Cave of the ClearMancer

"​there are 21 [states] with restrictions." The problem here is "restrictions." Time to follow that link to get a better definition. The restrictions are on "local communities' rights to take their broadband destiny into their own hands by creating local networks—has again pitted huge telecom companies against the will of the people." Wait...first they said the problem was with state restrictions and now they're saying it's big ISPs. Let's dig into that more to see the actual mechanism by which ISPs are somehow puppeteering the state laws in all 21 states with restrictions (I've tabled the subject "cities" for the time being to handle this latest cause of the problem).

"[T]here's going to be some politicians (whose biggest donors may just happen to be telecom companies) who cry "big government" and try to thwart it." "It" in this context refers to federal overrides of state law to lift restrictions on cities that want to build their own new networks. There's the mechanism, further described in the link as House Representative Republicans: ISPs donate to House Representative Republicans, thus buying an implicit vote in their favor. If this is one of the linchpins of their entire argument about big ISPs banning small ISPs, we should have the documents that show how much was donated to each person in a race and who ended up winning. If it's in the article, I didn't see it. There's a hidden assumption in just this one isolated case: all you need to pass restrictions is to donate to a House Representative that is Republican. You don't need to buy off Democrats, the judicial branch, the Senate, or the state Executive branch (the governor, AG, etc.). Um, btw, I'm an anarchist. This kind of political hanky-panky is part of the reason why. There isn't any party or person that represents me as well as I do. Each person is the best representative of their own self unless it comes to lawsuits in which case it's best to hire someone who knows how to play the real life version of Dwarf Fortress-meets-Silent Hunter III in terms of complexity.

And the second linchpin catching the big ISPs red-handed: "most of the 20 states that have put limits on the creation of locally owned fiber networks have done so under the pressure of big telecom company lobbyists, who have increasingly tried to exert their influence on state and even local levels." Let's start with "most of the 20 states." That means at least 11. What about the other 10? Do the big ISPs not target the rest? If the big ISPs are what is behind state restrictions, why is it that the other states passed the restrictions when they had no big ISP lobbyists? The evidence isn't listed for this either. The article implies that lobbyists have a formal, official role in drafting law and somehow putting pressure on the state (from the first linchpin, it sounds like it's the House of every state that is to blame via donors). But this is delivered like it's a second point, rather than an extension of the first one. There's no law that says the state has to agree to whatever lobbyists say. In fact, there's no law that says, "whoever spends the most money in a campaign wins." If anything, that assumption implies that "the people" or "the community" or "cities" or "the neighborhood" or "muh sacred populous" is too stupid to vote for someone who wouldn't sell them out in favor of the big ISPs. In that case, why would the people deserve fast and cheap Internet with unbiased access when clearly all that makes the decision for them is who spends the most on campaign ads? "The people" are supposed by the author to be put on the highest pedestal as the most respected body, and then when they make a stupid decision that negatively impacts them, suddenly they're the pitiable victim.

Btw, you and Kirsten can feel free to come over to my house sometime and play board games. It'd beat fighting about a boring topic. I can buy pizza and booze or other edible/potable items.

Okay, back to fighting on the Internet. Now that we know what is supposedly stopping "cities" from establishing new networks, let's see what the authors mean by "cities." Following their links to their definition, Koebler conflates "cities" with "government buildings," i.e. local government buildings; Koebler also conflates city governments with local governments in Koebler's own headline, even though later in the article Koebler makes a distinction between the two. The real conflation here lies in what defines a city: the people in the government, the government buildings, the regional area that defines the city limits and all land contained therein, or the people who are not in the government.

Again, it's important to precisely define who it is that the restrictions by the state apply to: "Throughout the country, [big ISPs] have signed agreements with cities that prohibit local governments from becoming internet service providers and prohibit municipalities from selling or leasing their fiber to local startups who would compete with these huge corporations." Wait, I thought it was state rules that were restricting new ISPs from being established within cities; because big ISPs are using the state to ban cities from getting new businesses building in the city limits, right? I mean, this is supposed to be the link that explains all the other links, yet all the article is referring to doesn't involve the state. That's because the state restriction applies to counties, cities, and municipalities--in those states which have restrictions, those government entities are "banned" from funding new networks on behalf of serving the general population not in the government.

In this particular quote, what we're seeing is municpal governments (not city governments) aka local governments (not city governments) that have big ISP networks for their own buildings. No run-in with state law restrictions there. The state will allow cities, etc. to fund government building networks, purchased from big ISPs or any ISP, as long as they aren't establshing a new department that builds networks like a government-operated utility (not a GRU, but something equivalent to the DMV). There are also city governments (not municipal governments) that have government buildings with government-funded networks purchased from ISPs. The cities are telling the ISPs, "the state says we aren't allowed to create public networks as utilities, but we as the government are allowed to have them. The state says we aren't allowed to share, so we're relaying that message to you. We can have the networks, but we can't share them, lease them, or sell them." The big ISPs can still set up a distinct network for the rest of the area, but it's got to be done with private funding.

