Devastated Disciple

"But if it was a woman offering herself sexually to a man who had always abused her showing the slightest bit of kindness it would be recognized as the hypersexual and self destructive behavior that it is." &

"The fact he came on to shen yuan sexually after only a moment of kindness makes me think he views his ability to give pleasure as the only thing he can give someone."

I'm gonna be thinking about this for months. You explained it so good and I'd love to hear more on what you have to say on this topic (if you want!! No pressure)

thank you sm! ^_^ tbh I was actually nervous to post this because I didn’t know how it would be received…I don’t think I have heard anyone talk about bingge and his fundamentally fucked up relationship to sex and women before. It’s a topic I’ve given a lot of thought to so I’m happy to say more!

first I would like to say, even our bingmei knows he’s attractive.

Luo Binghe honestly wasn't a narcissist, he'd just always been very self-aware of how he looked to others. He didn't gleefully revel in his appearance, but he also wouldn't downplay it for the sake of false humility. (Book 1)

at the immortal alliance conference, girls gossip about him and compare his attractiveness against Gongxi Yao’s. Even bingmei often has gaggles of girls interested in him. At this time, Luo Binghe is 15. The age of the girls isnt mentioned but we know binghe has been hearing people talk about his good looks since he was at least 15, and likely older.

Shen qingqiu describes the scene where Luo Bingge loses his virginity as thus:

The girl thought, “Since I’m about to die, I must leave behind some memories to ensure that my life won’t have been in vain. I don’t have many days left, after all, so I won’t suppress my feelings anymore.”

Then, using her weak and fragile body, she pushed Luo Binghe down.

Luo Binghe put up a brief show of resistance before telling himself “She did all for my sake. I don’t have the heart to reject her final wish.” He yielded, still half-reluctant, and went along with it… (Book 1)

he was coerced into sex by circumstance and it’s even said she pushed him down and he resisted. He “went along with it” and “yielded”. All very passive language to describe his behavior during sex. Her feelings for him are placed directly over his autonomy and consent. Now knowing the type of novel PIDW is, I would very sincerely doubt Binghe being a victim of constant violation and that being brushed aside was intentional and meant to make a point or appeal to readers into forced to penetrate rape. It is a side effect of the world he is in that he will constantly be a victim of sexual assault. It’s also very notable that his first time having sex he is hesitant but is later described to be an insatiable sexual force initiating and demanding sex. To me this sounds like it is meant to say he progressed from a shyness around sex to a drive for it, which would be somewhat normal, if again, the time we see him hesitant around sex is directly rape. Meaning it’s more likely that he became sexually assertive after a long time of being unable to resist sexual situations.

now I won’t deny that obviously, Bingge is a rapist himself. He has forced himself onto countless women the way Qin Wanyue forced herself onto him. But I would also like to point out that Bingge resisting Qin Wanyue’s advances was painted as a half hearted struggle he eventually gave into. It would not be outlandish at all to say that perhaps he saw women resisting him as similar and thus ignored their consent because his was never respected and he considered it normal.

now onto my thoughts from the bingge vs Bingmei extra, I have many! But I would like to preface by bringing back up my original comparison of “if Bingge was a woman sexually offering herself to shen qingqiu”. I thought perhaps people would point out how it’s different because Luo Bingge forced himself onto Shen Qingqiu, but perusing the text, that’s not exactly true. He initiated and Shen Qingqiu (thinking it was bingmei) reciprocated. But it WAS very much coming onto him. It just wasn’t in a sexually submissive way, which is why it’s not recognized as behavior that could indicate a very unhealthy relationship to sex. Rather it’s seen as sexual agression.

Shen Qingqiu's appearance was stellar: his shoulders were neither too broad nor too bulky, while his waist was thin and his legs long.

