Matthew Heineman interview
So this interview was supposed to run the day we shut down The Dissolve. I thought it turned out pretty wellâand I love the movieâso Iâm posting it here. Enjoy!Â
Matthew Heineman interview
By Scott Tobias
The thrill of vĂŠritĂŠ-style documentary filmmaking is the possibility that events will unfold in unexpected and startling ways before the camera, but surely Matthew Heineman got more than he bargained for in the making of Cartel Land. From witnessing masked men pouring chemicals in an open-air meth lab to dodging bullets in a shootout, Heineman repeatedly courted danger in following the activities of vigilantes in Mexico and the U.S., and the result is a documentary that combines the visceral charge of a thriller with the high stakes of real, unstable situations. Heineman invites the audience to compare and contrast two outlaws who believe the government has failed to protect ordinary citizens from the cartel violence: On the Mexico side, thereâs Dr. JosĂŠ Mireles, leader of the Autodefensas, a militia group seeking to force the notoriously vicious Knights Templar cartel out of the MichoacĂŠn region; on the U.S. side, thereâs Tim âNailerâ Foley, whose Arizona Border Recon patrols the hills for scouts and drug runners. Heineman talked to The Dissolve about comparing and contrasting the two men, the blurry line between good and evil, and how focusing on filmmaking helped him get through some dangerous spots.
The Dissolve: Dr. Mireles and Tim âNailerâ have in common the belief that the government is not doing enough to stop cartel activity, but their temperaments are very different. How would you describe them, and what did it take to gain their trust?
Matthew Heineman: I really wanted to make a character-driven vĂŠritĂŠ film, and I was riding on the subway in New York, and read this Rolling Stone article called âBorder Madness,â featuring this vigilante who was operating on the Arizona side of the Mexican border. The minute I read it, I was fascinated by this world. I knew nothing about the border. I knew nothing about the drug wars. I knew nothing about vigilantism, and I wanted to learn more. So I set about gaining access to Tim âNailerâ Foley, who leads this vigilante movement, and spent several months filming with him. I then actually got an article sent to me by my father about the Autodefensas. The Autodefensas were a citizen uprising that was fighting back against the Knights Templar cartel. And right when I read that, I knew I wanted to create this parallel story of vigilantism on both sides of the border. In many ways, Cartel Land is a character portrait of these two men, both who are 55 years old, both who believe that the government has failed them, and both who have taken the law into their own hands to âfight against evil,â to fight against the cartels. But the circumstances are obviously quite different. In Mexico, the violence is real. The violence is visceralâ80,000-plus people killed since 2007, 20,000-plus people disappeared. In Arizona, the violence is not happening. Itâs much more of a fear that this violence will seep its way across our borders. In many ways, these characters are similar. And in many ways, theyâre quite, quite different. That fascinated me. In some ways, the film is almost a meditation on what drives men and women to fight violence with violence, and the conflict between idealism and violence. I often found myself wondering, âWhat would I do if violence came knocking at my front door? What would I do if my sister was raped, and my brother was hanging from a bridge? Would I take up violence? Would I become a vigilante? Is that just, is that right? Is vigilantism sustainable?â These were the sort of questions that drove me to make this film.
The Dissolve: How tangible is the threat on the Arizona side? When you were with Tim Nailer, did you sense they were chasing ghosts in a way or are their concerns reasonable?
Heineman: I think itâs really easy to cast simplistic narratives over whatâs happening or who these people are. Until youâre on the ground, and youâre there witnessing it, itâs really hard to truly understand. I will say that when youâre in Arizona, you do feel like the government abandoned this part of the country. And you do feel that this area is controlled by the cartels. You drive through the valley, and you can hear the cartel talking about you on the radio. You can hear them organizing drug shipments moving northward. You really do feel like youâre in this area that's controlled by the cartels.
The Dissolve: Do you get a sense with both of these men about what their relationship is with the people in their charge? How much control they really have over them? Is that another point of similarity between these guys?
Heineman: Sure, definitely. In some ways, this film is sort of timeless in that throughout history, weâve seen armed groups rise up to fight against evil. We see that all across the world today, and we will continue to see that going forward. In many ways, itâs a story about what happens when citizens or people or groups rise up to fight against what they consider to be evil. And oftentimes, even if the intentions are noble, or the intentions of the leaders are noble, within their ranks, there are people with ulterior motives. I think we see that definitely on both sides of the border. Both of these leaders need men to fulfill their goal. The inability to control the people within their ranks ultimately lead to problems.
The Dissolve: How did the finished film differ from how you conceptualized it? Youâre still following real life as itâs unfolding, so where did this take you that maybe you didnât expect?
