There'll be oats in the water
There'll be birds on the ground
[ID: 1) Sasuke and Naruto laying next to each other, breathing hard, wet from falling into the water, text: there's coke in the Midas touch; 2) Naruto clutching Sasuke by the collar, leaning over him, Sasuke grabbing Naruto's collar back, them arguing (first Valley fight), text: a joke in the way that we rust; 3) Sasuke opening the doors and seeing his dead parents in front of him, text: there'll be things you never asked; 4) a scan of Naruto's back and then close-up of his face as he stands in the snow thinking about Sasuke, text: oh how they tear at you now; 5) close up of Sasuke's feet as he starts to walk away and then his back with tears in the jacket (after the first Valley fight), text: I'll take the long way 'round; 6) Sasuke walking to the door, away from Hokage!Naruto, text: I'll find my own way down //end ID]
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"I have been worried about you since the third date." – Karen to Eva, 5x07
(I was originally going to make a loving video about Karen, and Karen/Hen, but when I sat down to do so I realized just how much of her screen time was spent dealing with the cheating arc. I’m not a fan of cheating storylines, but I do appreciate that it continued to come up and affect their relationship even after Karen forgave Hen. ...but also 9-1-1 you owe me a Karen-centric episode.)
Song: 'No Matter What' by Joy Ike
cw/tw: cheating, implied drug addiction, mention of jail, minor canon-level injury
For: @lrthreads ( I've been wanting to write you something since forever, but that ability apparently went the way of the dodo birds so have a fanvid instead.)
Song: ‘It’s Alright’ by Mother Mother
cw/tw: canon-level violence/injuries, domestic abuse, child abuse/neglect, implied death of a child, canon relationships, privacy issues, stalking, ghosting, mental health (depression, PPD, self-harm)
Spoilers up to 5x07
Inspiration: ‘I believe in believe’ by iwouldntstopforaredlight (Ted Lasso)
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Rosh Hashanah is the start of the Jewish new year. We say l'shana tovah, which means have a good year. Apples and challah (dipped in honey) are symbols of hope for a sweet new year. :)
(just read through your recent asks) it feels like maybe your only consuming one "side" of this fandom tbh. there's a LOT about how people prioritize booker, a lot already written about bias/racism regards to joe and Nile (who's... ignored a LOT, esp her past as a marine) and also a lot about the blatant xenophobia in regards to nicky (and luca) and the med identity and accents (like those nicky/luca is stupid b/c of accent posts that people just found funny). its all been talked about at length
part 2 i guess - there's been so much bullying in this fandom to poc that im actually TERRIFIED of having my screen name here, so anon. just let this stuff die, don't vagueblog (people get BULLIED over that), and talk to people directly instead of making people anxious about the discourse and nasty atmosphere coming back. people are leaving this fandom bc of it. white ppl are constantly talking over ppl of colour in this fandom. bc if we disagree, we're wrong. its just got to stop.(dif anon btw)
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Hi anon,
So to clarify, my Booker post (which started this) was based on A03 fanfic, not tumblr. Actually, except for the stuff about n/j t/b, all of this was based on A03 fanfic. I agree, my tumblr experience (and frankly people's fandoms experience in general - that's how fandom works) definitely tend to fall to one (of many) sides, especially because my tumblr experience for this fandom is incredibly small and I've barely made the rounds in my 'fandom circle' much less the rest of it. But yeah, of course even my fanfic experience is somewhat curated, considering there's certain ships and/or tropes I will just automatically skip over, and again it's A03-centric (and English-only) which definitely does not cover all of the fanfic being written, but it's also not a small sample size. [1]
I'm not really disagreeing with your ask (or the previous ones?) I've definitely seen the Nicky/Luca + stupidity/accent, I've minimally seen the Nile + lack of focus/("good") marine stuff mentioned. I haven't seen the Booker/exile meta, which is partly why I wrote up the first post - so I could provide a link in a comment I was leaving on A03 so the author could dis/engage as desired, rather than potentially spiraling their comments into a comment thread they didn't want to engage in. (Again, not to say it doesn't exist, but like I said in that post I haven't seen it yet.) I've removed character tags and the actual fandom tag since placing them five tags back didn't keep it out of the tags, I've been putting stuff under the read more to hopefully help block tumblr's search function even more, I deleted the vague n/j tags because I agree they sound like they were related to n/j t/b discourse and re-opening that can of worms is unnecessary and not something I wanted to touch on even before, uh, this, and didn't mean to touch on with those tags either. Like these posts should now be retained to my blog alone, and out of the general and/or character specific tumblr tags, which I didn't want them in in the first place. (Like if the read more thing actually makes a difference, I'm fine deleting the first anon post and re-posting it under a read more since it mentions the n/j t/b thing if that needs help being invisible, if that post is still showing up.)
