The Wyrmfyr Forge

@dewyatt @skullcat23-blog @luna-bimborina @baradorable @majingojira @thestomping-ground @movalise (and others feel free to answer!)

What do you think Laura would be like today, if she retained her earlier characterization created by KYOST, Liu, Quesada, and Gage?

What do you think her solo title would have looked like, if we didn’t have the direction change via Bendis/Hopeless/Taylor?

I already answered some of what I thought- but I am curious what others answers would be?

Would Julian and Laura have reconnected? Would Julian have simply moved on?

What would have happened with Kimura?

Would Laura have broken free of the trigger scent?

I feel like we could have eventually seen something like Taylor's rendition, albeit with a more obvious dark/troubled side that would come out more. Something that shows she's gotten comfortable enough to open up, and finds it easier to fit in with society. But she'd still internally view herself as an outsider.

If they kept her old characterization, her ditching everyone at the drop of a hat could be a feature instead of a bug. She's not dropping her supporting cast and being a bad friend; for various reasons, she thinks they're better off without her, so she's always at the ready to walk away. It'd actually be a pretty cool aspect to have that as a character trait, where she's sabotaging her own relationships and dealing with the consequences of running away.

We saw a bit of that with NYX #8, and it'd be cool to expand that to all her relationships. Even if Julian is one of the people she affected most, I'd have loved to see Mercury hopelessly fail at keeping in touch, or Pixie getting angry that one of her besties is with the Avengers kids, or Laura genuinely thinking about Surge's criticisms about her behavior.

Imagine if she didn't warm up to Gabby as easily. Like she continually pushes her away, the way Logan did with Laura. Laura thinks she's protecting Gabby, but she's actually hurting her. And Gabby would have to force her way into Laura's life and ensure that Laura can't leave her like she does everyone else.

I honestly think Cessily doesn’t talk to Laura anymore- we kind of know Laura talked shit about the NXM to Jubilee and Avengers Academy kids…

I definitely think Surge and Velocidad equally talked shit about Laura after that whole event where they were held at the school.

While I think Sooraya forgave her after it; Cessily was objectively closer to Julian and I think ultimately chose Julian’s side in the “kinda-sorta breakup” and I could see some of what Laura said to Jubes or Finesse hurting her feelings if she found out.

The idea I had for Laura and Julian's first interaction before NYX #8 would have had him outright lay into her for how she treats everyone and forcing Laura to confront it. To the effect of "X-23/Wolverine might be a great hero, but Laura Kinney is a real shit friend."

OTOH, Julian might still be holding too much of a torch to be so confrontational....

The pride specials come and gone

There was nothing

But then

Honestly that could have been way more interesting if Dante had more than just the “OOo you have Colossus muscles” type of dialogue- like having him initially set out to use David, only to develop real feelings for him and the dubious morality and ethics of it all could have been really deep?

IMO they should have just dropped the Mojo plot entirely. For one, outside of a very particular niche he's just not an interesting villain, and I'm usually just thinking, "Ugh" when he turns up.

Honestly the biggest plot blunder was undoubtedly Bilal- they introduced him immediately as a jerk, so there was zero buildup or angst over Kamala finding out… he was basically a retcon to G Willow Wilson’s run and the writers had to make Kamala’s parents more conservative than they previously were to make the plotline work…

It just derailed the whole book and instead of writing Kamala as a “stranger to the X-world and the drama of the X-kids”… it just became about shoehorning this plotline that NOBODY wanted.

Almost EVERY TIME something “tense” happened- we had to cut to BILAL. 😒

I fully agree though that the focus for the first arc SHOULD have been the quiet council and Hellion. Then they could have moved on to other plotlines.

But yeah looking back at it, this book had- Bilal, Hellion going ROGUE, Sophie spying on the team, the weird politician plotline that made zero sense, Empath and the new Quiet Council, Prodigy teaching, Prodigy getting a new boyfriend, the TikTok hate group, Kamala’s brother possibly being anti-mutant and her family as well, Kamala questioning to tell her parents, Local the false love interest, Kamala/Laura beef, Laura struggling to admit she needs people/Scratch, Kiden the real love interest, obligatory Anole Morlocks story, mourning Krakoa, Prodigy starting a new mutant/human alliance, Sophie breaking from the Cuckoos becoming a gaming addict and struggling to control her powers, obligatory Dazzler concert, Prodigy/ Hellion boss fight, the Mojo plotline kidnapping mutants and creating a new city, Laura breaking out Hellion and reconciling, useless Synch and Prodigy beef, Kamala’s friendship with Sophie, Anole and Dante bounding over feeling less useful, the weird Xavier Manhunt tie-in, AND the weird “protests work” moment. 😪

I mean… she apparently also forgot that Julian had a green telekinetic signature and was very OBLIVIOUSLY the Krakoan 🤣😭

The pride specials come and gone

There was nothing

But then

Honestly that could have been way more interesting if Dante had more than just the “OOo you have Colossus muscles” type of dialogue- like having him initially set out to use David, only to develop real feelings for him and the dubious morality and ethics of it all could have been really deep?

