Pain

And then I read the whole argument between @skeleton-bat and @thetepes . And then it became more and more clear this wasn’t about protecting lesboys or mspec lesbians anymore, even if that’s what Skeleton-bat still thinks it’s about. Even if that was the intention. This became about protecting their ego. So oops there goes any nuance, there goes any basic empathy.

I hopefully expressed my discomfort as being seen as being excluded by Lesbians. I didn't appreciate how they were using my identity to hurt my friends and others. I agree there is so much nuance in identity and it's not as simple as woman and man, but I feel like Bats was calling more than one group of people men who don't identify as that and also calling people who identify as women men.

I didn't get to really express any of this the first time we had an interaction because they took advantage of my good faith to hurt me. I told them repeatedly I had trauma around engagements like this and that they were making me uncomfortable and they used that against me. I made the mistake of being vulnerable to try to express to someone I thought was a good person they were hurting others.

Like I tried saying to skeleton-bat, their arguments were utter cow shit. Lesbians do exist in the categories they listed (Intersex, nonbinary, definitely butch) but using these categories to INHERENTLY describe maleness within, lesbian or not, is fucking stretching it.

And while a few of the things said (particularly from Sai) were kinda making me uncomfortable, it wasn’t as horrible or queerphobic as bat is making it out to be. From what I know of Sai, she’s an old school gay who barely understands it pronouns, you think she’s gonna understand the nuances of Lesboys? 😅

I’ve also tried saying this- if you’re going to be arguing in simple terms and without nuance, do not fault for others to be replying in simple terms and without nuance. If you say “lesbians can like like men” without specifying you’re talking about a large group of people with various configurations of gender who are both self indentified lesbians but also some flavor of maleness in their indentity, the AVERAGE person is going to understand you as “any women who likes women likes men” (as binary as possible because our societal gender norms are still binary)

Hell, If I hear you talking about men and men adjacent, I’m gonna assume you’re talking about cis and trans men. Men adjacent again is…. Really in the grey zone here.

I care about my identity, yes. I will defend it and sometimes there are things said by cis lesbians or people who aren’t lesbians at all that hurt or are purposely exclusionary. This was not one of them. Britt especially was charitable and inclusionary in her responses. Sai is very forward, anyone within a 2000 mile radius knows this. You particularly I feel shitty for cuz you obviously didn’t want a part of this in the first place.

The lies bat is pushing about you, about how they treated you is complete malarkey. In the long run, lesbian discourse about lesboys and who gets to say what slur doesn’t matter if we’re causing real ass damage over it. Arguing with strangers on the internet isn’t activism, I had to learn that the hard way.

Real bigots won’t care if cis lesbians accept me or if I count as a lesbian or whatever, they’re going to hurt both of us the same. And real bullies will care more for their rhetoric than actual victims.

I hope one day we can have a more nuanced discussion in the space about gender and sexuality, I think it would help a lot of people feel more comfortable knowing there are people out here willing to fight for them? I know it would have done baby me a lot of good.

I couldn't agree more. Online arguments aren't activism, especially when the terms are so vague. I think Bat did that on purpose, but maybe I'm a cynic.

It's turbo granny from dandandan? I don't actually watch it myself, but I was helping some kids deal with someone online and they said I reminded them of her so I changed my profile picture.

Bats legit doesn’t care. When an actual “male adjacent” lesbian comes up to them to give them an actual informed opinion, they block and shrivel up. What a twit.

And then I read the whole argument between @skeleton-bat and @thetepes . And then it became more and more clear this wasn’t about protecting lesboys or mspec lesbians anymore, even if that’s what Skeleton-bat still thinks it’s about. Even if that was the intention. This became about protecting their ego. So oops there goes any nuance, there goes any basic empathy.

I hopefully expressed my discomfort as being seen as being excluded by Lesbians. I didn't appreciate how they were using my identity to hurt my friends and others. I agree there is so much nuance in identity and it's not as simple as woman and man, but I feel like Bats was calling more than one group of people men who don't identify as that and also calling people who identify as women men.

I didn't get to really express any of this the first time we had an interaction because they took advantage of my good faith to hurt me. I told them repeatedly I had trauma around engagements like this and that they were making me uncomfortable and they used that against me. I made the mistake of being vulnerable to try to express to someone I thought was a good person they were hurting others.

Like I tried saying to skeleton-bat, their arguments were utter cow shit. Lesbians do exist in the categories they listed (Intersex, nonbinary, definitely butch) but using these categories to INHERENTLY describe maleness within, lesbian or not, is fucking stretching it.

And while a few of the things said (particularly from Sai) were kinda making me uncomfortable, it wasn’t as horrible or queerphobic as bat is making it out to be. From what I know of Sai, she’s an old school gay who barely understands it pronouns, you think she’s gonna understand the nuances of Lesboys? 😅

I’ve also tried saying this- if you’re going to be arguing in simple terms and without nuance, do not fault for others to be replying in simple terms and without nuance. If you say “lesbians can like like men” without specifying you’re talking about a large group of people with various configurations of gender who are both self indentified lesbians but also some flavor of maleness in their indentity, the AVERAGE person is going to understand you as “any women who likes women likes men” (as binary as possible because our societal gender norms are still binary)

Hell, If I hear you talking about men and men adjacent, I’m gonna assume you’re talking about cis and trans men. Men adjacent again is…. Really in the grey zone here.

I care about my identity, yes. I will defend it and sometimes there are things said by cis lesbians or people who aren’t lesbians at all that hurt or are purposely exclusionary. This was not one of them. Britt especially was charitable and inclusionary in her responses. Sai is very forward, anyone within a 2000 mile radius knows this. You particularly I feel shitty for cuz you obviously didn’t want a part of this in the first place.

The lies bat is pushing about you, about how they treated you is complete malarkey. In the long run, lesbian discourse about lesboys and who gets to say what slur doesn’t matter if we’re causing real ass damage over it. Arguing with strangers on the internet isn’t activism, I had to learn that the hard way.

Real bigots won’t care if cis lesbians accept me or if I count as a lesbian or whatever, they’re going to hurt both of us the same. And real bullies will care more for their rhetoric than actual victims.

Thanks for the attempt but honestly you did more harm to the public perception of my identity than anything said by the people against you. I read the ENTIRETY of everything. Your arguments against Britts-galaxy-brain, Thetepes, and purpledemonlilyposting was total shit, even if it was in the right spirit.

Yes, we exist. We don’t need someone who IS NOT A LESBIAN NOR A MASC LESBIAN to fight our own fights. Nor are you even HELPING WHO YOU SAY YOU ARE. No masc lesbian is looking at this and thinking “oh thank you random fuck nugget for weaponizing my already contested identity that people need nuance to understand and using it to abuse several people without the nuance at all”

You proved this wasn’t about lesbianism the moment you started infantilizing and publically humiliating Thetepes