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@pavlovsd0g
when i say what if we make dean the token straight no one laughs
like i just think it's so funny if there is no subtext or closeted-ness and Dean is just . . . Like That . constantly getting into situations and he's absolutely bewildered over them .
meanwhile sam is super queer and he's just like , " crappp . . .. dean's gonna blow my cover crappp . . . "
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every time Sam is depicted as an ally , a puppy stops being happy and a butterfly stops drinking delicious nectar .
don't erase Sam's queerness .
like dean's childhood WAS fucked up and interesting and worth talking about!!! but so many people have locked onto their particular desires for dean's character and refuse to engage with what we are actually told and shown by the show so they have to make shit up instead. it IS interesting that dean took to hunting so well, that john trusted him to be brought along on hunts as a child, that he viewed himself as a parentified figure for sam who was responsible for his well-being, that often his decisions or actions while acting under those roles in his own mind were harmful or wrong or made sam upset. that is interesting! it is interesting and often used in early seasons as a plot point ON THE SHOW!!! that sam and dean have very different understandings of their childhood! why would you make it LESS interesting by deciding "dean's view was 100% right and sam is either stupid or lying" rather than accepting that when sam counters dean's beliefs about their childhood it isn't to make a he-said-he-said argument for no reason it's PLOT, on a TV SHOW, that shows that dean's GOOD INTENTIONS often FAILED, just like john's!!! because dean was a child and trusted his dad! and sam was a child and trusted his brother!
imagine seeing "i was kind of a lonely kid, dean" / "no you weren't, you had me" and thinking "ha! take THAT, sam! your lies will NOT be accepted here!" rather than "the differing views the brothers had about what sam was experiencing (by which sam's view is de facto the 'more' correct one, both because it is about HIS experiences and also because of what we are shown and told in this episode and others) is a central theme of what makes this tv show interesting"
imagine seeing the difference in sam & dean's heaven memories and assuming sam is somehow MANIPULATING HEAVEN and/or heaven is twisting the world to suit sam's INCORRECT understanding of their childhood just to MAKE DEAN FEEL BAD and thinking that that reading of this television show is, like, better and also canonically true. why do you want to make the conflict "dean is right and the world is actively conspiring against him to gaslight him" rather than "wow, ten-year-old dean was put in a horrible situation and wasn't equipped as a ten-year-old to fix the horrible situation his six-year-old brother was also in, and now as an adult dean has to reckon with that, and it's upsetting for him, and he often denies this rather than admit he was incapable of being a parent for his brother because he thinks sam is blaming him and accepting that blame that will ruin or strain their relationship, which ironically strains their relationship because sam isn't trying to blame dean, he's trying to be understood"
ALL OF THIS. Both of them had a horrible childhood and people keep trying to make it seem like nothing happened to sam becuase Dean? Like are we forgetting that sam was left alone by himself for days? Weeks? At a time when dean and john went on hunts. Both dean and sam were forced to grow up fast. I feel like people have such a high standard on Dean and his parentification when in reality, he was a child. And no matter how hard you try, you can only do so much. He tried his best. But i don't understand when people act like sam should be grateful for his childhood when it was horrible as hell. They were poor as fuck and probably starved sometimes. When they both fight about their childhood it seems to me that sam is saying "my childhood was messed up so i wanted to leave" while dean is saying "i was there. I was always there. Wasn't that enough?". It always seemed to me that dean was the one who saw himself as Sam's parent and carried that parental responsibility into his adult life when all sam was asking dean was to realise that sam could take responsibility on his own.
Or sometimes i see pple saying that it was a privilege for sam to go to college when in reality sam actually fought to go to college like cmon people
Fully agree with @pretty-boy-sammy post and majority of Sambrosia’s point too.
Just want to add perspective as Sam girl who does think angels manipulated both Sam and Dean’s heaven to show memories that were more opposite and to draw a wedge between them because there’s no way Sam’s perfect Heaven wouldn’t include Jess over his first Thanksgiving.
