Stock dog Training: The Journey

Such a late post, but as my first one back to this blog, I need to brag.  Memorial weekend, Crystal took 3rd place in ProNovice at the North Carolina State Championship! I was not there to see it - I had a previous commitment helping out at an AHBA trial, so my good friend and training partner took Crystal along with her and ran her for me.  This was Crystal’s third ProNovice run and both runs prior to this were retires at the lift.  We have been working hard on her outrun/lifts and on her driving.  I am so very happy to know that my girl was able to succeed and place.  

Eve is now 14 months and has started her sheepdog training.  She is a very intense girl with loads of work.  I have high hopes for this girl and am hoping to train her on cattle.  I am lucky enough to have ties to the cattledog community (and that is cattledog as in dogs working cattle, not the breed) that are willing to help and encouraging me to do so.  We will see how it goes!

Quelle in action helping me set sheep for a training exercise.  Man isn't it fun taking pictures of your own dog while holding sheep for someone else’s dog.  :)

You have been warned, this is a rant.  

Ready?

Why is it that nearly every person who has EVER asked me about finding a dog or breeder, turns around and does the complete opposite?  Now, I am not talking about them just plain old not taking my suggestions.  But when you approach me about finding a border collie puppy and are very specific down to sex and color, then - without telling me to stop looking mind you - I find out from a Facebook post that you have purchased something that is only the same breed and sex to what you asked me to find for you????

Am I hurt that you didn't take my advice?  No, not really.  You made your bed, lie in it and enjoy that you are purchasing nothing like what you asked for and nothing like a true representation of the breed.  Oh, and you are already planning on breeding it....  brilliant.  Just another poor breeding program under foot.  

What really angers me is (1) you never had the decency to say, hey I found what I think I am looking for you don't need to keep looking.  I instead find out from a Facebook post of look at what I am bringing home.  And (2) that is not what you asked me to look for!!!!  

I know that everyone's opinions on breeders and breeding choices is different.  But, seriously, you want to tell me everything you want and say you are willing to wait 2-3 years to get the perfect one, and then not even 6 months after you reach out to find something very difficult to find, you don't even bother telling me to stop making inquiries.  I don't get paid to help you.  I do it because I am nice.

No problem!  Happy to help out and good luck.  As to what training you can do without livestock, make sure you have a good lie down and recall.  If your dog has herding or even prey drive, these two things become very difficult to do when they are on livestock at first.  So really work on it - call out a lie down when you are just roaming around your yard or a park and get it instantly - not them coming to you and laying down, but just a good immediate drop when you call it out.  Recall randomly.  

You can also test these two commands, especially if your dog is ball driven.  Work so that you can throw a ball and call out a lie down or a recall BEFORE they get the ball and get that response without the dog rewarding itself with the ball first and then giving you the command.  Make it so that when your dog is MOST excited, they will give you those two things.  Don't forget though, reward them!  (and I don't mean treats all the time)  The quicker he gives you the behavior you asked for, the quicker you release him to get that ball (or whatever you are using that is super exciting).  It is a self reward to finish the task.  So if he gives  you a lie down immediately, do not hold him down any longer than  3 count.

Don't expect your dog to do those perfectly on livestock even if they are proofed, but you will be able to get there with more ease if your dog already has some experience being stopped or called off mid task.  

There are a couple of resources in finding someone.  I can not say they all take students, but you can always inquire.  Check with:

North East Border Collie Association (NEBCA) has some fun novice clinics and trials.  If you check their directory, you will find several people you could contact.  http://www.nebca.net/welcome.html

Found this website that has some names and contact info.  http://www.northeastherdinginfo.com/trainers.htm

And of course, little hats (when ordinary humiliation just isn’t enough!)  http://www.littlehats.net/wannabe/instructor-ne.html

You can also check out herding trials near you - NEBCA and USBCHA (as well as AHBA and AKC if you are more inclined for those venues) keep a list of trials as calendars.  Trials are great places to see herding in action and make contacts.  It also shows you a bit about how handlers conduct themselves.  If you attend a trial, remember to be very polite, compliments are always nice (about a dog or a handler) and try not to approach a handler with a dog waiting to enter a field.  They like to get their game face on and get their dog focused so it is not a good time to approach then.  The contacts listed on trial information (may be listed as contact or trial secretary) are always great to give a heads up that you are attending and can introduce you to people you should meet.

Something else to think about is, IF your dog is from a breeder, they may be able to point you in a good direction as well.  Lines of dogs can have particular traits that may make them better to be trained under certain types of handlers/trainers.  

**Added:  And yes, they brave the cold!  Herding happens no matter the weather.  I know several people that actually use these winter months for training and they are in Canada - so they spend this season training up dogs for the trial season in the spring.  So no matter the season, it is always worth contacting.

Thank you very much!  I have a love for working dogs as well and feel it is vital in the working/herding breeds to keep that ability alive.  I am more than happy to answer your questions.

