B'coz I have you this time..

What "total demise of Cloti" ended up happening? 🧐🤔

What did end up happening canonically was "You've been weird all day" and "but I didn't do anything" VS. "Not one bit" and "A Tender Kiss"

But sure anti's, we totally lost to you guys...

🙃

@mamacoco12264 @callmederok

Wow, just…wow. There’s a lot to unpack with this tweet. Let’s take it from the top, shall we?

First of all, where exactly was the “total demise of Cloti” in ReTrilogy? Was it when the devs removed the option of having Cloud give either Tifa or Marlene the flower as it was in OG so Cloud has no choice but to give it to Tifa? Was it when Cloud and Tifa nearly kissed in Gongaga with Yuffie and Cait Sith chanting “Kiss! Kiss!” outside the door? Was it when they were finally kissed on the gondola at the Gold Saucer, a kiss that Cloud himself initiated? Where was Aerith's kiss? So Cloud won't kiss the girl he's supposedly in love with, despite her dragging him around on multiple dates, but he WILL kiss the girl that he only has fleeting feelings for? Yeah, that makes perfect sense 👌🏾

And what “fleeting romantic feelings for Tifa” are they referring to? Cloud joined SOLDIER just so Tifa could notice him. Cloud’s SOLDIER identity was based on his goal of being a SOLDIER for Tifa. Cloud invites Tifa into his mind when both of them fall into the lifestream in Mideel. None of these are things someone does with someone else they have fleeting romantic feelings for. 

And where is the scale of Cloud’s love for Aerith shown? Was it when she drags him around on dates which he doesn’t seem too thrilled about? Was it when she told him she was treating something like a date and he said “I wish you wouldn’t?” Was it when she gestured for him to sit next to her on their gondola date and he looked at her and proceeded to sit on the OTHER SIDE? Was it when Aerith told Cloud on said date that she was searching for him and he said “I’m right here” and Aerith said “Yeah, but—” and Cloud cut her off to ask if Tifa talked to her about Zack? Was it when Cloud said “you’ve been weird all day?” during the dream date and “nakama-zoned” her in the Japanese version? Where exactly is this grand love Cloud supposedly has for Aerith? Cause I’m not seeing it. Maybe someone can enlighten me with some scenes I might have overlooked or some information in the Ultimanias that I’m not privy to.

But the real kicker of this tweet is OP accusing Clotis of “constant twisting of the narrative, bullying of devs and other fans, targeted harassment, misogyny towards Aerith…” and saying that if Clotis can't respect the devs' work why should they give them anything. 

Cleriths are the ones doing the constant twisting of the narrative. They’re the ones claiming any clearly romantic scene with Cloud and Tifa isn’t romantic, writing off Crisis Core as “non-canon” and ToTP and Dear Destiny as “fanfiction,” and basically ignoring anything that doesn’t fit their narrative that Clerith is the canon ship. 

Cleriths are the ones who have been bullying the devs and other fans. They’ve been harassing Nojima and Hamaguchi on Twitter demanding that they make Clerith endgame in Part 3, and according to their subreddit, they’re already planning on sending hate mail to Nojima if they don’t get their way in Part 3. And they’ve been the ones harassing Clotis and even other Zeriths as well. Even making cute Zerith fanart will incur the wrath of these rabid fans who apparently have nothing better to do than make everyone miserable around them. 

And to take it one step further, they’re the ones guilty of targeted harassment. They’re the ones harassing Cloti streamers. They pretty much forced Spy-D to turn his comments off on Twitter, and I don’t think he’s even a Cloti. He just pointed out on Twitter how soft Cloud’s voice becomes when he talks to Tifa and the Cleriths lost their minds over it. You say anything positive about Cloud and Tifa’s relationship and suddenly you’re an idiot who doesn’t know what you’re talking about.

Cleriths are the ones constantly being misogynistic towards Tifa.  They’re the ones calling her disparaging names like “slut” and “porn star” and claiming that Tifa is only popular because of her chest size and anyone who likes her is a gooner. I mean, just look at the responses to the tweet Square Enix DE made about Tifa asking fans to retweet with three words that could be used to describe her. A Clerith commented with Tifa’s body measurements. I had no idea what Tifa’s measurements were, but somehow the Cleriths have that information memorized. And they also have her stats on porn sites ready at their disposal. You can’t complain about misogyny when you’re camping out underneath Tifa’s appreciation posts like you have nothing better to do in life than to bash her. You sound hypocritical and no one is going to take you seriously. 

But OP is right about one thing. If you can’t respect the work of the devs, they shouldn’t give you anything. So under that logic, the Cleriths shouldn’t get anything since they can’t respect the devs’ work. 

I cannot WAIT for Part 3 to drop just so I can see how these "fans" react. Let’s see who really respects the work of the devs then. 

Barret literally speedran his own arc by the end of the first game. He's no longer an evil bruiser chasing revenge and justifying the sacrifice of innocents with the noble goal of saving the planet. He's a sweet papa bear who's outgrown his thirst for revenge and is now fighting for Marlene's future. He doesn't even want to kill Rude, who dropped the stove. Because he decided not to shoot him but to fight him in a fistfight.