But that doesn’t mean I see Sam having happy childhood memories without Dean as bad or unjustifiable. I 100% understand why Flagstaff was a happy memory for Sam. Escaping to Stanford will also have been a happy/sad memory. Happy in he was getting his freedom at last but sad because it came at the cost of being disowned. Which, no matter how problematic your family are, being disowned by them does hurt.
The angels knew which ones to pick to make Dean mad at Sam and it worked because Dean does have this tunnel vision that Sam’s childhood was perfect - like so many Sam antis. But for me that was heaven conspiring against Sam, not Dean. And Dean was bullheaded enough to fall for it.
It’s obvious Sam had a miserable childhood, we saw plenty of proof from the Pilot onwards. But I will add for context that for some of us that proof grew weekly and yearly, we didn’t get it all in one binge watch. For example we had to wait about 6 years after Dark Side of the Moon to see that Sam was so lonely he had an imaginary friend.
Anyway, main point is, you can see DSOTM as the angels manipulating the boys Heaven without dismissing Sam’s experience of his own childhood as different to Dean’s view of their childhood. And the only brother I’m mad at in that episode is Dean for making sure Sam saw him throw the Samulet (& essentially their brotherly bond) away.
Not saying anyone has to agree with me, just that it’s my perspective.
When I first saw it, I also found it strange that they excluded not only Jessica but also Dean from Sam`s favorite paradise memories, because judging by Dean’s memories - they had happy mutual memories together even despite of their shitty childhood, and recent rewatch made me 100% sure, that it was a high-class manipulation for Dean to say "yes" to Michael, and you know what? It worked like a clock. Dean practically did it and lost his faith in their bond as brothers.
like dean's childhood WAS fucked up and interesting and worth talking about!!! but so many people have locked onto their particular desires for dean's character and refuse to engage with what we are actually told and shown by the show so they have to make shit up instead. it IS interesting that dean took to hunting so well, that john trusted him to be brought along on hunts as a child, that he viewed himself as a parentified figure for sam who was responsible for his well-being, that often his decisions or actions while acting under those roles in his own mind were harmful or wrong or made sam upset. that is interesting! it is interesting and often used in early seasons as a plot point ON THE SHOW!!! that sam and dean have very different understandings of their childhood! why would you make it LESS interesting by deciding "dean's view was 100% right and sam is either stupid or lying" rather than accepting that when sam counters dean's beliefs about their childhood it isn't to make a he-said-he-said argument for no reason it's PLOT, on a TV SHOW, that shows that dean's GOOD INTENTIONS often FAILED, just like john's!!! because dean was a child and trusted his dad! and sam was a child and trusted his brother!
imagine seeing "i was kind of a lonely kid, dean" / "no you weren't, you had me" and thinking "ha! take THAT, sam! your lies will NOT be accepted here!" rather than "the differing views the brothers had about what sam was experiencing (by which sam's view is de facto the 'more' correct one, both because it is about HIS experiences and also because of what we are shown and told in this episode and others) is a central theme of what makes this tv show interesting"
imagine seeing the difference in sam & dean's heaven memories and assuming sam is somehow MANIPULATING HEAVEN and/or heaven is twisting the world to suit sam's INCORRECT understanding of their childhood just to MAKE DEAN FEEL BAD and thinking that that reading of this television show is, like, better and also canonically true. why do you want to make the conflict "dean is right and the world is actively conspiring against him to gaslight him" rather than "wow, ten-year-old dean was put in a horrible situation and wasn't equipped as a ten-year-old to fix the horrible situation his six-year-old brother was also in, and now as an adult dean has to reckon with that, and it's upsetting for him, and he often denies this rather than admit he was incapable of being a parent for his brother because he thinks sam is blaming him and accepting that blame that will ruin or strain their relationship, which ironically strains their relationship because sam isn't trying to blame dean, he's trying to be understood"
ALL OF THIS. Both of them had a horrible childhood and people keep trying to make it seem like nothing happened to sam becuase Dean? Like are we forgetting that sam was left alone by himself for days? Weeks? At a time when dean and john went on hunts. Both dean and sam were forced to grow up fast. I feel like people have such a high standard on Dean and his parentification when in reality, he was a child. And no matter how hard you try, you can only do so much. He tried his best. But i don't understand when people act like sam should be grateful for his childhood when it was horrible as hell. They were poor as fuck and probably starved sometimes. When they both fight about their childhood it seems to me that sam is saying "my childhood was messed up so i wanted to leave" while dean is saying "i was there. I was always there. Wasn't that enough?". It always seemed to me that dean was the one who saw himself as Sam's parent and carried that parental responsibility into his adult life when all sam was asking dean was to realise that sam could take responsibility on his own.
