Sketched out one more study of Ascended Astarion based on the first one ✍️

No one should feel bad for ascending him. You shouldn't dismiss other people's trauma over him (it's bullshit that there are people who thinks you are a 'fake survivor' just because you like a different ending for a vampire) You paid $60 for bg3 and by god it is your rights to ascend him 100 times if you wish. No one should mock or berate other people's Durge/Tav story with Ascendant Astarion

No one needs to hear "I hope you understand that this is actually a bad—" BG3 fans are adults, we dont need strangers online to hand holding us

When we simp over evil character like lady Dimistrescu, Orin, .... we know they are evil, we understand what it actually implies having a relationship with that type of ppl.

The thing where it becomes dangerous when it comes to the ascended version of the romance path, is that those ppl lack the understanding that this is an evil path, it's his bad ending. To the point, they are harassing Neil because he did once something that kinda showed he disagreed with those ascension apologists.

1. Is obvious

2. If you see a dude keep repeating that Rey or Captain Marvel are Mary Sue and how strong female protagonist is a feminist propaganda then you can tell they are a misogynist. Same thing with factions morality/perks debates

3. Things like fanfic, self indulgence theory, fetish, personal perspectives about a FAVORITE Chara, it's no fair to judge someone's morality from something that can be very deeply personal and indulgences (or maybe they don't see it as a big deal anyway)

The conversation about how people 'play' (how they simp for him, how they write him, how they draw him, or even how they sees him) with Astarion belong with tier 3. Which is the bottom tier. The most detached tier from people's true morality

Also I haven't seen a single AA fans who say that ascension is not an evil act or doesn't turn him evil.

Most people keep saying that Ascendant Astarion is STILL capable of loving Durge/Tav because of annoying people who won't stop being snarky and saying that Ascendant Astarion is incapable of love and thus his fans are "stupid and delusional"or even "likes abuse and actually condoning abuse"

Also nobody said that Astarion doesn't change in a way that he became more evil than before, people acknowledge that. But just because he became more evil doesn't mean EVERYTHING about Astarion completely change or destroyed by the ritual

There are people who already don't like AA anyway and they keep insisting to his fans that Astarion is essentially "dead" or destroyed after the ritual and we are 'delusional' for liking him. The newest interview even stated that Astarion is still Astarion when he ascend. At the end it was his decision

The argument of ascension as a good ending is not even saying that it is a morally good ending but it is good for Astarion FROM HIS OWN PERSPECTIVE (and by that point Astarion doesn't care about morality or the people he sacrificed, so he doesn't see any downside) because he got so many perks like immunity to sunlight, money, running water, hunger for blood, got new powers, and Cazador died. And it's good for Tav/Durge who is power hungry/evil or wanted to work with him because their goal is aligned. Profitable but not morally good

An evil ending that is only good for Astarion and a Consort/Ally who is aligned with him but not for everyone else in Baldur's Gate

Also it's depends on the route/RP/story

If you don't like Ascension then it is bad ending, of you want Astarion to be nicer then it's a bad ending, if your Tav/Durge doesn't align with Ascended Astarion then it's a bad ending. If your goal is to ascend him or you like ascension ending or your Tav/Durge alligned and wanted Astarion to ascend then ascension is still evil but not necessarily a bad ending like Astarion turned into sacrificial zombie

If your Tav is a lawful good person then their romance with ascendant astarion is a bad ending, but my Tav is an enabler and unhinged yandere anyway, it was HIM who keep pushing Astarion to ascend. Astarion's objectively bad ending that can be applied to any universe, any perspective and any Tav/Durge is him dying and Cazador turned him into a zombie for the Ascension ritual

No one should feel bad for ascending him. You shouldn't dismiss other people's trauma over him (it's bullshit that there are people who thinks you are a 'fake survivor' just because you like a different ending for a vampire) You paid $60 for bg3 and by god it is your rights to ascend him 100 times if you wish. No one should mock or berate other people's Durge/Tav story with Ascendant Astarion

No one needs to hear "I hope you understand that this is actually a bad—" BG3 fans are adults, we dont need strangers online to hand holding us

This doesn't even mention the amount of people who won't stop posting snark making fun of ascendant fans as 'delusional' or 'not understanding abuse in their life' the unpleasant anon ask and even one of my friends in discord said that someone said to them "You are not a real asexual because we knew the reason behind why you are ascending astarion, you are just horny."

No one should feel bad for ascending him. You shouldn't dismiss other people's trauma over him (it's bullshit that there are people who thinks you are a 'fake survivor' just because you like a different ending for a vampire) You paid $60 god bg3 and by god it is your rights to ascend him 100 times if you wish. No one should mock or berate other people's Durge/Tav story with Ascendant Astarion

No one needs to hear "I hope you understand that this is actually a bad—" BG3 fans are adults, we dont need strangers online to hand holding us

No one should feel bad for ascending him. You shouldn't dismiss other people's trauma over him (it's bullshit that there are people who thinks you are a 'fake survivor' just because you like a different ending for a vampire) You paid $60 god bg3 and by god it is your rights to ascend him 100 times if you wish. No one should mock or berate other people's Durge/Tav story with Ascendant Astarion

No one needs to hear "I hope you understand that this is actually a bad—" BG3 fans are adults, we dont need strangers online to hand holding us

Imagine now this instead:

Imagine being so self-absorbed that you have to actually go find the moment this happened in the stream, screen shot it and use it online to belittle others. Is that a kink of yours? Did you feel pleasure in doing this? Do explain the process to me. Does it bring you joy to make a post like this where the only aim is trying to call others bad? Do you think you have any right to do this? What drove this, other than some wicked desire to prove you are better than others? What's your personal accomplishment here?

Imagine also being so mentally detached that you fight every day to protect a bunch of pixels, a pretty image with a code attached to it. Since when has it become okay to protect and defend something that doesn't ultimately exist, while choosing instead to hurt and belittle actual human beings who exist? Puts this under a completely different light, doesn't it? At least it should. If it doesn't for you, well then you should rethink your priorities maybe...