My 8house collaborator and impressive dude, Xurxo g Penalta translated this Spanish Moebius list of advice for artists. I thought would be cool to post. (Thanks Xurxo)

http://www.jornada.unam.mx/1996/08/18/sem-moebius.html

1. when you draw you must clean yourself of deep feelings (hate, happiness, ambition, etc)

2 it's important to educate the hand, attain obedience, to full fill ideas. but careful with perfection, to much, as well as too much speed, as well as their opposites are dangerous. to much looseness, instant drawings,aside from mistakes, there's no will of the spirit, only the bodies.

3. perspective is of sum importance, it;s a law of manipulation in the good sense, to hypnotise the reader. it;s good to work in real spaces, more that with photos, to exercise our reading of perspective.

4.another thing to learn with affection is the study of the human body, the positions, the types, the expressions, the arquitecture of bodies, the difference between people. the drawing is very different when it come to a male or a female, because in the male you can change a little the lines, it supports to have some impressions. but with the female precision must be perfect, if not she may turn ugly or upset. then no one buys our book! so for the reader believes the story, the characters must have life and personality of their own, gestures that come from character, from their diseases; the body transforms with life and there's a message in the structure, in the distribution of fat, in every muscle, in every fold of the face and body. it;s a study of life.

5. when you make a story you can start with out knowing everything, but making notes (in the actual story) about the particular world of that story. that way the reader recognizes and becomes interested. when a character dies in a story, and that character has no story drawn in his face in his body, in his dress, the reader does not care, there's no emotion. and then the editors say: "your story is worthless, there's only one dead guys and I need 2) or 30 dead guys for it to work" but that is not true, if the dead guy, or wounded guy or sick guys or whomever is in trouble has a real personality that comes from study, from the artists capacity for observation, emotion will emerge (empathy). In the study you develop an attention for others, a compassion, and a love for humanity.

it's very important for the development of an artist, if he wants to be a mirror, it must contain inside it;s consciousness the whole world, a mirror that sees everything.

6. jodorwosky says I don't like drawing dead horses. it;s very difficult. it's very difficult to draw a body that sleeps, that's abandoned, because in comics you're always studying action. it;s easier to draw people fighting thats way Americans always draw superheroes. it;s more difficult to draw people talking, because there are a series of movements, very small, but that have a significance, and that accounts for more, because it need love, attention to the other, to the little things that speak of personality, of life. the superheores have no personality, all of them have the same gestures and movements (pantomimes ferocity, running and fighting)

7. equally important is the clothing of the characters, the state they;re in, the materials, the textures are a vision of their experiences, of their lives, their situation in the adventure, that can say a lot with out words. In a drew there's a million folds, you must chose 2 or 3, but the good ones.

8. the style, the stylistically continuity of an artist is symbolical, it can be read like the tarot. I chose as a joke the name Moebius, when I was 22, but in truth there's a meaning to that. if you bring a t shirt with Don Quixote, that speaks to me of who you are. in my case, I give importance to a drawing of relative simplicity, that way subtle indications can be made.

9. when an artist, a drawing artist goes out on the street, he does not see the same things other people see. what he sees is documentation about a way of life, about people.

10. another important element is composition. the composition on our stories must be studied, because a page, or a painting, is a face that looks towards (faces) the reader and that speaks to him. it's not a succession of panels with out meaning. there's panels that are full and some that are empty, others that have a vertical dynamic or a horizontal one, and on that there is intention. the vertical excites (cheers), the horizontal calms, an oblique to the right , for us westerners, represents the action heads towards the future, and oblique to the left directs action toward the past. points (points of attention) represent a dispersion of energy. something places in the middle focalises energy and attention, it concentrates.

these are basic symbols for reading, that exercise a fascination, a hypnosis. you must have a consciousness about rhythm, set traps for the reader to fall on to, and if he falls, and gets lost and may move inside them with pleasure because there's life. you must study the great painters, the ones that speak with their paintings, of any school or period, that does not matter, and they must be seen with that preoccupation for physical composition, but also emotional. in what way the combination of lines on that artist touches us directly in the heart.

11. narration must harmonize with the drawing. there must be a visual rhythm from the placement of words, plot must correctly maneuver cadence, to compress or expand time. must weary of the election and direction of characters. use them as a film director and study all different takes.

12. careful with the devastating influence of north american comics in mexico, they only study a little anatomy, dynamic composition, the monsters, the fights, the screaming and teeth (grin). I like them as well, but there are many other possibilities that must be explored.

