capitalism_is_cringe

"But if any of you cannot afford to marry a free believing woman, then ˹let him marry˺ a believing bondwoman possessed by one of you. Allah knows best ˹the state of˺ your faith ˹and theirs˺. You are from one another. So marry them with the permission of their owners, giving them their dowry in fairness, if they are chaste, neither promiscuous nor having secret affairs. If they commit indecency after marriage, they receive half the punishment of free women. This is for those of you who fear falling into sin. But if you are patient, it is better for you. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful." Sunah an-nisa 4:26.

(If you can't find a suitable wife, you can take a slave girl. Just make sure to get permission from her owner. And if she's indecent, give her 25 lashes, rather than the regular 50 of a non-slave woman.)

A religion that is explicitly Pedophilic:

Narrated `Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that `Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 67, Hadith 70

A religion that is explicitly homophobic:

The prophet said: "If you find someone doing what the people of Lot did, kill both the doer and the one with whom it is done."

Mishkat al-masabih, book 17, hadith 21.

the "misogyny/slavery" argument

islam inherited a world where slavery was the global economic engine, the quranic strategy was "gradualism", creating so many rules for the humane treatment and mandatory freeing of slaves that the institution would eventually collapse

the verse actually mandates marriage to bondwomen (if they weren't already free) and paying them a dowry, which was a radical step toward giving them legal rights and status that they didn't have in pre-islamic arabia

in the modern era, nearly every muslim country and major scholar has declared slavery forbidden, arguing that the "permission" was specific to a time that no longer exists

The "aisha’s age" argument

in the 7th century, "adulthood" was defined by puberty and social maturity, not a universal number like 18, this was the norm across almost all global cultures (european, asian, and middle eastern) until the late 19th century.. what are you gonna do when you find out your grandad at this time did this too? lol because 100% he did, take a look at the 80s and see how grown teens were back then now imagine hundreds of years back, there was no schools, nothing like that, what do you expect people to do? if you really believe that people are the same as they were 100 years back you need to take a history lesson for sure #gobacktoschool

the "homophobia" argument

islamic law historically had a massive gap between 'moral theory' and 'legal practice.' the requirement of four eyewitnesses made these punishments nearly impossible to execute, protecting people's privacy.. most muslims today focus on the quranic principle that 'there is no compulsion in religion' and that every person's private life is between them and God.. you get punished if you're in an islamic country, they don't even allow heterosexual people to do zina, it all depends on if you cause chaos in public, it's just one of the rules, we don't need people openly engaging in lust, all hell would break loose if it did

tbh you can be gay but not act on it, if you wanna risk the afterlife for some girl on girl action here that's on you, your soul will return to Allah anyway and you will answer him whether you believe in him or not, it's gonna happen, everyone in this life gets a trial given to them, God tests you on your patience, if eternal heaven isn't worth it to you, enjoy your "heaven" here, i'm sure you can when there are people around you who are suffering, i wouldn't call this a life that i would risk my hereafter for.. let's be fr

˹Say, O  Prophet,˺ “Should I seek a judge other than Allah while He is the One Who has revealed for you the Book ˹with the truth˺ perfectly explained?” Those who were given the Scripture know that it has been revealed ˹to you˺ from your Lord in truth. So do not be one of those who doubt.

The Word of your Lord has been perfected in truth and justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All-Hearing, All- Knowing. Al-An'am, 6-114-115

(That the Quran is completely perfect, as it is the word of God, the all knowing.)

We have revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ this Book with the truth, as a confirmation of previous Scriptures and a supreme authority on them. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires over the truth that has come to you. To each of you We have ordained a code of law and a way of life. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one community, but His Will is to test you with what He has given ˹each of˺ you. So compete with one another in doing good. To Allah you will all return, then He will inform you ˹of the truth˺ regarding your differences. Al-Ma'idan 5:48

(that other Scriptures from other prophets are somewhat correct, but that the Quran is the final perfected truth. And that those who follow the previous Scriptures, the Christians and Jews, should not be counted as believers, since they don't follow the "ultimate" truth, the Quran)

O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. Al-Ma'idan 5:51

All that to say, the Quran is supposed to be the direct word of God, the all-knowing, and always correct. There is no "historical context" argument, since the Quran is supposed to be true for all contexts. A sin in the 21st century doesn't become halal just because it's the 7th century. Marrying a "bondwoman", (a human being that is owned, aka a slave) is rape. Someone owning slaves should be haram in all centuries. Because:

It's wrong. I shouldn't have to make an argument for why slavery is wrong or why raping captives is wrong. If you think that it's okay for the Mohammed to rape his captive wives then I don't need to have this argument with you, since we have some fundamental differences in what's right and wrong.

