I have seen many opinions on Jon being irrelevant to the story, people calling him bland, boring, not at all compelling compared to the other POVs, a Mary Sue character, and GRRM trying too hard to make readers relate to him. Like, what? How is Jon a plot armor character? All of them are Dany fans, obviously. I think they seem to ignore that two things can be true: that Dany and Bran are the ones most in tune with their magical sides, and that Jon has the most magical blood (First Men plus Valyrian blood) in the ASOIAF series.
Some are stating him as just a self-insert of GRRM with no real purpose, because GRRM calls Jon the only character close to the classical fantasy hero and has said he wants to be Jon if he had the opportunity to be any character from the series. But he loves Sam. George has said this many times, that he is Samwell in real life. You can like two characters at the same time. Him being a dragonseed does not take away Dany's importance, her right, and claim, which is not even what the story is about. Also there is no singular hero of the story.
She is AA/Tptwp since that's all that matters. It will be really funny when the prophecies turn out to be irrelevant, and given that George is very anti-war, the ln will likely end with a pact. The ending is very bittersweet, so if you think either of the two main POV characters, Dany and Jon, get any happiness, you are dead wrong. I am sure Jon will die at the end of the series since he is already undead. Not sure about Dany's ending. Also, what is with this obsession with him being the villain post resurrection? Yes, him being a bit darker and morally grey is inevitable, but him turning evil just to improve Dany's PR screams insecurity and jealousy. If asked why his arc will do a complete 180 and he will become a villain, they have no proper answer. LSH and BD were not wargs, and Beric was not evil, so their examples do not work. The night's king and Paul Arteries comparison theory are too much of a reach it fits Stannis and even Dany for the PA trope well since Jon do not fall into any category. He is not a chosen one or linked to any prophesy.
It has been eight years since the last season and the Dany vs. Jon discourse is so tiring. The series did irreparable damage to Jon's PR. Making up false scenarios and writing essays about why he is irrelevant to help you sleep at night will not change the story. The books will never be concluded. Even if TWOW comes out, the lore of the ln, the Starks, the Others, and the children of forest is too complicated. You could write an entire series about that. Jon is the only pov that will tell us the story of others and their what their deal is. People also forget that dragons did not exist during the first ln. In the books it is very clearly implied dragons do not like crossing the walls like they are scared and they were grown ass dragons let's see how dragon react to others in the future books if they are ever released if they are helpful at all.
Sorry for the rant u can ignore the ask if u want and no I am not misogynistic or dany hater since that's the go to response of most Dany fans you guys have to understand not having Dany as ur fav character is not the end of the world. If u read this series and assume this series is only made for her and think she is above the series and everything is about her and every other character is irrelevant and are plot armor then I do not know what delusion u are living in. U should read other series and not have a mental breakdown if someone disagrees with ur opinion.
um...this is a lot but maybe this is twt discourse cause i deleted a couple of weeks ago but i think Jon is meant to be a typical fantasy hero for a bit but gets much more complicated later on, i think he's a very easy character for audiences to root for/relate to and gets extra magical/political feats every book at an extreme speed rate so that's why he's seen as a typical gary stue, the show didnt help by stripping away all his complexity and grey moments where we we see a couple of red flags from his behaviour that'll make his character a lot more complicated than "doing the right thing" this doesnt mean he'll be straight up evil just more brutal/selfish/cunning ect you know like the grey characters grrm likes to writeđ his character will be in a tunnel of darkness before he can get back up to that light and yes ive said that he's most likely to die as most undead characters or ppl who defy the natural rules of nature are to experience a final death eventually.
this fandom's obsession with trying to think this huge prophecy is straight up not filled with double meanings is what kills any proper discussions on character motivations. You are meant to question if Azor ahai is actually legit or a good thing ive said multiple times that dany/jon and stannis all are meant as characters to examine what prophecy does to both people and the "prophet saviours" for now stannis is wholeheartedly a person trying to emulate that vision so badly but if anything he's turned into a night's king figure, jon has no idea about any of this stuff but his fate is probably going to emulate SOME stuff from this but not as literally as he's probably going to have a following of freefolk and Nightswatch men once he comes back from death by Mel(someone's whos probs gonna push him to be known as azor ahai), Dany has the most symbolism towards this with Drogon essentially being her lightbringer and her being the leader of the dothraki and many other groups before her invasion into westeros, she's also guided by many religious leaders(future) and her own faith as the blood of the dragon,mother of dragons,the last targaryen, thats like her whole thing in ADWD final chapters.
Dany is very interesting to talk about i just think its difficult to do this when a) george writes a lot of unfortunate things to her that has deal with her being a girl that seems very unrelenting that he doesnt do or cannot do with men which includes sexualization, rape and sexual assault and all the politics that comes with that when analyzing her character vs what he thinks of her when writting b) fandom and media is very misogynistic towards female characters, if george wants to write a female version of achilles/conan/Elric/anakin or byronic tragic female hero thats great but her character has so many things that would be ruled as misogynistic and outdated if she does die like in the show i CANNOT do another wolverine stabbing jean grey type shit in this day and age like pls spare me, ik fans can be overzealous but i don't blame them if such an ending happens with her,it would be a let down not to mention there's a lot of hypocrisy with stannis/jon vs dany.
After reading And Seven Times Never Kill Man! it makes me think George put a lot of his ideas on religious propaganda/fanaticism with prophets/gods and saviours in asoiaf and thats shown with all the different types of prophetic saviours that are seen in the text, its either split in different aspects are most of them come from the same bloody sacrificial source for some big plan (see bloodraven ragnarok theories) and its most likely come TWOW and ADOS a lot more horrible devastation is to come from it , like yes grrm is romantic he also just likes characters being doomed by prophecy or characters fulfilling these in different ways(see the ghost highheart and maggy the frog's prophecies). Like just looking at stuff he's cowritten like Elden ring has a lot of stuff like this characters wanting to be gods or avoiding there faiths sometimes completely fail (ppl were VERY angry about miquella) or end with the worlds being fundamentally changed but in asoiaf its very much "power lies where men believe it does".
I dont believe that grrm is gonna make it that simple of dragons burning the others/avengers endgaming the series like he's said MULTIPLE times he does not like that stuff nor are the others mindless hordes of orcs that heroes will beat with swords and hammers...the wights maybe?considering the immortality death stuff but yea i already believe Bran is most likely to know wtf is up with the others, maybe Jon would have have to deal with way more stuff with humanity like the actual consequences of winter/starvation/cannibalism/lack of the sun/ and the politics of the northern chaos thats bound to happen eventually by ADOS, idk how the dragons would be apart of this considering they cant cross the wall unless the wall crashes at the end of TWOW but i always thought her invasion would start south just like aegon the conqueror did which she's most likely to follow(crownlands to the riverlands ect) maybe in an opposite way even like it really depends where she or the rest actually lands first (there's theories of tyrion burning the vale or killing robin but i don't really know if that would happen) .
in the final lines of And Seven Times Never Kill Man! there's legit a sequence where ppl burn there provisions because they believe there god says they'll be no winter if they sacrifice there children and that there prophet will come so there's no need to worry when that god just feeds on the endless cycle of violence so that shit SCARES me when thinking about the long night and the azor ahai prophecy or the old gods and stuff ,what i hope happens is that the characters can look past that stuff instead of being warrior prophets they can actually look down and find solutions that doesn't feed into cycles of violence for the ppl .
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