13. there's a connection between music and drawing. but that depends also on the personality and the moment. for perhaps 10 years I've been working in silence, and for me the music is rhythm of the lines (the music he listens to).

to draw is sometimes to hunt for findings, an exact (fair, just) line is an orgasm!

14. color is a language that the artist (drawing artist) uses to manipulate the readers attention and to create beauty. there's objective and subjective color, the emotional states of the character influence the coloring and lighting can change from one panel to the next, depending on the space represented and the time of the day. the language of color must be studied with attention.

15. especially at the beginning of a career, one should work on short stories but of a very high quality. there's a better chance to finish them successfully and place them on a book or with editors.

16. there are times when we are headed to failure knowingly, we choose a theme, an existence, a technique that does not suit (convene) us. you must not complain afterwards.

17. when new pages are sent to editors and see rejection, we should ask for the reasons. we must study the reasons for failure and learn. it's not about struggle with our limitations or with public or the publishers. it's more about treating it like in aikido; the strength (power) of the attack is used to defeat him with the same effort.

18. now it is possible to find reader in any part of the planet. we must have this present. to begin with, drawing is a way of personal communication, but this does not imply that the artist must envelop himself in a bubble; it' communication with the beings near us, with oneself, but also with unknown people. Drawing is a medium to communicate with the great family we have not met, the public, the world.

https://graphtreon.com/patreon-creators/drawing-painting Also if these morons spent five minutes on dA, they'd find plenty of brilliant artists doing traditional media landscapes and figures. If they want reproductions of the old masters, there's plenty of hand-made forgeries available in Hong Kong. https://www.deviantart.com/.../lands.../popular-all-time/...

https://olejny.deviantart.com/gallery/

https://denismayerjr.deviantart.com/gallery/

https://uvar.deviantart.com/gallery/

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Choose File Nick Praying. Like · Reply · 1 · Yesterday at 12:20pm Bekka C. Praying Like · Reply · Yesterday at 1:07pm Cerena ???????? Like · Reply · Yesterday at 1:29pm Todd Praying Like · Reply · Yesterday at 1:31pm Brenda Praying Like · Reply · Yesterday at 1:36pm Jay Prayed Like · Reply · Yesterday at 2:06pm Jeffrey ?? Like · Reply · Yesterday at 2:06pm Barbara Praying! Like · Reply · Yesterday at 2:57pm Joel Benedict Joel Benedict Praying to Quetzalcoatl that he doesn't pull through to cancel out the other prayers because that's how it works. Like · Reply · 23 hours ago Joel Benedict Joel Benedict Wow, I got what I prayed to Quetzalcoatl for. The officer died, even when all those others prayed to an inferior God. Proof that Quetzalcoatl is real. Warm up those altars and get the big knife ready. Like · Reply · 22 hours ago · Edited Nick H Dude... why?

Just... why? Unlike · Reply · 2 · 12 hrs Sam If what someone else believes in bothers you enough to make you say disgusting things like this, you need to reevaluate your life. Unlike · Reply · 1 · 7 hrs Joel Benedict Joel Benedict If what someone else says disgusts you enough to be bothered by it, you haven't been on the Internet enough. Like · Reply · 2 hrs Sam Man, I get that you get off on offensive comments, but don't bring your brony, 4chan trolling bs to a post like this where people are being decent. There are fb groups for that. Unlike · Reply · 1 · 2 hrs · Edited Joel Benedict Joel Benedict Sam Decent people don't worship genocidal maniacs, Sam. Like · Reply · 1 hr Sam Joel decent people let people live the lifestyles they choose to without ridicule Unlike · Reply · 1 · 1 hr Joel Benedict Joel Benedict Sam You're saying that someone who ridicules is not a decent person, yet labeling someone else is a form of criticism. Criticism is only okay when Sam is the one passing judgement. What nonsense. Absurdities deserve to be labeled as such. Like · Reply · 1 hr Sam I'm sorry, when did I pass judgement? When did I label you? Like · Reply · 1 hr Joel Benedict Joel Benedict Sam You said my tactics don't belong to groups where people are decent. The suggestion there is that my comments, and by extension, I am not decent. Judgement passed. You said that decent people don't ridicule. The suggestion there is that I'm ridiculing, and by extension, I'm not decent. Judgement passed, Sam schooled. Like · Reply · 54 mins Sam If you say so. Fact is, you said something indecent and inappropriate. You're defending it, you stand by it, so it's more of an inference than a judgement. But by all means, school me some more about proper social etiquette. You know so much about it. Like · Reply · 49 mins Joel Benedict

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Choose File Nick Joel Benedict I don't know what's up with you. Are you deliberately trying to be a jerk? What the hecks wrong with you? Unlike · Reply · 6 · 22 hours ago · Edited Joel Benedict Joel Benedict Grow up, Nick. Prayer does nothing and never has. If you want to support the officer's family, you can do it without an imaginary friend. Like · Reply · 17 hrs Joe You're right Joel. Reaching out and acting in faith and putting your hope into words and allowing others to join in that voice of hope is a terrible thing that smacks of illusion and psychosis.