As for the last point - I don't think people are wrong for disagreeing with my take for my Booker or my Joe post. Again, most stuff is fandom circle based and like I said in the Joe post, that's my interpretation of a pattern I noticed and ymmv.[2] But if the interpretation is one you agree with[3], I do find it unconvincing to say racial bias managed to not be a (subconscious) factor in how that interpretation came to be, considering a) the general mindset of how race/racism (and other isms) affect fandoms (and everything else) and b) how similar subtle trends like the ones listed have connected to racism in other fandoms. Like sure, maybe it doesn’t, but it’s a mindset fans of color have been talking about in multiple fandoms, over multiple years, and I agree with that side of the argument.... so I guess yeah by default I do think you’re wrong. [I feel like we’re meaning two different things by that word? In which I mean people in fandom have different takes and if your take is in disagreement with mine, I’m going to think you’re wrong, whereas you mean it more as I find you as a human/fan/poc wrong. And if I’m correct in how you’re meaning the word, I’m not saying it comes out of left field - for fandoms in general or (esp) for this fandom specifically - and like I said in the Joe post, I'm not going to say you a fan of color have to interact with fandom a certain way with regards to racism in any direction, or have a specific opinion about it, it is 100% not my place. But like yes, for the first definition, we’re going to disagree on interpretations and how those interpretations came to be.] On my end, in general there's not a monolithic reaction on how/if (white) fans should/shouldn't talk about racism in fandom, so while this fandom circle (aka the anons about these posts) seem to think it's a topic that shouldn't be touched on (in general or possibly by white fans specifically), I came from fandoms were you are supposed to - if not talk about it, not ignore it either.
However, like everyone has been saying and like I've been agreeing with, real people within a fandom are more important than fictional characters.
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[1] There's a kind of implied point in the first part of this ask that a) conversations in fandom are supposed to be one and done (possibly just meant if they're contentious?) and b) that someone is expected to know everything that happens in a (very large) fandom that I don't think are very reasonable. Not everyone was in the fandom to start with, not everyone is going to be able to touch on all fandom discussions or search in depth before interacting with it, and fandoms in general go through waves of similar discussions.
[2] Not 100% sure what the vagueblog is commenting on? The Nicky/Joe tags? I agreed, I removed them. I don't think the Joe post is vagueblogged because I tried to focus on specific versions of the attitude I was noticing, and I do think there's a difference between vagueblogging and talking about general patterns. The Booker post I don't think of as vagueblogging until arguably the last footnote, which the Joe post expanded on. It's also hard to get too specific because a) I'm definitely not going to list a bunch of fic as examples in a post; b) there's not some specific sentence that triggers it, but just this feeling I was left with and kept being left with; and c) what happens in one fanfic doesn't have the same... issue? weight? problem? (actionable sentences that can be pointed to?) as it does if it happens in multiple fanfics and/or across fandoms.
