Hello and welcome to this corner of contradictions! I am a proud Greek archeologist and singer who loves mythology and worldbuilding! This page will be dealing with various themes but mostly fanart related to the TV series, comic and manga such as W.I.T.C.H and OCs to them.
Some of my work includes creating music such as:
Ballard's Sad Flute
or singing:
Dilla's Songchord (Avatar AU)
Some of the fanfictions that I do write on this fandom do include the below works, mostly one-shots and analysis on the worldbuilding
Hidden Truth Prequel: The Peak of Madness -complete-
(Diego -OC- slowly loses his mind and agony while waiting for his brother Caleb to show signs of life. Believing he truly is abandoned by everything and everyone, Diego uses his magic to do the unforgivable; take Caleb's form and hold his brother prisoner!)
Uneasy Lies The Head -complete-
(Diego is tormented by his guilt for what he did. And so he dreams and his dreams are nightmarish; mix of memory and dream)
~~~
Aditionally this page is also on occasion dealing with Greek mythos and poetry, particularly the homeric epics (Iliad and Odyssey) and the characters involved at them (with some special emphasis on Odysseus and the people who got related with him)
Some of the stories:
Guilt:
(Odysseus is being guilt-stroke and horrified by the success of his plan to take Troy and by the Greek rage upon it and sinks to a series of thoughts and flashbacks) -complete-
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Survivor's Guilt and Survivor's Duty:
(Odysseus loses his last ship and last comrades at the sea, roams about for 9 days helpless and beaches at Ogygia where even more trauma awaits him) -complete-
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Gone with the Wind:
(Odysseus remains awake for 9 days guarding the sack given to them by Aeolus in order to reach his home faster. However soon he finds out that sleepless nights take a toll on him and the consequences are severe...) -complete-
Part 1
Part 2
The Death of Odysseus:
(The final moments of the king of Ithaca, based on the prophecy of Tiresias in the Odyssey. Odysseus has lived a long life and meets his end while finally meeting with an old friend...and his journey to the Underworld begins...) -complete-
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
(Extra): The Funeral
Ismarus! Ismarus!:
(Odysseus and his men leave from Troy but are devided from the rest of the fleets by a storm. They find themselves in Thrace to the city of Ismarus where Odysseus decides they should raid the land of Cicones) -complete-
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
The Witch's Lair:
(Odysseus's adventure in Aeaea and his bargain with the goddess-sorceress Circe)
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Sweet Dreams:
(Neoptolemus has built his empire, he is expanding his name and yet his guilty conscious won't let him rest. Plundered by horrific nightmares he desperately seeks help from the gods to release him from his torments)
Part 1
The Roar of a Dying Lion:
(Agamemnon returns home after 10 years of war having Cassandra with him. However his most desired homecoming is drenched in blood. At the other edge of the world his brother Menelaus receives the news)
Part 1
Great Sorrow:
(Menelaus is left lost and devastated after Helen left and practically an emotional wreck. He finally picks up his places and goes to his brother, the only person he can rely on) -complete-
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7
The Curse of Beauty:
(Helen travels to Cythera to pay her respects to Dione and Aphrodite where she fatally meets with the Trojan Prince Paris and everything in her life is about to change)
Part 1
~~~
Short Stories
If I never knew you
Odysseus Leaving Ithaca (random Pocahontas inspo)
Odysseus and Helen
Argos (analysis and tiny scene A Tribute to Argos)
Screams and Shadows in the Night (Odysseus and Nausicaa one-shot)
Philoctetes Inspiration (Odysseus and Diomedes one-shot)
Philoctetes Inspiration 2 (Odysseus, Diomedes Philoctetes and Neoptolemus one-shot)
Ruthless Justice (Odysseus and Telemachus one-shot)
The Will to Die The Need to Survive (Odysseus and Calypso one-shot)
Escape from Cyclops Island: Hubris
I Take that Back (Odysseus Menelaus and Diomedes one-shot)
The Why never asked and the Because that never mattered (Helen and Menelaus one-shot)
The Lament for a Life (Achilles and Antilochus short songfic)
It's you; always has been you! (Neoptolemous songfic)
What makes the Heart Beat (Achilles and Antilochus one-shot)
Pomegranate Spell (Patrochilles and Achillochus story)
Guard Dog (a Patroclus and his dogs one-shot)
Kynaeon Asma (Achilles and Antilochus one-shot)
Heart to Heart (Post-Aulis Odysseus Achilles and Menelaus one-shot)
Flower Stained with Blood (Neoptolemus one-shot)
Trauma of the Mind (Odysseus and Diomedes short story)
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THREE_STOOGES_HERCULES_MC208_1961
Cover photo of Curly Joe DeRita, Samson Burke, Larry Fine and Moe Howard. Interior art by Sparky Moore.
https://flic.kr/p/2rZJXdt
Hello! I apologize if this has been asked before (I tried looking for it in your blog but I couldn’t find it) but what is your opinion of the theory of Penelope’s ‘early recognition’ of Odysseus?
Haha no it was never asked like that again and quite frankly I often answer similar asks from time to time so please do not apologize.
No let's see...I believe that you are mentioning the moments in 19th rhapsody where Penelope speaks with Odysseus-beggar and whether she truly recognized him or not or at least suspect him as to why.
Well it is an intriguing question which I doubt it can ever be fully answered because it depends on the perspective someone has on this moment. It is never fully said so at the text for instance it was never said that Penelope recognized Odysseus as her husband but if I may the whole scene in my opinion is not just some random scene but a whole preparation for the actual official recognition
So here goes a small series of thoughts and forgive me if that gets too long.
And by the way thank you so much because for a long time I wanted to write a mini-analysis about this so this is the perfect opportunity!;
The Odyssey Recognition Ritual
In one way we know that the official recognition indeed happens to the final section of Mnesterophony (The Murder of the Suitors) when the two spouses do present each other to one another and offer the final recognition signs for it. However as it happens the one thing that is common in Homer is foreshadowing. In a way a warm-up if you will that sets the reader or listener on the path of the final climax
I think it is not random that the whole conversation happens between Penelope and Odysseus and I think, in a way we see both trying to recognize each other.