He should just be an asshole who trolls people attempting to do some type of good within their community...

Do you have such a repulsion to faith based ideas when you visit the numerous hospitals that were founded out of that same hope and faith? Do you have the same disdain for the families of fallen veterans who cling to such hope because it is all they have while there loved ones are away?

And why should he abandon his hope and faith? If the reasoning is so he can become the type of person you are presenting to the world, I think I'll just stick to my 'imaginary friend' than a 'real' asshole.

I did not know the officer; however, I have friends who are close friends of his family. They are in mourning and they prayed out of hope and faith in something greater and bigger than them self. That is the point of prayer.

How about you grow up and find better things to do than to troll people based out of your supposed superior intellect and understanding of the world. Like · Reply · 4 · 14 hrs Faith Delete your post Nick and remove his air time. We know prayer works - testimony on top of testimony on top of testimony.... Like · Reply · 13 hrs Joel Benedict Joel Benedict Faith Yeah, delete any evidence that all those prayers did jack squat to save the officer. Google argumentum ad populum, Faith. Testimony is for late night infomercials, double-blind peer reviewed studies are for reality. Like · Reply · 1 hr Joel Benedict Joel Benedict Joe So far none of you have helped in any material way, Joe. I'm hearing a lot of smack talk and no action. Hoping for something does nothing; actively influencing something via action does something. Typing repetitive comments on a page is a game for people who feel the need to be included, who fear something bad will happen if they don't participate in the ritual. You want to change the world, you've got to make it happen.

Would those hospitals be the same ones that receive county, state, and federal funds at my expense? They deserve to be held responsible for their theft, not to be admired.

Did those veterans start a family prior to taking a knowingly risky job? The responsibility for their families is theirs; if their family suffers as a result of the veteran's gamble, it's reckless negligence, not a noble act. Did those veterans take a job paid for at my expense, with death benefits paid for at my expense, with their families living off of my dime for the rest of their lives? They don't deserve pity for their theft, and neither does the officer's family.

Faith and hope in indefensible, fictional things should never have been taken up in the first place, same as any bad habit. Great, dig in your heels in favor of something no more real than Odin, Ba'al, or Ishtar. There's a sucker born every minute, no reason you shouldn't jump on the bandwagon. Plenty of room for everyone. I notice you have no problem assuming that you are right a priori, but have a significant lack of anything resembling a reason for the faith you have. Like say...evidence.

Them self? Themselves, you mean? Okay, so the point of prayer is to ask for help from the thin air because it's better and more powerful than them. Since they aren't so great in the first place, no reason to mourn when one of their worthless number is lost, right? Because only something that is anything other than them is worthy of hope? And sending positive willpower vibes and self-deprecation out into the ether will make your emotions into not-sad ones? Sheesh, what a misanthropic worldview.

Yeah, you're right, Dr. Simon. My poor dum-dum head just can't fathom the all-knowing nature of talking snakes and donkeys. Sigh, if only I could understand the enlightenment that comes from knowing pi is exactly 3 and the world is a circle supported on four columns. I'll go stare at the wall with drool coming out of my mouth now. Or read about purgatorius coracis, since both are equally nonsensical. Like · Reply · 1 hr Joe I love the sound of self-righteous condemnation.

I'm glad your morality 101 course has served you well (and if we based our arguments in syntax and English grammar, you sure would have me all up a tree).

There is a fool born every minute, that is all true and good. They come from all walks and beliefs.

There are also pretentious pricks born at the same, if not greater rate.

Your lack of respect for anybody but yourself and what few groups or people that can stomach your over-inflated ego is all too obvious.

You talk of reality, yet ignore only that which you can see and experience.

I have faith and hope in many things. Most of it is in the lives of people like Nick who have proven themselves (happy with my correction? Does it help you understand what was said. I'm sorry them self was too confusing for you to follow) worthy of having faith and hope in.

As for the rest of your recycled diatribe that offers nothing new except revealing your own personal level of cynicism, I'll save my breath. You have placed your nose in a situation it was never needed to go. You have already represented yourself adequately enough to reveal you care nothing for the thoughts of others unless they just happen to agree with you.

You are no better than any person who used religion to perpetuate evil acts throughout history. But wrap up your disdain in religion. Pretend that the world would be better, it is what you have placed hope and faith in. Hope and faith that the world would finally be whatever you wish it would be if all the 'ignorant' people who don't think like you just weren't in the way....