Or sometimes i see pple saying that it was a privilege for sam to go to college when in reality sam actually fought to go to college like cmon people
Fully agree with @pretty-boy-sammy post and majority of Sambrosia’s point too.
Just want to add perspective as Sam girl who does think angels manipulated both Sam and Dean’s heaven to show memories that were more opposite and to draw a wedge between them because there’s no way Sam’s perfect Heaven wouldn’t include Jess over his first Thanksgiving.
But that doesn’t mean I see Sam having happy childhood memories without Dean as bad or unjustifiable. I 100% understand why Flagstaff was a happy memory for Sam. Escaping to Stanford will also have been a happy/sad memory. Happy in he was getting his freedom at last but sad because it came at the cost of being disowned. Which, no matter how problematic your family are, being disowned by them does hurt.
The angels knew which ones to pick to make Dean mad at Sam and it worked because Dean does have this tunnel vision that Sam’s childhood was perfect - like so many Sam antis. But for me that was heaven conspiring against Sam, not Dean. And Dean was bullheaded enough to fall for it.
It’s obvious Sam had a miserable childhood, we saw plenty of proof from the Pilot onwards. But I will add for context that for some of us that proof grew weekly and yearly, we didn’t get it all in one binge watch. For example we had to wait about 6 years after Dark Side of the Moon to see that Sam was so lonely he had an imaginary friend.
Anyway, main point is, you can see DSOTM as the angels manipulating the boys Heaven without dismissing Sam’s experience of his own childhood as different to Dean’s view of their childhood. And the only brother I’m mad at in that episode is Dean for making sure Sam saw him throw the Samulet (& essentially their brotherly bond) away.
Not saying anyone has to agree with me, just that it’s my perspective.
When I first saw it, I also found it strange that they excluded not only Jessica but also Dean from Sam`s favorite paradise memories, because judging by Dean’s memories - they had happy mutual memories together even despite of their shitty childhood, and recent rewatch made me 100% sure, that it was a high-class manipulation for Dean to say "yes" to Michael, and you know what? It worked like a clock. Dean practically did it and lost his faith in their bond as brothers.
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I think what a lot of people don’t get is that Sam is constantly, constantly operating from a place of trauma. He probably spends a good chunk of every day thinking about Lucifer. He probably dreams about the cage almost every night. 180 years is a lot of fucking time. And it’s entirely possible it was thousands. I vacillate on how much time I think he spent in the cage, but it was minimum 180. I’d say maximum probably 1800. Anything more than that and I don’t think he would be functioning. But honestly time in the cage probably didn’t really abide by normal rules.
But Sam is constantly on edge for a reason. There is a reason Jared padalecki’s portrayal of his character went through such a drastic change season 7 onward. How could he not be a completely different character? He has led over double his lifetime in a completely different place, being constantly tortured in ways the human mind literally could not comprehend. Of course he’s going to be jumpy. Of course he’s going to stutter. Of course he’s going to flinch at everything. Of course he’s going to be quieter. We have a character who spent 180+ years in a constant state of trauma and pain and complicated feelings toward an abuser. Jared didn’t suddenly stop being able to act post season 6. We saw what he did with gadreel. You just didn’t pay attention or even consider the implications of everything Sam was going through.
