How to Debate Leftists

Me when a leftist gets mad that I took a few days to reply to his barely-coherent ask post.

And company corruption and unfair play is what leads to these horrible outcomes and monopolies arising, not capitalism itself. If the government stopped playing favorites and allowed dying companies to fail, or if they stopped raising the barriers to entry on certain industries, we would never have monopolies in the long term, and companies that treated workers poorly would be boycotted and eventually fail.

But this is 21st century America, our working conditions are some of the best in the world. And, despite the best efforts of the Democratic party, we are still heavily capitalist. 

Whitesplaining White Privilege

The concept of white privilege has become an important bulwark of the Democratic Party’s ideology and was discussed in nearly every Democratic debate.  

“What is white privilege,” you may ask.  I don’t know.  Let’s find out.

White priviledge: another guilt trip from the Far left progressives to squelch out free speech and civil discourse.

Sorry, but we will still excercise our right to vote despite your guilt trips.

Reminder that if you focus on race as a determining factor of people’s character, you are a racist. 

(Note: a lot of these studies only show the abstracts as the full journals have to be paid for or require an account to view, I concede this is a limitation but it’s still a summary of the studies themselves, it’s also worth noting that this is just the tip of the iceberg and it’s always worth doing your own research as there are many more studies like these that find similar results i.e. results that show that people who are not white are disadvantaged or to put it another way, white people are advantaged or ‘privileged’ in certain ways.)

These 3 studies outline the implicit racial bias in court cases:

2011: http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/sealr35&div=30&id=&page=

2014:http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/nylr89&div=17&id=&page=

2014: http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/amcrimlr51&div=33&id=&page=

These studies outlines the implicit racial bias in health and health care:

2015: http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/full/10.2105/AJPH.2015.302903

2017: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(17)30569-X/fulltext

2017: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091743516302444

This study that uses data from 2011-2014 outlines the racial bias in police brutality:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0141854&fullSite

This study shows how wealth inequality has grown between races since the Great Recession:

http://www.tripoetry.com/BEING-BLACK/FACTS/Wealth%20inequality%20has%20widened%20along%20racial,%20ethnic%20lines%20since%20end%20of%20Great%20Recession%20%7C%20Pew%20Research%20Center.pdf

This is a pdf concerning implicit bias and how to examine it:

http://cte.virginia.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/2014-implicit-bias_pp.70-73.pdf

And the existence of some racial income disparity does not prove systematic racism. You’re confusing correlation with causation. There are confounding factors at work that affect racial income levels, such as marriage rates (which are insanely low in the black community). In fact, one of the largest determining factors of success in America is not race or even socioeconomic status, but coming from a two-parent household. 

The marriage rates of black parents was going up in the 50s and 60s, when racism was rampant and legal. So why is it so terrible now? In part, this is because of the welfare state created by Democrats. Blacks in America have become dependent on the state for prosperity, and therefore have no incentive to work hard. In fact, the welfare system incentivizes them to have more kids and to stay unwed, because they are given better benefits if they do.

And actually your police data is outdated. Modern studies have found that police are actually more afraid to shoot black suspects now, partly due to the disproportionate media backlash. 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/5/police-officers-more-hesitant-to-shoot-black-suspe/

Furthermore, if you look at statistics of police shootings, you’ll find that the proportion of black shooting victims almost perfectly line up with their rates of criminality. The idea of police bias against blacks is a myth.

Regardless of all the aforementioned factors, how does constantly bringing up the idea of white privilege help anything? What’s the game plan here? Do you want to make all white people feel guilty for something they can’t control and have no hand in? For something their ancestors may or may not have done? None of my ancestors ever owned slaves, am I still supposed to feel guilty? Whatever happened to the idea of not holding people accountable for the sins of their fathers?

No, in truth, white privilege is a concept made up by interest groups to push political agendas. It allows certain people to make points that are less than valid and would fail under scrutiny without being challenged by their peers. 