Either way, I have been around the world a time or two. Met people from cultures that you can't possibly understand. I have experienced humanity in a manner that you clearly have not...

Either way. This was never about you, Nick, religion or me. It was about community support and allowing people the chance to show their support. It may not be the 'tangible' support that you wish, but it was support none the less.

You would rather have nothing said at all rather than such a 'cheap display' of public support and hope. That is your business and your ideology but don't wrap it up in pretentious morality 101 course material and expect me to fall all over myself. I have spoken with far smarter than you who have felt very similar to you. Those men and women are worth far greater respect than your tired diatribe. Unlike · Reply · 1 · 40 mins Joel Benedict Joel Benedict Joe Wow, you love The Sound of Self-Righteous Condemnation too? I've got their first two albums and the fourth one, but I heard the third one was sub-par.

No Joe, I do not give respect to fools. I give respect to those who deserve it. Lack of self-respect might be why you've fallen in with misanthropes. I don't know what world you live in, but where I come from, I make no pretense of being hostile to fools. You might want to look up the Urban Dictionary definition of "prick." Not exactly Jesus-talk.

"You talk of reality, yet ignore only that which you can see and experience." Uh, did you mean that I ignore that which I cannot see and experience? There's this thing called indirect observation, Joe. Along with logic and philosophy, but since those are things I ignore, they're not relevant to this discussion, are they?

Ah, so you don't have faith and hope in a magic sky-fairy and just in other humans. Actually that does clear things up. I thought you were yet another goosestepping theocrat, but I guess I was wrong. See, now was that so hard? Watch, I'll do it slowly so you can see how it's done: I was wrong about you being a religious wacko following ritualistic mysticism. Oh, but wait, I'm the one who only listens to the echo chamber, so I couldn't possibly be wrong in the first place.

Which evil act am I perpetuating exactly? I don't remember any...uh...Quetzocoatl! Now I remember. Yeah, ha ha, the human sacrifice thing. Boy, that is pretty evil. You know, it would be a real shame if other religions were built entirely around human sacrifice and blood worship. Luckily Christianity has none of that.

Hmm...what would life be like with a predominantly atheist population? Well, when we look at the demographics of atheism worldwide, what we see is an increase in economic prosperity and a decrease in poverty. Then again, I'd have to find someone else to make fun of endlessly.

Saying "I wish you well" isn't support, tangible or otherwise. Don't get me wrong, I'd much rather have people say something, just so long as it's not pity towards a professional thief. Maybe you can connect me with these far-smarter people. It could be that they deserve even less respect than my tired diatribe has given them so far. Like · Reply · 4 mins Joel Benedict

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Choose File Emily I agree with Faith. I was also going to suggest removing the post. I would hate to think the family and friends are reading the very heartless words. Whether you believe or don't, a man lost his life trying to protect the very city this guy lives in. Clearly at some point this was a friend or acquaintance of yours, Nick. Keep praying for Joel that he does not have to suffer the obvious pain and anguish he is experiencing. No atheist I've ever met wishes for death upon someone. This Joel is suffering. May God or the universe, or whatever brings him peace and happiness restore his heart for humanity. Unlike · Reply · 2 · 12 hrs Joel Benedict Joel Benedict I don't know if you're aware of this, but people without a pulse don't exactly have time to post on social media. Oh, you meant compassion. Right. I forget quite often how compassionate copy-pasting the same response over anything in your news feed is.

The guy lost his life trying to play chicken with a rival criminal. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. He was on the clock with money paid for via forcible taking.

Suffering? I'm chilling at home getting a laugh out of a sanctimonious, self-adulating fandom out of touch with reality. But hey, if that's suffering, turn up the flames baby. B|

Wow, now that you've said that magic spell, suddenly I have an urge to give huge sums of money to police unions and televangelists. Thank you for fixing my non-functional cardio-respiratory system Emily. Like · Reply · 59 mins Emily Man, oh man, you've got a bunch of people praying for you now. I think that's ultimately what you wanted, right? I've got all kinds of things I'd like to say to you but maybe I'll just say a few. I love you even though I don't know you. I will pray for peace in your life into the "thin air" as you call it. Have a good one, Joel. Unlike · Reply · 1 · 13 mins Joel Benedict Joel Benedict Emily Boy, how flattering. A bunch of people chanting to themselves due to Internet butthurt. Wait--I'm feeling something. Yes, yes....positive energy vibes wafting my way. I now have peace in my life! Ta-da! Like · Reply · Just now Joel Benedict

