A place to state your gripes common toh criticisms

Basically, the way TOH handles redemption arcs is overly simplistic-a character starts out antagonistic, but it turns out they were really manipulated by a cardboard cutout villain and actually a sweet person all along. It seems a character is only "worthy" of sympathy if they were never bad in the first place. It's a concept that could work, but feels lazy when applied to several different characters.

When we look at the major redeemed villains Lilith, Amity and Hunter, they all follow this pattern. Lilith is introduced as strict and austere with an intimidating presence and dresses in all black, Amity is aloof, haughty and a bully and Hunter is cocky, but after being redeemed and joining the good guy's side they drop these characteristics and are revealed to have a nerdy side, becoming more similar to Luz.

Lilith becomes the Cool Aunt, Amity becomes Luz' caring girlfriend and Hunter becomes the "resident whump character". This would be like if Zuko lost his fiery temper and sullenness and become a cheerful goofball just like Aang.

While I understand a point being made that once these characters are freed from their toxic influence (2/3 are Belos, and the other is Odalia) they gain the freedom to embrace themselves, so the changes post-redemption provide a stark contrast to their antagonistic selves, but I still think it sucks that characters like Lilith and Amity lost their unique personality traits in favor of becoming broadly "nice".

Another point from the critique I'm referring to is that with the exception of Lilith, none of the former antagonists go through a "redemption arc" because they don't make up for their previous actions. I don't know if I agree with this broadly, but as for Amity I think it might have a point; she didn't properly atone for bullying Willow, and she did it out of her own free will because Odalia had only demanded she ended their friendship, not any bullying.

"Nice" isn't synonymous with good and I would love to see that represented in media.

Thanks for your ask. This is something I've pondered quite a bit. There are many reasons why I personally disagree with a lot of this.

1. For lilith, she never really does become that nice after her redemption. She spends most of Echos of the Past unamused at the others' hijinks, trying to prove herself right and being harsh towards luz and King. In yesterday's lie, she crushes King's hope of his father coming back. She's still harsh in her personality.

2. For hunter, I don't really think he loses his cokyness, it's just either ignored or not recognised by most viewers. Like how in thanks to them he brags about his pain tolerance (before being hurt and wincing before he can finish his sentence) confidentiality showing off his cosplay. (And although it's before his true redemption, any sport in a storm is always pointed out as an episode where he's acting out if character, but in that episode he's about the cokyiest he ever is, imposing his point of veiw as truth and assuming he knows what's best for the emerald entrails before he tries to make things right)

3. For amity, I do think she did change the most in personality (although she still has moments of harshness, like judging hunterfor his costume choices), which I don't see as that much of an issue given the others don't do that as much as people seem to think and because when she is like that, she seems miserable. She spends most of her time disconnected from everyone around her. She's lonely, and as a result, she doesn't really care about how nice she is, and she's rewarded by her peers (and probably parents too) for being mean so that's what she does. For her, I feel like becoming more nice is a result of her having real friends, and because of that, learning to be mindful of others and becoming more like them.

From the start, Amity is introduced as someone who once tried to get Luz dissected to protect her reputation. Yes, she changes, but she never fully apologizes to Willow either—one of the clearest signs that she’s not ready to own her harm. Meanwhile, Luz tends to ignore her other friendships once Amity becomes her focus, suggesting she’s caught up more in the idea of a perfect romance than in mutual support. Their relationship often feels like it’s fast-forwarded by external validation rather than slow, mutual understanding. It’s a dynamic where Amity places Luz on a pedestal, and Luz seeks comfort without really addressing her deeper issues. That’s not growth—that’s codependency dressed up in pastel. Let's also not forget that Luz keeps on lying to Amity and any time there is any conflict in their relationship, nothing happens with it.

1. The adult principle was the one who brought the knife in and brought up dissection. Amity just reported trespassing and cheating, and even then, since he gave the knife to Willow, it was more likely than not that this was a ploy to try and make them confess.

2. Literally saying the exact word sorry isn't the only way to apologise, she in my opinion, did something stronger than that by admitting her wrongdoings and acknowledging that while she can't undo them, she can at least try to stop other people for also doing wrong to willow.

3. I don't think we can know that she ignores her other friendships, I just think the show doesn't focus on them that much and while it's disappointing that we don't get to see the friendships more, I don't think it means they don't exist.

4. I'm not sure what you mean by the middle section, and I don't want to accidentally talk about the wrong parts of the show, so I'd rather not at all

Or she has her own Villain arc in some different fashion or something.