Allah himself (as is quoted in the Quran, the "truthful word of God") says we shouldn't have any other masters, but then disregards that when it comes to slaves, I guess.

Also you say that nearly every Muslim country has declared slavery illegal. Which is funny since you're leaving out the major ones: the gulf countries. Like Saudi Arabia. The holiest country. Where all the pilgrimages happen and where women aren't allowed to go out without abayahs. And also the country with the highest rates of "indentured servitude" (slaves) in the middle east.

Islam has always tolerated slavery, and that makes sense, since the complete and perfect word of God explicity allows it.

Aisha's age

It doesn't matter at what time in history, someone having sex with a 9 year old is utterly disgusting to me. I don't care what the "age of consent was at the time", a 9 year old is clearly still growing, aka a child, is incapable of consent. The fact that you think having sex with a 9 year old is okay is... interesting to say the least.

And I don't know why you think that telling me my ancestors are probably pedophilic is a "gotcha"? In fact yes, my great grandpa did the very Muslim thing of getting engaged to my great grandma when she was 6 (he was in his 40s and already married), getting married to her at 9, and raping her at 14, where they proceeded to have 10 kids before the end of her short life.

This is obviously disgusting to me, and the fact that this is allowed in Islam, and that the Prophet, "the most perfect of men", is the leading example of doing this is exactly what I was talking about when I said Islam is pedophilic.

Homophobia

Its weird to me that in your argument you never once addressed "why would this even be a sin?" That God hating on people that he created is perhaps, strange. That you're fine with Mohammed raping a 9 year old but draw the line on "girl on girl action" (?)

But let's address your argument, the little amount that is there before it derails. As I have been saying repeatedly, the Quran is the direct word of God and is therefore perfect, and everything the prophet says is true. If Mohammed says God wants you to kill gay people, God wants you to kill gay people, whether the way of asserting if they're "guilty" is realistic or not.

I also did not mention anything about doing things in public, and neither did the hadiths, so I'm unsure why you brought that up. Here's a direct quote from the Quran, about the people of Lot and what they were doing:

And ˹remember˺ when Lot scolded ˹the men of˺ his people, ˹saying,˺ “Do you commit a shameful deed that no man has ever done before? You lust after men instead of women! You are certainly transgressors. Al-A'raf 7:80-81

(Note that there is no mention if this is public or not. The sin is that they're going after men instead of going after women. If they were going after women publicly, as you helpfully stated, it would still be a sin. So the reason that they were destroyed was due to liking men instead, and that anyone who is "like Lot" (aka, isn't heterosexual) should be killed according to the hadith I mentioned before)

Also, somewhat of a side tangent, how do you know that there is an afterlife or not? Do you have solid proof? Do you have solid proof that your version of the afterlife is the correct one and that everyone else's is wrong? How do you know that when you die it won't turn out that the norse had it right, and since you didn't die as a warrior in battle, you're going to hell? Or that the hindus had it right, and you reincarnate as a worm?

I'm genuinely asking, I would love some solid proof that proves that the Islamic afterlife is correct and that all other afterlives are incorrect.

Anywhos, onto your final claim. Plenty of people convert to all sorts of religions all the time. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't say that people who convert to cults like scientology or even heaven's gate are wise since they "have found logic, discipline, and a sense of community that works for them". I would say they are people that have been taken advantage of by predatory religions. They found something that agreed with so much that they decided to change their entire lives around it. I'm not saying Islam is a cult, it's not. But I used those examples since I assume that you know that those religions are "bad" and that people can be convinced to join "bad" religions. I honestly think most religions are bad but thats a convo for another day.

To wrap this up, my argument is this:

Islam claims that the Quran is the word of God, the all-knowing, and that it's 100% true.

The Quran has no problem with slavery, misogyny, killing gay people, pedophilia

Converts know this and are cool with it, since they agree with Islam so much that they decided to convert and change the rest of their lives.

I do not respect people who think that slavery, misogyny, killing gay people, and pedophilia are okay

I give people who are born into the religion the benefit of the doubt. Since I don't know if they do agree with all of those values, or if they are brainwashed, and have never deprogrammed themselves.

I have sympathy for those who are brainwashed, since I was one of them.

But plenty of people who were born into the religion, have done extensive studying of the scripture and do agree with everything there, all of the slavery, misogyny, killing gay people, and pedophilia.

For those people, like converts, I hold no respect

there is a small minority movement known as quranism, quranists argue that the quran is complete and fully explained on its own, so they reject the authority of hadiths entirely, they often cite verses like 6:114 ("the book fully detailed") as proof, mainstream scholars generally view this group as being outside the fold of traditional Islam because they reject what is considered the "living application" of the faith, if you tried to live strictly by the quran without any tradition or hadith, your daily religious life would lack the details that define modern Islam

Ignored the arguments I made

Called me the uneducated one even though i went through the trouble of citing my sources, showing that I clearly know what I'm talking about and have read the Quran

Quranists reject the hadith, which goes against where I directly quoted the hadiths

And even if we were to stop looking at the texts, and only acknowledge the living religion, we still find slavery, misogyny, homophobia, and pedophilia.