Enveloped in Qing Jing Peak's many-layered teal uniform, he was immaculate and slender, with a great deal of graceful beauty. Yes... It was his graceful beauty. Shen Qingqiu pushed the door shut behind him. He had yet to get within five steps of Luo Binghe when he was yanked forward, and he fell into Luo Binghe's embrace as those arms tightened around his waist. Luo Binghe's fingers trailed down his side, occasionally squeezing and kneading. Hand. Hand. Thank you—hand! Your hand! When Shen Qingqiu went to grab Luo Binghe's paw in a backhanded grip, he twisted. Somehow Shen Qingqiu found himself pressed down on top of Luo Binghe's thigh with his legs apart, trapped in place. In the next moment, Luo Binghe caressed his nape before pulling him down, and his lips were captured again. (Book 4)

I’d also like to mention the first part here, where Shen Qingqiu’s beauty is described. I would dare to say that the description is similar to how one of Bingges wives would be spoken about. It’s like he’s justifying his sexual advance-it’s because of his graceful beauty, his figure, how he resembles a conquest that I am sexually initiating. Totally not because he showed me kindness for the first time in a way no wife ever could. when shen qingqiu does begin to resist and struggle, he sees it as par for the course, because he doesn’t know to see resistance as anything other than a coy game.

With a cold laugh, he encircled Shen Qingqiu's right wrist with one hand while continuing to press down on his nape with the other. Then he skillfully flipped them over, rolling them onto the bed together. Looking down at Shen Qingqiu from overhead, he smiled brightly. "What's wrong, Shizun? Don't you love me very much? So why aren't you willing to give in to me?" (Book 4)

he doesnt consider consent, only “giving in”. If someone isn’t willing, he must persist until they are. This is absolutely inexcusably rapist behavior. But it’s UNDOUBTABLY learned from how HE once was treated. And his idea of love is so shallow he thinks love = giving in to sex. If shen qingqiu loves him, why won’t he give in?

To him, love = sex. That can’t really be argued. So when Shen Qingqiu shows him affection, he naturally thinks sex will follow. Considering he is wasn’t very touchy or affectionate before coming onto him at all, I think that he initiates sex less out of sexual attraction and more out of an expectation someone cares for him only because they wish to bed him. Being sexually aggressive and dominant doesn’t make it not unhealthy, hypersexual behavior.

and as for the giving pleasure thing-he mentions several times Shen Qingqiu should chose him because he can bring him more pleasure. He genuinely cannot fathom the idea of choosing someone for an emotional connection and love over someone who can make you sexually pleased

Suddenly, he said, "With technique that bad, what's so good about him anyway?" When this line came out of nowhere, Shen Qingqiu's hand trembled a little. But he forced it down and continued attacking. Unfortunately, Bing-ge refused to restrain himself. "Shizun, you've already experienced my prowess. Since we're the same person, why not come with me? I'll definitely give you more pleasure than he could." (Book 4)

he doesn’t see himself as different than bingmei because they share a body. I would wager a guess to say that he thinks shen qingqiu won’t see a difference between bingmei and him because it’s the same body, and his body is whats desirable about him. Why not take the same body but with more sex skills?

The original's expression suddenly gentled as he looked at Shen Lingqiu. "Shizun, do you blame me for making things too painful last time?" Luo Binghe went wide-eyed. "Shizun, you've met him before?" If an encounter in the System counted as a meeting, then that was a yes. Not wanting to give a half-hearted answer, Shen Qingqiu said, "It was only a chance meeting.” (Book 4)

”why are you resisting? Was it because the sex wasn’t good?”

bingge is being sly and trying to rile up bingmei here but I find it interesting he poses the reason for himself being refused is because he couldn’t bring him pleasure and not because Shen Qingqiu didn’t want him or consent.

And so unfair. The image of the two of them standing together was so glaring that his eyes began to hurt, the rims prickling with heat. Even though they were both Luo Binghe... For what reason had that one been able to meet this sort of Shen Qingqiu, while he had only met a rotten bastard-vindictive, petty, and jealous to the core? For what reason?! The carefully preserved clothes and belongings, the pristine and tidy side room, the gentle whispers, the boundless doting and indulgence. He'd only wanted to humiliate them, because that disgusting relationship of theirs elicited nothing but his contempt, and yet— And yet the, "Come with me," that left his mouth in that instant was involuntary, and it was addressed to Shen Qingqiu. (Book 4)

Oh bingge…

describing their relationship as “disgusting” strikes me particularly. It’s kind of a stretch but I would maybe dare say he assumed there was some past sexual abuse involved in Bingmei and Shen Qingqiu’s relationship, given what he knows of the man and their power gap?

Since hed come of age, no one had ever managed to push him this far. Being at such a disadvantage reminded him of the days when hed been persecuted and humiliated, trampled over in all kinds of ways. (Book 4)

Also a stretch, but “all kinds of ways” could easily include sexual abuse as well. It’s possible Binghe was sexually abused by someone if not Shen Jiu.