Odysseus is specifically instructed or rather guided by Athena not to reveal himself to anyone just yet. In a way that serves both as a plot device but is also Odysseus trying to lift every doubt in his head for any person in his household (part of it or not)
However, if I may, when he sees Penelope and talks to her he seems to be already throwing crumbs at her. Penelope addresses him with respect as a guest of hers. She then asks him the typical questions of Xenia such as who he is and where he comes from. After Odysseus offers a long introduction praising her he then ends up with this;
τῶ ἐμέ νῦν τά μέν ἄλλα μετάλλα σῷ ἐνί οἴκῳ,
μηδ᾽ ἐμόν ἐξερέεινε γένος καί πατρίδα γαῖαν,
μή μοι μᾶλλον θυμόν ἐνιπλήσῃς ὀδυνάων
μνησαμένῳ· μάλα δ᾽ εἰμί πολύστονος· οὐδέ τί με χρή οἴκῳ ἐν ἀλλοτρίῳ γοόωντά τε μυρόμενόν τε
ἧσθαι, ἐπεί κάκιον πενθήμεναι ἄκριτον αἰεί·
μή τίς μοι δμῳῶν νεμεσήσεται, ἠέ σύ γ᾽ αὐτή,
φῇ δέ δακρυπλώειν βεβαρηότα με φρένας οἴνῳ
However now you can ask me for anything else, you are in your own home after all, but do not ask to hear of my lineage or my homeland so that my mind will not be sunken in all the painful memories, for I am truly a man of much torment and it is not appropriate for me to cry and mourn in someone else's home for it is always bad to wail uncontrollably and I am worried your slaves and you yourself will hate me and say that I am all tearful because my mind is heavy with wine
(Translation by me)
Now why would Odysseus say that? Could it be because he is also concerned that he will not be able to make a believable lie to his wife about his supposed homeland? That he doesn't wish to lie to his wife at all? Or is he possibly hinting the true pain of his heart is exactly that; that he IS in his own home, that all the painful memories are so strong to bring him to the verge of tears EXACTLY because he is a stranger in his own home. Even the fact that he characterizes himself with an epithet "of many torments" (πολύστονος) which is more or less descriptive on how he is being called by others during his stay (unknown to them that he is there with them) because most people regard Odysseus as an unlucky and unhappy man for all that has befallen him during his long stay.
He then seems to take it back by speaking on others and Penelope herself will think he got drunk and so he would be wailing in too much pain because his mind is swayed by the wine. However interestingly he also hints that his emotions would be THAT strong. Who else but someone who has so much more to bear would he be hinting such a thing?
I think in a way Penelope gets it or rather she feels something with that declaration that she gets intrigued. She knows her husband. She knows his deep love for his homeland. The way this "stranger" is speaking is very characteristic of what Odysseus himself might as well have said in a situation like this.
Of course it makes no sense to her just yet as to why would Odysseus even be a beggar in his own home? Why not reveal himself? Above all why would a beggar who was already humiliated enough to beg for scraps of food suddenly be too embarrassed to speak of his past to others so that he will not cry? At best it seems a bit fishy. It might as well intrigue her interest as to why and who that person truly is.
So she decides to engage the conversation. For once she is lonely, she was surrounded by so many people that wish to force her to marry as well as that her life is of course so difficult from her longing for her husband and wondering if he truly lives or if he is dead. She needs to speak to someone for sure so her sorrow makes her start talking
But at the same time when you start talking yourself you wanna make the other party to talk too. So Penelope exposes her own pain and sorrow. She starts saying that her beauty and youth have all vanished because of her years of longing for her husband. She opens up about the trick she did to the suitors to stall them. But one should wonder was it JUST her sorrow speaking up or was she throwing some crumb back too?
Penelope essentially tells to that beggar how her first instinct was to stall the upcoming marriage with one of the suitors; a crazy plan no doubt for a man that was considered dead for most and if one needs to be accurate about it, the marriage itself could be beneficial for the kingdom objectively speaking. Why does Penelope entrust such an important piece of information to the first stranger she saw in a while? Sure she says that after all these years she doesn't see differences between beggars and strangers etc as long as she can get some answers and of course one must never ignore that any person can be eager to talk about their troubles to the first person eager to hear but at the same time though she seems to clearly wink that
"I remained loyal. I remained steadfast. I preferred to risk my integrity in the eyes of all these men rather than take back my promise to my husband!"
Now that is interesting thing to say. She seems to speak with pride within her sorrow about an act that most people at her time would consider crazy or de facto bad idea. Everyone expected her to remarry so why would she be so happy to tell that to that stranger?
So after all this long introduction, the emotional exposure of her inner world; her sadness and fears even the worry that even her son wishes her to remarry at that moment and escape that misery of their home and the doubts once and for all and set the ghosts to rest and after she has given a very long and detailed account of her loyalty to her husband, as if she expected the stranger before her (who as I said seemed suspiciously familiar in the way he speaks) to be lulled by her words she ends up her monolog with this;
ἀλλά καί ὥς μοι εἰπέ τεόν γένος, ὁππόθεν ἐσσί· οὐ γάρ ἀπό δρυός ἐσσι παλαιφάτου οὐδ᾽ ἀπό πέτρης
But even so, tell me what is your bloodline and from which place you come from. No one just pops out of an oak or out of a stone
(Translation by me)
Seems interesting to say the very least how she finishes her monolog after also expressing her sorrow for her son Telemachus or how he is now grown up and he can take over his own house and then she literally goes on with "enough with me. Please share your story"
!!
Like it was a rather smooth and "clumsy" connection at the same time! For she did add that after mentioning stories about one's household and all, requesting someone else to do the same but wow what a random transition isn't it? Unless it is more strategic than it seems and it might as well be. Penelope caught the crumbs Odysseus threw at her and she decided to follow them and see where they lead. So she literally insists! She insists upon this stranger to speak. Like "come on don't be shy. Show me your own papers at hand".