Tifa literally has no flaws, she doesn't make questionable decisions, in principle. At the start of the remake, she's quite happy living in the slums and running a bar. She morally explains to Cloud why he was wrong to try to kill Johnny, when exactly yesterday Cloud and her friends blew up the reactor with a bunch of subsequent victims. And killing one person who can lead to the death of the entire Avalanche cell is a completely appropriate decision in this situation. And she's right, and you know why, because the writers want it that way. She's already finished her arc, now he's fighting for the planet. She has a couple of far-fetched flaws that don't match her actions. That she doesn't like conflicts (though she wasn't very restrained in her expressions with Cloud in Kalm), and that it turns out she can't make friends easily (which, however, doesn't stop her from having a ton of friends her entire life). Talented in everything she does, insanely beautiful, smart, mature, strong.

Aerith is a total badass, now she's an all-knowing goddess who plays 4D chess against Sephiroth in multi-realities. Capable of throwing Cloud and Zack into a pocket reality to transfer all sorts of goodies to the main reality. In OG, her death was tragic, because the game said that she didn't want to die, in the Remake, it's self-sacrifice like Jesus. And can she even die? Sephiroth turned her off twice (in the Church, the Capital) and this does not stop her from helping Cloud give Sephiroth a beating.

Sephiroth literally climbed out and Sefikura fanfics, he does not want to kill Cloud, he saves him. But then he still shoves him into this Edge of Creation and fights with him. (Why is he fighting him? If he needs Cloud) Purely a gay faggot from space who wants Cloud to pierce him. (And not with a sword)

Zack - a Gary stu version of Tidus

Yuffie - Rikku clone/

The fact that they expanded the dialogues between the characters is a consequence of the fact that,

1 that the game was divided into three parts, (it is logical that the characters will have more dialogues)

2 that they have technologies 25 years more advanced, and the voice acting in games and cinematography are now the standard, compared to 1997.

3 That they are given incomparably more time and money for each of these parts.

The characters themselves are not written any better. All their shortcomings from the OG are either removed or very much smoothed out. (Except for Cloud, of course, who is responsible for 99% of the angst.) Villains, if they are beautiful, then they become morally gray or tragic (Turks, Rufus, Sephiroth), those whose in-game models are unattractive are 100% cartoonishly evil. (Hojo, Corneo). To please that part of the fans who play the remake with one hand (which is about 70% of the entire fan base).

Fanservice fantasy 7. For fans of the compilation, with a bunch of references to it.

"why do you even like the remake?" Making a lot of assumptions here. I don't like the remake, in fact I find it to be an absolute insult to the OG in almost every way. Them seemingly trying to finally squash the love square debate is one of the few good things I have to say about it. In fact, I think the strongest argument one could make for Clerith would most likely be: "If Clerith were correct this would be an extremely shallow and poorly written meaningless story, and the addition of plot ghosts, chapter 2 Sephiroth reveals, and good guy Cid proves, that is indeed what remake is!". Apparently Nintendo revealed that Mario and Peach are "just friends", so you can never completely count out companies being bat-shit insane. I still want to review Rebirth at some point, but I just don't have the motivation. I argue about this because I love the OG, and it annoys me how wrong people are about this story, but I have very little love for what SE is doing to the remake project. The parts that are faithful are mostly excellent, literally every other choice they made though? Not so much. Yeah thanks SE, I love fighting Sephiroth at the end of every game, that will totally make him intimidating rather than, you know, completely impotent.

I'll agree that Retri downgrade a lot of characters, but Tifa is NOT one of them. Tifa is, in my opinion, the *only* well written character left. And ofc I'm being biased as hell, hence my name, but if you truly judge Retri from plot alone compared to OG, Tifa is the only one that actually resembles any core narrative of the classic.

Firstly tho, I need to correct some points of anon.

No, Barret's arc was ruined in Dyne chapter. Literally spit in the accumulation of his arc and suffering. Barret's relationship with Cloud and Avalanche isn't the focus of his arc. And Barret has ALWAYS been a loving father. He improves his relationship with Avalanche, Cloud, and Marlene doesn't take anything away from Barret. And that Rude thing is, let's face it, just a way to keep the Turks around, same with Rufus and Cloud pointless fights.