People seem to inherently forget what makes up good characters sometimes. I find it very funny when people are like ‘xy isn’t good rep because they aren’t stated to be and show no signs of it’ when like. Are you saying someone has to look like a certain way just to represent those people? Does the character have to flaunt that information? People find out some of the best things about characters outside of canon from their creators. That doesn’t make them bad rep, it makes you bad at making headcanons. (I mean, not you in particular, but people in general. This is mostly going out to the other people who are bringing in mostly irrelevant points to this convo)

It’s like saying, “You’re not good lesbian rep!” for a specific character I have because she doesn’t ever outright say she’s a lesbian or date any women. You wouldn’t know it from looking at her, but that’s not ‘bad rep’, especially since there are several other queer people in the story with her (Cough, like TOH) [alright maybe that’s not the best example considering 3/4 the characters are either bi, trans, ace, gay or some combination but still]. She’s not ‘bad rep’ because she’s not obvious. If that doesn’t apply to other queer characters, even ones besides mine, why should it apply to Lilith?

Now this one goes out to the anon complaining about the ADHD argument, actually (you can skip this op)- her symptoms could actually apply to several different disorders, so that’s actually a generalization of neurodivergence by stating that lol. I’ve seen some people say they could see her as more bipolar or even autistic without ever mentioning her having ADHD. She’s not bad ADHD rep but saying everyone would automatically assume she has ADHD, even if they have it, is false. I didn’t piece that together. A lot of people I know didn’t. A lot of fans I’ve talked to online didn’t know either. Doesn’t mean she’s bad rep for it. I would literally never have known if Dana hadn’t confirmed it to be canon. Idk I just thought she was a neurotypical person lmao. Sincerely, someone who is more likely than not ADHD (I’m still waiting for the assessment results. It’s been like 6 months so idk where tf they are. But I’ve been unofficially diagnosed by several friends and some adults who have it) But anyways that one’s not directed at you, that one’s for the somewhat rude anon. Again, you can ignore this if you like.

Back to my original point. There’s a difference between saying “This character needs to reaffirm people that are similar to them” and “This character is good representation”. You’re arguing apples and knives. The two are not mutually exclusive, even though they can go together. (For example, off the top of my head I think of Nicole from class of 09. Is she good rep? Absolutely not. She’s a monster. Absolutely horrible person. Is it clear that she’s a lesbian, and is somewhat decent at reaffirming people’s sexualities? Hell yes. Side note tho screw SBN03 he sucks. We all know she’s canonically gay even if he says otherwise because literally no straight person is written like that and they never will be) Neither is the defining factor of the other.

Not to say you don’t have good points for why she doesn’t immediately reaffirm people who are aroace- I get that. That’s 100% right. Say it louder for the people in the back. but. That alone doesn’t define whether she’s good rep. I think what people are trying to explain to you is that you’re right- you’re just right about the wrong thing.

Sincerely, your friendly neighborhood @tohtakesthecake (I do character analysis on Tuesdays /j)

1. I still never said bad rep. I said it's not good. I can feel in no way at all represented by her. Would the owl house be considered great rep if lumity never got together or were even attracted to each other? We just heard later offscreen that they weren't straight? They'd likely be seen as neutral or, at worst, just an attempt to reel queer people in to get money out of them. Would you think it's right if there were never any showing of homo or bi sexuality a good thing if that's still considered good rep. No same gendered relationships or attraction. Nothing. She's not bad because she's not harmful. She's a decent character, but I'm not going to call someone who is confirmed outside of the show good representation. AroAce-ness is rare, and I'm not going to settle calling doing nothing good. Doing something to show it is good and properly exploring it is great. Using harmful tropes is bad, and never focusing on it is completely neutral. I'm not going to pat someone on the back for doing nothing.

2. These characters aren't real people. It's not like telling a person they're not good enough this is a cartoon where we can easily show her perspective but they don't.

3. You saying that people who can't tell are bad at headcanons while also saying that actually having to represent them is saying they have to "look a certain way" is ironic because you're basically saying people should be able to tell and headcanon it based on nothing but vibes

4. 1. Luz is autistic (which I, too, was diagnosed for) and has ADHD. 2. Even if people never knew she was ADHD people can still relate to her symptoms and themes. At least, that's something at all in the representation department to actually relate to besides literally nothing. It represents people even if they don't know it does by showing her symptoms as an acceptable, celebrateable part of her. It may not represent everyone with the condition because sometimes symptoms present differently but it still represents the people who present like her.

Also I know you've probably gotten a lot of messages like this already but please take care of your mental health, I've seen two previous blogs like this before that had to quit due all the toxicity they kept getting in their asks. I hope you're able to have a good time discussing this show we've all collectively decided to not move on from.