“Implicit racial bias is present in all races against every race that is not their own. And if we’re talking about an implicit bias, that is something that is completely subconscious and part of human nature, then how exactly can one solve this? If there are specific instances of racism in the world, then we can do something about them. But it is impossible to police people’s thoughts, especially ones that are totally subconscious. The only thing we can do in this instance is make it illegal to discriminate based on race, which we already have.”

I agree that implicit racial bias occurs in all races and I said as much in my initial response. Specifically examining the USA however, it has come to be that these biases have most negatively affected people who are not white.

Educating people, and being open to being educated is not ‘policing thoughts’. In presenting these sources to you, I’m not trying to police your thoughts, I’m trying to show you that white people have distinct advantages in many different areas of life in the USA, on a vast scale. What you do and think next is down to you. I personally believe to address this issue on larger scale, educating people is the way forward. For example it could be incorporating these ideas whilst training people of various professions.

“And the existence of some racial income disparity does not prove systematic racism. You’re confusing correlation with causation. There are confounding factors at work that affect racial income levels, such as marriage rates (which are insanely low in the black community). In fact, one of the largest determining factors of success in America is not race or even socioeconomic status, but coming from a two-parent household. 

The marriage rates of black parents was going up in the 50s and 60s, when racism was rampant and legal. So why is it so terrible now? In part, this is because of the welfare state created by Democrats. Blacks in America have become dependent on the state for prosperity, and therefore have no incentive to work hard. In fact, the welfare system incentivizes them to have more kids and to stay unwed, because they are given better benefits if they do.”

I agree that study in and of itself does not prove systemic racism. However I also gave you multiple other sources that stated how implicit bias is affecting other things such as health care and incarceration rates. This study outlines how disproportionate incarceration as well as ‘The War On Drugs’ accounts for much of the discrepancy in the marital habits between white people and black people:

http://www.cemfi.es/~guner/Black-White-Marriage-Gap-CGR-November2016.pdf

Additionally, you haven’t presented a source for your claim about the disparity being due to the actions of the democrats and indeed this study does not mention that as being a factor.

“And actually your police data is outdated. Modern studies have found that police are actually more afraid to shoot black suspects now, partly due to the disproportionate media backlash. 

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/jan/5/police-officers-more-hesitant-to-shoot-black-suspe/

Furthermore, if you look at statistics of police shootings, you’ll find that the proportion of black shooting victims almost perfectly line up with their rates of criminality. The idea of police bias against blacks is a myth.”

To claim your source deems mine ‘outdated’ is false and misleading. Your source from 2015, does not make an analysis of many peer-reviewed studies on actual police incidents taking place over 3 years from 2011 to 2014 irrelevant. Police officers making certain statements in unrelated interviews does not contradict the record of the actions took in that time period or the findings of the analysis of said actions.

My source explicitly states that: “There is no relationship between county-level racial bias in police shootings and crime rates (even race-specific crime rates), meaning that the racial bias observed in police shootings in this data set is not explainable as a response to local-level crime rates.” This is in direct contradiction to your claim that this bias policing occurs as a response to ‘the levels of criminality’.

There are some genuinely well-meaning police officers so it’s not unreasonable to suggest that some perhaps are more sensitive to racism and afraid to shoot black suspects like your source suggests. However this sensitivity and fear from these individuals is NOT translating into wide scale action. And this is my point, that people are claiming to not be racist and to be hyperaware of racism but the accumulative actions taken by many of those in positions of authority show there is a bias present that isn’t being addressed properly.

This study conducted earlier this year supports this idea of bias and states that evidence-based policies need to be put in place in order to mitigate for it:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1745-9133.12284/full

“Regardless of all the aforementioned factors, how does constantly bringing up the idea of white privilege help anything? What’s the game plan here? Do you want to make all white people feel guilty for something they can’t control and have no hand in? For something their ancestors may or may not have done? None of my ancestors ever owned slaves, am I still supposed to feel guilty? Whatever happened to the idea of not holding people accountable for the sins of their fathers?

