Career Forum

You’ve just been through a warzone to get your offer: 53 interviews, 3 weekend trips to New York, and so much time spent staring at Excel that you’ve developed a monitor tan.

But things worked out, you accepted your offer, and you’re about to start work in 2 weeks.

You just need to make it through thetraining program first.

But that should be the easiest part of the entire process, right? Right?

Does This Really Matter?

When I first got questions about training programs, I was confused: it seemed like a topic that didn’t warrant much advice.

“It would be about as stimulating as all those suggestions over the years to create a recommended reading list,” I thought.

But then I sat down to think about it in more detail and started asking around, and realized that there might be some important and not-so-obvious points to make.

Why Training Programs?

They’re a combination of marketing and education: banks pride themselves on offering “the best training” – even though banks use the same companies to train you – and they want to get people from non-finance backgrounds up to speed quickly.

Beyond just teaching you about accounting, valuation, and finance, lots of banks bring in speakers from different groups and use them to introduce you to their culture and how things work.

For some inexplicable reason, a few banks really like to tout their training programs and use them as a selling point when interviewing candidates, which might just be the strangest recruiting tactic ever.

No one joins Goldman Sachs because their training program is so great – they join because of the name “Goldman Sachs.” Their training program could disappear tomorrow and it wouldn’t matter.

The “education” from these programs is most helpful if you’re not from a finance background.

You will indeed have a tough time at first if you know little about accounting, valuation, and finance – but then it would also be difficult to get an offer these days without knowing those topics to begin with.

Even if you are completely new to finance, training programs are still not that helpful because different groups have different standards and it can be hard to focus when everyone is talking to each other and chatting online.

So don’t stress too much over all the content – there are more pressing concerns during training, beyond just getting enough bottles every night.

What is a “Training Program”?

Right before you start working, the bank will fly you and all the other incoming analysts and associates to New York or London (or wherever your bank is based) and spend 1-2 months “training” you.

Translation: You get to spend each weekday in a crowded room learning all about Excel, accounting, valuation, and finance from outside training firms and occasionally internal speakers from the bank.

You follow along on your screen as they instruct you, and you keep Facebook and Gmail open so you can chat with everyone else about how bored you are and how the instructor has a receding hairline.

You may also get tests and case studies to complete, and group exercises similar to what you find at assessment centers.

Sometimes banks also determine group selection during training, but most of the time it happens well before that – either at your sell day, or as part of the interview process itself.

You’re not working banking hours during this time – weekends are mostly free and you rarely stay late at night, which is the first and last time that will happen as long as you work in the industry.

If you’re going into an internship rather than a full-time job, you’ll get just a week-long crash-course rather than the 1-2 months that full-timers get.

Many boutique banks don’t offer training programs at all because it’s beyond their budget – you’re also not likely to go through training at private equity firms or hedge funds, because they’re small and they expect you to know everything you need once you start working.

If you’re going into sales & trading or another non-IB area at a bank, you’ll probably have some type of training as well but the material will be different and it might be shorter.

As you’ve probably guessed by now, the 2 most important words in everything I’ve written above are “crowded room.”

If you’re not meeting other people and networking during training, you’re wasting your time.

So How Do You Approach Training?

Ask most bankers about what to do during your training program, and you’ll get 1 of 2 responses:

“Just get drunk every night! Party! It’s the best part of the analyst/associate program.”

“Study hard and take all the homework assignments and case studies seriously! Oh, and if you don’t pass those exams, you’re screwed.” (This one usually comes from students who aren’t even in the industry yet)

Neither one of these is quite right.

On #1, yes, you should go out and have fun since this will be one of your last chances to do so in the next few years.

But you need to be strategic about how you do it and also make sure you meet the right people in the process.

On #2, despite rumors to the contrary, most of the work they give you does not matterthat much. Just do reasonably well and pass what you need to pass – it’s almost irrelevant next to your deal experience in your first year.

But I Heard This Person Got Kicked Out for Slacking Off!!!

Most of these rumors are greatly exaggerated. Yes, if you do something incredibly stupid – kidnap the Managing Director’s son, start drinking at work, etc. – you might be removed from training, but that hardly ever happens.

If you already have your group placement, homework assignments and tests during training aren’t important – the senior bankers at your office don’t have time to read the details of what you did and then change your group based on that.

