Untitled

Jon Snow and Catelyn Stark: Psychological Abuse? ( + (English and German subtitles are available.)

It's a topic that's been debated for years. Jon and Cat's relationship is, at best, coldness, and at worst, psychologically abusive. I don't know which claim you think is justified, but from a psychologist's perspective, there's a level of abuse.

One of my friends is a psychologist; a fan of Asoiaf, and she analyzed Jon and Cat's relationship in the first book for me through her own lens and offered her own interpretations. I'm merely a conduit for her thoughts.

Of course, the important part for me about this relationship is that it becomes a Chekhov gun in the later books, but that will be the subject of a separate video.

She paid with her own sons with her own daughters because of the way she behaved with Jon.

That he waged war for Arya.

That he died for Arya.

It wasn't for the freefolk, and it wasn't for the Northern Houses.

It was for Arya and Arya alone.

Every time I come across edits be it on TikTok, or discussions on Quora or reddit and even on Tumblr they specifically cut every quote of him that mentions her name. And when it's citated, more often than not, is out of context.

EH_Dave Do you empathize with them all equally during writing them?

George_RR_Martin While writing them? Sure. Then I switch POVs and switch sides. I do have my favorite characters, of course. Tyrion, Arya, Jon . . . but I love them all. Even the ones I kill.

Granny Are you trying to say something to the reader by drilling into us how much Arya and Jon love each other?

George_RR_Martin "Say something to the reader?" No, I'm just reporting how the characters feel. <g> Of course, everything in the book says something to the reader.

He was feeling better now. He was not going to let himself be sad. "I better go. I'll spend my first year on the Wall emptying chamber pots if I keep Uncle Ben waiting any longer." Arya ran to him for a last hug. "Put down the sword first," Jon warned her, laughing. She set it aside almost shyly and showered him with kisses.

“The dragon gave one last hiss and stretched out flat upon his belly. Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I.” (ADWD, Daenerys IX)

The first 13 chapters of AGOT were sent with the 1993 outline. Fans who have looked through the manuscripts have noticed few differences compared to the published version. All these iconic quotes and the relationship between Jon and Arya settling in between major narrative plots have always been here.

Girls get the arms, but not the swords. Bastards get the swords, but not the arms. Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. The memory of her laughter warmed him on the long ride north. Stick them with the pointy end. These passages were thought with them in a romantic relationship in mind :) Got a problem with that? Go take it up with George.

Plus, “You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.” > Arya kissing the cat in the brow, who is the real king of the castle and the black bastard > Jon being called the black bastard in the wall in ADWD. Grrm subtly returning to old foreshadowing? Oh interesting I guess!

Textually, Jon and Arya are platonic soulmates. They are each other's heart, home and priority. Their bond defies death, is unique within asoiaf and is magnificently written as something no one else has. Trying to level down their relationship only reveals an inability to read the text and the narrative arc of these characters, who have been deeply connected since book 1. They yearn so much to be reunited, regardless of any factors, that it is painful. These are feral loves that simply shake the readers and imply visceral emotions and actions. Like Jon breaking his vows to rescue "Arya" and suffering the consequences for it. It is insane, but this is the true representation of love. An unstoppable force that can drag anyone down. The things we love destroy us every time. He, along with Nymeria, are the reasons that allow Arya's identity to be preserved and that's why she never loses herself. Her desire to reunite with him, even before all the tragedy, is the factor that motivates her to continue living. And she has such overwhelming faith in him (Jon will want me, even if no one else will.) that she knows she will be safe in his arms. Arya's physical home as it was... simply doesn't exist anymore, but JON is her home. And most of all, her pack. In Braaavos she never thinks of any other alternatives besides him. And she would never abandon him.

The abundance of love between them not only brings significant transformations to their internal and external worlds, but also resonates in the narrative. The forbidden love between them would defy logic, social and moral conventions. This is the kind of conflict that George loves to explore and enhance. George is not a conventional writer. His more vanilla romances are not overly explored by the text. He likes drama, complex and contradictory feelings, relationships that involve some degree of moral complexity and that torment his characters. That's why it's so funny to see fans so shocked by his initial ideas because his text itself reveals where he takes things, to the utmost of the heart in conflict with itself. He seeks to address these issues because he likes it. Asoiaf would be much less fun if he only cared about the readers' feelings.

In a scenario where the zombie apocalypse has wiped out everything and everyone, why wouldn't they be together? If, even when they're apart, they still yearn for each other? Why wouldn't they choose to live their lives together, if that's already a desire expressed by both of them? And share their pains and joys with each other. And grow old together? I'm not even talking in a ship sense. It's just that these two characters explicitly inform readers that they love each other above all else and unconditionally. If they have no hope because they've changed so much and nothing will ever be the same, what relationship does asoiaf have a chance of thriving? No one else? If 90% of the relationships established in the books don't have even half of this devotion, loyalty, and affection. How would they be in a better position to thrive?

I'm not saying it will happen exactly as he initially planned. There are obstacles, of course. However, I think those obstacles are magnified to the extreme even in hypothetical scenarios. If the lack of time skip is a hindrance (in a saga that is still ongoing and can last for years), then it is a problem for other relationships as well, in Arya's case perhaps except with Ned Dayne. "But, he can write off-page around the end or in an epilogue". In other words, this narrative device can also be used for Jonrya? Right? "Oh, it's so controversial". Since when did this stop George from writing anything? I find it funny when people say they can't see her reciprocating the feelings. When GRRM totally can and wrote it that way initially 😁 He is a writer fully aware of the universe he created, you don't need to tell him. Platonic soulmates falling in love after a reunion and being horrified by it is exactly the kind of emotional mess that GRRM likes to explore. Regardless of whether they end up together or not.