It really is such a fascinating case of genre vs acting study though, because absolutely no one else on this show, save maybe Ruth Connell later on, treats trauma in the same way. It’s not congruous with the genre. There isn’t very much variation with how jensen ackles plays dean post-hell. And to be fair, 30 years of torture is a lot less than 180. And the narrative sure as hell preferred to move on and never linger on what Sam is constantly going through. There’s plot to get through and more implications to ignore. This show stopped attempting to be a horror long ago.
For everyone except sam, at least.
Exactly this! Sam was a fundamentally different person once he returned to the world. And he had one person that he built his new reality on - Dean. Let this be stone number one...
Sam catches a lot of shit for not trying to save Dean at the end of season seven. Sam, who was having a hard enough time distinguishing between his warped memories and actual reality, watched as everyone simply vanished. From one moment to the next. Everyone that had ever meant anything to him was gone...
And those that he might have gone to for help in the wake of such catastrophic events? Bobby and Rufus were dead. Castiel had disappeared in the same moment as Dean. And Crowley? The bastard who at that point had only helped Sam when it served his greater good - he snatched up Kevin and departed.
The look on Sam's face as he realized that he was alone. Totally. Utterly and completely. Alone.
Season three Sam would have taken apart the entire world. Searched every single corner for some way to bring Dean back. Not stopping until the entire earth was a cratered out and burnt shell and he was the lone remaining inhabitant.
Season seven Sam? He was a PTSD stricken shell. He had nothing and no one. Until he hit a damn dog with the Impala. He poured every ounce of drive and determination he had into saving that animal. He couldn't fix anything else, but he could fix this.
Sam took on the trials as a form of penance, an apology for what he hadn't done. But even in that, he felt he failed.
Do you want to know what I confessed in there? What my greatest sin was? It was how many times I'd let you down. I can't do that again.
And Dean? His response to Sam in that church in the middle of the wreckage of their lives...
Don't you dare... think that there is anything, past or present, that I would put in front of you.
Which led to yet another traumatic experience for Sam. And yet another betrayal of his autonomy. Being tricked into accepting Gadreel, to be used by an angel to commit heinous acts. Sam is the one with the memories of killing Kevin. Long after Gadreel is dead, Sam is the one waking up in a cold sweat. Seeing his hand snuff out that innocent kid.
Sam was wounded and broken and on the cusp of possibly beginning to heal post-Chuck, and then as he held Dean in that godforsaken barn his own soul finally died. Hundreds, possibly thousands of years of torture had been unable to do what that act of losing Dean did to him.
His walking corpse roamed the earth for another thirty years, and he raised his child because Dean had asked him to, but he was dead inside. Just biding his time until he could be reunited with the only person who had ever completed him. Blurry wife? There was a reason his wedding ring vanished as soon as he got to heaven. As soon as he was reunited with his... everything.
Sam suffered countless traumas and violations. He grew and evolved as each new torment was piled on. Becoming quieter, making himself smaller, and just trying to fade from view. All the while, feeling as though he was failing everyone.
I think what a lot of people don’t get is that Sam is constantly, constantly operating from a place of trauma. He probably spends a good chunk of every day thinking about Lucifer. He probably dreams about the cage almost every night. 180 years is a lot of fucking time. And it’s entirely possible it was thousands. I vacillate on how much time I think he spent in the cage, but it was minimum 180. I’d say maximum probably 1800. Anything more than that and I don’t think he would be functioning. But honestly time in the cage probably didn’t really abide by normal rules.
But Sam is constantly on edge for a reason. There is a reason Jared padalecki’s portrayal of his character went through such a drastic change season 7 onward. How could he not be a completely different character? He has led over double his lifetime in a completely different place, being constantly tortured in ways the human mind literally could not comprehend. Of course he’s going to be jumpy. Of course he’s going to stutter. Of course he’s going to flinch at everything. Of course he’s going to be quieter. We have a character who spent 180+ years in a constant state of trauma and pain and complicated feelings toward an abuser. Jared didn’t suddenly stop being able to act post season 6. We saw what he did with gadreel. You just didn’t pay attention or even consider the implications of everything Sam was going through.