Imagine also being a writer (we all know who) who preaches how bad it was that she wasn't able to detach herself from thinking and obsessing over pixel boyfriends instead of real life people and tried to prove how bad this was, but then at the same time empowers people to obsess over what happens to the pixel boyfriend more instead of focusing on the way they are behaving towards other fellow fans or considering how other real people might feel by reading her spiteful comments. That's quite funny? Didn't she say it was bad to obsess over a character to begin with because it made her unable to see real people for what they were? Ah. Why behave the exact opposite then? Has she learned nothing?

Imagine being the same, self-entitled writer with protagonist mania ("some kind of superstar" as per her description) who thinks she has the right to offend others.

Imagine being the same writer, who wrote something (not really sure she wrote any of this but she sure loves to gloat that she did, over and over and over and over), only to then decide to call out all of the people who enjoyed what was written, and admitting she wrote it to punish them... like she's some fucking justicar or something. She must love the power this gives her... Ah, to be that plain minded to think that only her reasoning is valid, and all the other people should suck it up. But.. she's just 24 after all - unprofessional and inexperienced with the world, with no understanding of social interactions or of what can hurt others. It can't be helped I guess.. Let her ride the popularity train till it lasts. She will need to live in this world for at least another 10 years and grow up a bit more to understand what is acceptable and what isn't acceptable to do and say as a professional AND as a human being. So far, none of this is professional, and fomenting people and spreading hate is not only unprofessional but frankly disgusting. It goes as saying "If you have nothing good to say, don't say anything at all".

Now, this next part is going to be really painful to write for me... Specially on a day like today. I really hoped it never would have come to this, and it makes me want to cry in a way. If only I hadn't tuned in that night for the stream, I could have gone on blissfully unaware... But here we are.

Imagine being an actor who acts different roles, good or evil. Who does it beautifully, and deserves all the praise and awards and respect in the world for it. Who also seems like a wonderful human being irl, supportive of many beautiful causes and charities. But then, doing something like this. I don't know what happened there. Maybe it's some kind of nightmare and I will wake up. Or maybe he was tired since he's overworking. But regardless.. It's just the exact same as what the writer did - punishing someone for liking something different. Something they both have worked to bring to life. Except well, the writer is barely out of her teenager years... But Neil. Neil is a grown up adult man, who should know better. He's perfectly entitled to say Ascended Astarion isn't for him, we all have different tastes... but he should still be professional and detached about it. Giving the judging stare to those who like Ascended is none of that - it's super partes...and it empowers people to continue to bully us. People like you, who take his reaction and use it to belittle others, feeling justified and excused for this type of behaviour. Not only! It's actually an offense to your own acting skills even, since you're the one who played him and should be proud of every aspect of the character you played. So what, those actors who played evil roles in movies and such should now go and judge those who like their evil characters? It's also an offense to who wrote that part of the story. And it's in its way quite mean towards those in the fandom who actually liked that path. Hells, he really should know better than this... And this is what pains me the most - there were a million ways to respond to that request: acting the part (acting, what an actor does), making a silly joke about it, play along, just recite any line, whatever you want. Literally ANYTHING BUT judgement would have worked fine.

And, the fact that it happened in his stream.

Imagine being a streaming page that repeats at the beginning of the each stream, so basically now every day, how they are an inclusive place for EVERYONE, where everyone can feel safe and at home, and where judgement or belittling or offending is not allowed and has no space, but then actually letting literally all of these unfold right there for everybody to see. What went wrong? Were the mods asleep or having coffee, or secretly complacent? Did they think any of this is acceptable in any way? The mods who went to hell and beyond to moderate useless things such as spoilers for Adirak's whipping... But did absolutely ZERO moderating when the offense and laughs and belittlement over the person who asked for that quote happened. Not one. Nobody lifted a finger. Nobody gave a single shit about that person, a human being, or their feelings. There was only laughing and judging in chat. How despicable. So... I'm guessing even a place like Neil's stream is not as safe as it claims to be. Or maybe it's only safe towards people who think the same as the mods and chat? Then please don't call it inclusive. It's very very partial and uninclusive if so.

And what hurt me the most... Imagine how horrible the person who went to work every single day, who knows, maybe for hours, doing overtime, sacrificing other important priorities, just to afford this signing must have felt. They were probably shattered. We don't even know them, and if or what they have suffered in life. All they wanted was a sweet cameo from the person they admired, and instead, they got shat on and laughed at in public.

I feel for them so much, and I wish I could hug them, and send this horrible feeling away. I understand they might want to remain anonymous after this, and don't know but if you, unfortunate person who asked for that signature, will ever read this, and happen to feel like it, please, write to me. If there's nobody there supporting you or being nice to you, I'll be that person. Leave the bullies and abusers alone. There are people out there who will listen and accept you. We may not be the loud majority (as you see, it's extremely hard to be when you will immediately be attacked if you but dare try to express yourself), but we are there. Rejected and outcast, but we do exist. I'd like to be your friend if that's okay.

Moving on... Imagine now how all the people who asked for an ascended quote must feel now. Not that you guys care or ever will, obviously, you only care about your little selves and are incapable of accepting of others, but... For the first time since the streaming signings started, I am actually afraid to watch. Yesterday I had dread and anxiety rising because well, I paid, and not a small amount, let's be honest. So I should endure and watch. But I couldn't. I kept it on, because watching the stream had become a thing I enjoy doing in the evening and apparently I am reluctant to give it up somehow, so I decided to force myself to watch regardless. But I watched without audio, and without looking at the chat. Not sure why even, because I couldn't get myself to turn my head towards the screen. I don't need to be hurt by random entitled people on the web.

Eventually I will have my quote signed. It's an ascended quote, so I guess I must expect the ugly laughs and judging and belittlement again... Is this what we deserve? To be laughed at by fellow players? By people who should claim being supportive of each other? What have we done to you to deserve this, offended your pixel boyfriend? What's my sin exactly, having an evil fantasy for once in my life? Do I need to burn at the stake for this? Explain, please.