If you’re really concerned about not knowing enough or being disadvantaged next to everyone else there, learn some material before training starts.

If you’re reading this site you’re probably a Type-A overachiever anyway.

Just dust those off and start going through all the material and you can doze off during training and still do well.

OK, So Then What About Networking – What Do You Mean by “Make Sure You Meet the Right People”?

Going out and getting bottles every night is almost a good idea, but there are a few problems:

You won’t have much money yet since you just started and may not even get a paycheck until training ends.

It’s more helpful to know people in different offices and different groupsinstead of always hanging out with the same crowd.

Let’s say it’s 2 AM, you’re working on a pitch book for an industrials company, and you need to include a case study of a deal the Chicago office did but you don’t know where the files are.

If you don’t know anyone there, you’d be screwed – yes, you could just email the entire office and ask for someone to help you, but everyone is busy with their own fire drills and deadlines so they may ignore you.

But if someone sees your name and recognizes you from training, you’re in much better shape and you might actually get the answer you need.

It’s almost impossible to get to know people from every group and every office, so focus on 5-10 analysts/associates.

Get some geographic diversity (if you’re in the US, know people in a few different cities and also a few in Europe and Asia) and industry diversity (if you’re in an M&A group, get to know people in industry groups and also ECM and DCM).

Doing this is not difficult and I would feel silly writing a “guide.”

Each day there are plenty of breaks, and most banks throw lots of events and parties during training – take advantage of these and go up to meet new people there.

Just think of it as a big information session, only without seasoned bankers. And it’s even easier than information sessions because you have an enforced time limit and everyone else is new and wants to meet others.

Does It Really Help?

The main problem is the high turnover rate in finance – by the end of your first year, at least 50% of your incoming analysts/associates will be gone.

So it won’t help you forever, but it doesn’t matter too much because your first year is the most critical anyway – do well at first and you’ll get better work and better exit opportunities, and do poorly at first and you’ll get the MDs laughing at you and bottom-tier bonus.

It’s not a question of life-or-death, but it will save you some headaches and possibly let you get 6 hours of sleep rather than 4 hours – at least on some nights.

In Short…

So do what you need to pass everything and learn the material, but don’t take any of it too seriously at the expense of meeting other people.

If you’re concerned about not knowing enough when you start working, start preparing beforehand and learn as much as possible from classes or training programs.

And make sure you find out about your office and who makes decisions there before you start working as well.

Get to know 5-10 people well so you have contacts in other groups and other geographies when you need something and no one else in your office can help.

It’s tempting to befriend only the incoming bankers in your own office or your own group, but that defeats the purpose of training: you want to spread your net wide and meet people from all over.

Even back in the dark ages (in Internet time, 2-3 years ago) one of the most asked questions here was “OK, but how do I get a summer internship in the first place?”

And since then I’ve gotten many more questions on the timing for summer internship recruiting, how it’s different from full-time recruiting, what to focus on, and what happens when – so let’s get to it.

Who?

I’m assuming that you’re an undergraduate or MBA – or that you’re graduating but are starting a Master’s program right afterward.

Summer internships are only available if you’re in school.

Yes, you could still apply if you’re graduating or you’ve already graduated but that has a very low success rate, especially at large banks.

You don’t have to be at a “target” school, but you will have to rely heavily on networking if you’re not. You are at more of a disadvantage at the MBA level if you’re not from a top school, because there are fewer spots available and the competition is much savvier.

“Internship” is just another word for an 8-10 week interview at a bank: if you pass, you get a return offer at the end. And if you don’t, you don’t get a return offer and have to look elsewhere for full-time work.

You perform tasks similar to what full-time analysts and associates do, but you’re always supporting them and you’re given more grunt work since you don’t know anything.

It’s different in sales & trading because you’re not allowed to trade as an intern, so it’s more of a shadowing experience there.

Why?

Summer internships are important because having one will dramatically increase your chances of getting full-time interviews and offers.

If the economy is bad, you might not even have a shot at full-time interviews if you haven’t had an internship – and many bulge bracket banks fill their entire analyst classes with summer interns.

Even if the market is frothy, an internship still gives you a big advantage, and even more importantly, gives you more options than someone without an internship.

When Do You Get an Internship?

I’ve been writing “summer internships” throughout, but banks do occasionally offer autumn, winter, and spring options as well – more so in Europe than the US.