[3] tbh I can't tell from how it's written if you agree that racism/xenophobia plays a role in the things you list in the first part of this ask, or if you think those issues (again, if you think they are issues in fandom and not just people accusing fandom of things) are separate from that.
last two anons - your under the read more. but basically I’m sorry, I didn’t realize how the tags on the third post about Booker/Exile discussion sounded, I agree with your point, and I removed them.
anon 1:
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1/4 hey, just an FYI, but nearly everyone knows this, has been over the discourse, agrees and knows biases/racism exist. ppl have had death threats over saying they prefer one position to another even when it's properly written. ppl have been horribly bullied over FICTIONAL character, + more than one person (one that WAS MENA/LGBTQ+) was bullied off the site and was called horrible names. the discourse is, at this point, horrible. We ALL KNOW racism exists in fandom, but real ppl are hurting…
2/4 when they are not actually being racist. If someone is PLEASE feel free to talk to them, but we have been over all this within this fandom, multiple times. NO ONE should get death threats for writing top nicky OR top joe. Yet posts like yours are bringing back discourse instead of talking about it with an author who could have VERY easily made a mistake. There are much more productive ways to fight bias/racism in fiction, other than bringing back an atmosphere that...
¾ allowed people to have their art stolen, get horribly bullied, get death threats, forced to out their trauma, get called names, etc… if there IS a fic/art/etc… that is showing bias and racism talking to the creator is ALWAYS more helpful. People fuck upm they have biases, and they should learn. But PLEASE don’t bring up this horrible atmosphere again. It’s not helping, even though I’m sure you’re only wanting to help.
4/4 ppl will have different opinions on characters than you do, than I do… and that’s FINE. People have different experiences, people come from different countries with different views, people have different biases, trauma, etc. We can’t expect people to all be the same and have the same ideas on the characters. And if you DO have evidence of people being racist to joe… show that to the creator. Blogging in a vague manner does not help. It makes ppl HATE the fandom. That’s not fair to anyone.
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anon 2:
hello! so Im actually brown and muslim (from egypt but live in the UK rn) and honestly... a lot of this fandom shit is SHIT. there's racism yes, as there is in every fandom cause PEOPLE but not nearly as much as you made there out to be. it kinda is reading like you're trying to bring back the discourse after its done. the WORST part of this fandom has been those "white saviours" deriding anything they think is wrong as racism instead of communicating well, in an effort to "help".
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follow-up to this (post about fandom and Booker and the Exile), this (post about fandom and Joe's feelings with regard to the exile in response to an ask that brought up the controversy), and this (post someone saying they liked what I wrote for the second post)
First, I agree with you! No one should get death threats over fictional characters. Real people are more important than fandom/fictional things/etc. People shouldn't steal art. People are all different, have different experiences, and interact with canon/characters/fandom differently.(That's not, like, carte blanche for fandom which it can be taken as, but yeah people headcanon and focus on different parts.) And I also agree talking to an individual creator can be helpful, and I have done so before and will again, though (not including this joe/nicky top/bottom topic cause of what it turned into) sometimes it's less about something being an issue for an individual fic and more about the larger fandom pattern, and I think that’s fair to talk about on your own blog.
Second, I can definitely see why you read my third post's tags as having to do with the top/bottom nicky/joe debate, and while that was not what I meant with them (I was actually vagueblogging about something completely different, but did not contextualize that well when doing the tags), and for that I am sorry. I too have 0 fucking interest in restarting that topic. I was actually starting a completely different topic (Booker and the exile) and it got brought up in an ask, so I answered it (under a read more) and well, here we are. But yes, I agree that topic should be put to bed because literally no good can come of it on a more fandom-wide scale and vagueblogging about that def. doesn't help. I'm removing the tags and saying why.
Holy shit I read your response to that anon + I think your breakdown of “three ways racism gets responded to in fandom” AND your analysis of side a / side b re; the top!joe bottom!nicky discourse over time are both super accurate. It’s been really frustrating and upsetting to see develop at times, especially because it feels like there are layers - how to identify and respond to racism that might exist in the canon, racism in how characters might be portrayed in canon or fanon, and racism in how fans are treated. There are no easy answers for what to do about any of this but I’m so relieved someone else has been noticing similar things to me in a similar way, and expressed them so succinctly and articulately. So thank you for sharing your thoughts!!