IMO they should have just dropped the Mojo plot entirely. For one, outside of a very particular niche he's just not an interesting villain, and I'm usually just thinking, "Ugh" when he turns up.

Honestly the biggest plot blunder was undoubtedly Bilal- they introduced him immediately as a jerk, so there was zero buildup or angst over Kamala finding out… he was basically a retcon to G Willow Wilson’s run and the writers had to make Kamala’s parents more conservative than they previously were to make the plotline work…

It just derailed the whole book and instead of writing Kamala as a “stranger to the X-world and the drama of the X-kids”… it just became about shoehorning this plotline that NOBODY wanted.

Almost EVERY TIME something “tense” happened- we had to cut to BILAL. 😒

I fully agree though that the focus for the first arc SHOULD have been the quiet council and Hellion. Then they could have moved on to other plotlines.

But yeah looking back at it, this book had- Bilal, Hellion going ROGUE, Sophie spying on the team, the weird politician plotline that made zero sense, Empath and the new Quiet Council, Prodigy teaching, Prodigy getting a new boyfriend, the TikTok hate group, Kamala’s brother possibly being anti-mutant and her family as well, Kamala questioning to tell her parents, Local the false love interest, Kamala/Laura beef, Laura struggling to admit she needs people/Scratch, Kiden the real love interest, obligatory Anole Morlocks story, mourning Krakoa, Prodigy starting a new mutant/human alliance, Sophie breaking from the Cuckoos becoming a gaming addict and struggling to control her powers, obligatory Dazzler concert, Prodigy/ Hellion boss fight, the Mojo plotline kidnapping mutants and creating a new city, Laura breaking out Hellion and reconciling, useless Synch and Prodigy beef, Kamala’s friendship with Sophie, Anole and Dante bounding over feeling less useful, the weird Xavier Manhunt tie-in, AND the weird “protests work” moment. 😪

The pride specials come and gone

There was nothing

But then

Honestly that could have been way more interesting if Dante had more than just the “OOo you have Colossus muscles” type of dialogue- like having him initially set out to use David, only to develop real feelings for him and the dubious morality and ethics of it all could have been really deep?

IMO they should have just dropped the Mojo plot entirely. For one, outside of a very particular niche he's just not an interesting villain, and I'm usually just thinking, "Ugh" when he turns up.

The pride specials come and gone

There was nothing

But then

I sent this letter to the X-Office email address recently, and after a recent conversation here I thought I'd post it here. I don't expect to hear back from Marvel at all, because that seems to be their response to criticism these days, but here it is.

---

This is something that I've been watching build since at least Avengers vs. X-Men, and while it's mostly about the X-Books I've seen it from the other offices as well. It's a sense that Editorial is frankly notlistening to their readers. And I don't think this is an exaggeration, but it's reflected in the sales as well.

Sales for the X-Books have been troubling since From the Ashes began. X-Men were historically one of Marvel's strongest performers, but since FtA began the lineup has been getting beaten up on the sales rankings charts not just by other Marvel properties, but by DC and even Image. Characters whose books have historically sold well such as X-23 are now dropped out of the Top 50, if not the Top 100. It's certainly hard to get a true sense of how books are performing since actual sales numbers have been withheld for some time, but there's an inference to be made when the Top 50 was formally dominated by the X-line, but now we're lucky to see 3 - 4 X-books in that range.

There can be a lot of factors involved, but I think one that is continually being overlooked, whether it's just an oversight or outright refusal to acknowledge the situation, is Editorial not actually listening to what their readers are saying.

I first really noticed this trend during Jordan White's tenure. White's at times trollish response to fans contributed a sense that he really didn't care about the readers' interests. This is exacerbated by a questionable view on the makeup of the fanbase. Editors like White and Brevoort seem to be operating under illusion that the core readership is still made upf of teenagers. This has led to the "Perpetual 20s" of the Original Five, where Cyclops, Jean, Bobby, and Warren are never allowed to age older than their 20s because readers would find them "unrelatable." This extends beyond just the X-Office, with Spider-Man being an excellent example; Despite constant fan pressure about bringing back the Spider-Marriage and undoing One More Day, Editorial continues to double down on the idea that their readers couldn't relate to Peter having a happy and healthy marriage. The reality is that the average reader age has increased over time. Younger audiences are faced with more competition from other sources of entertainment, and it's now people in their 30s and 40s who are the core readership. And yet we're not supposed to find older characters relatable?