My quote is very tame regardless, so maybe it won't be an issue. But imagine those people who have been asking for a bit more intense quotes from Ascended, how horrible they must feel. Maybe before, the idea of getting a favorite quote and signature brought them happiness and excitement, but instead now it kinda feels like walking towards the gallows to be offed. I know a few people who are feeling as bad if not worse as I am now... Like actually stressed about this. I guess I can convince myself that if anything else falls, I will have donated part of that money to charity, but if I knew it was going to go down this path, it would have been better to directly offer the 120 bucks to some homeless person in the street.

As of now, watching the signing doesn't bring me joy anymore, and I don't know if it will again. I'd rather not, if there's going to be obvious preferences or classification like this. I really didn't want it to get to this point, I hoped that even if places like twitter and reddit and Tumblr are filled with people frothing at their mouth when they get to talk fellow fans down or belittle them, at least in the streams there would be impartiality. If not, they could have called them "Signings but only if you don't ascend Astarion, otherwise you're not welcome, don't bother". Because of this, it really just feels like a soulless paid transaction now, nothing more. Might as well not even watch anymore if I watching means I need to shield myself from attacks and snickering and judging. Might as well not post anything on social media anymore if the comments are going to be like this and you people like to group up and bully us. I'm even scared to open reddit because of the things that may have been replied to me there. Things like "Oh no, you don't get to play the victim here". But I actually am feeling like one. I haven't checked reddit in 2 weeks because of that - apparently just saying "he looks cute here" in an ascended video earned me a whopping -100 downvotes. Wow. I guess I'm not allowed to find him cute. Apparently admitting to ascending Astarion so far has also earned me and many others the following titles:

-deluded

-illiterate

-abuser irl

-enjoys being abused irl

-unloved

-wrong

-bad

-monster

-defective brain

-doesn't understand the character

-evil (hello? Evilness exists in this game. Why aren't people bullying players who go the evil path with other characters? Making a Sharran Shadowheart or Vlaakith devoted Lae'zel? Giving Gale the crown? Becoming a Bhaalist? I see no judgement there. Why is it only this damn entitled community???)

And again, what have I done to deserve this? Do these people who spit these judgements here and there know me? My life story and whether or not I suffered in life? No. They don't. I'm a good person, I respect everyone's opinion at all times, don't go looking for trouble, respect the law thoroughly, help whenever possible, have never hurt a damn being unless seriously provoked, act kindly towards people in general, and generally always try to see eye to eye/keep in the gray instead of seeing everything as black or white. If I like an evil path in a fantasy game or fictional book, am I automatically all of the above offenses irl? Grow up, please.. Astarion doesn't exist, nobody is hurting or dooming or "destroying" anyone's soul. And certainly none of the people who pick this path would do anything remotely similar in real life. Games are there to make us experience things and situations we can't experience in life. Are you actually for real?? You do know there are wars in the world right now, and actual real people suffering and dying? You're triggered because I "hurt" a bunch of pixels? The only people I see hurting real people's feelings, are you guys.

So much for inclusion - this is just another variant of cyber bullying. Judging others is not automatically better because you people think you're in the right, it's still bullying. And using the force of number and the fact that you're a majority vs a minority makes this even more repulsing.

Cherry on the cake.. Imagine now saying you are a trauma survivor (apparently 70% or more of the people who ascend Astarion say they are) and that playing his path is all about "breaking the cycle of abuse bla bla". It would be very noble and great, and I would respect them very much.... if only it were true!!! Is that how you break your cycles of abuse? By buddying up and finding targets you can spit all the vitriol and hate you have inside at? Are you positive that's "healing"? Abusing and belittling someone you strongly disagree with is not "healing" in any manner. You blame Ascended Astarion for becoming an abuser, then go out and abuse others who ascend him. Can you not, I don't know, be adults about it and accept that we all think differently and enjoy fiction in different way?

And what about the ascended fans who also suffered trauma? Are they undeserving of support? Only the unascended trauma survivors should be welcomed? Sickening, is what this is.

If you can't, don't go preaching about inclusion because this is absolutely ridiculous and distasteful and 100% uninclusive. We should be friends and enjoy the character together without judgment.. But people who write and share and applaud posts such as this, or the idiotic claims from Welch that she is "punishing" readers, effectually driving this divide more deep every day, are the true Cazadors here. And just as Cazador, as entitled and monstrous as he is.

Maybe think on that. If you can ever think impartially that is, and feel for us people who get driven away and outcast by your actions and are forced to enjoy the game alone, or in small groups, scared or unable because of this to interact. Who maybe would like to go to a convention but they don't have the courage to because they'd become fresh meat for your rabid throats if they revealed their preferences. Or who aren't brave or strong enough to say how they feel online. Bet y'all are enjoying it up there, laughing at them from your privileged positions. Sad it had to come to this.

I would have liked to join everyone in watching the awards stream and celebrate Neil's nomination with everybody today.. But I don't know. I just didn't feel like it, and I hate this. Thanks for making our life miserable.

And before someone replies "boo stop being a victim", maybe consider my words for once.

Also on a side note, in dnd 5e rules as written if your character becomes a vampire spawn you lose agency over them and they become an npc, so that’s with that.

It doesn't matter at all if someone thinks he is good, sweet, loving, and so on. They may think that's what he is for their character. It's their game. Leave people alone. Do not confuse reality with fiction, and do not think that others are confused. You automatically think player's character is unhappy in a relationship with Ascended Astarion, just because "A Astarion is an abuser". But no, it's not like that for everyone. And I repeat, it really depends on how you play and what kind of character you play. I'm sure if we were Astarion's puppet, it would be visible in the epilogue. And this is not visible, because there is an answer option where our character is absolutely happy with everything. Six months is a decent time for them to have any conflict.

I did not know that I have to admit things to people like them to approve of me over something I enjoy? What if I don't think it is an evil ending? For me, he's a spoiled princess, and I'll be his prince charming. We will live happily ever after.

Go do something productive instead. If you are so worried about people getting out of abusive relationships, go and join an actual support program or charity. People can enjoy stuff in the safety of their homes and do not need to justify their thinking to entlitled people like you.