re this
I really appreciate you sending this feedback/ask in. :)
I agree with everything except the last sentence. I know it's trendy lately, but we really don't need to mix racism with everything. For me, a POC girl, this is as ridiculous as saying that liking top! Joe is racist. I am glad that people have become more aware of certain things, but you cannot exaggerate it and see racism EVERYWHERE. Even where it is not the case.
re: this post
Well, thanks for sending in an ask. There's kind of a lot of parts to this I want to address, but first let me ask - do you disagree with my assessment that Joe gets more blame for the exile and exile length, or do you disagree with my assessment that Joe getting that blame comes from a pattern of fandom racism? Because the first is a fandom interpretation and as always, interpretations will vary and be heavily based on the fandom circles you are in; it's based on a pattern I noticed in my engagement with fandom, the same way I noticed fandom's treatment around Booker's exile, and I find the two intricately linked. Some people (like possibly you) may not connect fandom's prioritization of Booker's pain/trauma to be implicitly (or explicitly) against Joe specifically, rather than against the group of Andy, Nicky, and Joe. [Regarding not naming Nile, the fact that she is a) new and b) voted for the apology-only means she seems to rarely get conflated into the blame game.] Like, ymmv, etc etc.
However, if you do think Joe gets specifically and repeatedly put on a different level from the other two in terms of being the one to heavily push for a long exile (against group opinion), being the one who wanted the strictest "punishment" possible because he's the angry/resentful/unforgiving one, being the only one who wanted the "punishment", being emotional (irrational) in his hurt while the other two are calm and collected (and therefore rational/objective in their decision), that his reaction is going to be a continued vocalization of his anger only and/or that his vocalization is a problem but Andy's immediate reaction or Nicky's silent treatment isn't, that his reaction is only anger while Nicky and Andy are disappointed/hurt/guilty/etc (aka a spectrum of emotions and not just one note), that his main motivation is retribution (esp that the other two don't feel that), that his anger is based on and only on selfish hurt (for hurting Nicky) while the others are looking at the larger picture of Booker's actions or able to see Booker's side of it, that he is quick to temper (unlike the others) and can't control his response, and/or that in general his anger about the betrayal isn't justified, I don't quite get why you wouldn't assume racial bias has a role in it.
Like, Joe is a different character from them! He's considered the emotional one, the expressive one, the vocal and loud one (to varying degrees of fairness.) The genesis of those traits exists in canon, and fandom as always has the weird ability to both flatten a character to specific traits and layer on complexity to the shown facets of character's canon. I even get why he gets tagged as the most mad in comparison to the others (though I don't actually agree with it) - the way Andy had her angry moment with Booker but doesn't continue with that anger in the lab and she's caring with Booker in her goodbye, Nicky basically tells Joe now is not the time to yell at Booker and then you never see him interact (look at?) Booker again, and again Nile wanted to let him off with an apology. I'm not saying it doesn't make sense or comes completely out of left field to view it that way.
But again, it's not that he reacts differently; they're all different people and obviously their reactions will reflect their personalities and their relationship to Booker. It's that his reaction to betrayal is held to a different standard, the way he's subtly and consistently painted as wrong for his reaction in a way the other two aren't. And to be clear, I am specifically and only talking about the dynamic around Booker's exile and Joe, and not how Joe in general is written, but there's some touches of it in that too. My comment is also very much not about one specific fic or one individual's opinion about either Joe or the exile, but about the pattern I noticed that Joe's reaction is often treated with a different (lesser) level of acceptance than Nicky's/Andy's, that his reaction is often assigned more/only negative motivations (esp in comparison), and that (which ties to the main point of my first post) his reaction (even if - though it’s not - just anger) should be de-prioritized in comparison to Booker (or the others.)
And obviously, this isn't all fic. Maybe not the majority of fic. But it's definitely more than one; it's something I started to pick up on as a potential thing to look for, and I know I'm not the only one. This is a large fandom and it is growing. This fandom on A03 alone has almost 6k works, and that's been in six months. (And that's just one platform!) It is frankly preposterous to me to say this one (large) fandom is somehow the only fandom where racial bias isn't a factor, or that it doesn't affect how all the characters get written.