Bing-ge humphed. "Who made you so useless?" he asked dis-dainfully. "To think you have not a single woman." His standard for "uselessness" was practically a drunkard's. But Luo Binghe's focus wasn't on this at all. In his fury, scarlet blood seemed about to drip from his eyes, and he said sharply, "You dare to humiliate Shizun like this..." (Book 4)

his standard for “uselessness” is not acquiring tons of women. Bingmei is inferior and weak because he lacks a harem. If that doesn’t speak to how he views sexual prowess as worth idk what could. It’s VERY in your face

"Just playing around, the other Luo Binghe said mildly. Shen Qingqiu was stunned silent. Playing around with who? Playing around with me? Bing-ge, you. you'd accept all comers?! Welcoming both men and women! Is this something like "both meat and fish are fine— I'm not picky, I'll eat whatever I'm given"? (Book 4)

Shen Qingqiu is surprised Bingge is bisexual which is kinda funny lol. But his casual attitude to initiating sex-“just playing around”-and how binghe will “accept all comers” speaks to a pretty unhealthy relationship with sex, no? (Not the bisexual part obviously)

In the past, Shen Qingqiu had given Luo Binghe quite a few miscellaneous errands. Thus, one could often have found him on Xian Shu Peak. From time to time he'd gone there to deliver a letter, distribute a notice, invite someone over, or borrow something. When male disciples from other peaks came, they would at least sneak a couple of peeps, peering around and around until they ended up looking inside the maidens' quarters or bathhouse. Naturally, they'd be r- [beep-] -ed to death by the maidens' swords long before they made it to the bathhouse. Only Luo Binghe had treated the peak's disciples with respect and consciously maintained a strict distance every time he came; his reputation at Xian Shu Peak was correspondingly high. Therefore, everyone on Xian Shu Peak had given him tacit permission to enter the inner halls to wait. (Book 4)

not even to mention the group of girls who begin fawning over him Immediately after this scene, you can see that in their youth, both binghes were incredibly courteous to Xian Shu and female disciples in general. Bingges sexual agression is a learned behavior, not inherent to him.

To me Bingmei always seemed like he didn't just not care about everyone's compliments about him, but that he actually also finds them uncomfortable (I think in fandom it's very much seen as LBH doesn't care abt anyone but SQQ, which I can get behind, but if you take that further you could also say -> Luo Binghe, in a healthier environment, does not care about being perceived as attractive/someone one would want to have sex with. He doesn't feel like he has to compensate for something with hypersexual behaviour/that he owes a stranger the rights to his body.)

Also interesting to note that, as far as I remember, his "wife collecting" only began after the Abyss, after enduring a period of extreme and prolonged vulnerability; which makes it even more of a point to note that his extreme overcompensation for this 'weakness', could also show itself in one of the ways he initially experienced that feeling of helplessness fist, here most notably being raped. (Giving back what he receives tenfold and all that)

Collecting women as sign of power is very much part of harem stories but I like the extra layer to this. He's not just doing it because it's expected of him, or because he quite literally depends on them, but also because he doesn't know how not to.

"became sexually assertive after a long time of being unable to resist sexual situations."

Love how you break down the text & this point took me outttt. Like, yeah. Very much a trauma response/ learned behaviour, where no-one thought to teach him otherwise or even directly profited off of his advances (or was not in a safe enough place themselves to talk about it)

Bingge who doesn't know how to categorize SQQs kindnessand & defaulting back to making sexual advances. Lust = Love and Love without Lust isn't Love at all. Airplane when I fucking get you

I wonder how much harem politics also play into establishing this mindset, because sex with the emperor -> clear sign of favour (-> loved more). Quite literally trapped himself in the cycle of abuse

Binghe's later character all being learned behaviour is such a big part of his tragedy for me, what makes the contrast to his early disciple days so drast. I've seen a lot of takes where this is only contributed to xin mo or his demon heritage (racist stuff I won't get into now) but it fits more like you explained it.

Bingge is a result of his environment, who was let down/taken advantage of by the people who should have protected him and all of this could've been easily prevented at any time. But instead the cycle continues

He doesn't see himself as different than Bingmei because they share a body. [...] It's the same body, and his body is what's desirable about him.