It really is such a fascinating case of genre vs acting study though, because absolutely no one else on this show, save maybe Ruth Connell later on, treats trauma in the same way. It’s not congruous with the genre. There isn’t very much variation with how jensen ackles plays dean post-hell. And to be fair, 30 years of torture is a lot less than 180. And the narrative sure as hell preferred to move on and never linger on what Sam is constantly going through. There’s plot to get through and more implications to ignore. This show stopped attempting to be a horror long ago.
For everyone except sam, at least.
They don’t take into account at all that Sam should have remained a vegetable or in a coma forever. It's a miracle that he speak and adequately thinking. He was literally a patient in a psychiatric hospital, previously suffering from schizophrenia due to the cage and insomnia, which was further aggravated by taking cocaine or other banned substances + prescribed drugs by doctor. I don’t have a problem with Jared’s acting at all. Where it is needed, he pushes as much as possible.
" After we exorcise Lucifer out of Cas and put him into a new vessel." ↳ 11.18 - HELL’S ANGEL
" After we exorcise Lucifer out of Cas and put him into a new vessel." ↳ 11.18 - HELL’S ANGEL
I love how hellers crucify Sam for pointing on Castiel's stolen body as " it ". 🤣This creature stole Jimmy’s body, ruined his life, and after death continues to use the image of a dead man without shame or conscience. And yes, it’s " It " - because this body simply doesn’t even belong to Castiel, but just an empty shell of bones and skin that he stole, so before you call Sam a cold-blooded bastard, start thinking with your head, Not an ass, and you’ll understand that Sam’s words are very accurate about this case.
- life
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This blink and you’ll miss it shot kills me.
Sam, who has just been held down by these guys and force fed demon blood against his will proceeds to beat them up and makes them leave the bar. Sam, who has a history throughout the show of being forced into doing shit he doesn’t want to do, and having his choices taken away from him, is rightfully furious about what has happened. We see this anger in the first GIF. But then, that anger slowly trickles away and he turns back to meet the gaze of the girl he met, and what is that anger replaced with? SHAME. Sam Winchester, the boy who doesn’t have a bad bone in his body, feels shame for an act that another group of humans forced him into. They antagonised him. They attacked him. They held him down. They fed him that blood. But Sam is the one who can’t look her in the eye. Sam is the one who probably has unimaginably negative thoughts of himself going through his head, because we all know how little self-worth he has, coupled with an equally low opinion of himself to match. He thinks that all of this was his fault, and that hurts. It’s all there in his expression, so kudos to Jared for this scene, it’s beautiful.
No shit. Thank you for reminding me of how you used my hands to kill people, making me think I’ve turned into an evil person, almost raped Jo in my body and nearly killed my brother. Thank you for another reminder of how you and your beloved master absolutely ignored me as human being and person and treated only as meat and bones.
I just had the thought that if Sam had the Mark of Cain, Dean would treat him like shit and act as if he was a monster like how he treated Sam during his demon blood days
Sam was with Dean when he was treating him, watching him to be all right and very worried when Dean passed out, and Sam was just left to rot and they came rescue him only when the fatigues started and he literally began to push himself against the wall.
Ok but. Looking back at the scene where crowley is torturing gadreel in Sam’s body. And dean runs away because he can’t bear to see Sam’s body in agony (all because of a choice dean made). And instead of supervising Crowley torturing Sam’s body castiel goes to check on deans emotional state. That’s it that’s a metaphor for the entire plot of supernatural.
It is rather amusing from Gadriel’s point of view to posess a man who is the true wessel of Lucifer. The Serpent, who set him up and cost him centuries of life.
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hey dean, your jealousy and possessiveness are showing. we get it, you want to be the sole owner and patriarch in your brother-pet's life.
SAM WINCHESTER | SUPERNATURAL 11.10 - THE DEVIL IN THE DETAILS
And this shit has been going on for 180 years. And it’s just a tiny representation of the horror he experienced during that time.