(also I think it's worth bringing up while my original post, this ask, and this response have been heavily leaning on words about fandom's racism, I don't think that's divorced from its Islamophobia and the western (US/Hollywood) racialization of Muslims.)
As for the general fandom and racism discussion - look, I'm not going to speak over you a poc and say you should or have to notice racism in everything. It is 100% not my place to tell you how to experience/react to racism, how to interact with fandom and racism, or to say you are doing it wrong.
I'm personally coming from a different mindset - that racism does affect everything, and that fandom is absolutely not different in that regard, and that reactions to racism (either for people of color in general or the specific identity being talked about) are not monolithic.
I also think - while I get why you use it - the word 'trendy' does a disservice to fandom racism discussions and how those got co-opted and conflated in the larger cancel/call out culture. Cause
racism being used as an excuse/reason to cancel something ("I hate this, and here's racism as a reason no one should like it/why you are a bad person for liking it")
racism being discussed as an important issue canon failed at ("I'm criticizing the canon and depending on what it is, I may think canon's racism should hold the highest priority in terms of canon's worth")
racism being looked at through the lens of fandom ("racism permeates every facet of this world and that includes canon/fandom, here's how")
are all different things, and while the first one is used a lot more, and all of them are a lot more visible now, I don't think the other two are that much more accepted than they were before.
I only caught the periphery bones of the top/bottom joe/nicky controversy, but my understanding is these two sides collided very badly: side a) early into fandom people pointed out the trend, related it to how that trend works in every other fandom, discussed specifically how bias in interracial and interfaith relationships are likely to show up in this fandom and that dynamic, called for more nuance/thought into this dynamic, and all of that got flattened into "top!Joe is and only is racist, and you're a racist for liking it." and side b) because call out/cancel/purity culture, fans (specifically including fans of color) were being called racist for either engaging in the characters the "wrong way" or not engaging at all, pushing them to create content they didn't want to create, left the fandom due to harassment/bullying, and got treated like even the hint of top!Joe was the Worst Thing They Could Ever Do, so that even suggesting racial bias may play a part on shipping dynamics for joe/nicky is completely unreasonable/without merit. That, again, is how my (limited) view followed the issue, and like everyone else where I fall on the spectrum of that discussion is very much dependent on the circles of fandom I float in.
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I'm assuming somewhere out there is already meta for why the exile wasn’t wrong, but fuck if you can find shit on tumblr anymore, so here's mine:
I'm not denying Booker needs help; he's suicidal, he's depressed, he's tangled in his own grief and loneliness, he’s got survivor’s guilt, he's likely got complex-ptsd along with his alcoholism and probably some other stuff. I admit, the shorthand of "fuck Booker" is not nuanced to that. That said, I am really not a fan of this fandom narrative that his depression, grief, etc, is a good reason for his actions [1], that his victims owe him enough immediate forgiveness to continue to help him in the aftermath of his actions, that he is the only hurting person in this situation, or that his (self)-destruction - obviously a common symptom - didn't blow up a very basic foundation between him and the others that doesn't just get waived away by an apology.
(Which... he never actually offers? Fandom posits he apologizes and feels bad for what he does in the aftermath, but that's one interpretation, and canon can just as easily be read that he gets a little bit of a rude awakening when Andy is mortal, but frankly he comes across as someone who is sorry it didn't work out and he ended up in a worse place, not for what he did.)
Plus, I think a lot of fandom mindset works under what happened [2] and not on what he either planned or did not see the obvious pathway was going to happen [3], as well as ignoring some of the context he put into the situation (his resentment of Joe and Nicky didn't just magically disappear after they escaped), and are looking at his end result (even less familial support than before, in the apartment getting drunk - and shit knows loneliness/isolation is an esp hot button for people right now) and not on the fact he just sold out his family to experience their worst nightmares (a fact he's reminded of again in the middle of his betrayal) and that they can't trust him.
THEY CAN'T TRUST HIM.