But the other internships are not much different aside from timing and summer internships are the most common ones, so we’ll focus on those.

Recruiting begins in December or January and concludes sometime in February. The internship itself starts in June and finishes in August, lasting anywhere between 8 to 10 weeks.

Before you reply and say that you heard of a friend who interned longer or shorter than that or someone who did not follow that exact timing, yes, there are exceptions and the sentences above just give approximate guidelines.

Some banks may finish later – especially boutique and middle-market firms – and sometimes recruiting starts in November, especially outside the US.

Prep Time?

More important than the specific dates is when you should start networking and preparing for recruiting.

A long time ago when I interviewed readers who broke into banking from non-target schools (no, that special offer is no longer active because the courses were released a long time ago), most of them reported starting 6 months in advance.

They networked through the summer and started with weekend trips in the fall before interviews began in the winter.

If you haven’t already done all that and recruiting is underway, it’s not the end of the world – although you will have to approach things differently

How to Get a Summer Internship

Summer internship recruiting is not dramatically different from full-time recruiting – you still get in via networking, having a solid resume, and then acing your interviews.

But there are some differences and special considerations:

Networking

Ideally you will have started at least a few months in advance with contacting alumni, setting up informational interviews, and figuring out your story.

This is more necessary if you’re at a non-target school than if you’re at a top school and already have a competitive profile: networking always helps, but if you have perfect grades and 2 internships at Goldman Sachs you will get (at least some) interviews anyway.

If you have time to start in advance, you know the drill: start with informational interviews over the summer, continue with weekend trips in the fall leading up to recruiting season and make your “ask” just before interviews begin.

If you have not started in advance and this is a last-minute effort, here are some tactics to try:

Go to all the information sessions you can – these are held right before the application deadline, so you still have a shot even at the last-minute.

If you’re at a non-target school, go to another school’s information sessions and sneak in if you can get away with it. Don’t kidnap someone and steal his/her student ID, but see if you can “borrow” a friend’s or otherwise talk your way in if security is tight. Some bankers frown on this, but others will be impressed that you were hungry enough to get in.

Look up alumni on LinkedIn or in your alumni database and still set up informational interviews – but be more direct and ask how you can position yourself for a formal interview at the end of each conversation.

Cold-call aggressively – this works better at boutiques and you should do it only if you have no other options and/or you made it through recruiting season without any offers.

It’s not ideal to start networking at the last-minute, but it is slightly less of a deal-breaker than if you went into full-time recruiting with minimal networking.

And if you already started months in advance, you’re well ahead of the game because most aspiring bankers don’t read this site and are still going to information sessions asking what it’s like being an investment banker.

Technical Questions

The “bar” for technical questions is definitely higher than it was in, say, the 2000-2005 period.

Back then, you might have gotten in with little technical knowledge, but these days you pretty much have to know accounting, valuation, and how to answer basic questions such as how changes to line items affect the 3 statements.

And often you’ll get asked a lot more than that – it is not unheard of to get questions on merger models, LBO models, and so on even if you haven’t had banking experience and are going for summer internships.

Generally you will not get as difficult questions if you don’t have a finance background and haven’t had previous internships, but there are no guarantees.

You may get overwhelmed if you try to cram in everything at the last-minute, so this is another area where you want to start prepping at least a few weeks to a month in advance.

Undergraduate vs. MBA Differences

There aren’t many: networking and interviews are similar, and your resume may look different but the basic idea is the same.

The key difference is that bankers expect more polish if you’re at the MBA-level: they know that you’re good at BSing and talking your way into situations if you’ve made it that far, so they will ask more probing questions.

An undergraduate might get away with a generic answer for the “Why investment banking?” question, but you will not: they will ask more detailed questions to see whether you’re being relatively truthful or you’re just good at making stuff up on the spot.

Everyone else will also be networking, since that’s arguably the true purpose of business school – so you need to get started before you even arrive on campus.

Technical questions in interviews may also take the form of case studies – whether written or informal discussions – more often at this level.

Instead of asking how to value a company or the trade-offs of the different methodologies, bankers may ask about a specific company and walk through an imaginary scenario where someone else wants to acquire them, and then frame all the valuation questions in that context.

Offers

Good news travels quickly: if you get an offer, you’ll probably hear back right away. If you don’t get an offer or you’re on the wait list, you won’t.