How I got into this is actually a pretty long story, so be prepared.  I am a Veterinary Technician and, when I changed to a new clinic, I actually started working with a vet tech and a vet tech student that are Border collie people.  The tech is a performance Border collie breeder that does a lot of AKC and some AHBA trialing.  The student has been into working Border collies (minimal breeding for herself and a USBCHA handler/trainer) for over 20 years.  Now, please note that I worked with them for over a year before I got into this.I worked at an emergency vet clinic and wound up with an Aussie that had come in as a Good Sam found by the interstate.  My tech student co-worker and now very good friend, had me bring the Aussie out to see what he thought of livestock.  He was not talented and he was  not interested unless he could bite.  :)  He was also epileptic and was uncontrollable at 3 medications.  I had him for 9 months before he had a “neurologic event” that resulted paralysis and I elected humane euthanasia.

About a month or so later, that performance BC vet tech (who had since moved away) came back around for a visit and with her was a 5 1/2 month old BC that she was looking to re-home.  That dog was Crystal.  I had thought I would do obedience and agility with her since my Aussie had killed any love or interest in herding (he was that bad).  There is nothing like having to beg a dog to work to kill your enjoyment for the task.  

Now, performance bred as she was, Crystal loved to work, especially birds.  I had a few lessons with an incredible competitive obedience person and really did not enjoy it.  So, I kept up with herding and fell in love with it with Crystal.  I started going to a couple of herding trials with my new friends (some new people in herding and that student tech that has since become my training partner and someone I often go to trials with) and really enjoyed it.

So, the more lessons I took with Crystal and was surrounded by more and more working bred BCs, the more I realized what Crystal wasn’t.  Despite her love for work, she is not very natural or very bold.  Knowing I wanted to really do the big field and not wanting to be stuck in smaller fields and arenas, my then teacher and friend told me both of them had learned to how train dogs and handle dogs by initially purchasing a fully trained dog.  I was able to work a couple of my trainer’s dogs and really enjoyed the feel of working the dog that already knew what it was doing.  It is really hard to figure out when your dog is wrong to correct it, if neither you nor the dog know it.  With a trained dog, you get a lot better feel for when and where you should be or should correct and how to do so.  

It took some time, but I found Beck who was a (then) 4 year old fully trained dog that had been trialed in open.  I purchased him and trialed and learned from him for 2 years.  Now fully into USBCHA trials, where you tend to run 2 dogs in open and have a couple of dogs in Pronovice and Ranch, it was odd to go to trials that were 3 days long (1 run per lower class, 2 runs Open) and only have 1 dog to run for the 1 time in that lower class.  So I started slowly looking to purchase:  a puppy to raise up and train (so thinking about the future to replace Beck as he gets older and to run in lower classes until then) and a well started/Nursery trained dog (to finish training on and make my number 2 Open dog).  

That is how I wound up with Eve (the puppy) and Quelle (the nursery dog).  Now, I travel regularly to put on herding demos, to train, to trial, to help do set out, and in a few years I may even look at getting my AHBA judging license.

At this time, I do not own my own livestock.  That does make it very hard to train up a dog and makes things take a lot longer.  This is why purchasing two trained dogs really helped expedite my own learning and ability to help out at trials and trial at a higher level.  I currently am able to work livestock at my friend’s place (which is only 15 minutes away from me), travel 1 1/2 hours to a place I often train at, or 3 hours to the place I am currently taking lessons at twice a month.  I also have a few places I travel to infrequently for other fields and types of sheep that are often 4+ hours away.

I am, however, looking at renting a pasture close to where I work to put a flock of sheep on that I can use to train dogs more frequently.  So I have been looking at sheep breeds and pricing, fencing options, etc.  I would love to own a fully functioning farm in the future.  I grew up visiting my grandfather who operated a cattle farm (but didn’t use dogs!!!).  And I have always wanted to have something similar.  I entertain the potential of having cattle on my one day future farm, but definitely do know I want to have two flocks of sheep - one hair and one wool, so that I can have some different sheep to work. 

Gripping!

Gripping can be a pretty important tool in your toolbox on the farm and even in a trial.  Gripping is often used to turn livestock, to spur them forward, and to answer a challenge from the livestock.  Grips mostly occur to the nose or to the heel of livestock - noses typically during a challenge or to turn them and heels to move them forward.

Now, in these photos, we have Beck moving to grip a cow's nose and Quelle air snapping at turkeys.  I was not there for the photo of Beck (this was from before I purchased him), but I imagine this was Beck trying to turn a single.  I could easily be wrong, but he is moving in for a square nose bite (which is not how he plays dirty), but since he is coming from around the cow, I doubt it was a challenge.  So my guess is this cow wanted to go a different way and was being stubborn about going where Beck was trying to put him.

Well, my fun training and trial weekend was a bomb.  Due to acclimate weather, both the trial and Friday training place were cancelled.  So, I had my lesson on Thursday and then returned to the real world.  The lesson was fabulous as we tried this pretty incredible (and a little scary) exercise.

Basically, a pen (which is a square/rectangle, is pulled so two sides overlap and make a triangle.  You stand inside of the pen and send the dog for the sheep.  After this happens, you keep your mouth shut.  I do recommend duct tape (maybe handcuffs if you are big on hand signals) or just have a really intimidating instructor standing next to you to keep you quiet.  The entire exercise is to see what your dog does from this point.