Honestly, I'm so tired of people not respecting each other's opinions over a course of a game. They want to play the evil power couple? Perfect. They want to play the abused victim. Go ahead. They want to play the happy vampire obsessed lovers. Please do!

You want to play the I can fix him and he will forever be grateful to me. Suit yourself!

Also on a side note, in dnd 5e rules as written if your character becomes a vampire spawn you lose agency over them and they become an npc, so that’s with that.

It doesn't matter at all if someone thinks he is good, sweet, loving, and so on. They may think that's what he is for their character. It's their game. Leave people alone. Do not confuse reality with fiction, and do not think that others are confused. You automatically think player's character is unhappy in a relationship with Ascended Astarion, just because "A Astarion is an abuser". But no, it's not like that for everyone. And I repeat, it really depends on how you play and what kind of character you play. I'm sure if we were Astarion's puppet, it would be visible in the epilogue. And this is not visible, because there is an answer option where our character is absolutely happy with everything. Six months is a decent time for them to have any conflict.

Please understand that there are abuse victims who actually like the ascended path. Yep. You read that right. Just ask them.

So what, they are still victims. Are they not deserving of your understanding? Are you going to gatekeep them because they deal with abuse in a way you don't like? Are they not worthy of having an opinion just like you, instead of being called "poor" "deluded" "probably haven't overcome their trauma" "pathetic" bla bla and all' the insults I've read over and over and over? You don't even know them. You don't know what they suffered and never will, so keep the judgement to yourselves and let them be.

Otherwise you'll be the "abuse support community who only accepts some abused and not some others".

how people to choose to play a game is not indicative of their morals and beliefs.

how people to choose to play a game is not indicative of their morals and beliefs.

how people to choose to play a game is not indicative of their morals and beliefs.

"but even the writers/va's are telling you xyz is bad!!!"

okay lol but its still a game and i paid for it and if i want to hc that so and so is not actually an asshole™ then i will bc thats just the way hcs and fandoms work

Hello everyone. I know this is a touchy topic but nevertheless, hear me out. This analysis aims to depict a different PoV on ascended Astarion compared to the common idea of him being sexualised or him turning into Cazador 2.0. Instead, I found that he very much appears like someone in a codependent relationship. There will be spoilers for his entire story as well as some more infos on Cazador, I'll also be referencing 5e rules and Strahd von Zarovich.

THIS WILL ALSO INCLUDE THE NEW EPILOGUE AND A SHAMELESS PLUG AT THE END.

Before we start, hi, I'm just another random Internet person. I've found the game by sheer accident and quickly grew fond of that odd guy that laughed bitterly at the prospect of turning into a monster.

I'm no licensed therapist, no social worker, no health care staff. Simply yet, another broken bunch of pixels and all my insights stem from research and the things I've learned in therapy or experiences in my life. This whole thing was sparked by a writers comment that came to my attention, as well as the realisation that just because they said so, it doesn't mean that everyone thinks like that. I for one dont and I feel like I'm not alone, yet this notion often gets drowned in the majority, or simply because people, for whatever reason they may have, dont feel comfortable speaking up. So I ask of you to be kind, at the end of the day we all have the same reason for being here and reading or writing this. We're fascinated or drawn in by the character he is. For better or for worse, he piqued our interests.

A substantial part of Astarions' story is abuse, sexual, physical as well as mental. As such, I'll be talking about it. Please be aware. Now, let's take a look, shall we?

I'd assume we all agree that ascended isn't the most optimal ending for him. However most commonly I see the reason stated for that being him becoming just like Cazador, a sadistic abuser, or because he's portrait to be dominating, some say its because of the way he treats Tav or breaks up with them for whatever reason.

I'd like to present to you a different option; this is what a codependent relationship looks like, and this analysis aims to explain why I arrived at that conclusion. Why he potentially acts the way he does and how, just with the spawn ending, ascended Astarion is far more complex than people give him credit for. It's the basis of his character after all, isn't it? A pretty half truth that's desperately trying to hide an ugly, tragic one. One, you only get to understand if you look very closely and pay attention to even the most subtle things.

I'm not writing this to rectify his ascended ending, nor do I mean to preach how he's actually a good guy or that he's not that bad.

Let's be clear, he's not a good guy, he's never been and never was, he shifts towards a good direction as a spawn but even then, enjoying murder, even if it's the right people he kills, isn't particularly nice. And that's fine. But ascended doesn't go kicking puppies out of boredom either, if anything ascended Astarion is the less murderous version based on the epilogue. Yet he's continuously displayed as this evil villain that's even worse than Cazador or a poor man that continues to be exploited for his looks but by the player this time. When in reality, he's neither of those things.

He's certainly no good-natured person. His relationship with Tav is most certainly of questionable nature. But he's still Astarion. His personality never shifted by 180°. Whatever happens upon ascension has always been there. It's the same guy you met on the beach. He's simply the other side of the coin. What would happen if he gets enabled in his warped world view. He is the product of what it's like when someone learns that people can never be true equals.

"No man chooses evil because it is evil; he only mistakes it for happiness, the good he seeks."

It's just yet another quote, but one that fits ascended Astarion perfectly. Astarion has spent the majority of his life under a cruel master, one who would abuse his spawn for fun, force them to do the most heinous things as he controlled them like puppets. Someone so powerful, no one could hurt him in over 200 years.

Even before he became Cazador's slave, he was a corrupt magistrate, admitting to embezzlement even in the release version, in EA to far more.

To the Astarion you meet on the beach, power is the only way to live a happy life, a safe life, a fulfilled life. Its the only thing he's ever known.

He does not want to ascend in order to just hurt others. In fact, if you don't romance him, you don't even need to persuade him. Only if he has a partner does he become adamant about ascension. He's not doing it to rule Baldur's Gate. He's doing it in a desperate attempt to protect Tav, care for them, and provide them with happiness. Finally, after 200 years of utter pain, torture, and desperation, he's found something, someone who's worth protecting.

