Conversations with Indie The lights fade up, and Manning Franks (the moderator) is sitting in a black arm chair, M Franks: Welcome to "Hip Today Tonight" true believers! I'm your esteemed host Manning Franks, and tonight we have a rather interesting melting pot of voices and ideas in the form of those who claim to be too "hip" to be defined, please welcome the great minds of Michael Azerrad, Thomas Frank, Nitsuh Abebe, Kaya Oakes, and Alissa Quart. (They walk out to a respectable applause, the rest think clapping is too mainstream so they snap. They then sit down) The first four are hipsters in their own right, each contributing to what they believe to be the best course of action "indie" needs to embrace. And then there is Alissa. She just stumbled into Jenny McCarthy and decided to write about that. (Crowd laughs) Quart: Haha, actually Manning, I saw one of those political posts that that one friend continually shares and I decided to do something about it, I know we all have one of those friends. (Crowd laughs again) M Franks: All joking aside, she is an esteemed writer and poet, so she brings a fresh perceptive to the term "indie." T Frank: That depends on your definition of "indie", Manning. If it is a corporate and mass-produced consumable then yes, she would be an expert. [Journalists and publications entities like], Time, have always been more concerned with industry boosterism and the hard, profitable facts of making credible the latest packaging of youth culture..." M Franks: Haha, well then, apparently, you all came into this with loaded guns! Anyone have a response to Frank's statement? Azerrad: Actually, yes I would like to add to that. If you don't mind me beginning this roundtable discussion on "What is Indie?" and it's subsequent evolution? MFranks: Be our guest, you have first hand knowledge of "indie" in the 80's, so tell us exactly what you define as "indie"? Azerrad: I completely respect you Ms. Quart, I have even enjoyed some articles you have written, however, "a door was opened and a small trickle of people stepped through it." "The key principle of indie rock wasn't a circumscribed musical style; it was the punk ethos of DIY, or do-it-yourself. The equation was simple: If punk was rebellious and DIY was rebellious, then doing it yourself was punk." It wasn't the style of music, it was the fact it was considered rebellious. Oakes: While I wouldn't disagree with your particular definition of "indie", most people nowadays do not see indie as a form of rebellion, that was the 80's and early 90's outlook on it. "In 2008, the term "indie" is more difficult to define than in decades past. The signifiers of indie in popular culture are multifarious and often puzzling due to their blatantly corporate ties: iPods are indie, American Apparel... is indie,... Chuck Taylor sneakers are indie, [etc]." Indie is a style now. Quart: Yes and no, indie is more of a category, one that seems to have become a blurred line, no pun intended, between the mainstream and the "insiders". But I agree with Oakes on the fact that "indie" has become a very obtainable thing, Which brings me to ask, "...What constitutes rebellion, originality, and resistance in a culture of remix? What is [a] rebellious though?" Have we really become so accepting of everything that nothing is considered out of the ordinary? T. Frank: And this is arguably why we had the purest form of "indie" during Reagen's time in office. We were regulated by the powers that be, and the true proclaimers of hip were evident. I'm sure Michael could back me up on this. Azerrad: Absolutely! Some of the best LSD I had was in the 80's! (Crowd laughs) M Franks: Nitsuh, you have been quite quiet tonight, anything you wish to interject? (Nitsuh Abebe shrugs) Abebe: "Here's the thing: "indie" has always been a baggy, contingent word, and the whole loose umbrella of stuff that gets considered "indie: has usually included huge splits and tensions. Back in the 1980s, for instance, there was a major difference between hardcore punks and... wavers, as in new wave." I'm sure my colleagues would have varying opinions on each of those styles of music. But you cannot deny the fact these were both considered indie at the same time. T. Frank: Yes, because these were both forms of rebellion during that time! As I said, it wasn't about the style, it was about the impact that the music had on a society. Oakes: AND as I previously asked, what is rebellion now? If the message of our current society is to be an "indie"vidual-" M. Frank: I see what you did there... Oakes: Thank you, I'm rather proud of the pun, but I digress, society wants us to be set apart from it, and be our own person... so are we all "indie"? Abebe: This reminds me of a quote from the movie The Incredibles, where the villain Syndrome, in his mad hope to give everybody superpowers, ominously says, "If everyone is super... no one will be." It really makes you think about the constraints of our hip culture, doesn't it? If we are all indie, is indie really a thing? M. Frank: Well this is getting deep fast, I believe it might be time for a commercial break before we bring out our philosophical thinking caps! This is "Hip Today Tonight" and we will be back with our panel after these incredibly brief and hip ads, that will try to sell you something you don't need all because the girl in the video had a pretty face and hipster glasses.