Odysseus catches that because he also responds with a hint of his own. His new addressing to her!
ὦ γύναι αἰδοίη Λαερτιάδεω Ὀδυσῆος
Oh, renounced wife of Odysseus son of Laertes
(Translation by me)
Like...let's consider this for one second shall we? Surely it could be as simple as Odysseus just addressing a woman with the traditional way aka as someone's daughter or someone's wife but ironically at first he addressed her as;
ὦ γύναι
Oh, woman (here also; my lady)
(Translation by me)
Like...before he addressed her simply as woman or lady. NOW he addresses her as "wife of Odysseus". Like...you know? The guy that was supposed to be dead or presumed dead anyways? The guy that no one ever saw for at least one decade ever since the ending of the war?
Odysseus of course could be also faking familiarity aka that through the conversation he supposedly became more intimate with his hostess so now he addresses her more directly than the plain term "my lady" but to do that after everything else?
Doesn't it seem like Odysseus is almost indirectly telling her "I am here now"?!
And also because of Penelope insisting and not letting him go that easily with his denial to speak due to fear for the intense emotions of his memories, he is now forced to cook up another story. He has to make sure that his story is believable and that is what he does. Ironically by keeping throwing crumbs like he did before. He now tells his tale of fall by using different locations and different names but overall using the main skeleton of his own painful journey.
But first and foremost; he says how he took care of Odysseus in Crete, how Odysseus turned from Cape Maleas on his way to Troy. That was literally the cape that Odysseus missed because of the storm and couldn't make the turn for Ithaca and had to go down to the land of Lotus Eaters in north Africa. But it is also the place where Odysseus probably had turned from in the past on his way for Troy just as Odysseus says now. Ironically he also mentions that Odysseus was delayed "in his home" because they waited for 13 days before the winds stopped howling and then he could leave (now interestingly this could hint both to the leaving from Troy but also the delay in places like Aulis, if we assume that Homer was hinting that) either way both of these seem to be used as crumbs of the actual story that Odysseus went through
As expected, Penelope took the bait and threw one of her own. She tries to test if the man is telling the truth or not so she asks him to have some sort of proof especially how Odysseus seems to go on and on with his story that seems elaborate enough so Penelope must make sure that he is telling the truth but also consequently she still needs to know.
So what does Odysseus do? He describes his clothes that she had folded in for him plus his herald, Eurybates!
Honestly that is a big give away and that is not only because of the obvious details that he gives about the outfit even if that was supposed to be 20 years ago but please come to consider this possibility;
Odysseus describes others because seriously who truly is familiar to such extent with their own reflection?
We speak on the bronze age now. The greatest idea people had on mirrors was a polished piece of bronze, water etc. We do not have yet clear mirrors from glass that can give you absolutely detailed image of someone's look. Odysseus deliberately chose to describe another person (someone that seemingly shared several similarities with Odysseus himself) and an outfit. He is not just randomly picking stuff. For once he picks the things he truly has seen with his own two eyes whilst his reflection and detailed appearance would be done as descriptions of what others saw and that would betray him because he would have to parrot other people's words and some might not have been the things Penelope remembered or knew (what other people describe might not be what Penelope herself described when she saw him plus if he parroted Penelope's words she would know he is lying)
On the other hand he doesn't wanna stop his own game of recognition with her so by describing a detailed outfit that Penelope herself had made and folded for him, he is again hinting her that he is there! That he is looking at her right there and then. Without being obvious though. He doesn't wanna betray his secret but at the same time he wants to give hope to Penelope who was crying before. At the same time he is still testing her like she tested him
Because when Penelope asked for proof she wanted to make sure that he wasn't lying that he saw her husband but at the same time if something was nagging inside her about that man, she wanted to make sure and so she set a trap in one way on whether or not he would trip on his words
Odysseus dodged her trap by avoiding describing himself but he described an outfit instead. Giving away both the essence of his identity and verifying his story without telling who he is.
He also wishes to distract Penelope from inquiring further from him in regards to the identity of Odysseus he supposedly met so that he will not have to make up more stuff to keep dodging her questions.
This has a small effect for one can say it distracts Penelope a bit and she is delighted that this man truly saw her husband and forgot that Odysseus dodged the subject by not making a full description of how Odysseus looked like when he supposedly met him. She is delighted but also sad so now Odysseus decides to drop another trap on top of the one she set on him. He more or less knows that she is totally loyal as she says (no rather he is almost 100% sure at that stage) but he wants to be certain of everything and at the same time prepare the ground. If Penelope truly wants him back and she truly was enduring for him all these years then he should do that to confirm.
And so he tells her how he supposedly heard from the land of the Thesprotians that Odysseus is alive. That he lost all his men but that he is coming back to reclaim his house. Now Odysseus enters the realms of truth. That yes he IS alive and yes he DID come to claim his throne but he is not there yet.
In my head the revelation has two possible outcomes; console Penelope if she is true, or cause her panic if she lied. And Penelope responds!
αἲ γάρ τοῦτο, ξεῖνε, ἔπος τετελεσμένον εἴη· τῷ κε τάχα γνοίης φιλότητά τε πολλά τε δῶρα ἐξ ἐμεῦ, ὡς ἄν τίς σε συναντόμενος μακαρίζοι. ἀλλά μοι ὧδ᾽ ἀνά θυμόν ὀΐεται, ὡς ἔσεταί περ· οὔτ᾽ Ὀδυσεύς ἔτι οἶκον ἐλεύσεται, οὔτε σύ πομπῆς τεύξῃ, ἐπεί οὐ τοῖοι σημάντορές εἰσ᾽ ἐνί οἴκῳ οἷος Ὀδυσσεύς ἔσκε μετ᾽ ἀνδράσιν, εἴ ποτ᾽ ἔην γε, ξείνους αἰδοίους ἀποπεμπέμεν ἠδέ δέχεσθαι.