1. Sure , I would like to read it.

I don't think Owl House is a perfect show, there are a ton of valid criticisms and unvalid criticisms, but these blogs just attract the most petty, pedantic and bad faith posters who are just trying to get in arguments.

Apologies if it feels that way, I have been making individual posts not started by annos less because I'm honestly tired most of the time. I'm planning more in the future, but not now as this was taxing. I only did the Nuh-Uh thing once for a comedic effect as they gave me nothing of value to counter and to signal to them or other askers to provide depth. They just said a thing with no explanation, most of my posts are paragraphs in length writing against what I disagree with them. For the criticism, I'm sorry if it felt like it was clogging up too much, I felt the need to respond and regale my version of the truth because it felt important to me and I can't respond to those without posting, much like this post, and on that note everyone has bias, and I can't see how mine is particularly stronger than the average person's implicit bias.

I don’t think I stated that Lilith showing no attraction automatically meant she’s aroace - but maybe I didn’t word what I said very well. It could be an indicator, at the very least. So no, I don’t think it was ‘wrong’ for me to say that, just that I probably should have tried to word it better.

Also - from what I can recall from the show specifically, you CAN’T tell that Luz is bi, that Eda is bi, that Hunter is bi, that Willow is pan, that Raine is nonbinary, that Collector uses he/they pronouns aside from, say, the bi sticker on Eda’s cheat box, the bi flag patch on Hunter’s shirt/jacket, or the bi and lesbian heart stickers for Luz and Amity, respectively in the photo album which is in season 3. You can hear Raine referred to with only they/them pronouns, sure, but using those pronouns doesn’t automatically mean someone is nonbinary. Same for Collector - we don’t even know their gender, just that they use he/they pronouns.

Actually, now that I’m really thinking about it, I think Luz really was the only character that got explicit confirmation as being bi and that was in that slideshow she made, which was also shown in season 3. Before that, especially if no one knew of her being confirmed outside the show, people might have thought she was pan or something. So if we want to go with the argument of ‘if it wasn’t stated explicitly in the show, it’s not good rep’ then by that logic, Luz would be considered the only ‘good’ rep.

Hi so let me start off by saying I’m gay, aroace, and trans. Moving on - yes actually, I am saying that. Gay/trans people can sometimes tell if someone else is gay/trans, and ‘stereotyping’ isn’t all inherently negative, look it up. Girl did the limp wrist motion and plenty of people thought she was gay from that alone. So yeah, sometimes people CAN tell a character isn’t straight and I think Lilith is one of those characters. I personally always thought she was either lesbian, aro, ace, or some combination, and turns out I was right about some of it.

With the amount of people who erase Lilith’s identity to ship her - and this seems to only (or mostly) happen so she can be shipped with men, mind you, I personally have NEVER seen someone do this to ship her with a woman, but the amount of times I’ve seen this done with men is honestly ridiculous and disgusting (and would be if it was done with a woman, too, before anyone tries to misread anything) - yeah, I DO think it’s stupid to think she’s straight because this is the only thing I’ve ever seen happen with people who DO think she is or know about her identity and erase it anyway.

I don’t trust anyone who thinks she’s straight or attracted to men at all, and I’m very tired of ‘straight’ being seen as the default or that ‘oh, this conventionally attractive woman HAS to be attracted to men’. In fact, the ships I have seen people have had with her and other women were ones I saw that got dropped when she WAS confirmed aroace with no interest. Yet to this day, people are still shipping her with men despite knowing her being aroace and, once again, with no interest. Straightphobia isn’t a thing but my god, these people really test me, especially because this behavior is just downright aphobic and disgusting. End rant.

1. Stereotyping is still bad. And don't you assume everyone can tell other people in their groups? I'm aroace too. I couldn't.

2. She's probably not shipped with women because she doesn't really have positive interactions with any girls other than children and people she's related to. Of course, she wasn't shipped with women much? They still shouldn't do it after she was confirmed or knew about her orientations, but that probably explains why.

What the anon saying that Lilith showing no romantic interest in the show means she's aroace just feels... wrong. There's plenty of reasons for an allo character to not show romantic or sexual interest in the span of a show; circumstances, simply not being a character written with a romance in mind, no time to reach planned romances due to show being cut... allo people are allowed to be single. Otherwise every character who doesn't have romantic feelings shown in their actions would be aroace. That just feels... weird to me.

A character simply not having romantic interest shown during the show's runtime will never be enough to be aroace rep on its own, because aroace people are not the only ones who don't have romances.

