc others' do and bc of external writings by JK I think, which I'm only accepting bc they support what's in the book instead of patching up holes for what should've been in the books) also doesn't cast a patronus. Like how much more galling would it have been for there to be one scene where James and Lily's vaguely matching deer patronuses (patroni?) met Dumbledore when he was in a sneaky meeting with Snape, perhaps also in a forest at night

There's also at least one meta that points out that a doe isn't a female stag, that's a hind - but I'm willing to forgive that JK didn't know enough about deers because I certainly didn't until I read about it elsewhere 😂

But I actually enjoy that as a theory. Like, James and Lily may have had deer-like Patroni, maybe they matched specific species and maybe they didn't, but the idea that Snape's is also a deer (but a different type so everyone including Snape thought it was an identical match) really tickles me. Bc his actions don't align necessarily with a man doing it all for Lily. We can argue (and the one line I like from cursed child also suggests) that he did it to honour what she wanted and transformed himself/his morals along the way, but idk. There's something off about it

It's also just like... bizarre really that the only sizeable interaction we see between james and Lily is SWM and then we're supposed to believe that they're a perfect match or something? Especially when other couples who are shown as "endgame" aren't? (E.g. deer and stag, otter and dog). I'm not personally a strong shipper of Hinny or Romione but I appreciate that they're different but complimentary, and setting one romance up on such shaky foundations to have the metaphorical "perfect match" just seemed like a weird choice when it also seems to imply Snape would match with James, and neither of them wanted that 😂

There's also another meta that goes into more detail about what you said about Snape's doe as a symbol for nurturing etc, and I'll try to find it if you haven't read it already. It argues that Snape has all of those qualities, he just hides or expresses them harshly

Firmly agree with his doe representing what could've been, but I think that's separate to Lily in a way. If he'd had a better upbringing, if he'd had more friends like Lily, if he'd not been in Slytherin, etc.. he was a curious, shy, cautious child. As an adult he's generally physically gentle, with a focus on defence not attack, and protective of his students and his allies. He has a tendency to fawn to powerful leaders and given the choice between fight or flight literally flies one occasion. I really think if he'd been given another chance in life he'd be a doe regardless of Lily 😭 there was a post I think on here about how his represented his desire to be gentle, and treated gently, and it broke my heart

Also I didn't get doe vibes from Lily. Granted, I didn't get otter vibes from Hermione either, but Lily in school was apparently feisty and cheeky and charming, defended Snape, refused Voldemort. I think she's the one less likely to be a doe tbh and something more outgoing 😂

For all we know James was originally something else, then because Lily was a doe because at her core she's pure (imo anyway considering she left Severus because he was with bad people, so she followed her morals over her loyalties and she only liked James back after he became "good" and theres no way Harry's innate goodness came from james ) or maybe because she had protective instincts even as a child (or maybe she was a buck that got into so much chaos it's antlers fell off/j) and because he wanted to be with her his Animagus form became a stag because this was his personality (sad obsessive boi) and his Patronus also matched it, but it was never a doe because he didn't love her in a pure, unselfish way. Or something.

See, there are about a hundred tangled reasons why these three have the patronuses they do. If it was just Deer, then that would have been easier to understand, it would be simple: James and Lily match because they're in love, Severus matches because he's in love with Lily. Done. But they are specific deer, with specific connotations, and that part is the tangle.

As for Hermione's otter, apparently otters are smart, and as a Patronus represent what's hidden, unknown but necessary within the personality (according to the wizarding world site anyway) so apparently that's how it fits.

As for Snape's doe, I reckon it both represents his tie with Lily, who was apparently a doe, but for all we know that could be because Snape's was always a doe too, regardless of how or why the fact that they matched means they did love each other, and it could represent who he could have been- or who he is. Snape whispers to his class instead of yelling- a tactic I've seen recommended to parents to gentle parent by replacing shouting by whispering, which gets the child's attention more and makes them actually listen if they want to hear what you're saying- and when he yells it's not like McGonagall yelling because she's scolding the kids, he's yells when he's absolutely livid. He protects and defends and deflects when in combat (aside from yeeting Lockhart across the room with Expelliarmus, again a defense spell). He moves silently, he glides instead of marching. There are hints of a doe-like personality in him, a traumatised, wounded animal who lashes and strikes because it's afraid and angry.

It's all a tangle, really. Which is fun, but also frustrating to work out sometimes 😂

having done some basic googling of deer and therefore becoming an expert (/s), i have more thoughts of the nitpicking variety.

first, the doe/stag divide:

like i'm well aware this was not what jkr intended and there's likely symbolism i'm ignoring but i'm having fun so let's look at some deer

So James is a stag. I feel like James may well be red deer. At the very least, I feel like visually and size wise this is the deer that can best fend off or corral a werewolf presuming it matches his animagus form, which it likely does:

And if we're going for what JKR likely intended, then Lily would be a red deer too - a (stag or) hart and a hind:

but then we have Snape's doe:

and assuming he's not a kangaroo (that would be so funny a way to stretch the limits of the text, but alas, ron does call it a deer), that probably leaves the smaller roe or fallow (since i think they'd recognise a reindeer), and snape is described as smaller/scrawnier than james and is often diminutive as you say (except for when he's losing his entire shit).

personally i'm partial to the idea that snape is a roe because they're small, solitary and live mostly hidden away in woodlands, mainly coming out in the open in the dark, but that's just me :P

Snape (roe), Lily (fallow), and James (red):

but also can you imagine if after all of this snape was a Muntjac, generally solitary creatures unless living in mated or mother-child pairs, looking like this:

But also what I'm interested in is the fact that a doe's counterpart is a buck. I literally mentioned in the OG post that I'm surprised James wasn't a buck, which seems to suit his personality more (again, bucks symbolise reckless and youthful energy, protective like a stag yes but not quite as wise or regal- which suits what we know of James, arrogant, prideful, and reckless) So what if maybe James was a buck and everyone else mistook it for a stag because the animals are similar and no one would know the difference unless they actually studied on it. We never see James's stag, so for all we know it could be a buck. Just because we see Harry's stag doesn't mean James's was also a stag- if anything Harry's stag would be a perfect representation of the ideal of James he has in his head, while the buck would be more accurate to James himself.

but this is fairly typical for most deer species, stag/doe differences be damned; roe deer are solitary until the bucks chase the does; fallows sometimes only come together to breed (but their social groups/dynamics are largely dependent on environment), etc.

both red deer stags and fallow bucks are likely to rut, but the website does warn: "Rutting stags, in particular, are often pumped up with testosterone, and you could be putting yourself at risk." so they seem slightly worse, are bigger, and have sharper horns (prongs) as opposed to the more rounded fallow antlers

only the muntjac seems to be different in that it doesn't have a set rut/breeding season, and aren't as territorial: "Bucks may fight for access to does but remain unusually tolerant of subordinate males within their vicinity"

also this post is sort of what we're on about but i still wish i could find the meta i'm thinking of

I do still think James was a stag; Lupin says so and I think he'd be marginally more informed than Harry, but there's still room for error. maybe if James had grown into proper adulthood he'd have been as noble as the connotations, but I do like the idea of a buck James. From a more literal perspective, this doesn't sound unlike James in SWM:

only his elaborate display of dominance to secure exclusive mating didn't quite work out in swm, it took a bit longer :P

maybe harry, like lily, is a fallow/buck too? smaller than red deer, fallows live in (depending on the environment) mixed groups, aren't as territorial - and, coincidentally, can be born as late as july, compared to muntjac who do so whenever, and may-june for the others (i'm just trusting the british deer society for all of this)