They had no way to see this coming because it would never have occurred to them, but that barn door is open now. What keeps him from calling in their new safe house? maybe finding a different kind of partner, leading them to another trap on a job? hell, maybe contact Kozak again [4] and see if she made any progress. share their secrets with someone new. do they have to hope Andy's mortality (which is the only thing that made him pause) will reach him enough when apparently their love and affection didn't before? what happens when she dies? what sign are they supposed to somehow intuit if he tips from bad mental health to making actionable decisions to try to die and dragging everyone else into it with him again? if someone picks up this trail of breadcrumbs Copley and Merrick left, is he going to help clean up or go with it?
Basically, what stops him from doing this to them again?
Like, I can arguably make a list for reasons I don't think they should have 100 year exiled him (though again, time works on a different scale for them [5]), but at this point I am definitely pushing back on the dominant fandom idea that the exile in and of itself was wrong [6], or that it was only a punishment.
They are going to feel guilty for what they did/didn't do to help him, for not seeing how bad it got [7], (in Andy's case esp) for helping him lean into the bad coping mechanisms, and yeah some of that does need to be owned, but they should not feel guilty for him betraying them or needing time away to deal with that betrayal. It's funny, cause my immediate response after seeing the movie was that the betrayal story line did not work for me, but it's canon and the response that they should put aside their reaction to help him definitely feels like it ignores the severity of what he actually did to them and how long it could take to (emotionally, mentally) recover from it. That they owe Booker to put it aside to help him. That the others are wrong for the choice they made because of a situation he put them in. [8] He didn't mind them being tortured, being separated, or being dead; if they want a 100 years to figure out how to continue to love and welcome someone who would do that to them, how to trust someone like that again, they get a 100 years. And at the end of the day, even Booker understood that.
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[1] mental illness does not cause you to try to murder someone (and it is very clear that even if he thinks Andy wanted to die, he knows Joe and Nicky do not, not to mention Nile), and that's frankly a very harmful myth used to dismiss larger violent patterns irl
[2] 2 days of medical experiments, Andy being (luckily!) non-lethally shot, I'd add Nile's general mental well-being but lbr that doesn't tend to factor into it for fandom
[3] Joe, Nicky, Andy, and later Nile be taken and medically experimented on/tortured until... well, forever, cause honestly it's a big assumption they'd let them go or kill them even if they discovered the secret to their death; earlier on, Nile either being left alone - yanno, the thing he said was his reason for doing this (even if it's obviously just a part of the tangled reaction for why he did it) with no answers and forever dreaming about their torture and/or more specifically Nile being left at the mercy of the us military/govt with no answers and forever dreaming about their torture while experiencing her own.
[4] them not killing Kozak or destroying the lab was hollywood-sloppy - even though I totally love the hc that either a) their spilled body parts disintegrate after a bit or b) there is absolutely nothing in their system that shows their immortality - but it does mean there's a little more clean-up needed than Copley erasing some tapes.
[5] which is not an excuse to infantilize him? he's a grown man. he may be young compared to the others, but he's not actually a "teenager" and he's esp not too young to realize the ramifications of his actions (aka that his family won’t react well to him selling them out)
[6] maybe not the smartest choice in terms of safety since they'd have even less ability to see if he betrays them or himself again, and being split up makes them more vulnerable, but also not wrong; it's basically a load of shitty choices and that's the one they picked. cause like he said, what else can they do? frankly, now or in a 100 years, Booker is the one that needs to rebuild trust, but at least 100 years gives the rest of them some time to deal with their own trauma before having to deal with him either trying (or not) to fix what he broke, leaves them possibly more open and receptive to changes he’s made.
[7] though as someone whose been on both sides of it, the idea you should be able to just tell how bad it actually is for someone (or even tell that it is bad) is frankly not actually that realistic or fair; people are very often good at hiding and/or downgrading how bad it is
[8] and specifically that Joe is wrong for the choice they made. like the fact Andy and Nicky both want to get him out the building or that Nicky isn't vocal in his reaction means they didn't reach this decision together, that Joe is the only angry one, that Joe is the only one to aggressively pursue this course of action. like, come on, the pattern of this definitely comes from fandom's racism
It’s when a character is left looking incredibly orange, skin tone-wise. I can probably show you better than telling you, so below are three gifs! The first is without coloring, the second is an example of orangewashing, and the third is the result of me going back to correct the second.