Lowk going insane about this. Shen Yuan in the body of Shen Qingqiu and immeadiatly adapting his life & Luo Bingge who defines himself with/as his body. I did a whole thesis of the concept of continued identity, I should've just used these two instead.

"Shizun, do you blame me for making things too painful last time?"

If this really is in reference to their encounter due the system*, it kinda paints it in a new light for me. Did Bingge (who was at that point, presumably, already post PIDW canon?) knew that the person he was torturing wasn't actually his Shizun, but because they had the same body so thus must obviously be the same (abusive) person, still chose to treat him as such?

*I originally thought Bingge said this about Bingmei and SQQs first time at maigu ridge. Cause he looked through his memories and all. I didn't think the Bingge from the punishment was real lmao. Bingge using this as manipulation definitely makes sense tho

I wonder how Bingge feels about their first time, then. It's kinda the same as his one, no? Just sort of a little tilted to the side. Here, instead of Qin Wanyue, it is Bingmei who needs to be cured of something & SQQ who offers himself in consolation (& love).

"She did it all for my sake. I don't have the heart to reject her final wish."

I'm most definitely pulling at straws but it's interesting to look at either way.

Edit because I can't stop thinking about this: Bingge describing bingqius relationship as "disgusting" but still asking Shen Qingqiu to come with him. I can't remember if it's mentioned on how far he looks into his memories but if he assumes that Shen Qingqiu had sexually abused Bingmei since he was young and still asked him to follow... AHH e makes me cry. He wants what Bingmei has, to be loved even when he's not useful, even if he's weak and be seen and cared for. And he wants that so bad than he's willing to offer his body for it, again. Aaaaaah!!!

First I would like to say, I find it interesting that Ning Yingying is binghe’s first and likely most favored as a result wife. The only girl who naturally developed a relationship with him and the only one to have ties to his past and his old shizun. Presumably, due to mutually noncon aphrodisiacs, she is not entirely clean of consent issues either, but it feels significant the three wives of his we know the most are a) girl who he grew up with and already loved platonically b) competent and capable woman who he almost never has sex with and who is also veiled so he can’t see her face when they do have sex c) someone of his own kind (a demon)

they are emblematic of bingge’s desire for:

genuine connection (nyy) an oasis against ditzy women and his constant rape (lmy) and someone who is also a demon and can fully accept what shen jiu condemned him for (shl)

lmy also being veiled-a literally “faceless” woman. We don’t know if bingge has seen behind the veil, but does it even matter? He never needs to lift the “veil” of the brides he takes. They are all hollow beneath, or may as well be, to him.

“he holds power over Binghe, while also being at his mercy”

very true! The most common mechanisms of forced to penetrate rape are

penetrator is physically incapacitated, while the rapist is in control of the penetration

penetrator is coerced or guilted into penetrative sex

penetrator is unable to give informed consent in some other capacity such as while drunk or being maliciously misled

and one that is very bingge specific-

penetrator is inebriated into sexual aggression or arousal and unable to control themselves SPECIFICALLY due to the actions of the penetrated, who did such with the intent of causing penetrative sex (example: a wife intentionally poisoning Bingge with sex pollen to get him to have sex with her)

The penetrated partner, the rapist, is physically or psychologically coercing/forcing their own penetration by the penetrator (take a shot every time I say penetrate lol. Obligatory disclaimer that of course there are other forms of woman on man or bottom on top rape that don’t involve penetration, as not all sex requires penetration and thus not all rape, but that’s neither here nor there), yet they are ALSO at the physical mercy of the penetrator (most of the time).

If we use Bingge language, sexual coercion=“seduction”. He believes Shen Qingqiu is seducing him by being kind and loving (he loves bingge = he wants to have sex with Bingge) thus giving him power over Bingge as the sexual coercer (in bingges mind) while Bingge asserts his physical dominance by initiating sex. This showing of kindness is seduction, a token of exchange-he isnt doing it for free, he wants favor, he wants sex.