For those that do not realize, the Border collie was ORIGINALLY bred to be a "hill dog", to gather a large number of sheep at any distance with little input from humans.  Now a days, especially here in the US where we do not have an incredible number of large sheep farms (think about it, most of our sheep comes from New Zealand), the traits we are breeding for may be a bit different depending on the breeder.  Some choose those natural gathering dogs, some lines are being chosen for bite and driving, others for speed, etc.  Your expectations for this exercise is that the dog has been sent to gather, so they should bring the sheep to you and try to hold the sheep to you.  Using a flock of about 20 sheep around a small triangle makes this difficult because the sheep don't want to settle next to you so you have some around the pen action.

Beck was first up for me and, hilariously enough, my worst dog at this exercise.  He was sent to gather and the entire time he spent driving sheep around.  He would start to bring them to me, but make it about 6 feet from me before flipping in and driving them away.  I was actually (eventually) told to talk to him somewhat so that we could get sheep to us.  Now - my take on this is pretty simple here.  He is cattle dog blood lines, was a farm dog on an Angus cattle farm, and was a cattle trial dog.  I imagine no one wants cattle literally brought to them and they like more push and driving in cattle.  So, you can see where some breeding and training can alter that natural original purpose.  He and I have done the exercise since and it went about the same way.  So, we will continue to work with the exercise - as in the last practice I was able to get the sheep to me with whistle commands and make him do the exercise with verbal commands to show him what I was expecting.  We will see what he thinks next time we try.

Quelle was beautiful.  That dog is loaded with natural feel for her sheep and is a natural gathering dog.  She brought them and kept them to me, was really good about getting a feel for where to be to hold them to me as a group without them slipping around the corners, and we practiced some corner assist shedding (using a corner of the triangle to separate the sheep to two groups and calling her to that corner).  So since I talked about breeding with Beck, I will talk a little about Quelle.  She is out of a UK import stud to a female that goes back to imported hill dogs.  Quelle is very much bred to gather and  has a natural outrun - she knows to go out and look for sheep and bring them back to her handler naturally.  Which means the training to drive has been a bit shakier even though she is enthusiastic to drive as well.

Crystal is not a natural dog - although she is definitely more likely to gather than to drive.  She did so, brought them up, but had a very difficult time finding where she needed to be (not too far away, not too close, etc.) to hold the sheep to me without loosing them around the corners.  She has no problem coming through the group to me, but almost no feel for her livestock.  The lesson actually turned into a grip lesson.  Crystal has NEVER shown a propensity to grip.  Zero bite.  So we had her backing sheep around and chasing singles around the pen, trying to encourage her to do so.  Our lesson turned into a confidence boosting lesson because, even if she never bites, she needs to approach her livestock (especially those facing her and thinking of charging) as though she will bite.  

And for whatever CRAZY reason, we did this exercise with Eve.  Eve is now 10 months old - keen as can be on livestock, but has NO recall and I was told not to put a long line on her.  Again, NO RECALL and in a large field where cattle are at the other end, there is a giant lake, and and open gate to the road much further away.  Yeah, laugh, ask questions, wonder why she has no recall, but I am pretty sure I was thinking this was crazy when I got her from the car.

Does anyone even realize how nervous I was - I was expected to send my 10 month old puppy who has been on short trips to livestock maybe 5 or 6 times, out to pick up a large group of sheep and I was expected to stand in a pen and NOT HELP HER.  

That puppy...  wow.  She has an outrun, she went out and got behind them.... then proceeded to circle them.  No desire to bring them, but she definitely had them.  Combination work of adult dogs to help push the sheep and me calling her to tell her where I was, eventually got me my sheep.  From there, she knew exactly where to be to hold them to me.  She held them so well to me that it was hard to push a sheep or two around a corner so she would have to cover.  Every time I bent over to push, she would flank over and keep it in.  Crazy little girl.  And when she wanted them to move, she came in with a hard heel bite.  

There was certainly more excitement to this, including an adult dog coming in to help with biting, separating a single sheep that another adult dog wanted to help Eve catch and bring back leading to a lovely chase.  It was so hard to stand in that pen and do nothing.  I am used to going out and helping her, but I wasn't allowed to as the exercise is about seeing what is natural behavior and instinct to the dog.  

It was pretty incredible to watch that puppy and she is going be a wonderful stock dog when she is trained.  She is going to make me work for that training though and I will be looking forward to it.

The exercise in general was a lot of fun and different from what we normally do.  It is certainly something to come back to and hopefully will free the dogs up when it comes to the Outrun Lift and Fetch.  Beck will definitely need a lot of this.  

Unfortunately, my instructor is headed overseas and so the next lesson will not be until mid/end March.  Which means I will be back to training on my own.  Hopefully, I have enough exercises and things to work on to fill the time.  I have a fun set of trials coming up and a trip to Florida for two trials, so that should certainly eat up some time.