I am of the radical opinion that, if George wants to write something, he will simply find a way and do it. If Jon and Arya somehow end up together in the end, it's part of the endings he's been dreaming up since 1991 and he won't change them, so it's going to happen. We can only wait for the end of the saga to know for sure. I'm not very creative, but maybe Arya looking for Jon north of the wall, spending some time with him, an open ending with the two of them together or maybe implying that the Stark bloodline continued with them and that they had several Stark looking children. Maybe she could be like the Mormont women, claiming that the fathers of her children are bears, in Arya's case, a wolf. Or, for magical reasons, Jon making a pact with The Heart of Winter and being able to meet her only in the spring. If he wants, there are so many narrative paths that can be presented.

It's very obvious to me how much George loves and values ​​their relationship. His favorite quote is something between them. And he constantly elevates and builds on. He revisits old ideas, makes these characters think about each other all the time. He puts extra emphasis on their bond. Like Jon was supposed to die at Hardhome, but he went there and wrote the Pink Letter, just to put more focus on the relationship between him and Arya once again. Idk, but it doesn't seem like he's written off Jon Arya the way ppl think and I think their fates are more intertwined than fans believe. The guy has tripled down on their relationship. So it's going to be very impactful and relevant.

Arya is the most important and beloved person to Jon. While he is the most important and beloved person to her. And that is why it is difficult to visualize them voluntarily separating. Regardless of the direction their relationship takes, they are undeniably made for each other and are the true soulmates of asoiaf.

Granny: Are you trying to say something to the reader by drilling into us how much Arya and Jon love each other?

Arya and Jon are so tragic.

And even when George didn’t go with his original idea of making this series a triology he never said he change his mind about Jon and Arya. He never once had said that, and his canon writing is proof of it. Just how Jon reacted to learning that Arya was in the north and that she was to be made to married Ramsey Bolton, how others could so clearly see the turmoil and the desperation settling in Jon’s heart and mind as days went by and he saw himself tied at hands by his duties. Melisandre and stanis both saw how important Arya was for Jon and how important getting her for Jon was if they wished to have his support.

How Jon distrusted everyone to care or rescue arya. Arya in Jon’s eyes can never be as safe and as home if she isn’t being guarded by Jon.

She is his heart.

He is her home.

Love is the end of duty.

Stood by his duties when Ned died, when rob died, when the Boltons took the north, when Ygritte asked him to stay. He stood by his words.

He will be take no wife, own no land and father no children.

Until she came along. Arya weighted more than his duties, than his position as commander. More than the odds of surviving against Bolton. Of seeing reason of what this would mean for him and what consequences he was going to face.

He chose Arya.

Arya will have the same destiny to face. She was force to step out of her shoes as Arya Stark. She refused to be a bargain chip for the Lannisters or be killed by them. She knew she had to get stronger just like Jon told her, that she had to find someone to train with her and she did.

Unconsciously driving her into an institution much like the brotherhood.

Just like Jon she will have give up being Arya Stark, part ways with whom she is and her place in the game.

She will be no one’s daughter, no one’s wife and no one’s mother

The same vows Jon took.

Arya mention that if her prince was to be killed she will ride and kill those responsible for his death.

Jon said he dislike maidens that sit on a tower brushing their hair awaiting for their knight to come and rescue them.

Arya will learn of Jon’s death by the men Stanis send to bravos with Justin Massey.

Arya will reclaim who she is not because she wishes to inherit Winterfell or to be crown queen. She will do it because GRRM had been written for all the books that Jon is Arya’s happiness, the last person she knows will love her the way she was, and what she had become.

Also because Stannis spoke to Jon about finding Arya for Jon. And Jon distrusting Stanis intentions with Arya once he has her in his power and maybe even sending Arya to bravo to await the storm. Well seem that fate will have Arya find her way back to Jon. M

Not to mention Arya will have to face consequences as dangerous and as decisive as Jon did for her.

Arya leaving the house of black and white will not come with low cost for her. Yet much like Jon.

Both Jon and Arya will come back to remain who they are meant to be in this game.

Take their place in the game.

“Kill the boy let the man be born”

Biggest example was David and Dan that didn’t not know what to do with Sophie turner’s character after she left king’s landing that they gave her someone else’s plot line stolen from Jeyne Poole who is playing as Arya to the northern plot line to keep her in the show.

As George has her yet again as a camera character so the audience can see what little finger is doing what is happening in the vale without giving away LF POV. Working once more against her blood with her family’s enemies. All for what? Once again for a crown but this time the north crown. And how she is expected to win the crown? Just like she thought in KL by making a man so madly in love with her.

Work great the last time?

Ned got killed

Arya became a runaway

Lady was killed

Nymeria had to be separated from Arya

A lowborn boy died

Margaery married Joffrey

She became lady Lannister by being forced to married Tyrion. A men old enough to be her father. That luckily did not force himself on her.

She became joffrey’s punching bag and laughing stock.

Jon messed up her hair. "I will miss you, little sister." Suddenly she looked like she was going to cry. “I wish you were coming with us.” “Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle. Who knows?”