No, where they truly fucking failed at writing Barret is with Shinra. And this is 1 bullet for 2 birds. Cos holy hell, doesn't SE just HELLA water Shinra down in Rebirth. Genuinely crazy how little Shinra's brutality is portrayed in Rebirth. We spend whole Junon being buddy with the troopers. They're the victim in Gongaga, in Golden saucer, in Temple of the Ancient. They have a whole side quest dedicated to doing good deed. Like, is Shinra even a villain anymore? Cos now I just feel bad for them. Which is crazy cos Nojima DOES know how to write Shinra right. In Trace of 2 pasts, in Tifa's section, Shinra is such an overlord. You breath wrong and next day troopers will knock your house down. This novel is published right before Rebirth so idk what happened in the dev room. And when we do have some Shinra villains, we have Rufus being played like a fiddle by a very obvious suspicious Glenn, Palmer twerking his ass at us, the Turks being shrank down clueless Elena. Scarlet is the only one doing her job right. Hojo sounds like a cartoon villain. The only time he poses as an actual dangerous maniac in in Charley's side quest- when it's shown that he's still torturing Charley's living body. BUT IT'S A SIDEQUEST!!! AND DON'T LET ME START WITH NIBELHEIM!!! If I talk about it, we'll need a gg doc instead of a Tumblr post. It's almost like SE is scared to present the embodiment of capitalism as.....bad. Like what's up with that?

So Barret's biggest foils falls flat, leading to his character falling flat too. He becomes too soft on Shinra, and Dyne becomes a joke. Barret is still a good character with potential in part 3, but man, they fucked his sandwich up too many times.

Cloud's characterization is also hella butchered. They rob him too much of his agency in service of other characters, mainly Aerith and Sephiroth. Cloud being tossed in 2 arcs in Rebirth. The first one takes 9 chapters and the second one takes 1 chapter. Guess which one feels more forced.

Aerith is....a lot. I'll make a separate post about her 1 day. But I'll come out and say it, her Retri writing drags a lot of characters down, namely Zack, Cloud, Sephiroth, Tifa and Cid. It's very inconsistent and frankly read like bad fanfic at some parts. Dear destiny may clarify some of them, however, only the in-game portrayal matters. And it's BAD.

Ok, so, Tifa. Let's go over some of anon's points.

"Tifa having no flaws" is crazy statement when we literally spend 2 games watching her struggles juggling between different problems.

Tifa loves the slum? Yeah? That's her home? She spent 5 years building her life from nothing, ofc she'll have a deep connection with that place. Heck is that "criticism?" That's why losing sector 7 later hits so deep. Cos we see this girl once again has to see her home being destroyed by the same evil that she's unable to stop.

Tifa has always hated killing. The only time she sincerely wants to end a life is when she avenged for her dad. And that blood lust almost costs her her life and leaves a scar as a reminder. Tifa isn't on board with the bombing. That's like...the main thing with her at the start. Jessie, Barret and even Cloud keep saying to our faces that Tifa isn't suited for such extreme mission. I don't understand why stopping Johnny is a plot hole. It perfectly lines up with her establishment. Yes, she does agree to go on the mission eventually. And guess what? It costs her Cloud, and by extension, entire sector 7. Any extreme violent act she's participated in ends up costs her something important. On the contrary, sparring Johnny helps Tifa and the gang in the long run. Think about how such patterns will shape her behavior.

Tifa doesn't like conflict, but she does get mad. Almost anytime she shows anger, destruction comes. In the Midgard reactor, in train graveyard, on the train, in Nibelheim reactor, in Corel prison, and yes, in Kalm too. She was about to ask some sensitive questions when the vibe was already tense, but Cloud hit her with some dumbass accusation. That part is pretty stupid ngl, but more on Cloud's part. Cos why does he listen to Sephiroth of all people???? So yeah, she lashes out. Shocker.

This friend thing is especially stupid cos this is just outright refuse to look at the nuances of Tifa. Tifa is a multi dimensional character. She has many different traits that oppose and coexist at the same time. There are layers to Tifa.

She hates being objectified but she is comfortable in her own skin.

She hates violence but is willing to use her power to protect her friends.

She is a people pleaser, which results in her having many friends. But she has to put her own needs and wants behind for said friends.

She's a fast learner but is limited by her own environment.

She wants to settle down but always has to exert herself to the changing of the world.

Her talent is byproduct of having to grow up too fast or else she'll be used and abused.

Back to Rebirth, she's the one tying the narrative back to og instead of whatever the fuck multi verse they pull out of their ass.

In Kalm, she questions Cloud's memory.

In Grassland, she cares about the robed men.

In Junon, she questions Rufus about Shinra's affiliation with the robed men.

In Corel, she questions Barret about his past, which ties back to Shinra.

In Golden Saucer, she's appalled by people's ignorance of the war and the dark side of the human trafficking business operating under the glamor. (Barret also points out the excessive use of Mako for vain entertainment.)

In Gongaga, not only does she deepen her relationship with Cloud and his identity crisis, but she also extends Lifestream mechanism and her connection to the WEAPON.

In Cosmo Cayon, she questions their beliefs and goes against the outdated belief - the belief that enable Shinra's destruction practices on the planet.

In the Temple of the ancient, she actually keeps Cloud's crisis about him instead of...time travel and future memories.

All of the things she involves in revolves around Shinra, SOLDIER, Avalanche, the environment, Lifestream and Cloud's identity crisis- everything OG FF7 was about. We don't have to ask about multiverse bullshit when it comes to her and I thank God for that.