The damsel had finally been saved and even found their own knight. So tell me, if this damsel had the chance to repay their knight, make sure they'd never need to suffer like them. Wouldn't the damsel be an idiot to simply turn down that opportunity without even considering it?

-------------

Before we dive into Tavs and Astarions relationship and his behaviour as an ascended vampire, let's take a look at the person that undoubtedly shaped him more than any other; Cazador Szarr.

The Szarr family once was a wealthy merchant and farmer family residing in Baldur's Gate, owning a large area of land in the Outer City, at least until a rivaling family seems to have razed the entire estate, massacring every last member. Nobody knows how Cazador survived. The only thing we know is that he was paranoid until his last day.

He was a true sadist, torturing his spawns for enjoyment and sending them out to lure back any unfortunate soul they could find, just for them to be used in the ritual of profane ascension sometime down the line. This is the man who enslaved Astarion for 200 years, going as far as locking him away to starve for an entire year for simple disobedience. Possibly even being the instigator behind the Gur attack that would eventually lead to Astarion accepting Cazadors proposal.

EA, as well as Petras' appearance, hints that he has forced the spawn on one another or possibly himself as well. Petras tries to mirror what Astarion would commonly say/do when you meet him for the first time without Astarion around. It seems the younger spawns are made to learn from the older ones. Possibly not only the charming of innocents, but even worse, darker things they'd need for that.

We're talking about a man, that managed to drive Astarion, a guy who was willing to disobey the gods and become an undead just in order to continue living, to the point where he wanted nothing more than to die.

Cazador Szarr was an actual sadistic, narcissistic monster. He's the kind of person who tries to hurt Tav emotionally the first time he meets. He's cruel towards everyone, always threatening people with the power he holds.

----------

Astarion and the relationship

Now, with Cazador out of the way; let's take a look at the relationship, more importantly, how Astarion acts regarding it.

People in a codependent relationship commonly show certain signs/symptoms, the major ones would be:

Lack of self-esteem

Lack of self-image

Lack of boundaries

Refusal to show vulnerability

People pleasing

Reactivity

Dependency

And becoming a caregiver

1. Lack of self-esteem:

In his romance scene in Act 3, you can pass an insight check. If you do, it will reveal that he thinks you're degrading yourself to be with him. I'll talk about the implications of the narrator in the Tav section, but for Astarion himself, the case is quite clear.

He thinks Tav is better than this, too good for him or potentially just here for a quick fling as it plays into their fantasies. This is also one of the reasons he needs Tav to become a spawn or he will leave. One way or another.

He very much needs the reassurance and trust check from Tav to make sure it's not just a fling that Tav will discard and to make sure Tav can't willy-nilly leave him. After all, he puts Tav on a pedestal, thinking they deserve far better than himself and that he himself is a piece of shit. He knows he has his looks, but he's convinced it's the only thing he has. He will also show this once more in case you do break up with him. See point 3 for more details.

Another thing to note is that he doesn't talk about himself as ascended vampire in first person. He's referring to the ascended vampire as though its someone else entirely. He does not truly identify with what he's become. Treating that part of him almost like a different entity.

2. Lack of self-image:

Ignoring the fact that this man has quite literally been missing his own reflection for the last two centuries and just regained it. If you confront him about the lack of powers he will seemingly nervously try to reassure you it's just temporary, he learns new things everyday and it's just a matter of time.

And while he's right about it, he still seems very insecure in his powers. Despite, you know, being the most powerful vampire in the realms, potentially even more powerful than Strahd himself.

Speaking off, Strahd von Zarovich is someone Astarion knows about. The powers he lists that he will learn are all those Strahd has. His acting also falls in line with Strahds, wanting to rule via the shadows and becoming a puppeteer. Overall, it's not impossible to speculate that he sees Strahd as his idol of a powerful vampire and tries to become like him, copying his identity.

After all, even the way these two came to be what they are is similiar; Strahd killed his brother and formed a contract, all in order to gain the affections of his brothers wife, a woman he had loved so very desperately he's still looking for the fragments of her soul.

Astarion, too, killed his kin, formed a contract, and his very motivation; the thing that makes it so hard to persuade him to stray from his path, is the love he felt towards Tav.

Both were nobles, and both were driven by their desperate love and fears.

3. People pleasing and his lack of vulnerability:

This example is best shown if you break up with him, oddly enough.

Three nights after you've broken up, he will want to talk again. And whatever you say, he won't put you down. If anything, he will praise you for not falling for his very obvious lie and traps. Tells you he would've made you miserable and used your love and trust against you. Funnily enough, if you never break up with him, he actually doesn't do any of these things. And even if he tells you in the breakup talk that he would, he's very much acting in that moment.

Not only is he very dramatic again, but there is lots of movement, especially of his hands, depicting and underlining the meaning of his words. He also looks away from Tav often, similar to his concessions in Act 2, or when he gets nervous in general. Even the way he pronounces words is over the top, almost like Act 1 Astarion before being found out.

The magnum opus of his performance, however, is what happens after Tav makes their last choice. You will have the option to select that you never want to see him again after you defeat the brain. Considering how furious ascendant astarion was in the previous breakup talk, you'd expect him to lash out at you, call you names, etc. But he doesn't. He will smile and agree he will vanish after fighting the brain.

The issue lies in his smile however. Just like a lot of other expressions during this talk, it's kinda odd. The corners of his mouth turned upwards but his brows furrowed, it looks kinda like a smirk.

It's similar to an expression you've last seen in Act 1 when he tries to manipulate you, and it seems you're taking the bait. But his eyes aren't narrow like they are in Act 1. When he does it this time, they still appear round. This is a pained smile. It's the same expression you would've seen had you broken your bond in the Act 2 confession.

But why would the mighty, ascended vampire, a man so powerful no one could stand up to him, appear so utterly nervous, avoidant, or hurt? Like he has to perform his very best, lest his life is in danger yet again?

Well, the reason for that is that he is, in fact, trying to manipulate you. Trying his best to convince the both of you that this is for the better. Astarion tries to validate both of you in the fact that this is the right choice. Staying together would've been a disaster. He's a disaster, a horrible person. But that's a half lie yet again, isn't it?

