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i have so enjoyed and appreciated your asks on dominance/submission (neck vs wrist biting, loumand vs loustat) i was wondering whether you had any thoughts on the brat lestat x brat tamer louis dynamic that seems to be growing in popularity among the fandom. i hope this is okay to ask, i’m wondering because a lot of people seem to expect this is what we’ll be seeing in s3 with lestat behaving so uncontrollably and trying to get louis’ attention.
Thank you! ☺️💖
Tbh I had to google what brat tamer meant lol but I've def seen the phrase 'brat tamer Louis' around, so I believe you when you say it's popular! After looking it up I do think it's one of those kinks that gets popular because people find it hot/appealing and not because it has any basis in the canon, because if you look at how loustat interact in the show, there isn't anything to suggest 'brat tamer Louis' in their dynamic (if anything 'brat tamer Lestat' would be closer to their canon dynamic? But I'll get to that)
(My understanding is that 'brat' in the bdsm context is 'someone who enjoys provoking their dom with the goal of being made to behave' and 'brat tamer' is 'someone who enjoys administering discipline and making their sub behave'; so that's what I'm basing my analysis on, sorry if I'm missing something with that!)
My issue with 'brat Lestat/brat tamer Louis' is that it is predicated on two things, both of which I disagree with:
Lestat enjoys being told what to do (because even though a brat likes to disobey, they do so with the expectation/desire for being corrected/having obedience enforced)
Louis has the power in their relationship to 'tame' Lestat/correct his bad behavior
For the first point, Lestat has been shown to be incredibly resistant to anyone giving him orders. He does not like being told what to do, and the show says this outright (using the word 'brat' to denote Lestat as someone who refuses to behave, not someone who secretly wants to be made to be behave as a bdsm brat would)
This in the context of Lestat's cheating with Antoinette after he made a big show of 'killing her' in accordance with an order from Claudia.
Interesting to note that in the scene where Louis/Claudia give Lestat the rules for reentering the household, Louis never tells Lestat to kill Antoinette, only Claudia does - and Lestat's comment to Louis implies Lestat views this as a request from Claudia specifically, and that he sees it as ridiculous that she would assume the authority to do so.
Then when Lestat 'kills' Antoinette, he delivers the newspaper and the souvenir of Antoinette's finger to Claudia, and says nothing to Louis about it.
His 'acting out' in this context is really more of a rebellion against Claudia's wishes than Louis's, more indicative of Lestat's unwillingness to obey her authority, rather than an expression of wanting Louis to come and make him behave - after all, Louis is not the one whose word Lestat is disobeying (and I doubt anyone thinks Lestat wants Claudia to come 'tame' him lol).
The episode is principally a power struggle between Lestat and Claudia and Louis is the one caught in the middle, not someone in a position of dominance over either of them, but the rope in their tug-of-war being pulled on from both sides. When Lestat visits Antoinette, it's to complain about Claudia, and he has to be reminded by her that 'it is both of them' because he sees the main issue as Claudia having too much influence.
Despite Lestat mainly balking at Claudia's presumption of authority over him, he does lump Louis in with Claudia as people it would be ridiculous for him to take orders from. The second he is let back into the house, he treats all attempts to control his behavior with derision, including Louis's extremely mild request that Lestat not lie to them.
He refers to their new paradigm as "the lambs herding the beauceron" (beauceron being a type of French sheepdog) aka against the natural order of things. Lestat sees Louis and Claudia as his lessers, not his equals, and them giving him rules to follow is tantamount to a dog being ordered around the smaller, weaker, dumber things its duty is to control, guide, and protect.
(Which is the general structure of the household Lestat has established, and the one Claudia is trying to overturn: children-father, students-teacher, fledglings-maker)
Okay, so to my second point: Louis hasn't displayed any capacity to 'tame' Lestat or correct his behavior through dominance the way a 'brat tamer' would.
When Louis and Claudia are successful in influencing Lestat, it isn't through giving orders (because as we see at the end of 106, that doesn't work with him) but through use of 'soft power': suggestion, flattery, charm, deference. We see in 107 how Claudia works to stoke Lestat's ego, make him think the ball was his idea (then adding the twist of making Lestat believe he has the upper hand in learning of her plotting, knowing his hubris will let the game play out under the assumption he's already won only to flip it on him at the last second); but since we're talking about loustat specifically I'll focus on Louis's approach to influencing Lestat.
When Louis does attempt to ouright tell Lestat what to do, Lestat is rarely receptive to it. Lestat will typically respond by being dismissive or yelling Louis back into submission.