If someone told me Lilith is straight, I wouldn't instantly go "but she has no romantic interest in anyone in the show." Neither does Gus, but a lot of people headcanon him as gay or bi. Neither does Boscha but a lot of people are going on about her liking Amity - myself included. Neither does Viney, or Emira, or Skara... yet they're often shipped. Not having romantic plotlines does not mean a character is aroace.

On that one random comment on "who thinks Lilith's straight" from an anon... are you implying you can tell by how a character looks or behaves whether or not they're straight? Let's not go back to stereotyping, okay?

Idk. I guess I'm just annoyed that the rep is saying a character is something and doing nothing to show it. That's not how we normalize things, we normalize things by showing them. Lilith and Eda could have had banter about Lumity and young love, with Lilith saying she doesn't get romance and Eda commenting she never has.

They didn't even give Lilith the same hinting of hiding bi flag colors in scenes as Eda and Luz got. Like... the show could do that for bi characters, they definitely could have done it for other characters.

"Show don't tell" is a rule of writing and showmaking for a reason

And finally on that one anon talking about how people not in the fandom aren't gonna know things... yeah, duh. But I'm deeply in the fandom, have been for years. I would have never known Lilith is aroace unless it was stated outside of the show. THAT'S what I'm frustrated with.

I can tell Luz is bi, I can tell Amity's a lesbian, I can tell Raine is nonbinary. I can tell The Collector uses he/they pronouns, I see a lot of neurodivergent behavior in Luz and Hunter. But I could not see MYSELF in the show until I heard it on Twitter. That's what's annoying. The crew does an amazing job of showing so many things without it feeling forced or having to flat out say it... so why can't aroace characters get the same?

Sorry I'm rambling lol, it's annoying how some people can't handle someone saying "I feel like the representation of people like me could've been done better" without going "WeLl iF yOu FeeL LikE tHaT TheN Luz Is nOt ADHD-"

Like. Bro. When did I say I wanted the show to go "Lilith is aroace, she doesn't do romance, weewoo weewoo representation"

Maybe disingenuous wasn’t the right word, but you seemed very hostile in your response which seems unwarranted.

Maybe better wording could be ‘I don’t feel it’s accurate / true / etc’ to that effect to say just because she wasn’t confirmed in show that doesn’t necessarily make her ‘bad’ representation.

First off, I am sorry if I sounded hostile, I have some social difficulty even in real life so it may have sounded worse in text, I just wanted to assert I was being honest and I'm not a liar because that is important to me. Apologies if it came across as rude.

I personally think the show handled redemption arcs like Hunter’s and Lilith’s fairly well overall, but I also feel they were a bit rushed (mainly Lilith), especially considering how serious some of their past actions were. That said, I’m still pretty happy with where they ended up. As for Belos, I honestly, wasn’t very satisfied with how things ended for him.

I don’t necessarily think Belos deserved a redemption arc—he was clearly a villain who caused immense harm and was rooted in a very specific type of fanaticism—but I do wish the show had explored his backstory more in-depth. We got little glimpses of who Philip Wittebane was, especially through the time travel episodes and Hunter’s arc, but it felt like the show only scratched the surface. Understanding why he became so consumed by his ideology—his fear of witches, his twisted worldview, even his relationship with his brother—could’ve added way more depth to his character. It wouldn’t have excused anything, but it would’ve made his downfall more impactful.

In the end, Belos just felt a bit too one-note, especially compared to how nuanced characters like Lilith and Hunter became. His final moments were more about a satisfying defeat than any sort of emotional resolution, which I get, but it also left me wanting more. If the show had taken time to really dig into his past and what drove his obsession with control and purity, it could’ve made his role as the central antagonist feel less like a symbol and more like a fully realized person.

That said, I totally understand that the creators didn’t have the time to flesh out everything they probably wanted to. With the show being cut short, there just weren’t enough episodes to fully explore every character arc, backstory, and plot thread. And in that sense, I don’t blame the writers—I just wish they’d had more room to let the story breathe, especially with such a complex antagonist like Belos.

1. I've said before, and I'll say it again, lilith didn't really have a redemption arc persay. The consequences of her actions fell upon her, and she had to act quickly to undo her mistakes and accept consequences. She leaves her old life behind and bears the curse instead of trying to avoid social and physical consequences by having belos heal her. Her redemption isn't an arc. It's a set of actions and moments, and I honestly think that's fine and not everything has to work the same way

2. I wouldn't say we should have to redeem belos if he was just a child abuser, let alone a mass murdering, genocidal, child abuser.