He still cares about Tav, enough to put himself down continuously during the conversation. He will talk about himself like he's a PoS the entire time, while he will compliment Tav. He still cares, potentially even still loves/likes Tav, but he won't admit to it in words. His speech, gestures, and expressions, however, imply that there's still something beneath whatever mask he's put on again. He tries to make everyone involved feel better about this situation, even when he could just ignore it.

4. Dependency:

Astarion depends on Tav, even as an ascended vampire. The most obvious example for that is what he says directly before confronting the brain; he doesn't intend to die, well as long as Tav doesn't.

If you need to, read that sentence again.

The way this can be interpreted is the following; if Tav won't be around, he won't continue to stick either. Or to put it bluntly. If Tav dies, so will he, one way or another.

This is also once again shown if you choose not to romance him but still ascend him, you can now meet him again at Wither's party. He's not nearly as happy as romanced ascended Astarion. Instead, his answers seem hollow, almost practised. He once again looks away often when talking to you, moving a lot. Performing.

He will admit to his halls feeling empty. To himself being lonely. Despite all his powers, he ends up unhappy. Only if you romance him will ascended Astarion be happy.

After all, his very happiness as an ascendant depends on Tav, his saviour, his knight. The one person who believed in him and helped a poor man with nothing to his name. The one person who made all of this possible.

For the entire act of ascending and fulfilling the rite of profane ascension itself, Astarion depends on Tav. Without Tav helping him see, it's literally impossible for him to do it.

All he's become and all he has gained was only possible because of Tav.

5. Lack of boundaries, reactivity, caregiver:

Before the examples, let me explain what exactly this means. People that take on the caregiver part of a codependent RS usually exhibit extreme levels of self sacrifice, they abandon their own code, goals, wishes and morals to please their partner, ignore their own boundaries and rather than being proactive, they will only react to their partner and their needs.

They also want their partner to need them/be dependent on them, sometimes to the extreme where they would rather have their partner living in a bubble with only them. Afted all, it's the only source of their joy and reassurance, as long as they're needed, they're alright. This is sparked by their extreme fear of abandonment.

In some cases, both can turn into the caregiver, being willing to sacrifice a lot and enable their partner. Its the caregiver against the rest of the world, all on behalf and to protect their partner.

With that out of the way, time for the beefiest part, let's go through this by the order of ingame events/map locations.

Astarion and the drow twins

If you ascend him and visit the drows afterwards, he will be happy to join along if you want to give it a try. In fact, he will even revel in it, being the centre point. Just to dissociate. He joins and acts as the might ascendant, but he wasn't ready for any of it yet. The thing here however is; the idea wasn't his. He's just tagging along for Tav. He's simply reacting to what Tav wants.

Minthara Banter

If you have Minthara in your party, you have the chance to witness the following exchange:

Minthara: "Would you ever consider sharing the gift of immortality with me, Astarion?"

Astarion: "I think not. That is for me and my darling to share."

Minthara: "If they have prevented your eyes and fangs from wandering to other necks, it must be a special bond indeed."

He draws a clear line between him and Tav and everyone else. It's himself and his darling versus the world. This is further exemplified by his epilogue conversation. One of his lines goes as follows;

"Together, we are unstoppable. So Heavens help the fool that tries to get in our way."

Once again, it's the two of you against everyone else.

Contract with Harleep

If Astarion notices what happened, he will lament that he may be all powerful, but he still can not truly protect Tav. He is genuinely worried, and if you choose to respond that you think it's gonna get better, he will reply by saying he once thought so too. He tries to comfort Tav, in the ways that he knows, saying that he would not get bored of Tavs "all that."

He tries to be a source of comfort, openly caring for Tav, and even openly appearing vulnerable again despite hardly doing so since he ascended. He understands Tavs pain and tries to help alleviate it.

The ending

After defeating the brain, you have three options. Tell him you want to travel, that you want to rule the gate with him or that you want to break up.

If you choose option 1 or 2, he will gladly go along with you. Whatever you decide on, he will actually do. This means that even if he's been talking about world domination the whole time, even in Act 2, he will simply abandon it if Tav wants to travel. The epilogue will also confirm he actually did do that. He throws his own code, his own ambitions, and his own goals that he's been talking about since you first met him out of the window.

And all of that simply because Tav said so.

In regards to option 3, he won't let Tav. Tav will enjoy this eternal life by his side, and he will make sure of that. This is further exemplified in the epilogue when you ask him about freedom, he replies with the following.

"Oh gods, not this again. I give you wealth, power, pleasure, every decadence that can be afforded to a person. But you'd rather, what, sleep in the dirt again? You're my consort, and you will live the very best life, whether you appreciate it or not."

He puts Tav in a gilded cage and he will not tolerate any attempts of Tav leaving it. He simply can not. But it's not because he's scared of Tav. I mean, cmon. He can turn into a bat, summon legions of undead, turn into a gaseous form and his bite is far more devastating than your own. Heck he couldn't best Cazador alone, how is Tav supposed to best someone infinitely stronger by themselves? All Tav got to show is a puny bite and whatever weaknesses he once had that Tav could've exploited simply don't work on him anymore. Tav is no threat to him.

But Tav is his sole reason of happiness. He's only done these things for Tav and as such he will make damn sure Tav enjoys them.

But the most important thing, despite everything, he doesn't result to compulsion, he never controls Tav. He never abuses Tav. He won't let them leave but he's not cruel either, Tav is still free to mingle with friends, lives a life of luxury. The only thing Tav isn't allowed to do is abandon him.

This is also his chance to live his spawn life vicariously through Tav. Tav never suffers like he did. One might even say, its his desperate attempt of healing from the past, by purposefully being better than his own master ever was to him.

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Tavs Role

Now, let's talk about Tav in all of this. Tav at the very least displays dependency and has the potential to become a caregiver as well, seeing how they'd kill 7000 spawns just for their sweetheart.

Dependency

The dependency on Tavs side comes from Tav being a spawn or a bride (more on that later), but regardless of it, he mentions he can extend his protection.