Heineman: I originally thought I was telling this very simple story of guys in white shirts fighting guys in black hats in the sort of Western motif. Especially in Mexico, I very quickly realized that the story is much more complex, much blurrier. And this complexity fascinated me and drove me. I wanted to try to understand what was really happening, and who these guys were. I ended up with a story that I never could have imagined. I found myself in places I could never have imagined. Iâve never been a war reporter. Iâve never been in situations like that, but I found myself in shoot-outs with the cartel and the vigilantes. I found myself in meth labs in the dark, desert night. Ultimately, the film ended in a place that the story comes full circle. Iâve tried to describe it without giving away the movie. The short answer is that the movie ended up in a place that I never could have imagined. In the editing process and in post-production, there were three really talented editors as well as myself, who were cutting. I think the guiding principle that I imparted on everybody was, âLetâs have the audience go on this journey in the same way that I did. Let's have the moments where I thought I understood the story, but it changed dramatically before me. Let's have the audience feel those moments in the same way that I felt those moments.â
The Dissolve: When you were in Mexico and started to discover that these lines between black hats and white hats were a little bit blurrier than you might have anticipated, did that place you in sticky situations in terms of where your perspective was at, and who you were identifying with?
Heineman: That was the scariest part about making the film. Iâd be on an operativo, on a mission with the Autodefensas, and sometimes I wouldnât know if I was with the good guys or the bad guys. Thatâs what was so scary about making this film. By far, this was the hardest film Iâve ever made and probably the hardest film I will ever make because youâre constantly on shifting sand. You think youâd be doing one thing one day, and then that thing that you thought were doing did a complete 180. You thought you knew who this one person was, and then you found out who that person really was. It was an exhilarating sort of journey, but a threatening journey. And a very morally complex journey. Every single day, every single week, every single shoot, I'm constantly trying to reevaluate what the story is that weâre telling. Who are these guys? I became obsessed by it. I was down there one to two weeks every month for almost a year until I stopped, and then I stopped when the story did come full circle. I had an ending in which I felt like I understood what was really happening.
The Dissolve: I saw this film at True/False, and there were several other filmsâone called (T)error and another one called Meruâthat suggested how much of a role technology has played in getting [non-fiction] films made that may not have been able to be made, even as far as 10 years ago.
Heineman: Technology played a huge role in this film, and in filming in general. The ability to tell stories, and the ability to make documentaries has been democratized. Cameras are cheap, digital media is cheap, and there are people telling stories that couldnât tell stories before. As far as Cartel Land goes, I was very fortunate. I do believe we had a camera that was small, compact, and was also quite cinematic. That was my goal. I wanted to tell a digitally compelling story as well as an intellectually compelling story, and the look and the feel of the film was very important to me. The camera that I used really allowed me to achieve that goal, and to tell hopefully what is viewed as a visually rich story as well.
The Dissolve: The film won cinematography at Sundance, but you donât necessarily associate films that are so on-the-fly as being visually striking. What was going through your head when you were behind the camera? Given all the action that played out in front of you, were you also thinking about how it was going to play and what it was going to look like? Was all that going through your head at once?
Heineman: Yeah. Letâs take the shootout, for example. Again, Iâd never been in a situation like that before. I had a thousand things going through my head. âIs this worth it? Where the hell am I? Where are the bullets flying? Whatâs the exit strategy?â There were many, many different things. But I think that one of the things that kept me sane during those moments was actually the craft of filmmaking. Focusing on exposing, framing, and then by doing that, I was able to be relatively calm despite the chaos that was ensuing around me. Thereâs thousands of journalists out there that are telling complex stories in very dangerous places, so thereâs nothing inherently that different that I did here.
The Dissolve: What was your takeaway about the drug war, and how it might be more effectively waged on either side of the border? Was it something that you thought about while putting the film together, and came to any conclusions about?
Heineman: This is not a policy film. There have been many great documentaries about the drug war with really smart people talking about it, and how it came about, and what we can do to fix it. That was not the point of Cartel Land. The point of Cartel Land was to get a visceral, first-hand experience on people on the ground. I wanted to get the experience of everyday citizens who were rising up to fight back against the cartel. Through that journey that I went on and through the experiences that I saw, I found a couple of things. One is that this world is quite murky. The lines between good and evil are quite blurry. Itâs a very cyclical problem. At the end of the day, itâs very simple economics. As long as thereâs a demand for drugs in the United States, there will be a supplier for drugs in Mexico. Unless that demand stops, the supply will not stop. We as Americans donât really think about this war thatâs happening in a country that we share a border with, a country that we share a rich history with. We are responsible for that war to a large degree. We are feeding that war. We are funding that war. I really hope that this film can instigate a really important conversation, and show people a world that they havenât necessarily seen before.