The only times Louis can get Lestat to do what he wants is through coaxing/charm/pouting=a soft power approach.
Even in Louis's most distraught state, during Claudia's turning, he knows the way to win Lestat over is this softer approach, begging or making promises of affection rather than making demands (not "do this or else, I'll leave if you don't" but "I'll stay if you will")
Louis getting his way with Lestat through dominance (the way a 'brat tamer' would) isn't something we see in the show.
(Even what people tend to look at as Louis's 'most dominant' moment over Lestat, in 106 when he throws Lestat around Antoinette's apartment and they have sex, Louis is actually obeying Lestat and giving him what he's been asking for, another chance. Lestat sends Louis a song telling him to "Come to Me" and Louis does just that, swims the Mississippi to find Lestat and brings him back into the house 🙂↕️ no 'taming' is happening here, Lestat is being rewarded for his bad behavior lol)
By contrast, a foundational element to loustat's relationship is Lestat telling Louis what to do, as a mentor, maker, father etc, AND Louis makes it a point to say that Lestat likes when Louis puts up a fight; for him it's a fun bit of push-pull that makes Louis a challenging pupil: if anything, Lestat is the one who displays the 'brat tamer' tendencies in that relationship, openly enjoying the challenge Louis gives him as Lestat strives to make him obey.
Lestat telling Louis he will "break him" of behavior he sees as unsuitable is a fittingly forceful sentiment consistent with a desire to 'tame' Louis into compliance.
So if Lestat doesn't like to receive orders, and Louis has a disinclination towards dominance (as I yapped about in this post you referenced), I don't see a 'brat tamer Louis' dynamic being appealing to either of them! While Lestat does 'act out for attention' from Louis, wanting to be 'tamed' or 'put in line' is not a part of the attention he seeks.
I have no idea what season 3 will bring, but if something like 'brat tamer Louis' were to come about, it would be a purposeful inversion of everything the show has established so far, and I think it will be important to view it through that lens.
Thank you for the ask! 😊 This was interesting to think about.
Ugh I just read such a good post about Louis misogyny, even though it was about book Louis but it matches enough if I’m being honest
ooh, I'd be very interested to read that.
I think it's really interesting talking about book louis and show louis because they are different in a lot of ways due to the way rolin and team fleshed louis out and had his acceptance of vampirism soooo much earlier than book louis so they can have him be active as we move forward, but their core is the same, it's still louis, and it - again - is such a great show of this show's beauty
right now, I'm seeing this argument that lestat was the only parent teaching claudia anything useful, doing anything useful for her. hunting and killing? lestat. chess? lestat. piano? lestat. buying her coffin and her clothes? lestat. etc. etc.
and I don't disagree that lestat was the one teaching her a lot of those hard skills. he does, we see it, it's not something to deny or debate.
the problem is the dismissal of louis being a parent to her and having his own role in her raising, a role that was predominantly emotionally based - soft skills - which are, in general, maternal
claudia sleeps in louis' coffin, akin to a baby sleeping with mom and sleeping on mom, he is claudia's safe space and the way safety cannot be overlooked in a child's development is insane. then we have louis and claudia on the boat; claudia asks him about love, they talk about something so serious and real and it's something claudia trusts him enough to ask about and he is open with her about it. when claudia kills charlie, louis is the one first with her, rubbing her back, telling her it's going to be okay. and when the events of 105 happen, when she leaves first, he's the one having to push down his own hurt at lestat's infidelity again to go talk to her. and she still leaves, but she comes back /for him/, there is an undeniable emotional connection with louis and claudia that is built on comfort and a level of openness (and so much of this relationship is destroyed when he does, in almost every way, choose lestat over her when he refuses to burn lestat). louis and claudia are constantly having emotional and personal talks and, for some time, that's so good for her.
and so to say that lestat was the only one doing anything useful for her is so insanely rooted in misogyny, this dismissal of soft skills, this building up of hard skills which are much more paternal in nature, like !!! they both played important roles in her raising and both did good and useful things for her. but - as many such cases go - the maternal role is overlooked and the maternal failures are often seen in a much worse light because of the standards mothers and fathers are held to are so different
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conclave is so good it's like. what if you were catholic and suicidal and suddenly you became important at work but all your coworkers suck and hate you and then a beautiful angel shows up and there's also a guy there vaping all the time. cardinal lawrence should have started biting people.