Pro: "I am something" / Jane getting to say enough, I like myself and then getting her book published. It’s not enough and I feel like the narrative cuts it off at the knees when the Dad finally give his speech at the end (’Jane just wanted to be included’ like she didn’t have legitimate and long-lasting grievances of being pushed aside by everyone in her family for being autistic), but at least she gets to have that moment.
Con: It's basically just watching a queer character get packed tighter and tighter into a closet her girlfriend puts her in and then blames her for. on Christmas. It’s emotional claustrophobia as queer story line, but it’s packaged like it’s understandable and just part and parcel because the emotional claustrophobia is queer.
Like, I get it’s probably, actually, coming from the other side - watching a queer character terrified of coming out and overcompensating and then because she needed comfort gets forced out and is exposed in front of her family and community. on Christmas. (which, by the by, also not the holiday feel good movie I was hoping for) - but the problem is Harper puts her in this situation when she didn’t have to be, didn’t warn her, and didn’t try to help her navigate it. (Instead didn’t notice, and then got mad about her actions and the fact Abby spent time talking to the only person who was nice - and not calling her Orphan Abby - who happened to be the ex she also fucked over.) I feel like the two story lines got conflated, and to be fair some of that is apparently on me for getting angry about the wrong thing (based on the last part of the movie’s dialogue/fights), but not coming out to her parents was understandable, Abby originally understood it, that wasn’t the issue, (and way also to just roll over on everything else with that quick turnaround by the parents), it’s that Harper continuously lied about it and set her up when she didn’t have to and then left her on the sidelines for it. And that’s part of Harper’s personality, which is made very clear with the backstory with Riley and her interactions with her sisters/parents. That’s the part I took issue with, and that’s the part that got consumed by the (forced) coming out and forgiveness for not coming out sooner. Harper being in the closet was not the issue, Harper putting Abby in the closet and not noticing how hard it was for her is the issue.
Hey! I read your recent post and it read differently to a lot of posts under the destiel tag as of now. Personally, I’ve seen the first 5 seasons (watched it about 5 yrs ago), but haven’t been caught up to date on any of the recent stuff other than the Destiel apocalypse that’s happening right now. Could you explain the following?
“...mostly being this show is a misogynistic racist homophobic consent issue-ridden pile of bad writing “.
I was contemplating returning to the show and tuning in for the missing seasons, but what you said about it has now placed me on the fence. Could you elaborate and advise?
Thank you so much! I appreciate seeing an honest post that doesn’t sugar-coat or overlook bad writing/negative characteristics of a show!! :)
[re this]
Hi!
Well, I feel like the finale probably took care of any fence-sitting you were doing (and sorry I couldn't reply sooner), but actually my answer wasn't going to change even if the finale was okay (good, imo, was always a stretch): No, I personally would not recommend watching this show. and while my answer is mostly because of the things I am going to list to answer the rest of this question, I was also going to say - you dropped the show in s5 and that was five years ago? Whatever caused you to drop it in the first place, it probably got a lot worse. (It literally doesn't even matter what your major grievance was, they have since doubled, tripled down in terms of how bad it was.) Trying to marathon through ten seasons (20-23 episodes long each) is hard; trying to marathon through all of that to get something without a satisfactory ending is a lot of emotional labor for no payout. It's not just that this is a bad show (though it really, really is, on every level); it's that you have already tried it, you tried arguably the better seasons of it, and you still didn't want to stick to it. By the nature of how tumblr works, it can make anything look so much better than it is, just because in general the people you see hyping it up *like* the product, have decided to devote their fandom time to it, are highlighting the choicest parts of it. spn was always about the potential around the edges, the story fans made of it; the actual product was always secondary to the could have, should have beens, and this gets truer the later into the show