And this ties back into feelings, as a fan, of not being heard or listened to. For example, in her recent X-Men Monday Q&A with AitP, Jody Houser was asked about the appearance of Laura's friends from Academy X, characters that fans have been asking to see more of since AvX (and Jordan White even acknowledged they were in high demand!) especially in regards to revisiting Laura's friendships with Mercury and Dust, only to answer that there were no plans for them to appear at all. Hellion specifically received multiple inquiries during that same Q&A; in fact for years he has been one of, if not the, leading question-drivers on Laura's books because it's a relationship many fans are still widely invested in, and want to see developments like NYX #8 and Laura Kinney: Wolverine #7 meaningfully followed up on. The fact that this can be asked again and again and again and again and yet nothing actually be done with it leads to a sense of alienation and that fans' interests are not being considered.

Art is certainly subjective, and artists need some freedom to tell the story they wish to tell, but when it's also media intended for consumption there comes a point where not listening to readers becomes negligent in what the books are meant to be. Instead, readers are met with patronizing sarcasm, (White) disregard, (Brevoort) or outright hostility (Lowe).

It's an incredibly frustrating experience when it seems that editorial is only willing to acknowledge feedback that promotes what they want to believe. This is most evident when viewing the letters columns. Looking back through back issues in the 80s and 90s I'm often astonished at just how nasty some of the letters were that were not only printed, but even responded to! Yet that provided a sense that concerns were actually being heard. Now I seldom see meaningful criticism in the letter columns, and almost exclusively praise and cheerleading as if there is no such criticism at all.

But it’s still better than nothing!

If you’re interested writing TO Marvel- [email protected] ([email protected] for fans pissed off about “One More Day”)

Also if you haven’t- try sharing and signing the petition; I haven’t updated it to include NYX or anything recent… but it still might help?

@dewyatt @skullcat23-blog @luna-bimborina @baradorable @majingojira @thestomping-ground @movalise (and others feel free to answer!)

What do you think Laura would be like today, if she retained her earlier characterization created by KYOST, Liu, Quesada, and Gage?

What do you think her solo title would have looked like, if we didn’t have the direction change via Bendis/Hopeless/Taylor?

I already answered some of what I thought- but I am curious what others answers would be?

Would Julian and Laura have reconnected? Would Julian have simply moved on?

What would have happened with Kimura?

Would Laura have broken free of the trigger scent?

I think the OG tone would continue BUT it would ultimately phase out and transform into what Taylor wrote in ANW.

Its possible that a Julian/Laura reconciliation COULD have happened, but it would all depend on the writer. So far I would say that the majority of Laura's solo writer's haven't been too keen on it or indifferent. Again it would also depend on if a writer wanted to do something with Julian at the time.

The Trigger Scent was going to go sooner or later IMO. As that is kinda of a big hurdle for Laura to clear. I do think it should have been ongoing psychic therapy as opposed to Jean just going "Poof! I fixed it...suck it Emma"

I feel like Laura fans started dropping off during the Taylor era- while it definitely brought in new fans, a lot of hardcore KYOST fans lost interest.

Since then, I feel like fans of the Taylor, Liu and KYOST eras have been steadily dropping off more and more.

I at least felt like the recent “NYX” run was “closure” on the Babysitters arc and frankly a good place to end for me. It came to a point where I realized this year that I don’t like Laura’s modern characterization that much, I know at this point they will never give us Hellix, and the runs after Taylor have been pretty mediocre.

I’ll still read the old books but unless things change drastically - I’m probably not bothering to keep up with the modern solos.

@dewyatt @skullcat23-blog @luna-bimborina @baradorable @majingojira @thestomping-ground @movalise (and others feel free to answer!)

What do you think Laura would be like today, if she retained her earlier characterization created by KYOST, Liu, Quesada, and Gage?

What do you think her solo title would have looked like, if we didn’t have the direction change via Bendis/Hopeless/Taylor?

I already answered some of what I thought- but I am curious what others answers would be?

Would Julian and Laura have reconnected? Would Julian have simply moved on?

What would have happened with Kimura?

Would Laura have broken free of the trigger scent?

I think the OG tone would continue BUT it would ultimately phase out and transform into what Taylor wrote in ANW.

Its possible that a Julian/Laura reconciliation COULD have happened, but it would all depend on the writer. So far I would say that the majority of Laura's solo writer's haven't been too keen on it or indifferent. Again it would also depend on if a writer wanted to do something with Julian at the time.