If only, stranger, what you said comes true. If yes, then you would have all my love and you would receive many gifts of such kind that anyone that might encounter you might deem you so lucky. However my heart tells me otherwise; neither will Odysseus return nor will you be sent away properly because in this house there are no longer hosts like Odysseus who knew how to both accept and see guests off as it is appropriate
(Translation by me)
Essentially Penelope does not allow herself to hope. Maybe is also the reason why in the final recognition scene after she falls in the arms of her husband she excuses herself for being so cautious because she has in mind that some deity or other wishes to play with her and deceive her so that she will be unfaithful. She now seems to double-think that even if she did suspect something, it is too good to be true. That all this game of breadcrumbs and constant hints was either in her head because of her expectations or someone wishes to play a nasty game with her.
She doesn't want to dismiss this man she has before her now because one part of hers tells her that she can trust him but the other part of hers seems to be contradicting that especially with all the crumbs that he has sent her or the hints she sent and got answered. So she calls Euryclea to wash his feet
Interesting though isn't it? Why Euryclea? Why not her other maids? Why specifically the arguably only woman that theoretically knows her husband better than what she does because she literally breastfed him as a baby?
Did she expect to extract more answers that maybe only Euryclea would give her? Did she think that bring another person who knew her husband so intimately might as well double-confirm that nagging feeling inside her that there was something familiar with that stranger?
If you think about it that description she gives of Euryclea is not a coincidence in my mind;
ἔστι δέ μοι γρηῢς πυκινὰ φρεσὶ μήδε᾽ ἔχουσα,
ἣ κεῖνον δύστηνον ἐῢ τρέφεν ἠδ᾽ ἀτίταλλε
δεξαμένη χείρεσσ᾽, ὅτε μιν πρῶτον τέκε μήτηρ,
ἥ σε πόδας νίψει, ὀλιγηπελέουσά περ ἔμπης
I have here one old woman who is really smart and wise in council
someone that nursed and raised that poor man
accepting him in her arms right after his mother gave birth to him
this woman will wash your feet, even if she has little strength left
(Translation by me)
Man did Odysseus break a sweat now or what? Hahaha
I am sure he did because even if he did hope that he managed to distract Penelope (and that was a big if already), he knew there was little to no chance he would do that to Euryclea, the woman that was literally his second mother. The motherly instinct was strong with her even if she didn't birth him herself. He knew then that maybe just maybe, Penelope was on his tail or that her intuition was telling her so even if she herself was not totally there yet. I am almost sure that this was a test and both Penelope and Odysseus knew it.
This is further supported by the fact that Penelope once more comments on the way Odysseus/beggar speaks and how knowledgeable or lordly he appears so what does she do? She sends him a woman that raised a lord. What is more she states that Euryclea is old and weak and feeble and yet she sends her anyways! That is not a coincidence. Not to mention the emphasis on how long she knew Odysseus (aka literally his whole life!)
And man he was right to be worried! At first Euryclea seems to think the reason the old her is sent to Odysseus is because the other servants of Penelope are too high and mighty to touch him and that they should be ashamed for it and she sympathizes with him and how he fell from grace and how nobody who honors the gods deserves it and then she drops the bomb! First she says how she is willing to do it for him and she doesn't do it just because Penelope ordered her but then she says what Odysseus feared would happen;
ἀλλ᾽ ἄγε νῦν ξυνίει ἔπος, ὅττι κεν εἴπω· πολλοί δή ξεῖνοι ταλαπείριοι ἐνθάδ᾽ ἵκοντο, ἀλλ᾽ οὔ πώ τινά φημι ἐοικότα ὧδε ἰδέσθαι ὡς σύ δέμας φωνήν τε πόδας τ᾽ Ὀδυσῆϊ ἔοικας.
But listen now to my words, stranger, and what I have to say; many strangers beaten by fate had come to this house but no one ever looked so much like Odysseus in his voice, his form or even his feet like you do!
(Translation by me)
Mind you Euryclea has not yet seen his scar! She barely knelt down before him and she already noticed his body type, his feet shape and heard his voice even if he is transformed! She literally is a mother recognizing her child right there! I know Odysseus must have had a mini-heart attack then because he rushed to cover this by saying;
ὦ γρηῦ, οὕτω φασίν ὅσοι ἴδον ὀφθαλμοῖσιν ἡμέας ἀμφοτέρους, μάλα εἰκέλω ἀλλήλοιϊν ἔμμεναι, ὡς σύ περ αὐτή ἐπιφρονέουσ᾽ ἀγορεύεις.
Old woman, indeed others have said that too that laid eyes upon us that we are indeed very much similar like you have just now confessed yourself
(Translation by me)
Odysseus never before during his fake story with Penelope did he mention that he was "similar to Odysseus" and if I may say it was a rather clumsy cover up compared to the skillful speech he had given to Penelope before. Obviously he had to avoid that excuse because the last thing he wanted was Penelope to focus on him and notice the similarities (we have also to say again that Odysseus hardly could be aware of his looks at that stage. He doesn't know how much Athena changed him and whether he looks similar to his normal self but aged up or not.)
The only thing he can tell is that his scars and general essence of physique are left untouched but indeed he couldn't fully tell how much he changed or not so not only did he want Penelope to notice any similarities that might still be there but also he had no way of knowing that his current appearance bore similarities to his real form so by exposing some wrong piece of information would make his entire story collapse.
And Penelope seemed to suspect or question rather than realizing
But Euryclea now straight out spells it out that he looks similar! She even confirms that to the moment after she touched his scar
ἦ μάλ᾽ Ὀδυσσεύς ἐσσι, φίλον τέκος· οὐδέ σ᾽ ἐγώ γε πρίν ἔγνων, πρίν πάντα ἄνακτ᾽ ἐμόν ἀμφαφάασθαι.
Oh gods, it is you, Odysseus, my beloved child! I knew it was you from the very beginning! Even before I touched my king!
(Translation by me)
Of course that confirmation was not even needed at that stage but it simply spells out how much aware Euryclea was from the very beginning! And Odysseus realized that.