you get. I'm not saying there weren't some great episodes, some great scenes, and even some great mini-arcs, but it was a drop in the bucket to everything else. and I'm positing this answer on the idea that you are asking because you want to watch the show, and not because you want to use the show as a supplemental for your fandom experience, but if it is the latter, I'll just say I'm currently heavily involved in reading fanfic for a fandom I've never actually watched a whole episode for, and while I'm probably missing some context I'm still highly enjoying it. fandom, honestly, so often becomes so much more than the bones we build it on. and if you want a little more, catch some "greatest hits" videos or catch up on just some of the “must-see” episodes and save yourself from having to watch all the moments in-between, because there are a lot more of them than the good parts. very few shows improve as they age out, and before the nov 5th resurgence if you weren't already following spn blogs, likely the main spn meme you were coming across was the annual 'salt and burn this dead horse' that went out after each season renewal. the tl;dr answer is really, it's not worth it. (to be honest, at the end of the day, despite the sheer amount of time, energy, and words I've put into this fandom over the years, and I put in a lot, I didn't actually like the majority of the show. so, you know, grain of salt on my opinion. then again, you left it seasons before I did.)That said, buckle up, cause now I'm gonna tell you why:
[ID: 1) Shikamaru off screen with Naruto talking about how he should be Hokage, text: What remains once the war is won?; 2) the back of Hokage!Naruto, his coat fluttering in the wind, text: Fame.; 3) Naruto being interviewed on TV, the Hokage mountain between their heads, text: Statues.; 4) Itachi kneeling to the Hokage, bathed in red light, text: A kingdom; 5) bodies shackled to the wall leading to Orochimaru at a table, cuts to him digging his hands into the body’s chest/side, text: of corpses.; 6) Sasuke using Naruto's hand to make hand signals as they fought, text: (His name; 7) older!Naruto looking at younger!Sasuke on the dock, who is staring at his reflection in front of him, text: too heavy; 8) older Sasuke walking away in the forest, text: in my mouth.); 9) scan of all the Hokage pictures in Naruto’s office, text: What do we keep once we are ghosts? // end ID]
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[ID: 1) close-up of Sasuke's knee bending to the floor, ice needles dropping, Haku throwing ice needles at Sasuke, who pushes Naruto out of the way, text: through thick and thin; 2) Naruto pointing to Sasuke, who starts arguing back, and then Kakashi sighing, his shoulders slumping, text: that's what they say; 3) Sasuke holding Naruto up with lightning in his chest, text: forgive and forget; 4) Sasuke looking at the hole Naruto put in the water tank on the hospital roof, getting mad, text: well it's me that has to change; 5) Naruto alone in the hospital bed, bandages on his face, looking at Sasuke's cut headband, text: your endless needs; 6) Itachi walking out of their childhood home, text: my breaking grieves; 7) scan up of older!Naruto standing by a slumped young!Sasuke on the dock, their reflection in the water, text: you look this way; 8) older Sasuke and Naruto in the forest staring at each other, text: but you don't see // end ID]
[insp] Sasuke Uchiha’s Week: Day 3: Avenger & Day 5: Favorite Arc
[ID: 1) close-up of Itachi's lower half of his face, cut to young!Sasuke staring at him, text: This is how it starts; 2) Itachi putting a fist into Sasuke's stomach, who doubles over, vomits, and then falls in front of his parents' bodies, text: the fever; 3) Sasuke, eyes wide with hatred, slamming the chidori in the wall and running toward (off screen Itachi), text: the rage; 4) Itachi breaking Sasuke's wrist, lightning from his chidori still sparking off his hand, text: the feeling of; 5) Itachi holding Sasuke against the wall by his neck, blood on both sides of Sasuke's mouth, text: powerlessness; 6) Sasuke, head bent, climbing up the hospital steps to the roof (off screen Naruto following him), text: that turns good men cruel; 7) Kakashi holding the wire wrapped around Sasuke keeping him tied to a tree, Sasuke looking up mad at him, text: it builds; 8) Sasuke letting a leaf fall into his palm, has a flashback to Itachi's face, and then squeezing the leaf, text: brick by brick; 9) Sasuke walking into the forest (after the first Valley fight with Naruto) and the screen fades to black around his figure, text: until nothing else is left //end ID]
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