Friends Don’t Lie

Because on the one hand, Snape is NOT her responsibility.  And y’know, the lad is clearly a difficult person to be friends with; he comes from a troubled background, he’s actively bullied by the people she lives with (and he retaliates - perhaps giving himself a reputation), and he socialises with people who despise her for being a Muggleborn.

Lily says, “None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you.”

…and let’s be honest; if Lily met Snape in the first year after they were sorted, they probably wouldn’t have said more than three words to each other.  They met through circumstance, and Lily was drawn to Snape because he could explain the magical world when nobody else was able to do so.  Once they got to Hogwarts, Snape was no longer special - and all of the flaws that were earlier outweighed by his magical ability suddenly returned to the fore.  As a wizard vs a Muggle, he’s interesting; as a wizard pitted against another wizard, he’s full of faults.

…but the bit that slays me is the imbalance.  Because Snape clearly believes that they’re still best friends, even right up to their fifth year.  He’s obviously got no frame of reference - which is a bit heartbreaking - and hasn’t realised that she’s merely placating him, because I think it’s fairly clear from that same passage that she’s moved on from him, and she’s probably thinking, “Why doesn’t he get it?”

Which is absolutely Lily’s prerogative; I’m not criticising her for doing so.

But…I can’t resolve in my mind the fact that she dates his bully.  It’s not a Snape vs James thing, it’s not saying who she can date or who she can’t…but I cannot think of a circumstance where I would date someone who mercilessly bullied my best friend, or even my ex-best friend.

So I see it in two ways.  Either Lily was ignorant of the extent of the bullying - which is possible; she clearly witnessed a bit, perhaps she thought James bullied everyone in a similar fashion and Snape didn’t tell her how bad his particular experiences were.

Or, Lily wasn’t really Snape’s best friend, and wasn’t ever that attached to him.  And then perhaps she retrospectively justifies James’ early behaviour based on what Snape later becomes, fully believing that James has turned a corner (which we know he hasn’t, because he continues bullying Snape) whilst Snape has careered off down a dark path.

“James whirled about: a second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside-down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of greying underpants.

Many people in the small crowd cheered; Sirius, James and Wormtail roared with laughter.

Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, ‘Let him down!’”

So, you see your friend being humiliated like that, and you have to suppress a smile at the sight? Wow, Lily, I’m impressed. Not.

Severus tells her that his parents argue, and we know that he visits the Evans house…but it’s entirely plausible that Lily never steps foot over to his side of Cokeworth and never has to face the reality of what his upbringing means.  

It’s therefore plausible that Lily brushes off the domestic unrest in Severus’ house as being the same as when her parents bickered over the cost of the MOT for their car - because she doesn’t have the frame of reference for it.

It is, of course, also equally plausible that she knew exactly what went on.  But importantly, I think, we don’t know for certain; the text doesn’t tell us enough.

And of course, although I or you may find Lily’s behaviour somewhat distasteful, she has no obligation towards Severus; she does not have to be his friend, and she is within her rights to cut ties with him.  I think it says something interesting about Lily that I personally read her as having emotionally cut her ties much sooner, but she doesn’t make it explicit and public until he does something that warrants and justifies her dropping him.

I think you are right and that Lily doesn’t appear to have been thinking of Severus as her best friend for a while before the Worst Memory. It seems very likely that Lily having met other wizards and witches, Severus isn’t as exciting a friend anymore. The dynamic has shifted too: before, the authority (knowledge of the wizarding world) was with him; at Hogwarts, it’s with her (she is popular, accepted and recognised, whereas he is unpopular and considered a freak - in some ways he is even a misfit in his House). She no longer needs him, whereas he needs her very much.

At the core, they don’t have much in common. I can’t really see them becoming friends without their initial isolation in Cokeworth. I’m not saying “she cast him off because he is no longer useful/exciting”, because I don’t think she’s nasty or manipulative or something. It’s just that at Hogwarts it becomes clear how mismatched they actually are. That is, it becomes clear to her, but never to him.

All of this.

I think she never realised how much Snape must’ve lost to just stick with her. He probably had no other friends because he decided to publicly stick to Lily Evans: muggleborn and Gryffindor.

And Lily does lift a finger against the Marauders, she argues with James about what he’s doing and tells him to stop, right up until Snape calls her “Mudblood” and then she’s done with him because that word confirms all her worst suspicions about what he’s become.

Like Rowling wrote Lily saying Snape hung around with Death Eater, but never showed it in any instance. We only have proof that Snape is as close to Mulciber as Lily is to Marauders: that is they share a house. Everything else is gossip or ‘he said, she said’ with nothing to support in actuall text.

Like Rowling wrote Lily tried to help Severus, but all she did was stood there and bicker with James without even using expelliarus. What we see in the text is Lily wanted to smile at public sexuall assault.