I wonder what your opinion is on the 2.3B people in the world that are Christian, for example. Do you not see how they're also misled?

It's funny to me that I take time out of my day to have a good faith discussion with you, using the sources from your religion, and you still can't bother to actually acknowledging the points I made in the debate you started.

Flattered that you would call me a lesbian, but I am not. And hilarious that you "have sympathy for me" even though you won't talk to me out of fear of "losing braincells" (realizing that you're wrong)

First, thank you a lot for sharing your thoughts so openly. I respect that youre being honest, and I understand why these issues trouble you deeply, I mean, slavery, the ageof Aisha, treatment of women, and the story of Lut, it may be very barbaric for a person who did not study the religion in the good way. These are heavy topics, and it’s fair to ask questions about any religion that claims to be from an All-Knowing God, that's what I did before becoming muslim :))

I’m a revert to Islam myself. I didn’t grow up in it, so I had to study it seriously, looking at the Quran in Arabic, iits historical context, and like its quite difficult at first because there are A LOT of different interpretations. I don’t claim to have all the answers but let me respond to your main points. I really hope you will read it and answer me, I love to have constructive debates with people.

The Quran is perfect and toimeless

You are right :) the Quran repatedly says it is perfect, detailed and protected by Allah (6:114-115, 16:89). we, muslims, believe it is the final, unaltered word of God, valid for all times *thumb emoji*

However “timeless” doesn’t always mean “every single rule is applied exactly the same in every society forever.” That's the point you don't get. The Quran itself often speaks to specific 7th-century contexts, but it actuallly give universal principles, forexample:

It severely limited slavery (which was universal at the time) and pushed strongly toward freeing slaves as an act of pietey (90:12-13, 2:177, 9:60, and, 58:3).

Many scholars (and me) see this as a gradual abolition, i mean, it actually improved conditions dramatically and encouraged manumission until the institution could fade away. That’s why every Muslim country banned slavery in the 19-20th century. Saudi Arabia officially abolished it in 1962 for example.

It’s not “Islam has no problem with slavery.” The Quran regulated a pre-existing very evil and moved society toward its elimination. The same way it regualated polygamy

Slavery and “raping captives”

The sentence “what your right hands possess” (maa malakat aymanukum) is actually right (4:24, 23:5-6). When i frst rode it, i was like "Wth?!" but you have to look at the arabic and the context. This is one of the hardest parts.

So frst of all, let me precise the Arabic and context:

The Quran forbids forcing slave women into prostitution (24:33).

It commands kind treatment of slaves and equates freeing them with great reward

Many scholars today argue this was a temporary wartime regulation in a world where captive women had no protection otherwise.

You said slavery and rape should be haram in all centuries. I agree that owning and raping women is wrong today, that’s why the vast majority of Muslims (including me) say slavery has no place in the modern world. The Quran’s spirit points toward universal human dignity (17:70, 49:13)

Aisha’s Age

The common narration (from Bukhari/Muslim) says Aisha was 6 at marriage and 9 at consummation. But personally, i don't believe it, I don't trust ALL the hadith i find (only if they are coherent with Quran) and plus there are serious historical and mathematical problems with that narration ;)

Aishas sister Asma was 10 year older and died at 100 in 73AH so this puts Aisha at around 17- 19 at the time of Hijrah and marriage

And she participated in battles, etc.

Plus, our beloved Prophet was known for always being kind toward children

The story of Lut (Lot) and homosexuality

You quoted 7:80-81: “You approach men with desire instead of women.”

The Arabic is super important here. The people of Lut were condamned for a lot of crimes together: robbery, attacking travelers, public indecency, and approaching men lustfully instead of their wives (they were mostly heterosexual men abandoning their women for coercive acts with male guests andangels)

The death penalty for homosexual acts comes from hadiths, not the Quran directly. Since you saidthe Quran as perfect and sufficient, its fair to note that the Quran itself does not adks us to kill people for private consensual acts

I am finally done, it took me a while to put all my argument together *proud emoji*

Muslims are not monolitic. There are traditionalists, moderates, progressives, and Quran focused reformers. Many of us (including reverts) are trying to solve these issues and reject cultural garbage and false hadiths.

I dont expect you to respect every mislim’s views, especially if someone really believes in owning slaves or killing LGBT people today. But painting all of Islam, or everyone who converts, as okay with those things is quite unfair TT i mean, plenty of us condemn slavery, child marriage, and violence against any group in the modern world