Did this for an ao3 exchange, and here is the gift's summary:
Claudia comes home after visiting their blossoming graveyard while Madeleine gets ready for a date night. Besides the flowers Claudia brought to replace their wilting pot, she also came across a shiny surprise gift.
i think in the end of it people often fail to recognize that louis was as insecure in his relationship with lestat as lestat was in relationship with him. "aren't i enough?", "you should throw me into incinerator and make another one", "when he wouldn't look at me kindly". ultimately, they needed reassurances in different things, lestat needed words and affections, but louis needed actions and understanding. louis had less control in relationship, he was much younger and less experienced, and i think there was that subconscious fear/insecurity in him that lestat would grow tired of him and replace him.
lestat probably said many loving words, but most of the good things louis remember about lestat were tied to him actually doing something nice, supporting him, being on his side. because lestat said sweet words to all his lovers and louis saw it first-hand with antoinette and probably some others. lestat was cheating on him usually with white women and it was a big part of it too, it only added to that insecurity. the fact that louis fully believed that lestat wanted revenge, wanted him dead and suffering in paris are clear signs that lestat failed proving his love just as much as louis did.
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the issue with a lot of those who call themselves lesdaughter fans is evident in the chosen portmanteau. it’s so entirely about lestat and lestat’s personhood rather than being equally about lestat and claudia. claudia, rather than having her own viewpoint and inferiority, is positioned solely in relation to how she belongs to lestat, to her relationship to lestat, rather than their relationship with each other. it becomes about validating lestat’s love for her at the expense of claudia’s feelings and the extent of the abuse he put claudia through. that’s how the idea that lestat only made her watch charlie burn out of tough love and bc he loved her /too/ much becomes a fanon that’s taken for granted, rather than what’s shown on screen, which is that whatever inner feelings or guilt or shame he has after the fact doesn’t change that he chose to make his daughter miserable and that he used his position as the most materially powerful person both within and outside of their home to abuse her, and so focusing on how tough it must’ve been for him to abuse his child is abuse apologia and at best, demonstrates a lack of understanding how power and abuse work.
of course he had feelings about it; bad parents are still people. but not every bad parent tried their hardest/best and just happened to fall short. some parents just suck, and culturally this is often (not only, but often) the father, the patriarch, who takes his position as godhead of the family to act with impunity not in his children’s best interests, and sometimes not even in his best interests, but in whatever demonstrates how absolute his power is. it’s ridiculous to claim that lestat just wanted to toughen claudia up out of love so that she’d navigate a tough life better when he went berserk at the possibility of louis committing suicide and murdered two priests (important figures in the community, something he later scolds louis for), or when the possibility of louis leaving—not even dying, but just leaving!—sends him into a violent abusive rage. but we’re meant to believe that he forced her to watch charlie’s body disintegrate out of love? why is his grief more important than hers?
it is both possible that lestat loved claudia and that he was unbelievably cruel to her. that he loved her and grieved her does not soften his cruelty when she was alive, when she trusted him, when she also loved him and he took advantage of that love to prey on her biggest vulnerability (which is also his biggest vulnerability, curious enough), mock her traumas (that he also had! so it’s not as if he didn’t understand how cruel it was), and then he doesn’t apologize to her during the trial and he saves louis only (even though he’s still fucked up about how his parents treated him centuries later). whatever one might think of what he would’ve done if he could’ve or his regret after the fact, all claudia knew when she was alive is that her father, the person she once thought understood her best, treated her like scum, made her feel like a slave, entrapped her in misery so potent that she had to kill him to escape, and then he stands there and watches her die. the reason why his grief is so potent and unmanageable for him for all those decades is precisely because he knows how absolutely he failed her. lestat didn’t spend the past century being gaslit and having his memories removed, he remembered every moment that he did the worst possible thing he could’ve done, and that no matter how sad it makes him, no matter how much he cries after the fact, he failed her. when you center claudia’s life instead of treating her like a foregone ghost, instead of acting as if she only existed in order for lestat to later mourn her and for lestat to grow from it, that’s when analyzing their relationship becomes full and rich. it’s not just that lestat sees claudia look at him at the end, but that claudia turns to him at the end—at the very last moment, she was a subjective person despite how external factors tried to refuse her subjectivity—her and lestat are two sides of the same coin, both in resilience and willpower and strength; the only difference is that she was a Black woman in a teen girl’s body and he was a white man, and so society punished her for what it rewarded him. when we do the same, define her solely in relation to the white father who failed her and was given the chances she wasn’t, it is another sort of murder I think. sure the tragedy is there was love, but for lestat, that tragedy was self inflicted. if it’s true that he warned that she would suffer, all that really tells us is that he made sure of it. like most fathers
IWTV is sooo good at showing you things instead of telling you. The lack of intimacy in private between Armand & Louis is just so fucking loud when you look at the intimacy between Loustat even towards the end of their relationship.
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