That means that he must cover that up now otherwise he would be betrayed. So he randomly makes that up to cover any sort of questions but as I said seems rather fast or clumsy and rather last minute excuse if you ask me. And maybe Odysseus knew it and that is why he was on guard and reacted fast when Euryclea was ready to yelp he grabbed her and gagged her immediately because he knew that game was over with Euryclea and all he could do was to make sure she wouldn't speak and even had to threaten her for it in his own panic essentially as well as his distrust of everyone at that specific moment.
But that also means that he also dodged a potential "trap" that Penelope sent him because now he made Euryclea realize beyond any doubt that absolutely under no circumstances was she allowed to talk and inform Penelope so in a way he was safe.
The last stage was again that Odysseus tried to once more reassure Penelope by essentially interpreting her dream that Odysseus were to return and that he essentially would clear this place. Penelope also knows she cannot stall so she also drops her final bomb; the impossible challenge that only Odysseus was known to have fulfilled.
Conclusions
Sorry for the very long reply and I hope you are still with me. Now how do I feel about thinking Penelope recognized Odysseus. I don't think she truly truly did but all her braincells could recognize a pattern. It was enough to cause her more than just suspicion but she was not fully sure yet.
Maybe part of her as she said later was thinking it was some god or goddess or something that was playing tricks with her. Or maybe that was her fear that prevented her from completely accepting what her instincts and intuition were telling her was right all along
But I think Odysseus made enough points to make sure that Penelope suspected and Penelope threw enough hints back to de facto confirm that she did suspect at least
So yeah I wouldn't say she fully recognized him because of her overthinking and all but she definitely began suspecting from the very beginning Odysseus began to speak and throwing her hints.
I am very proud of this hehe so I am reblogging it again till it gets seen hehehe ;P Also once again thank you @tismemaia for the chance to answer this!
Family tree of Greek Mythology are confusing.... Especially when they share a name, cause Fym there's two Ericthonius!? (Athenian and Trojan), and Autolycus (The thief and son of Deimachus)...! Not to mention the other names...
Because Greek myth unlike many, has the quite realistic element of people sharing the same name. Because it happens so frequently in real life that I am surprised that more myths do not include it to be honest.
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How hera relationship with eurymedon and their son?
Are we talking about this alleged scholion by Eustathius on Iliad? Or here:
Ἥραν, τρεφομένην παρὰ τοῖς γονεῦσιν,
εἷς ἢ γιγάλων, Εὐρυμέδων, βιασάμενος,
ἔγκυον ἐποίησεν· ἡ δὲ Προμηθέα ἐγέννησε.
Ζοὺς δὲ, ΰτερον γήμας τὴν ἀδελφὴν, κὶ γιὰς τὰ γενόμενα,
τὸν μὲν Εὐρυμέδοντα κατεταρτάρωσε,
τὸν δὲ Προμηθέα, προφάσει πυρός, δισμοῖς ἀνηρτησιν.
Ἡ ἱσορία παρ' Εὐφορίωνι.
While Hera was living with her parents,
one of the giants, Eurymedon, raped her
left her pregnant and she gave birth to Promytheus.
Zeus, when he later married his sister and learnt what happened
he threw Eurymedon to Tartarus
while Prometheus he bound him up, using the fire as excuse
This is the story according to Euphorius
(Translation by me)
So it is a bit unclear by the way which Euphorius this is. At least I am not sure. For he is a son of Aeschylus for instance or some poets that lived later in Alexnandrine times and all so I am not sure which is this Euphorius we are talking about.
Anyways it seems more of an unorthodox origin story of Prometheus given that his parentage is more or less established by the vast majority of sources
But anyways if we suppose that Prometheus came indeed this way (and by the way there is no word here for the brother Epimytheus either) then I doubt she would want anything to do with either of them. Not to mention she would have another reason to be furious at Heracles at if he set Prometheus free. So taking this account into consideration I do not think she would want anything to do with either of them.
Alright I remember still my one and only post that reached over 2000 notes and I am still so happy to see the fantastic comments that people have left to it!
I also remember some random ideas discussed with people like @wolfythewitch at the comments about "what if Odysseus and Penelope were just courting for 10 years" and honestly...I am seriously considering something! You see someone contemporary to Homer, Hesiod seems to have a small idea for the ideal marriage;
When the time comes bring a woman to your house when you are not far off thirty years of age, above or below. And this is the right time for marriage; let your wife mature from puberty four years and marry her the fifth
(Translation by me)
So we know that Odysseus arranged the whole marriage thing while he was asking the hand of Helen in marriage with Tyndareus hence the oath. We also know from stories like Pausanias when he tried to leave Icarius tried to stop them from leaving hence Odysseus asking Penelope to choose marrying him or stay with her father, to which Penelope covered her face with her veil to indicate she is to marry Odysseus.
So what if that is the system followed? What if Odysseus got home Penelope that was around 13-14 years of age and then waited for 5 years till Penelope reached the right age to marry like around 17-18 years old? That would make her in her 30s in the Odyssey which could explain the urgency to remarry. I also imagined Odysseus to be in his late 20s when a suitor of Helen's so if he was around 28-29 and Penelope was around 14 when they met, taken to Ithaca and then married around 4-5 years later that would leave 5 years extra where they are childless Telemachus being born later and either when Telemachus is a few months old or if he is tops one year old almost then Odysseus leaves
Somehow that seems to help more with the association that Penelope was a young bride when left if they are not even 5 years properly married.
Food for thought.
You know at this point I am really tempted to make a masterpost of everyone that has me blocked (and who even praised me heavily the past years). Kinda like Odysseus or Ea-Nasir with the bad reviews. You get me?