Seeing how Tav can eat regular foods and doesn't burn at the docs, this seems to be true. Tav quite literally depends on him to be free of the downsides to vampirism.

Even if Tav would be fine with this, he expresses that he wouldn't be. He wants better for Tav, he wants them to have everything they could ever want or need.

After all he needs Tav, his own happiness depends on them. If he cannot be their caregiver he grows miserable, as seen in the non romanced epilogue mentioned earlier. And he will make sure that Tav has nearly everything that they need to attain happiness themselves.

About the romance scene

The narrator will hint that maybe Tav enjoys being degraded, and while that's certainly one option, it's also possible to understand it as a warning.

One you choose to ignore. Its foreshadowing what this will result in.

Another quirk people in a relationship like this have is turning color blind and ignoring all the red flags, instead finding reasons for why they're acting like this (I'm aware of the irony, dw). Tav can do the same here. Disregarding all reason and doing what they think Astarion wants.

After all, it only makes sense doesn't it? Tav loves him, but he's immortal. Tav isn't. What's a bit of degradation if the person you love so deeply can live happily ever after with you in return?

Although I will add, in the grand scheme of things this particular scene does feel kinda weird and out of place. He doesn't quite act like this ever again, not even if he gets mad or breaks up with Tav. The thing that strikes me as most odd is that if you defeat the brain without triggering the scene, he won't even force you to become a spawn and you won't break up. Even if you first select you want to become like him but then reconsider.

If anything this scene feels like a self insert of someone, something that doesn't reoccur ever again. So take it with a grain of salt.

Tavs responsibility

The sole reason he became what he is as an ascended vampire is because of Tav. As stated previously, without Tavs help he couldn't have conducted the rite. It is only because Tav enabled him to do so that he became what he is.

Some may call him Caztarion, but the only reason he became someone they think that deserves this name is because Tav has helped him. Tav was his eyes, Tav allowed him to copy the scars as Cazador screamed in agony, Tav made sure the ritual wasn't interrupted, Tav took his side against Ulma.

Astarion never made the choice by himself. Astarion never performed the ritual by himself. The reason all of this happened is because of Tav.

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Bonus things that influenced my thoughts but I didn't know how to categorise them / Tinfoil hat stuff

Like the title of this section states, these are just lore tidbits, general information, nice to know things that don't necessarily fit one of the previously mentioned points or are unconfirmed.

Dark kiss ritual

In Forgotten Realms there exists a way of creating vampire brides (i will use the term bride but this is not limited to females, any gender may be turned into one). These brides not only have a link to their "spouse", being able to share their feelings between each other, they're also more powerful than regular spawns.

Most importantly, it is not confirmed wether a bride can be compelled or become a lord and it requires the creating vampire to sacrifice some of his own blood, which puts both parties in danger. Last but not least; its far less painful than becoming a spawn the way Astarion himself did.

As this involves giving the target blood before they die, its very possible this is what Astarion has done, seeing how he admits to giving Tav some of his blood and being able to provide his ascended protection to Tav.

Generally this is something vampires don't attempt willy-nilly, not only is it dangerous for them, the bride can also turn irrevocably mad if it fails, in which case the creator usually has to kill the bride themselves. Vampires usually only try this ritual with someone they had strong ties or felt love towards, hence why brides are called this. It binds both people together for eternity.

My pet

Calling someone a pet is a legitimate form of endearment in the northern parts of the UK and other places of the world. Baldur's Gate is pretty british. The more you know.

Astarion expressing his own desire

While he keeps talking about world domination throughout the game, once you actually finish the game he will do whatever you want. The only instance in which he expresses his own, personal desire and won't back down immediately is at Wither's Party. If you ask him if he wants something from the party, he will reply as follows;

"No, everything I want is standing right here."

Illithid Tav

Wether it's ascended or spawn, both don't consider the illithid to be Tav. Ascended astarion especially dislikes this version, after all he potentially just shared everything with them and Tav just threw it away, even the chance of a second life with him was thrown away by Tav, as they willingly gave up on their own soul. Withers may say you're extraordinary, but you didn't know that when you transformed, did you?

Neither of the two Astarions will force themselves to do anything any longer. With one exception:

Ascended will still do anything they can for Tav. But to him, Tav has died. Whatever stands in front of him now is not the person he's loved.

5e / Forgotten Realms lore

Vampires in 5e D&D do not loose their souls. While spawn may retain whatever alignment they had, lords are auto switched to lawful evil.

Lawful evil does not kick puppies for fun, in fact 90% of Baldurs Gates nobility are lawful or neutral evil, pretty much every second NPC you meet in the city is considered to be part of that alignment. Here's what lawful evil looks like:

"A lawful evil character sees a well-ordered system as being necessary to fulfill their own personal wants and needs, using these systems to further their power and influence. Examples of this alignment include tyrants, devils, corrupt officials, undiscriminating mercenary types who have a strict code of conduct, blue dragons, and hobgoblins."

Vampires and feelings of love

No, vampires do not automatically loose all the love they once held. In fact, Strahd is a great example for someone that became a lord and still retained feelings of love for someone.

Outside of Forgotten Realms there is another famous D&D vampire that continued to love their partner even in undeath; Sylvas Briarwood from the Critical Role campaign.

While their feelings may not be healthy and they're amplified by x10 like all their other emotions, they still exist. It is very possible for a vampire to love someone and its even possible for them to stray from the lawful evil alignment, Jander Sunstar is a great example for this, he's another vampire created by Strahd (and as of now stuck in Avernus, so if we get a DLC, maybe someone for Astarion to have a heart to heart with?)

Astarion and cruelty

I often see people claiming that Astarion, especially in Act 1 is cruel, after all he disapproves everytime Tav does something nice and he likes it when you prod a bird to death or something.

But the thing is, he's not cruel. Everything he does, approves or disapproves of has a reason. If anything he's angry, maybe even bitter or grieving, and he can be even more pragmatic than Minthara.

