viragoposting

Making a seperate post so nobody in specific feels called out. mainly responding to comments made by @secretscents @bellboutique @viscasi and @picturedprincess . So I really apologize to ya'll because I did have a conversation about this that got too overwehlming at first to keep my askbox going.

Our community is expanding. I'm aware a few of you have taken onto twitter and found some Virago and Mollis over there and I find your pages really heartwarming! I'm really glad you all still take the time of day to advocate, make art, and even teach me stuff along the way.

All that said...I owe you all a greater explanation about GNC4GNC relations in the community.

There's been some talk about (same gender) GNC4GNC relations over the months. Which is no suprise since this is the part I've been reluctant to answer directly before the large post. As such, there's been some confusion. I apologize for this.

The Virago and Mollis labels have always been for GNC people as its center. It operates off of principles of GNC4GNC, and people of the same allinity. Although it's inclusion may have expanded or up to others' interperetation, the focus has always been of GNC liberation and attraction. Yet, the inclusion of GNC4GNC gay relationships have been...iffy.

Some of you may be asking me why this wasn't clarified directly earlier. Sorry, that indirectness I apologize for. Here are some motivating factors:

My attraction alongside my identity wasn't entirely understood within the queer mythos growing up. Like many,I grew up understanding that bisexual masculines don't exist and end up feminine because of their attraction to GC men. Even though it didn't exactly apply to my hetgnc attraction, the societal pressure to conform to femininity also impacted my confidence to accept my attraction to GNC men and other GNC women. The internalized fear of people like myself told me to stick with feminine women, or at the very least, masculine men. This may be common to experience with other GNC bisexual women and men who's experiences tend to be challenged. GNCphobia doesn't only impact dating GNC people of a differing gender, it's also dating others just like you.

As I was asked about this experience relating to Virago, I hesitated giving a confident answer because of this baggage. I blamed myself for neglecting the other part of my bisexuality. I understood how much it would soothe people just like me to find a community who loves them just like I had with you all. As much as I felt I could increase that love, the fear that I wouldn't be fully accepted by a community i've seen grow made me fearful. So my answers...reflected that internal battle.

I told myself I had to be brave and think of the positive sides...so I acted a little rashly before at least propping up the idea formally to you guys like usual. Well, I did do that, but in hindsight, I feel like it should have been a bigger deal than a dozen direct messages. I also asked bisexuals mainly. So my pop-up announcement ended up being when I said the presence of GNC4GNC was something we were going to impliment for the sake of unity for GNC experiences. Which is still true. But Since I've recieved not-so-positive feedback, I quickly removed it because my fear had manifested right before my eyes.

Since then, my inbox was full of questions regarding it, that triggered my insecurities. Through facing it directly, I've moved past it as I saw I wasn't alone.

Wanna know what's the most ironic thing of all? I remember what I said about coming together for what we have in common

I know, I know. A real tearjerk, aren't I? But I think that it matters.

So, I want to be clear this time.

My Stance:

I support GNC4GNC inclusion within the label because it's purpose was to support and give language and community to GNC people and our sexuality. I believe it aligns with the full sexuality of the bisexuals who use this label as well. HetGNC people are of the same feather and is no less queer than GNC4GNC gay relationships.

BUT.

It's necessary to specify the struggle mono hetgnc bisexual gnc people feel when our community is in infancy. They have nothing to fall back on.

If we're going to agree include it in the label, it is on the condition we create terminology that makes us all stronger together.

Out of respect to all our struggles, I also ask if we focus on gay GNC4GNC relationships to be included on the basis if they're only attracted to those of the same shared gender AND allinity. This is how we focus on unity.

But again, I am focusing on the bisexuals here. It's extremely important as a community that if we include bisexuals, we encompass all of our sexuality, not just hetgnc. We're bi. That means we like mulitple genders and have multiple experiences. This is our existence.

That is the only limiting factor that stopped us from it's inclusion. It could either stunt its growth, or immensely create significant solidarity and prosperity for the hetgnc community. Let's all shoot for the latter.

"But Anibelle, I'm still worried..."

I'd figured as much for some of us. Unlike the parts of it now, when drafting the label it wasn't fully included in there. If you're worried about me using including it here despite disagreement, don't fret. I'll still be removing it from the carrd for now. Although I want to see if it's possible, I want to ensure the stablilty of the community we already have. This post was just me talking about my viewpoint as a bisexual Virago who relates to the people going: "This is me, but I'm not straight or bi!"

Which, we relate to as bisexuals cause we're gay too (non-bi people forget this for some reason)

It's entirely correct to frame Virago and Mollis as both sexualities and identities that don't rely on one another to operate. Virago doesn't always go with Mollis etc. I've also been clear that nonbinary people use this label. It's not entirely focused on Role Reversal, or heterosexual gender nonconformity on it's own. A better way to explain how we use it now is by how it collects a certain pieces of gender nonconformity and allows it to be pieced back together in a multitude of different ways based on utility.

My concern with including newer people is not about how it fits into the mechanics of the label, but the negative pushback other communities may have when discovering the existence of this one.

I truly empahtize with our reluctance in this matter, however. It's easier to include, say, a GNC attracted feminine woman because they share the same struggle of sexuality. It's a little harder to feel safer when the newer groups of people have access to an established community with an ability to survive without being fundementally misunderstood.

Hopefully we'd be able to talk about this openly and come to a solution we feel would make all of us comfortable.

I really hope we're getting the point across that we're NOT supporting BiGNC Vs Hetgnc or GayGNC vs HetGNc etc.