And yes, before you start panicking, there are exceptions and banks don’t always do this.

If you get an exploding offer, you pretty much have to accept it unless you have another offer lined up.

For internships it is much better to take something – even if it’s at a boutique or middle-market bank – than to turn it down and take a chance on getting an offer at a much larger bank.

Even with a lesser-known bank on your resume, you’ll still get interviews at bulge bracket banks for full-time recruiting – so the risk of not accepting an offer outweighs the potential upside of waiting and taking a chance on a better offer.

You could renege on your summer offer but that has its own set of risks.

And for summer internships it is arguably more risky than with full-time recruiting, because you may have to interview once again after your internship – if someone remembers that you reneged on an offer, that’s bad news for you.

Plan B Options

What if you go through recruiting and end up with no summer internship offers?

Get as close to banking as possible – outside of PE/HF/VC the best options are probably corporate finance/development and wealth/asset management.

The back office is not necessarily the kiss of death as it is for full-time work, but it is a step below client-facing / revenue-generating options.

If nothing on that list works for you, start your own project, your own student club or investment fund, or something similar.

Whatever you do, don’t just sit around or only take classes or study for exams and certifications because you’ll put yourself at an even bigger disadvantage.

And don’t even think about the Best Buy option.

I'm assuming you are still in your undergraduate program. Although there isn't any specific requirement to break into investment banking, there are some pre-requisites: 

You should be great at numbers

You should have strong networking skills

You should belong to a target school. I'm planning to write a separate article on this. A target school's students are recruited heavily by the investment bank. You might not find many target schools in the college rankings at all so look up each bank's website and see where they recruit.

You'd do fine if you fulfill any 2 of the above conditions. You might hear stories about a certain guy with History major from UPenn getting into JP Morgan. The more prestigious your college is, the higher are your chances to get into banking. However, you will always have an edge over others if you study something on the quantitative side including: Finance, Eco&Math, and Engineering. Networking is a must. You have to be persistent, and set up meetings with various bankers (alumni, friends, family) to demonstrate your interest. Who knows your uncle's best friend's son's father-in-law's brother turns out to be a Managing Director at Goldman Sachs? Yes, it can get you an interview if you work out the connections right. You should be aware of the two different types of jobs in Investment Banking. The nature of the job and rigor to get into each of them varies greatly:

Front-office (positions which bring in revenue to the investment bank)

Back-office (positions which run the bank itself such as IT, Financial Control, and Risk)

Front-office jobs require you to work for 100hrs/week on average, while Back-office jobs stick to strict 9-to-5 format.

I am not sure which region you're targeting so I recommend you to go through our COUNTRY PROFILES.

Go to Country Profiles for prospects: http://careerforum.tumblr.com/country-profiles

We will be adding other countries to the list pretty soon. 

You have these career options:

Analytical Chemist

Clinical Biochemist

Forensic Scientist

Research Scientist

Chemical Development Engineer

Toxicologist

CFA is useless if you want to pursue Investment Banking as your career. CFA might prove to be useful if you're in either of these 3 Divisions:

Sales and Trading 

Portfolio Management

Equity Research

2+1 Programs are quite popular in South-east Asian nations these days. I am guessing that you are located in Pakistan at the moment. You targets should be clear - you should know what you want to do after your graduation. ACCA comes under Accounting (B.Sc Applied Accounting awarded by Oxford Brookes University) and BBA is a business degree. I am not familiar with universities in Malaysia except a few major ones.

Insurance companies put a higher emphasis on those 'papers' you're talking about. Your degree will allow you to either:

 gain exemptions for the first few papers, allowing you to get an entry-level job.

 prepare you for the first few papers by replicating the course content so you could pass them easily just after your graduation.

The job outlook in biotechnology depends on the region you're targeting. For USA, you have a good chance of securing a job because of the growing interest by the companies to invest in multi-billion dollar projects. I'd say you should look up for jobs in Hong Kong and Singapore too. If you are an international student in USA, your major (STEM - Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) allows you to work upto 29 months during/after your studies unlike your peers with other majors who'd have upto 12 months to work.

Petroleum Engineer applies technical skills and knowledge to solve engineering challenges. Petroleum engineers acquire expertise in a wide range of areas, including petrophysics; drilling and product operations; reservoir engineering; production geology; production technology; and field development economics.