Mysia was mostly in later sources in the first place (yes the Mysians are mentioned in the Iliad and on of course). I think in sources like Philostratus Heroica (unless I am mistaken) was mentioned that the Greeks had sent the embassy to Troy before any actual conflict started
I believe it was when the writer was commenting on the aspect of the supposed curse of the first person to lay a foot on the soil of Troy would die. Then the comment was that the curse was basically bullshit because Odysseus and Menelaus had been to Troy first before it all began when they went to negotiate the terms of Helen's return (although essentially they mentioned the argument was just for the sakes of arguing especially with Odysseus)
Now if you ask me that makes more and more sense that the embassy of Troy actually happened before the actual attacks began yet alone after the Aulis incident (if we also follow sources like Apollodorous we have two gatherings of the army) because well it makes so much more sense sometimes to think the Atreides would be willing to negotiate before the high price was paid. (Plus if the embassy happened after Mysia and after the Aulis then man after such a terrible sacrifice the Greeks and Agamemnon in particular were open to negotiations without conflict? Respect my man!)
But even if we say that the embassy to Troy happened after the Mysia and Aulis incidents or in-between then we still get an attempt for peaceful resolution either for purely strategic reasons (aka Troy is much stronger stronghold than Mysia) or out of other reasons (aka they believe the bloodshed was enough already for both sides given the damages done or even getting the prophecy of the 10 year war after the Mysia incident)
Either way the one is not negating the other. Not to mention that in future sources like Dares the Phrygian the Trojans planned to start an attack first by sending their new fleet with Paris as a leader to Greece all quietly and without warning and their plans were ruined only because Paris grabbed Helen at Cythera and ran back
So that is another elephant to address in another room
The Mysia incident is not just from later sources like Priam's plan in Dares, it is found in the Epic Cycle.
Proclus' Chrestomathia: After this, they put out to sea, and reach Teuthrania and sack it, taking it for Ilium. Telephus comes out to the rescue and kills Thersander and son of Polyneices, and is himself wounded by Achilles.
The two sides also clash on the beach before the embassy is sent. Though it is because of the Trojans trying to prevent their landing, it would be understandable after seeing a whole war fleet turn up on their shores - a fleet that had just sacked their neighbouring Mysia.
Proclus' Chrestomathia: Then the Greeks tried to land at Ilium, but the Trojans prevent them, and Protesilaus is killed by Hector. Achilles then kills Cycnus, the son of Poseidon, and drives the Trojans back. The Greeks take up their dead and send envoys to the Trojans demanding the surrender of Helen and the treasure with her. The Trojans refusing, they first assault the city, and then go out and lay waste the country and cities round about.
The Cypria also has Agamemnon and Menelaus preparing for war before sending an embassy.
Proclus' Chrestomathia: Iris next informs Menelaus of what has happened at his home. Menelaus returns and plans an expedition against Ilium with his brother, and then goes on to Nestor.
See also Apollodorus:
Apollodorus' Library: When Menelaos found out about the abduction, he went to Agamemnon in Mycenae and asked him to gather an expedition against Troy and mobilize Hellas. Agamemnon sent a herald to each of the kings and reminded them of the oaths they had sworn and advised each to make secure arrangements for his own wife, telling them that the contempt shown to Hellas was shared equally. Many were eager to go to war; they also went to Odysseus on Ithaca.
Apollodorus' ordering of events has the embassy after Mysia (and Iphigenia) too. The incident here is contingent on the Achaeans not knowing how to get to Troy.
Apollodorus' Library: They prepared to sail to Troy. Agamemnon himself was commander of the whole army, but Achilles was the naval commander even though he happened to be fifteen years old. Not knowing how to sail to Troy, they landed in Mysia and plundered this land in the belief that it was Troy.
The intent of the post was not about who's more morally righteous (an inane question), just a meme I made after seeing so many posts ignoring Mysia
edit.
Additionally, Iphigenia's sacrifice in the Cypria happens before the embassy, when they do not know how to sail to Troy and need Telephus' guidance! Proclus makes no mention of them sending ambassadors until after they've clashed with the Trojans on the shores, after Iphigenia, after Mysia
Proclus' Chrestomathia: As they put out from Mysia a storm comes on them and scatters them, and Achilles first puts in at Scyros and married Deidameia, the daughter of Lycomedes, and then heals Telephus, who had been led by an oracle to go to Argos, so that he might be their guide on the voyage to Ilium. When the expedition had mustered a second time at Aulis, Agamemnon, while at the chase, shot a stag and boasted that he surpassed even Artemis. At this the goddess was so angry that she sent stormy winds and prevented them from sailing. Calchas then told them of the anger of the goddess and bade them sacrifice Iphigeneia to Artemis.
That's what I mean "later" as in post-homeric or even post-classical sources like Apollodorous. I mean in the essence of the peaceful solution as sought oftentimes referring to the Iliad itself
We do have also some winks to that from classical era from art. For example the vase painting of Telephus holding Orestes. When I say "later sources" I do not mean like 20th century. Apollodorous and Proclus are some of the examples that we know on the Mysia incident
I believe you misunderstood. I never said they hadn't gathered the army for war. On the contrary. No one goes for negotiations that would determine whether or not they would have war without having the army ready or already being prepared. The preparation of the fleet was actually their negotiating paper. Aka "do this negotiation with us otherwise we have enough firepower to make you weep". The preparation of the fleet took a long time on its own. They were already prepared or getting ready and while they were on that they started negotiating. They were already being prepared (hence also the commentary on sources like Heroica)
What I said was that some sources can be read that the embassy was sent before any actual attack actually happened. It is not necessarily the case. Of course not but essentially the embassy was sent before the official declaration of war. Now whether someone adds the Mysia incident before or after that is up for the interpretation of the sources to show that.
And as you said in the case of the first attack at Troy where we getting involved with Protesilaus we talk about a counter attack essentially. Then we have even the mentions that the taking of Mysia made the ships start a second gathering of the fleet the last one where Iphigenia gets sacrificed.
And my reblog is not about that either. I never said that it has to do with morality (apart from Agamemnon in particular) I am only saying that Mysia is not necessarily something that shows that Greeks didn't indeed try the peaceful solution as I said in later sources it is implied that Greeks were already ambassadors in Troy long before the first attack that we see where Protesilaus was killed
Dictys Cretensis, Trojan War Chronicles
They basically mention how the embassy was sent right after the preparations happened in fact this account even says that Paris was not even in Troy just yet and that he was out sacking cities around and that Helen was not in Troy yet. Menelaus left with threats for war.