Rowling never wrote that Severus Snape was friends with Dead Eaters or that Lily did more than make herself look good.She could’ve. Before public assault James or Sirius could say ‘X r Y won’t stop us now’ - it would show Severus had any friend other than Lily outside of biased gossips.

More than that, Severus asking about Marauders alludes to him having no more power over Slytherins as Lily has over Marauders. He shows her same sutiatin she talks about, not changes subject.

And I’m talking about James Potter forcing Severus to strip after he immobilised him. Lily wanted to smile at that - and in what sutiation being publicly hurt by people she knows target Severus is funny?

Snape tries to use the Marauders as a comparison but them sneaking out at night is not the same as using Dark Magic, which Lily points out. Then she mentions James Potter saving his life and Snape becomes incoherent with bitterness and dislike. Lily says that she knows James Potter is an arrogant toerag but that’s not the same as Avery and Mulciber and she doesn’t understand how Snape can be friends with them. Snape doesn’t even hear her.

I’m talking about James Potter forcing Severus to strip after he immobilised him.

And as I’ve already stated, Lily wasn’t there by that time, she had stormed off. The impulse to smile happens earlier.

With ther next to them, James Potter suffocates Severus

If you mean when he uses ‘Scourgify’, that is the moment when Lily steps forward and yells at James to leave him alone.

It’s done using cleaning spell, so ew can stop with ‘but only dark magic is evil!’ already.

He did it in front of Lily - to which she came and told him off. Then she saw James Potter suffocate Severus and told him off again. We SEE that her ‘talking’ doesn’t do anything because James attacked Severus AFTER she told him off while she was still there. He’s back to sexuall harrasment right after she walks away (which says even more of her shalow character than anything else).

Her talk does nothing.

She culd have used expelliarmus. I’m not saying attack anyone - just disarm them. To actually stop the situation, not jut jump to partake in it.

Because on the one hand, Snape is NOT her responsibility.  And y’know, the lad is clearly a difficult person to be friends with; he comes from a troubled background, he’s actively bullied by the people she lives with (and he retaliates - perhaps giving himself a reputation), and he socialises with people who despise her for being a Muggleborn.

Lily says, “None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you.”

…and let’s be honest; if Lily met Snape in the first year after they were sorted, they probably wouldn’t have said more than three words to each other.  They met through circumstance, and Lily was drawn to Snape because he could explain the magical world when nobody else was able to do so.  Once they got to Hogwarts, Snape was no longer special - and all of the flaws that were earlier outweighed by his magical ability suddenly returned to the fore.  As a wizard vs a Muggle, he’s interesting; as a wizard pitted against another wizard, he’s full of faults.

…but the bit that slays me is the imbalance.  Because Snape clearly believes that they’re still best friends, even right up to their fifth year.  He’s obviously got no frame of reference - which is a bit heartbreaking - and hasn’t realised that she’s merely placating him, because I think it’s fairly clear from that same passage that she’s moved on from him, and she’s probably thinking, “Why doesn’t he get it?”

Which is absolutely Lily’s prerogative; I’m not criticising her for doing so.

But…I can’t resolve in my mind the fact that she dates his bully.  It’s not a Snape vs James thing, it’s not saying who she can date or who she can’t…but I cannot think of a circumstance where I would date someone who mercilessly bullied my best friend, or even my ex-best friend.

So I see it in two ways.  Either Lily was ignorant of the extent of the bullying - which is possible; she clearly witnessed a bit, perhaps she thought James bullied everyone in a similar fashion and Snape didn’t tell her how bad his particular experiences were.

Or, Lily wasn’t really Snape’s best friend, and wasn’t ever that attached to him.  And then perhaps she retrospectively justifies James’ early behaviour based on what Snape later becomes, fully believing that James has turned a corner (which we know he hasn’t, because he continues bullying Snape) whilst Snape has careered off down a dark path.

“James whirled about: a second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside-down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of greying underpants.

Many people in the small crowd cheered; Sirius, James and Wormtail roared with laughter.

Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, ‘Let him down!’”

So, you see your friend being humiliated like that, and you have to suppress a smile at the sight? Wow, Lily, I’m impressed. Not.

Because on the one hand, Snape is NOT her responsibility.  And y’know, the lad is clearly a difficult person to be friends with; he comes from a troubled background, he’s actively bullied by the people she lives with (and he retaliates - perhaps giving himself a reputation), and he socialises with people who despise her for being a Muggleborn.

Lily says, “None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you.”

…and let’s be honest; if Lily met Snape in the first year after they were sorted, they probably wouldn’t have said more than three words to each other.  They met through circumstance, and Lily was drawn to Snape because he could explain the magical world when nobody else was able to do so.  Once they got to Hogwarts, Snape was no longer special - and all of the flaws that were earlier outweighed by his magical ability suddenly returned to the fore.  As a wizard vs a Muggle, he’s interesting; as a wizard pitted against another wizard, he’s full of faults.