No, in truth, white privilege is a concept made up by interest groups to push political agendas. It allows certain people to make points that are less than valid and would fail under scrutiny without being challenged by their peers. 

White privilege is silencing opposition, nothing more. It is a weapon of cultural Marxism used to change the accepted window of political thought in America.”

My personal goals in responding to you is to try and clarify in good faith what the scientific consensus is on racial bias. I don’t intend to be accusatory on a personal level (or indeed on any level). I don’t know you personally, I don’t know if you are what my personal opinion of a ‘good’ or a ‘bad’ person is and quite frankly, it’s not what I’m here to discuss. Again, in no way have I silenced you by presenting you this information.

I agree the concept of privilege does get discussed reductively, aggressively and unconstructively by a lot of people and a lot of media outlets from every side of the political spectrum. But that doesn’t mean the concept of ‘privilege’ i.e. ‘certain groups having specific advantages over others’ is itself is untrue in this case or that the concept itself is ‘a weapon of Cultural Marxism’ or ‘a concept made up by interest groups to push political agendas’.

Educating people, and being open to being educated is not ‘policing thoughts’. In presenting these sources to you, I’m not trying to police your thoughts, I’m trying to show you that white people have distinct advantages in many different areas of life in the USA, on a vast scale. What you do and think next is down to you. I personally believe to address this issue on larger scale, educating people is the way forward. For example it could be incorporating these ideas whilst training people of various professions.

Educating is not policing thoughts, correct, but constantly reminding people of thoughts and ideas that are beyond their control isn’t exactly helping anything. It ventures into the domain of “thought policing” when you start asking people to “Work on their white privilege”, “check their privilege”, or “try to move past implicit bias”. You’re telling them that certain thoughts and attitudes are not okay and should be aggressively repressed, which IS thought policing. If a woman had a bad experience with several men and had some implicit bias against all men, would you be telling her to control her unconscious thoughts?

I agree that study in and of itself does not prove systemic racism. However I also gave you multiple other sources that stated how implicit bias is affecting other things such as health care and incarceration rates. This study outlines how disproportionate incarceration as well as ‘The War On Drugs’ accounts for much of the discrepancy in the marital habits between white people and black people:

http://www.cemfi.es/~guner/Black-White-Marriage-Gap-CGR-November2016.pdf

Additionally, you haven’t presented a source for your claim about the disparity being due to the actions of the democrats and indeed this study does not mention that as being a factor.

I agree with you on the War on Drugs, which I am against. But another factor is the welfare system in America:

http://www.heritage.org/welfare/report/how-welfare-undermines-marriage-and-what-do-about-it

This system was started by FDR (a Democrat) and was continually expanded under Democrats. 

http://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights-in-action/bria-14-3-a-how-welfare-began-in-the-united-states.html

But regardless of whose fault it is, implicit racial bias in individuals in healthcare, police, the government, etc. does NOT constitute systematic racism or prejudice. It is almost impossible to eliminate personal biases in a single generation and this can only be achieved through cultural changes. 

All of these personal biases are mostly irrelevant, as institutionalized racism in America is illegal and is actively prosecuted. In fact, regardless of race or socioeconomic status, any poor person can become middle class in their lifetime if they follow three simple rules: 1. Graduate High School, 2. Get a Job, 3. Don’t Have Kids Out of Wedlock. That’s it.

According to a study by the Brookings Institute, 75% of poor children who followed these rules have joined the middle class, and only 2% are still in poverty. 

http://merionwest.com/2017/08/19/the-myth-of-institutional-racism/

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/three-simple-rules-poor-teens-should-follow-to-join-the-middle-class/

To claim your source deems mine ‘outdated’ is false and misleading. Your source from 2015, does not make an analysis of many peer-reviewed studies on actual police incidents taking place over 3 years from 2011 to 2014 irrelevant. Police officers making certain statements in unrelated interviews does not contradict the record of the actions took in that time period or the findings of the analysis of said actions.