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Choose File Jeffrey I say don't give him any more power then he thinks he has. He wants you to delete your post so that your positive energy and prayers are not voiced. Like · Reply · 10 hrs Joel Benedict Joel Benedict So if he deletes the post, I win because the prayers aren't voiced, but if he keeps the post up, I win because I have evidence that prayers do nothing. It's a win-win all the way bro. B| Like · Reply · 57 mins Joel Benedict

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Choose File Lora Prayer has been answered but it is not within anyone's ability to evaluate al the millions of prayer supplications over thousands of years to definitively say prayer has no effect. Also, prayer is not exclusively about request but has other goals such as praise. I have personally had prayer answered as I hoped and other times not. My faith is not a checklist and my God is not Santa Claus. His ways are not my ways,his thoughts are not my thoughts. If atheism's result is to mock and deride those who are reaching out to those that do pray to God I cannot respect it as a "belief". Unlike · Reply · 1 · 2 hrs Joel Benedict Joel Benedict Name one time when any prayer has been answered as a result of the act of praying. And no, George Nostradamus Mueller doesn't count. It's a strawman to say that all prayers need to be analysed. All you need is a double-blind peer reviewed study of a controlled group and set of expectations. It's the request and reward part I'm criticizing here. The worship of a genocidal maniac is bad enough on its own.

See now that's the crux--you have hopes, sometimes they pan out, sometimes they don't. The prayer, though, has zero effect on it happening one way or the other. God is unchanging; there's no reason why you couldn't make a predictable checklist. You're right, God isn't Santa Claus; at least Saint Nicholas was a real person at one point before ritualistic mysticism took over.

The verse about God's super-duper superior ways could be said about anything and anyone, fiction or non-fiction. "Ah, it is not within my duty to question Mubarak, Vishnu, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Allah, Ariel Castro, or the guy rubbing butter all over his naked body on the sidewalk. Their ways are not mine, their thoughts are not mine." It's granting something power a priori without examining any of the many, many reasons why those sources shouldn't be given the benefit of faith.

Atheism isn't a belief. The prefix "a-" just means "not this." For example, I'm guessing you haven't listened to much Linkin Park. You would then be a-Linkin Park.

Theism and those who pray deserve derision just as much as flat-earthers or believers in any other falsity. Emotionally vulnerable people trying anything to gain personal security, just as long as it doesn't involve being grounded in reality deserves no respect. Certainly not when it involves a gonzo cult. Like · Reply · 36 mins Joel Benedict

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http://rhg.thehuffingtonriposte.com/.../never-consult... NEVER CONSULT SNOPES AGAIN I've been saying this about snopes for a few years now. I've noticed mistakes in their "facts" now and then, but… rhg.thehuffingtonriposte.com|By Leo Rugiens Like · Reply · 1 · Yesterday at 12:33pm David Baird David Baird Two liberal hacks in California with a political ax to grind:

http://dailyheadlines.net/.../snopes-fact-checker-is.../ Snopes Fact-Checker EXPOSED As a Failed Liberal Blogger and Downright FRAUD dailyheadlines.net|By Steven H Ahle Like · Reply · Yesterday at 12:39pm Joel Benedict Joel Benedict Do you or do you not have a source that was written prior to the 20th century regarding the candy cane apocrypha? Like · Reply · Yesterday at 12:41pm Hide 14 Replies David Baird David Baird According to folklore, in 1670, in Cologne, Germany, the choirmaster at Cologne Cathedral, wishing to remedy the noise caused by children in his church during the Living Crèche tradition of Christmas Eve, asked a local candy maker for some sweet sticks for them.[3][4][5][6] In order to justify the practice of giving candy to children during worship services, he asked the candy maker to add a crook to the top of each stick, which would help children remember the shepherds who visited the infant Jesus.[3][4][5] In addition, he used the white colour of the converted sticks to teach children about the Christian belief in the sinless life of Jesus.[3][4][5] From Germany, candy canes spread to other parts of Europe, where they were handed out during plays reenacting the Nativity.[4][6] As such, according to this legend, the candy cane became associated with Christmastide.[1]

A recipe for straight peppermint candy sticks, white with coloured stripes, was published in 1844.[7] The candy cane has been mentioned in literature since 1866.[8] It was first mentioned in association with Christmas in 1874,[9] and only as recently as 1882 was hung on Christmas trees.[10] Like · Reply · Yesterday at 12:44pm Joel Benedict Joel Benedict Fair enough. So now what is the date of publication and the title of this "folklore" book, and is there a reproduction available with an ISBN? Peppermint wasn't documented as a species until 1753. The wiki copypasta above says that the first mention of peppermint sticks wasn't until 1844, let alone 1670. The mention in 1866 doesn't forward the idea of the story, it's just a description of the actual product. The first mention of Christmas having anything to do with it was in the context of a kid asking Santa for a bunch of other confections (figs, grapes, some oranges, some candy, etc.), again, no connection to anything evangelical so far. The 1882 mention has the first mention of them being hung on a tree, still without any evangelical connection, unless you want to count the other stuff hung on the tree (popcorn balls, oranges) as having a profoundly gospel-spreading message. The first machine wasn't invented until 1919, and the first patent wasn't until 1921. Still nothing other than candy and gears. Finally 1957 rolls around; a man who worked at a candy factory bending candy canes eventually gets around to patenting a candy cane machine. He becomes a priest. There's nothing that says that he so much as made a sermon out of it. All of this is well after Polkagris has been popularized in Sweden since 1859, and was named after polka and candy, and didn't have a curve at all.