In fact we then have the full gathering and THEN they reach Mysia because of wrong winds which they proceed to take. Also from Philostratus Heroica
So there are even these later accounts in which Mysia is mentioned but as way after the embassy to Troy. If anything Philostratus doesn't even give the Greeks the element of doubt that they had wrong winds. He essentially says that "they have already been there! How could they miss Troy?"
Hence my comment. That there is the explanation that Mysia incident happens way after the embassy too. It has not to do with Morality so much (apart from my comment on Agamemnon) as on the fact that again Mysia might appear as forgotten but that there are sources that mention it after the embassy to Troy too. And the sources you also mentioned about the attacks from the beach. Of course we have stories surrounding the war not just in actions towards Mysia but also Tenedos and the like. I am just saying that the Mysia incident can in fact be seen as post-embassy too.
Mysia was mostly in later sources in the first place (yes the Mysians are mentioned in the Iliad and on of course). I think in sources like Philostratus Heroica (unless I am mistaken) was mentioned that the Greeks had sent the embassy to Troy before any actual conflict started
I believe it was when the writer was commenting on the aspect of the supposed curse of the first person to lay a foot on the soil of Troy would die. Then the comment was that the curse was basically bullshit because Odysseus and Menelaus had been to Troy first before it all began when they went to negotiate the terms of Helen's return (although essentially they mentioned the argument was just for the sakes of arguing especially with Odysseus)
Now if you ask me that makes more and more sense that the embassy of Troy actually happened before the actual attacks began yet alone after the Aulis incident (if we also follow sources like Apollodorous we have two gatherings of the army) because well it makes so much more sense sometimes to think the Atreides would be willing to negotiate before the high price was paid. (Plus if the embassy happened after Mysia and after the Aulis then man after such a terrible sacrifice the Greeks and Agamemnon in particular were open to negotiations without conflict? Respect my man!)
But even if we say that the embassy to Troy happened after the Mysia and Aulis incidents or in-between then we still get an attempt for peaceful resolution either for purely strategic reasons (aka Troy is much stronger stronghold than Mysia) or out of other reasons (aka they believe the bloodshed was enough already for both sides given the damages done or even getting the prophecy of the 10 year war after the Mysia incident)
Either way the one is not negating the other. Not to mention that in future sources like Dares the Phrygian the Trojans planned to start an attack first by sending their new fleet with Paris as a leader to Greece all quietly and without warning and their plans were ruined only because Paris grabbed Helen at Cythera and ran back
So that is another elephant to address in another room
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Were Achilles and Patroclus cousins in any sources, or was this idea completely invented by Troy (2004)?
Oh my this question always coming in circles, Anon. And I have mentioned it in my posts before but that's a fair question so here goes;
Not just in "any sources". In almost every shape and form based on their lore. Achilles and Patroclus are cousins. More specifically first cousins once removed. That is because they have a common ancestor, the Nymph named Aegina who is simultaneously Patroclus's grandmother and Achilles's great-grandmother.
That makes Patroclus and Peleus first cousins. Hence also Achilles being Patroclus's first cousin once removed.
Here I made a small family tree so you can see it better
And things get even more interesting because Patroclus has many women that are candidates as his mother. One of them is a woman by the name Polymele or Philomela. This woman is another daughter of Peleus by another woman.
That makes then Achilles simultaneously both Patroclus's cousin once removed and his uncle oh and Ajax the Greater is also Achilles's first cousin and Patroclus's cousin once removed yup try to solve that riddle now
So without further ado the answer is yes. Achilles and Patroclus are definitely cousins (first cousins once removed) and in one or two sources they are also uncle and nephew.
Hehe enjoy some good headache dear Anon because all heroes are one way or another related, usually tracing from some god like Zeus or Poseidon etc
I remember reading in topos about, "Ericthonius, Son of Vulcan and Minerva whom Homer called Erectheus"
No they are two different names to my knowledge but I will keep looking.
Anyways Erichthonius technically is the son of Hephaestus (Vulkan) and Gaea because in some stories Hephaestus tried to rape Athena but eventually Athena repelled him and wiped his seed off her leg with some wool and threw it away and the wool fell on earth and fertilized her and layer Ericthonius came off the earth however there are images that show Athena being a mother figure to him because she technically adopts him and teaches him. Erichthonius becomes the first king of Athens. It was the legend that the Atheneans used to say that they were born in that area and they did not migrate from somewhere else.
Erectheus is I believe the descendant (geandson) of Erichthonius also a king of Athens who continued the line.
Alexander had not drunk wine for several days. That was the strangest thing to happen at court in recent years—ordinarily, he drank often. He lay on his couch, covered up to his chin, and trembled—finely, ceaselessly, so that his teeth chattered and his fingers clutched at the silk.
"Bring wine," he ordered hoarsely. The voice was unfamiliar, as if it belonged to someone else. "Cold. A lot of it."
The physician brought a cup. Alexander seized it with both hands, but his fingers would not obey—the cup fell with a clatter to the floor, the wine spreading across the purple fabric like a dark stain, like blood.
"You're shaking," said Ptolemy, standing in the doorway. "You never shook."
"I'm cold! Cold!" Alexander snapped back. "I'm freezing, like... like..."
He did not finish. His teeth clenched again and began to chatter, no matter how he tried to stifle the sound. His body arched, and he groaned—low, drawn-out, like a wounded beast.
Ptolemy approached. Touched his forehead. Drew back.
"He's burning," he told the physician. "Do something!"
The physician spread his hands. He had the look of a man who already knew the sentence.
"The king has drunk too much," he said quietly. "Days and nights. Months. His body cannot cope with the wine. And now on top of that, fever. I cannot..."
"You can," Ptolemy cut in. "You can do anything! Or I'll cut off your head and put a man in your place who can."