My source explicitly states that: “There is no relationship between county-level racial bias in police shootings and crime rates (even race-specific crime rates), meaning that the racial bias observed in police shootings in this data set is not explainable as a response to local-level crime rates.” This is in direct contradiction to your claim that this bias policing occurs as a response to ‘the levels of criminality’.

There are some genuinely well-meaning police officers so it’s not unreasonable to suggest that some perhaps are more sensitive to racism and afraid to shoot black suspects like your source suggests. However this sensitivity and fear from these individuals is NOT translating into wide scale action. And this is my point, that people are claiming to not be racist and to be hyperaware of racism but the accumulative actions taken by many of those in positions of authority show there is a bias present that isn’t being addressed properly.

This study conducted earlier this year supports this idea of bias and states that evidence-based policies need to be put in place in order to mitigate for it:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1745-9133.12284/full

Your study does not prove this idea of “institutional prejudice” against black suspects. It contends that “the probability of being {black, unarmed, and shot by police} is about 3.49 times the probability of being {white, unarmed, and shot by police} on average.”, which does not imply racial bias. It implies that there is a higher probability of a person being black and shot by police than being white and shot by police, which says nothing about the situation or crime rates. Just because more black people get shot and are unarmed, does not mean there is some racial bias at work.

Furthermore, the study contends that there is no correlation between race-specific crime rates and increased probabilities of being unarmed and shot, but does not take into account the variance of types of crime of each race. Black people are more likely than whites to commit VIOLENT crime, which more often leads to confrontations with the police. Furthermore, the areas studied had a large, poor black population that was often compared to middle-class whites. When the socio-economic statuses of the individuals, proportions of population, and types of crime committed on average by each race are factored into the equation, you might get a more accurate picture.

There are also many studies that directly contradict the claim made by this study. For example, a study by the New Century Foundation found that “The evidence suggests that if there is police racial bias in arrests it is negligible.” 

https://www.amren.com/the-color-of-crime/

Regardless, even if individual instances of racial bias are found at local levels, it does NOT imply racial bias at the national level.

My personal goals in responding to you is to try and clarify in good faith what the scientific consensus is on racial bias. I don’t intend to be accusatory on a personal level (or indeed on any level). I don’t know you personally, I don’t know if you are what my personal opinion of a ‘good’ or a ‘bad’ person is and quite frankly, it’s not what I’m here to discuss. Again, in no way have I silenced you by presenting you this information.

I agree the concept of privilege does get discussed reductively, aggressively and unconstructively by a lot of people and a lot of media outlets from every side of the political spectrum. But that doesn’t mean the concept of ‘privilege’ i.e. ‘certain groups having specific advantages over others’ is itself is untrue in this case or that the concept itself is ‘a weapon of Cultural Marxism’ or ‘a concept made up by interest groups to push political agendas’.

White Privilege is a complex and nuanced topic and doesn’t mean white people in the USA cannot suffer immensely and endure terrible hardship. But what it does mean is that other ethnic groups are disadvantaged in many situations for not being white in the US.

While I appreciate your civil tone and rational arguments, this notion of “white privilege” being pushed is actively used to silence dissenting opinions. In your case, it seems you are simply contending that one race has an implicit advantage over another, which we could have a rational discussion about. But the original post was talking about interest groups and media outlets that use this notion to peddle overt racism against white people and try to silence any dissenting opinions based on their racial identity.

Examples: 

But you still haven’t answered my question, which is this: what is the point? What is the point of bringing this up, other than to push political and racial narratives that are factually incorrect? How does it help to point fingers and allow for one form of racism to be socially acceptable? 

It is a wonderment to some ….

This is ridiculous. Why is a black congresswoman receiving death threats supposedly proof of systematic racism, when the same thing happens to white congresspeople of all political leanings? And Trump has called plenty of people liars, it has nothing to do with race.