Now we're finally finally at 2001. Parker's book is published. Suddenly all of that history is wrong and it turns out it was made as an evangelical tool back in the 17th century the whole time. No references needed, just go by this one source that makes a blind assertion.

Folklore and urban legends are oral history until they are written down. The written documentation serves as a way of dating the story more accurately than the oral traditions. Mythbusters spent years trying to reproduce the circumstances around legends to find whether the oral stories were feasible or not. Some were, some were completely false.

Oral history isn't the most reliable means of documenting something, certainly not for fact-checking. To put it into perspective, here's another instance of an urban legend, a written one. It's an example of something that appears out of nowhere and retroactively asserts a continuity of history, kind of like a backronym. Now, the events never actually happened in this story, but by the time the story caught on, people assumed the origin of the story was true. The way it was proved false was the sudden appearance of the story post-dating the actual airing of the show on a random message board. Another example might be the "Berenstain/Berenstein Bears" thing--no matter how much people insist they remember the accurate name was "Berenstein," the authors have always been Berenstain. All it takes is checking the source of the first instance a term or story appears.

As a Christian, your main loyalty is to the truth, not loyalty to some fabricated story that happens to take credit for something unrelated to the church. It would be like saying a Christian came up with all of Steven Hawking's theories.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/candle-cove http://www.berenstainbears.com/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confabulation... Candle Cove Candle Cove is a creepypasta story written by Kris Straub in 2009 about a fictional TV show… knowyourmeme.com Like · Reply · Remove Preview · 23 hrs David Baird David Baird We put lights on the tree because Jesus is the light of the World. We put up a tree because it is ever-green representing Jesus eternal life. The first ornament we hang is a nail and it is place near the trunk as the tree also represents the future cross. We place the manger scene under the tree because Jesus is the greatest gift of all. We put a star on the tree because it represents the "star" that guided the wise men to the new born King. And, if I desire to see Jesus in the candy-cane, I most certainly will regardless of what "snopes" says. It is not just the truth of the matter but the spirit of the matter. This meme made no other claims, historical or otherwise, and they are no different than the ones I have presented here. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord! Like · Reply · 1 · 21 hrs Joel Benedict Joel Benedict David Baird Do I understand correctly that you do not assert the historical authenticity of the origin of the candy cane as an evangelical tool? Like · Reply · 19 hrs Zuz Hr Zuz Hr Joel Benedict And who gives a hoot?! You are trying to have a debate over a piece of CANDY CANE!

What in the world is wrong with you?

A person can believe in whatever he/she wants. And the beauty of it is that this person can find a reminder of that faith in every day things.

I believe that to find the beauty, strength and blessings is the most powerful thing because at the end of the day, faith gives you hope to keep you going through life even during the hardest of times.

Everyone believes in something, you probably just haven't hit rock bottom hard enough yet that the only thing you had to keep going was faith.

But way to go buzzkill, because you just seem to enjoy causing arguments and spewing venom at Christmas time over a friggin candy cane!

It seem that you could use a little faith that somebody loves you.

Need a hug?! Unlike · Reply · 4 · 8 hrs · Edited Joel Benedict Joel Benedict I can always use more hugs. 😀 The reason I kept pushing on this was exactly because it is such a simple minor issue. It should be an easy matter of looking up what the history of something was and calling someone out on misinformation. There's more than enough complicated topics surrounding historical revisionism without adding one more. The resistance I'm seeing on the issue is more indicative of demagoguery than a desire to learn the truth about something. I can't apologize for crashing someone's party if it's built on fantasy. Truth isn't venom, it's sweet. Like · Reply · 4 hrs Zuz Hr Zuz Hr Dude, I am not even a religious person. This is not any different looking at the sky and thinking what a beautiful day it is, and be grateful for a nice weather. I don't need the scientific and historical truth to appreciate it. Like · Reply · 4 hrs Joel Benedict Joel Benedict There's a difference between apophia and passing a fictional story off as non-fiction. Like · Reply · 2 hrs Zuz Hr Zuz Hr Joel Benedict you are Hopeless! OMG! Has to have a last word and keep arguing over something, ANYTHING just to say that you're better than the rest of us. Because if we agreed on something that would be impossible, you would find something else to argue about, and to disagree and stop wasting time on explaining anything to you means you think you "won".. well, it is pretty easy: Here is where Faith comes in. Because this is when I give up on you and hope that you can agree to disagree and learn to share the appreciation for the small things in life, instead of trying to prove your point over a dag on candy cane. Like · Reply · 2 hrs · Edited Joel Benedict Joel Benedict Two people can't disagree on the objective truth of something. With objective truth, the dissident isn't disagreeing, they're just wrong on the facts.