Recipient would also be -> Recipie(nt) the ‘e’ is silent (ex: he is a recipie fem4masc trans mollis)

Pursuant would also be -> Pursu(ant) (ex: though there are pursu men out there, there are also pursu women as well!)

I think the terms are solid but I think it would be really helpful to asks for examples from pursu **and/or recipie partners of what a pursu partner would want from their recipie partner and vice versa (or rather examples of how a recipient and/or pursuant would show up in their relationships instead? That sounds better lol) so it’s more detailed of what these terms can/does represent if that makes sense!

Because like yeah there’ll be those who define these as passive/feminine/forward/masculine roles if they wish to but for others if you bullet point the examples of what the terms represents will help give space to other to just describe/realize how they authentically may want to/wish to/have shown up in their own relationship(s) with the one(s) they’re compatible with without necessarily using terms they may not wish to use for themselves if that makes sense! So yeah that’s my feedback, hopefully it makes sense and I hope I’m not stepping on toes🙏🏾🙏🏾😭

** I was thinking excha for those who switch between or is a mixture of being both pursuant and recipient. It’s short for exchange but idk what’s YOUR feedback on this :,)

- this is @/j-y-ay btw👋🏾👋🏾

I see no issue with shortened forms. I think what you've suggested works well :D!!

You actually touched on one of the things I was worried about when I wrote the explanations. I didn't want pursuant + recipient to be loaded with the same baggage masculine + feminine and active + passive are but it was difficult to write a definition without acknowledging that those are where pursu and recipie have their roots.

I would love to hear more from pursus and recipies about how they'd show up in their relationships! I was hoping that by having some unique terminology, I could open the door for us to color our words with lived experience.

Adjective form: Lairic (Lie-rick)

Athean (Aye-thee-an) - Used for ViragoxVirago or masc woman4masc woman. Based off of the greek god Athena, the goddess of war and wisdom.

Background: So I love the HetGNC carrds and they’re great when we have a specific person to send the link to… But, I also know that most people use the LGBTQ+ wiki to find info about new/unfamiliar terminology if no one’s there to show them the carrd, which is going to be most of the time. And, as for the definitions on my blog— I really hate the confusion it’s causing that I coined all of the words just because my pages are the first ones that show up on Google, and I think having wiki articles would help avoid that confusion in the future 😅

So I’m thinking we should add some pages to lgbtqia.wiki. I chatted with Ani about this a while ago but I also wanna make sure I run it by everyone else to make sure the majority feels it’s a good fit. (Of course, if anyone wants to tweak anything down the road, it’s a wiki page so you’re free to do so.)

The page draft:

Viragos are masculine women (and/or woman-aligned individuals) with a strong attraction to feminine men, and/or masculine women whose attraction to men is in some way gender nonconforming/queer. They may be of any sexual orientation with attraction to men, including bisexual and heterosexual.

In some cases, the Virago identity could also apply to women of other allinities (such as feminine, androgynous, etc.), insofar as they experience a significant attraction to feminine men, and that that attraction is in some way gender nonconforming/queer.

Cultural Implications

Virago is a reclaimed label. The original historical use of the term "virago" was celebratory, referring to a woman “of masculine spirit,” or a woman of great strength and courage. However, the word later gained a pejorative meaning and became an insult used towards women deemed “too masculine” or otherwise gender nonconforming in order to shame them for it.

The modern use of Virago is as a label for women with a gender nonconforming sexual orientation and/or gender expression. Its reclamation is an assertion that such a thing is not an insult, but rather an identity worthy of pride.

The reclamation of the Virago label also asserts that even its (relatively) more positive, original use from ancient Rome was not without fault. Particularly, while it was used as an honorary title, that “honor” was defined by the ancient Romans as being necessarily related to men and implied superiority over femininity and women; thus, the modern revision and reclamation of the Virago label asserts instead that while masculinity in women is honorable and worthy of pride, that pride should never come at the expense of others or superiority over them.

Furthermore, the Virago label does not use the ancient Roman definition of “masculinity”; rather, it recognizes masculinity as culturally and personally varying, allowing for “masculinity” to be defined by the individual themself based on the experiences relevant to them and their culture.

Crucially, this identity does NOT exist in opposition to transgender identities. Rather, the Virago community asserts that transgender identities and gender nonconforming identities BOTH exist, and that they are not in existential opposition to each other (for example, the Virago label does NOT consider “transgender man” and “masculine woman” to be interchangeable terms, nor “transgender woman” and “feminine man.”)

Traits

A Virago may feel that their own experiences and identity as a woman is fundamentally different from that of other women attracted to men; typically, this is because their masculinity (and/or gender nonconformity) informs their womanhood. Similarly, a Virago may also feel that they experience attraction to men in a way that is fundamentally different from how other women are attracted to men; typically, this is because their masculinity (and/or gender nonconformity) informs the way they experience that attraction. As a result, it is common— though not necessary— for Viragos to also be altersex and/or transmasculine. 

It is common, though not necessary, for Viragos to tend to embody a masculine role within relationships. In other words, a Virago may describe themselves as "the desirer" rather than "the desired," or they may describe the nature of their desire as "leading" rather than "following."

Sources

“Virago” flag and name coined by jaycevictim in 2023.

Virago carrd, by @viragoposting

Account of modern community history by @viscasi

P*nk is a slur. A Cuphobic slur used against black feminine men. If you are not a GNC black man, it is not yours to use.