The Trigger Scent was going to go sooner or later IMO. As that is kinda of a big hurdle for Laura to clear. I do think it should have been ongoing psychic therapy as opposed to Jean just going "Poof! I fixed it...suck it Emma"

@dewyatt @skullcat23-blog @luna-bimborina @baradorable @majingojira @thestomping-ground @movalise (and others feel free to answer!)

What do you think Laura would be like today, if she retained her earlier characterization created by KYOST, Liu, Quesada, and Gage?

What do you think her solo title would have looked like, if we didn’t have the direction change via Bendis/Hopeless/Taylor?

I already answered some of what I thought- but I am curious what others answers would be?

Would Julian and Laura have reconnected? Would Julian have simply moved on?

What would have happened with Kimura?

Would Laura have broken free of the trigger scent?

I think the OG tone would continue BUT it would ultimately phase out and transform into what Taylor wrote in ANW.

Its possible that a Julian/Laura reconciliation COULD have happened, but it would all depend on the writer. So far I would say that the majority of Laura's solo writer's haven't been too keen on it or indifferent. Again it would also depend on if a writer wanted to do something with Julian at the time.

The Trigger Scent was going to go sooner or later IMO. As that is kinda of a big hurdle for Laura to clear. I do think it should have been ongoing psychic therapy as opposed to Jean just going "Poof! I fixed it...suck it Emma"

Emma never got to see what was happening in Laura’s head when she was under the effects, but Kimura kindly provided a sample for them to work with.

Hellion (Julian Keller) profile

Hellion (Julian Keller) profile

Hellion (Julian Keller) profile

Look i'm not saying Laura and Julian should take over and rule Madripoor....BUT NYC is already SUPER crowded with heroes and Julian is probably still a wanted criminal....

so Madripoor might be a nice getaway for a while

I would KILL for this book right now LOL 😭😭😭

I totally forgot a new issue was even dropping this Wednesday until someone messaged me spoilers….

(possible SPOILER ahead!)

Please tell me they didn’t bring back Kimura! Please tell me Marvel has not scraped the bottom of the barrel of Laura plotlines that that’s all they can creatively think to do….🫢

As someone guessed, Centipede Lady has...some part of Kimura, but she isn't like a clone or a resurrection. It's not very clear what they did. She also doesn't last long; Laura makes pretty short work of her.

Laura's writing is as good as before, and we get some great moments of her speed and agility on display.

Infinite turned on her as predicted, though he's not actually working with the Facility, and is taking the "extremist" approach to trying to save the others.

The biggest surprise is X-80.

They're pulling the "time traveler is dead, but that just means an earlier version pops back up later on" thing. Or it's some weird quantum mechanics shenanigans where X-80 can exist at multiple points in her timeline all at once so she's Schrodinger's Chimaera and both alive and dead at the same time.

I still think that the story itself is fine, and is enjoyable in a vaccum. It's well-paced, Laura's writing is strong, and the Generated are conceptually interesting characters. The core problem is Marvel has already relied so much on clones and chimaeras both recently and in general with Laura, and they've introduced too many characters across multiple series all at once (though to be fair, that's the same thing Academy X did, basically creating an entire student body).

But honestly that’s my biggest problem with this book in general- all of it feels unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

All the characters feel like copies of better characters/stories. All the art is filled with nostalgia “Don’t you remember this scene” wink/wink.

There’s just nothing to get excited or care about. It’s in some ways worse than Tamaki’s run or even Schultz, in that at least there was SOMETHING to get intrigued by in those books.

I totally forgot a new issue was even dropping this Wednesday until someone messaged me spoilers….

(possible SPOILER ahead!)

Please tell me they didn’t bring back Kimura! Please tell me Marvel has not scraped the bottom of the barrel of Laura plotlines that that’s all they can creatively think to do….🫢

As someone guessed, Centipede Lady has...some part of Kimura, but she isn't like a clone or a resurrection. It's not very clear what they did. She also doesn't last long; Laura makes pretty short work of her.

Laura's writing is as good as before, and we get some great moments of her speed and agility on display.

Infinite turned on her as predicted, though he's not actually working with the Facility, and is taking the "extremist" approach to trying to save the others.

The biggest surprise is X-80.

They're pulling the "time traveler is dead, but that just means an earlier version pops back up later on" thing. Or it's some weird quantum mechanics shenanigans where X-80 can exist at multiple points in her timeline all at once so she's Schrodinger's Chimaera and both alive and dead at the same time.

I still think that the story itself is fine, and is enjoyable in a vaccum. It's well-paced, Laura's writing is strong, and the Generated are conceptually interesting characters. The core problem is Marvel has already relied so much on clones and chimaeras both recently and in general with Laura, and they've introduced too many characters across multiple series all at once (though to be fair, that's the same thing Academy X did, basically creating an entire student body).