You're reading way too much into this debate. This isn't about someone being superior to others, it's about historical facts. The individual is the only one who can determine what is and isn't a waste of time, no one else can decide that for them. If faith means believing in something already proven false, it's pretty worthless. Like · Reply · 1 hr David Baird David Baird Joel, it is you who have missed the point....again! You put your faith in Snopes and other worthless sites. You have objected to something that isn't even there. I never made a truth or historical claim in this post; as I tried to explain to you and pound into your thick head, the meme makes no claim to historical accuracy or truth. You have found your way into a worm hole again and polluted my thread, my time, and my brain with your worthless, godless drivel! Honestly, I have had just about enough of it! Unlike · Reply · 4 · 1 hr Lisa Baird Lisa Baird Zuz Hr thanks for the smile. Like · Reply · 2 · 1 hr Zuz Hr Zuz Hr Joel Benedict LMAO! Point made. PERIOD! 😂😂😂😂😂😂 Like · Reply · 1 hr Zuz Hr Zuz Hr Lisa Baird Merry belated Christmas and Happy New Year! 🎊 Like · Reply · 1 · 50 mins · Edited I don't know about you guys, but I'm looking at this calmly with a sense of curiousity detached from an axe to grind.

Does the meme suggest the origin of the candy cane is evangelical? It doesn't appear to at first glance. It doesn't cite any references at all, let alone go through a detailed history of the confection. Rather than suggest the urban legend is true, instead it parrots two of the items in the urban legend: shepherd's crook? Check. White equals pure? Check. Red stripes equals blood? Check (although the meme does skip the Trinitarian part about three stripes equals the Godhead). The "J" for Jesus, candy equals sweet, and vicarious torture for redemption appear to be original to the meme. So no, it's not suggesting anything historical, it just mimics the lesson Parker fabricated in 2001.

Am I then objecting to something that isn't there? The apophia isn't what I've objected to at any point. I can't stop people from looking at constellations and seeing their ex-girlfriend or whatever they are reminded of by a neutral, passive stimulus. It's the fake history and people taking credit where credit is not due that I'm objecting to. The wikipedia page does forward the urban legend and does make a historical claim and asserts the truth of the urban legend. Who copypasted the wikipedia article which makes a historical claim?

I'm not going to defend Snopes. It's a starting point, not an ending point for fact checking. If I see a viral video about an absurd baseball catch, I just google it and see that someone has already checked it out. From there I can fact-check the fact-checkers. Were they right about the fake history being fake? Yes. Are they right all the time? No. Huffington Post is a bad site too, but that didn't stop you from linking to it about one thing that was true.

So far I haven't dug myself into an argument I can't defend in this thread. If there's another thread you're referring to where I held an indefensible argument, I'd like to see it so I can educate myself and correct my error. Just link me to it.

Now we're finally finally at 2001. Parker's book is published. Suddenly all of that history is wrong and it turns out it was made as an evangelical tool back in the 17th century the whole time. No references needed, just go by this one source that makes a blind assertion.

Folklore and urban legends are oral history until they are written down. The written documentation serves as a way of dating the story more accurately than the oral traditions. Mythbusters spent years trying to reproduce the circumstances around legends to find whether the oral stories were feasible or not. Some were, some were completely false.

Oral history isn't the most reliable means of documenting something, certainly not for fact-checking. To put it into perspective, here's another instance of an urban legend, a written one. It's an example of something that appears out of nowhere and retroactively asserts a continuity of history, kind of like a backronym. Now, the events never actually happened in this story, but by the time the story caught on, people assumed the origin of the story was true. The way it was proved false was the sudden appearance of the story post-dating the actual airing of the show on a random message board. Another example might be the "Berenstain/Berenstein Bears" thing--no matter how much people insist they remember the accurate name was "Berenstein," the authors have always been Berenstain. All it takes is checking the source of the first instance a term or story appears.

As a Christian, your main loyalty is to the truth, not loyalty to some fabricated story that happens to take credit for something unrelated to the church. It would be like saying a Christian came up with all of Steven Hawking's theories.