He approves of you prodding the bird because it reveals informations about a danger ahead, the gnolls on high road. Its unfortunate that it dies, but you didn't know it would do that. What you did know is that this bird had more information that you could've needed. Heck this man tries to manipulate you to keep himself save. He will do anything to guarantee his survival and freedom now that he's finally gotten it. One might even say he's desperate to protect it.

And of course he disapproves of simply helping strangers. Astarion was enslaved and cruelly tortured in all sorts of ways for the last 200 years and nobody came to save him. Not even to attempt it. Even his own family never came for him for all he knows. Of course he gets pissed when he finally escapes and notices the world is full of kindness, there's people willing to help strangers with no reward or strings attached. There was simply never someone willing to do that for him. And you know the worst part? He was 39 when he died. By elven terms he wasn't even an adult and even by human standards, he was still young. And then he spend 200 years suffering. This man spend the majority of his life in Cazador's cruel clutches. He never even really got to live, much less remember this tiny drop of life in his ocean of suffering.

This also translates back into his ascended version, at the party he tells you to report any spicy secrets you may find out or he goes to watch the others as a bat. He's back to his pragmatic self, using anything to gain information that the both of you could profit from. Of course he's determined to live his best life with Tav by his side now. After all he can't even really remember living anymore.

Astarions selfishness

Despite supposedly becoming the most selfish version of himself, Astarion never really refers to himself. If you talk to him about the relationship, future or literally anything else, he will in most cases not use I, my, mine. Instead he's always using us, we, ours. It's our enemies that have fallen. Not his.

He very clearly thinks of you as a unit. As something bonded, as one.

"We have a beautiful, bloody future to look forward to, my love. I can't be sure what it holds for us, but I know one thing. This is going to be fun."

Astarion and responsibility and confrontation

Ironically as it is, Astarion hates confronting his past, his actions, his being and his feelings. He hates thinking about his own responsibility. If you first ask him about Cazador, he will become incredibly mad.

And ascended Astarion will continue to avoid doing so. After all, he has an even better reason now.

He's gained it all, but he's not snap happy. As such he pins his happiness on Tav. The one thing he has left now.

Not only is he suffering from his old wounds, he's gained an incredible guilt, sacrificing 7000 people to suffer in the hells for his own happiness, one he didn't quite recieve. Some of whom were good, innocent people once. People he had pittied. All in an act, he once again wasn't fully responsible for. As the choice and the things he needed to go through with it were provided by someone else. Alone he could've never done it. But he alone has to bear the guilt of it. Just like with the Gur children, he's the one held responsible yet again.

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Conclusion

Despite how it looks at first, Astarion never becomes Caztarion. He never follows into his footsteps. If anything, he returns to the place he's been in before, returns to the beach where you once picked him up. But this time there won't be a Tav coming, there's no drive, no anger left. No goals he has left. He has achieved it all. The cycle never breaks, but he never takes Cazadors place in it.

Tav does.

Ascended Astarion, despite being the most powerful person in the realms, can't see himself like that. He does not believe he can survive without Tav. He submits himself to Tav and their whims, he will provide everything he can for them, just so they will stay. Just so he can keep his happiness, this thing worth protecting he's finally gained after all his suffering.

This Astarion has sacrificed himself for his love. Ironically, despite that being the only thing that he keeps from Tav, he's lost his own freedom as well. He's stuck in his own gilded cage, together with Tav, as without them he is convinced he won't ever attain happiness.

He never acts like Cazador, treating Tav cruelly or torturing them for his own pleasure, he provides anything he can for them to never sleep in filth again. He will throw anything he believes in out of the window, just for Tav. Just for his new master.

He never lost his love, but he doomed 7000 souls for it.

And what about Tav? They're left with a mess of a man they once loved. Their choices resulted in him becoming what he is. They have been handed the strings of the puppet that's called the ascended vampire. They've become the very thing they sought to destroy to free their lover. And except for their freedom, Tavs newfound puppet will provide them with anything. Astarion won't let them abandon him or their responsibility. Not after everything.

Their relationship is no healthy one, instead being of codependent nature. Astarion needs Tav and the happiness they provide him, Tav needs Astarion and the freedom from their fate as a vampire that he provides.

Their relationship will never be equal. But Astarion will never be the one holding the strings.

He may be a monster. But he's the monster your choices created.

And do you know the most tragic thing of them all? Astarion does all of this willingly.

He trusted Tavs judgement and yet, its this very person that doomed the two of them. But even despite that, despite knowing what control Tav holds over him, he still sacrifices himself further. Doing anything he can for Tav to live happily by his side. For both of them to still attain happiness together, somehow.

He's the very essence of what elves are. He followed Larethians footsteps. He got betrayed by the person he loved and whom he trusted to do what's best for them. Now his wounds will forever bleed for it, they won't get to heal, he wont get to heal. And just like the god of his kind, from his blood he will create. But not graceful elves, he will raise spawn instead.

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Final words and authors note

Thanks for sticking with me and reading for however long you did. It's greatly appreciated! What started as me trying to understand why his bad ending seemed to appeal to me, somehow turned into a breakdown and analysis of all his actions, with a twist at the end I didn't expect myself. I hope what you read inspired something in you, whatever it may be.

Also shameless plug for the fic I'm writing, yes it's inspired by this analysis, who could've guessed, but I'm far less tragic over there, instead plenty of fluff:

Any feedback is kindly appreciated, for the analysis or my shameless self promotion, but please be kind about it. In the end we all love Astarion and Neil Newbons performance has moved us in one way or another. We shouldn't fight about what's better or worse, right or wrong. Instead simply appreciate what Neil's work and this character have achieved.

Please remember, it doesn't matter what version you prefer, whatever reason you have for preferring one version over another or wether you agree with my thoughts or not. Your opinion is valid, it's your own and no matter what someone says about it, don't feel ashamed because you love what you love and your reasons for doing so.

And if you're still not burned out or tired from reading my ramblings, attached is my personal afterword/authors note, whatever you wanna call it. I'm talking about personal stuff in there, so trigger warnings apply. Anyway thank you for sticking around and reading!