…but the bit that slays me is the imbalance.  Because Snape clearly believes that they’re still best friends, even right up to their fifth year.  He’s obviously got no frame of reference - which is a bit heartbreaking - and hasn’t realised that she’s merely placating him, because I think it’s fairly clear from that same passage that she’s moved on from him, and she’s probably thinking, “Why doesn’t he get it?”

Which is absolutely Lily’s prerogative; I’m not criticising her for doing so.

But…I can’t resolve in my mind the fact that she dates his bully.  It’s not a Snape vs James thing, it’s not saying who she can date or who she can’t…but I cannot think of a circumstance where I would date someone who mercilessly bullied my best friend, or even my ex-best friend.

So I see it in two ways.  Either Lily was ignorant of the extent of the bullying - which is possible; she clearly witnessed a bit, perhaps she thought James bullied everyone in a similar fashion and Snape didn’t tell her how bad his particular experiences were.

Or, Lily wasn’t really Snape’s best friend, and wasn’t ever that attached to him.  And then perhaps she retrospectively justifies James’ early behaviour based on what Snape later becomes, fully believing that James has turned a corner (which we know he hasn’t, because he continues bullying Snape) whilst Snape has careered off down a dark path.

Thins that are wrong and don’t even consider

James still bullied after they started datingg.

James tried to blackmailed Lily into dating him

James threaten to hex Lily if she didn’t go out with him

Rowling even said that he didn’t take no for an answer

Severus stopped talking to Lil when she asked him to

Mudblood isn’t a racial slur

- didn’t care when Serverus called those other kids mudblood, but stopped talking to him the moment he called her one [and remember how Snape left her alone, unlike James who couldn’t take no for a fucking answer].

- was more angry at Severus calling her a mudblood once than she ever was at James hexing people because he could, as well as threatening to hex her and bully her friend if she didn’t date him.

- Severus was cleary angry, hurt and humiliated when he said that. It’s disgusting how he is somehow worse than Lily in this scene, because Lily didn’t do jackshit to help him while used that spell on him.

- was almost laughing while Snape was getting bullied. Harry actually says that Lily was looking as though she was trying not to smile. What kind of “best friend” does that?

- James never stopped bullying Snape, and Lily never bothered to find out if he kept his promise.

Dan: Oh, in the films? Oh, I think Luna, probably, by the end, I think Luna Lovegood, definitely. Ultimately in this one it’s probably going to be Cho Chang, but um, in the fifth book, we all know that goes horribly wrong, so you know, I think ultimately Luna Lovegood would be my prediction.

Interviewer: If you had to choose between Hermione, Ginny, Luna, and Cho Chang, for you, who is the best couple for Harry?

Dan: Um, I would say Luna.

Interviewer: Luna?

I feel you, man.  I didn’t really consider Neal’s age while watching “Tallahassee” because I found it completely irrelevant.  It wasn’t a part of the story.  Whether he was older or younger or her age, it doesn’t make the slightest bit of difference.  It doesn’t affect or negate their dynamic at all.

The thing is, I’m not the best person to cry “sexual assault!” for age gap relationships, because I very firmly believe it’s all dependent on context and situation.  My own parents are twelve years apart, C.S. Lewis and his wife were seventeen years apart, and I have the distinct feeling that whoever I end up with, will probably be older than me.  (Most of the guys I’ve dated have been significantly older than me–and this was true in high school as well)  I don’t think their age affected my choice much.  

It’s something that’s been used by people against several of my ships. People toss it Bethyl, at Jeff/Annie, at Swanfire (which isn’t even a confirmed age difference). And they don’t bother to actually look at canon and examine the relationship as it’s framed and presented. They just say “well, there’s an age difference, so it’s gross and you’re gross if you ship it.”  No, these are two consenting adults who have a complex relationship, all of which are very different because everyone and every relationship is different, and it’s pretty insulting to act like you know what’s good or best for someone you’ve never met just because you don’t like age differences. Which is exactly what the “age difference = gross” argument does. It strips away the beautiful complexities that make people human, that make everyone so different and instead places them into a group based on shallow generalities. People will cry about these men violating these women’s agency, but when you ignore everything that makes a person unique and complex so you can put them in a category and declare something “wrong” for them, that’s exactly what you’re doing.

I have multiple friends who are in relationships with big age differences. One of my friends started dating a man who was 10 years older than she was when was 18, and they’ve now been married for years and have two kids. Their relationship is so healthy, so happy, and their beautiful children are healthy and happy. 

I’ve seen far more relationships with no age difference be fucked up and fall apart than relationships with an age difference. Because what it always comes down to is the people in the relationship, who they are, what they’re like, how they can function in relationships, regardless of age. Can age sometimes contribute to immaturity and a lack of life experience that might make a relationship not work? Of course. But it’s not something that can just be assumed about every relationship. And it’s really insulting and hurtful to couples in the world who do have an age difference in their relationship who have healthy, happy, wonderful relationships to tell them that their relationship is wrong and can’t possibly be healthy.