Bingge has been playing the same role so long that he initiates his own rape, basically. Not in this instance, of course, but in general. He thus reclaims at least some agency, or so it feels. In being the physical aggressor, he is attempting to escape being “taken advantage of” even though he endlessly, endlessly is, for his body, his power and his title. I really meant it when I said he was raped by the universe itself. He is the center point of said universe-thus it is him everyone takes from. The masculine role of the provider at most extreme. He is a vessel for others to use without a care for him as a person. Xin mo who corrupts and damages him to use him to feed itself (am I out of line for saying xin mo is a rape metaphor too? Like obviously it makes him rape and be raped but isnt the sword also raping him? I am kind of insane about rape allegories, if you couldn’t tell) countless women who fuck themselves on his body like he is a literal sex toy (he doesn’t even need to be concious or lucid to be useful and sexy!!!!! So cool!!!) and a ruler, a vessel for politics (likely his wives control many things as I’m sure a lot of them wanted Bingge for proximity to political power) . Speaking of politics! Sex is also favor which is also power like you said. There is an advantage to be gained in getting the emperor to fuck you. Having his child is the ultimate goal, of course, to birth a future heir. I feel I don’t have to say how rapey that can be

collecting wives after just leaving the abyss where he was so vulnerable yes! A man who reclaims power and covers for weakness by using women and those women are using him! Awesome!

It's: the person you love the most wants you dead Vs you love him so much you'd excuse anything

I just can't get over how much it must fuck with him; Shen Qingqiu directly promised him he'd never let him get hurt, repeatedly told him he doesn't think less of demons, cared for and loved him for years, doting and guiding and teaching and Binghe loves him so much he'd do anything. But Shizun lied and now wants him dead, won't even give him the chance to explain himself. His hatred must outweigh his love and he can't look past the one part Luo Binghe can't change about himself.

And Binghe can't even hate him for it, because if Shen Qingqiu, the man he respects the most in the world, sees something evil and irredeemable in him, then how can he be wrong? Shizun says he is Evil so Binghe must not be Good. He needs to fix it, work double as hard to make up for this rotting thing inside him, proof himself as Better, so that one day Shen Qingqiu might excuse the fact that he Exists.

EDIT: I don't take kindly to those in positions of responsibility or duty of care towards me harming me proactively, unintentionally, or through neglect and dismissiveness. I really don't.

When I tell you something is a problem, I'm not asking, I'm warning. I will come down like a tonne of bricks.

I would say that recreating the characterisation, mood and general vibes of an existing work of fiction is in fact a skill in and of itself that's acquired via practice. A common compliment delivered to fanfiction writers is how well they have captured the spirit of the original work. Inexperienced fanfiction writers fail to do this.

When creating an original character you can, ultimately, say anything about them and now it's canon bcos you created them and you said so. conversely, well, if you are covering a well known song and start playing the wrong notes people will notice immediately.

In addition: a lot of fanfiction, IMO, is in actuality a form of metafictional literary analysis. a story where two characters sit down and talk about their feelings about a canonical event? literary analysis, which is of course a skill. Sometimes fanfiction is bad bcos the writer is not good at interpreting texts.

vinegar and bleach makes chlorine gas, which is highly toxic

ammonia and bleach makes chloramine, which is highly toxic

rubbing alcohol and bleach makes chloroform, which is highly toxic

hydrogen peroxide and vinegar makes peracetic/peroxyacetic acid, which can be highly corrosive

I just love them so much!!!

It's easy to dismiss it as LBH being dramatic, because we all know how much SQQ loves him and is absolutely smitten with the man, but his shizun literally killed himself. To get away from him.

They COULD'VE talked it out. To LBH it was something that could've been solved by two words from SQQ, all he had to hear was that his shizun didn't hate him, and he would've happily gone back with SQQ and returned to their life like it was before the abyss.

But instead of communicating and working through this, SQQ self-detonated, and once the whole story is over and LBH realizes his shizun never hated him, he has to confront the fact that SQQ would literally rather kill himself than talk to him.

Love the use of passive vs active voice here.

Died = something that happened

Murdered = something that happened to him

Never forget that regardless of the supposed justifications, regardless of whether Jason was reckless or naive or violent or angry or anything else of that sort...

what I really didn't expect going into it though and what has therefore really made the novel fascinating to me is the presentation of her husband, Caleb. going into it, all I really knew was that he's the husband of a tradwife (typically implies, I would think, a shitty person), and that he gotten deeper and deeper into the manosphere. so, like, obviously I'm not expecting much on likability or even... interest, tbh

but I actually found he was so much more sympathetic than anticipated and that just really provided a fascinating character that had. SO much more to say!!

SPOILERS but please read my analysis of him it'd mean the world to me I love the shifting of his dynamic with Natalie!