He was not joking. The physician paled but said nothing.
Alexander, meanwhile, was staring at the ceiling and whispering:
"Hephaestion... are you here? I can smell... the scent... like in Mieza after rain... Cypresses... Did you bring water?"
No one answered. Ptolemy lowered his head and stepped out into the corridor, so as not to hear the sick man's ravings.
On the second day, the delirium worsened. Alexander thrashed on his couch.
By morning, Alexander had stopped recognizing faces. He looked at Perdiccas and called him Philip—his father's name. He looked at the torches and said the stars had descended too low, that the fresco on the wall was the Moon.
"I'm sailing," he said, lying on his back and moving his arms as if rowing. "The water is warm. Red. Like wine. I'm sailing, and you... you're standing on the shore and laughing. Why are you laughing? I'm drowning, Hephaestion!"
He screamed—so loudly that the guards outside started. His body arched, his spine lifting off the couch, his mouth opening in a silent cry. Then he fell back, spent, and grew still.
"Water," he whispered. "Cold water. The kind from the stream. Remember? We sat by the water, and you said... you said I was too loud. That I scared away the fish. And I laughed so hard... Loud..."
He smiled into the darkness, then his face twisted in a grimace of pain. His hand jerked, reaching for someone else's palm. Found only air. Clenched.
"Don't go..." he whispered. "Don't go, I beg you! I don't want to be alone!"
The physician approached, put a spoonful of brew into his mouth. Alexander spat it out and coughed. Turned his head toward the wall and said no more.
Only once, already toward midnight, he said distinctly, clearly, as in his youth:
"You were right. About everything."
And fell silent.
On the third day, he lay motionless. His chest rose faintly with each breath, his eyelashes fluttered. His whisper drifted through the room.
Perdiccas merely watched and listened to Alexander's voice, his head bowed. When the whisper ceased, he walked out, leaving the cold body on the couch.
Outside, the sun blazed down, the heat relentless. The city hummed with noise.
Okay I am sad at how little attention this got because honestly it is small and yet so rich and so lively that honestly I am surprised.
First of all it is a realistic depiction of someone deadly ill. We know so little on Alexander and his death but seemingly he died from fever. Now there were many theories of that (even poisoning) but probably as you brilliantly stated it was some illness, combined with years of abuse of his body and probably alcohol over-consumption if we believe some sources mentioning that. Honestly I think it is a combination of illness but also pressure on a young man's body from years and years of self-abuse (physical and mental) in combination with increasingly bad habits. Whether the men had some role to play to it such as a conspiracy or poisoning I am not sure if it played the final role to his passing.
For starters is great to show the tremors that come from the typhoid fever (body feeling cold) but also seemingly combined with some withdrawal symptoms or how someone who is not in their right mind would be mumbling things or demanding things but not able to move.
Also the fact that he is too sick to drink as he usually does shows indeed where his health is at and that is impactful way enough to start a story!
Also Ptolemy one of his closest friends and companions and generals be by his side at his worst seems really realistically placed.
Also yeah of course you would have him speak to Hephaestion. Honestly I think some of his lost companions along the way either by his hand or by indirect reasons, would have been his biggest regrets that would come to the surface during his darkest hours before the end. Not the conquest that was cut in half, not the loss of his health itself but the people who got lost along the way and the losses he suffered.
I will be honest with you I would expect to see him speak also to his loyal horse Voukephalas or his loyal dog Peritas which both cost so much to him when he lost them.
💬 0 🔁 0 ❤️ 24 · Alexander and Hephestion this Alexander and Bagoas that but never Alexander and Peritas. Never Alexander and Boukephalas..
I think some of my favorite parts of this are the delirious words of Alexander because on one hand they make no sense because they have no cohesion but they make a lot of sense if combined with his life and conquest but also on his immediate and direct needs that surface while he is sick.
Also it is interesting how you avoid the famous last words "to the strongest" when he mentioned his kingdom (unless you imagine them being said a little before his worsening). Of course historically there is a lot of debate on whether he actually said these words or if these are more to the sphere of legend than history. Either way it is always touching to see people add the last moments of clarity to the dying person's story because man it is creepily realistic how many people have that last moment where they are completely clear after their terrible sickness or ordeal and you know it is their final moment
I also love it how you leave it totally unclear as to what he says as in who was right and about what? Was it his teacher Aristotle that tried to teach him? Was it Hephaestion that tried to warn him? Was it his father? Hard to tell and honestly all seem impactful to me.
Anyways I saw you have no shares and as a fellow writer I am sad because this deserves to be seen so yeah thank you for taking your time to write this and share!
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Yeah creating Family Trees for heroes can be addictive! Soooo my small family tree that I wanted to show the family relations between Achilles and Patroclus
Turned out to be the full on family history till the children of Neoptolemus hahahaha
Were Achilles and Patroclus cousins in any sources, or was this idea completely invented by Troy (2004)?
Oh my this question always coming in circles, Anon. And I have mentioned it in my posts before but that's a fair question so here goes;
Not just in "any sources". In almost every shape and form based on their lore. Achilles and Patroclus are cousins. More specifically first cousins once removed. That is because they have a common ancestor, the Nymph named Aegina who is simultaneously Patroclus's grandmother and Achilles's great-grandmother.
That makes Patroclus and Peleus first cousins. Hence also Achilles being Patroclus's first cousin once removed.
Here I made a small family tree so you can see it better
And things get even more interesting because Patroclus has many women that are candidates as his mother. One of them is a woman by the name Polymele or Philomela. This woman is another daughter of Peleus by another woman.
That makes then Achilles simultaneously both Patroclus's cousin once removed and his uncle oh and Ajax the Greater is also Achilles's first cousin and Patroclus's cousin once removed yup try to solve that riddle now
So without further ado the answer is yes. Achilles and Patroclus are definitely cousins (first cousins once removed) and in one or two sources they are also uncle and nephew.
Hehe enjoy some good headache dear Anon because all heroes are one way or another related, usually tracing from some god like Zeus or Poseidon etc