viragoposting

Recipient would also be -> Recipie(nt) the ‘e’ is silent (ex: he is a recipie fem4masc trans mollis)

Pursuant would also be -> Pursu(ant) (ex: though there are pursu men out there, there are also pursu women as well!)

I think the terms are solid but I think it would be really helpful to asks for examples from pursu **and/or recipie partners of what a pursu partner would want from their recipie partner and vice versa (or rather examples of how a recipient and/or pursuant would show up in their relationships instead? That sounds better lol) so it’s more detailed of what these terms can/does represent if that makes sense!

Because like yeah there’ll be those who define these as passive/feminine/forward/masculine roles if they wish to but for others if you bullet point the examples of what the terms represents will help give space to other to just describe/realize how they authentically may want to/wish to/have shown up in their own relationship(s) with the one(s) they’re compatible with without necessarily using terms they may not wish to use for themselves if that makes sense! So yeah that’s my feedback, hopefully it makes sense and I hope I’m not stepping on toes🙏🏾🙏🏾😭

** I was thinking excha for those who switch between or is a mixture of being both pursuant and recipient. It’s short for exchange but idk what’s YOUR feedback on this :,)

- this is @/j-y-ay btw👋🏾👋🏾

I see no issue with shortened forms. I think what you've suggested works well :D!!

You actually touched on one of the things I was worried about when I wrote the explanations. I didn't want pursuant + recipient to be loaded with the same baggage masculine + feminine and active + passive are but it was difficult to write a definition without acknowledging that those are where pursu and recipie have their roots.

I would love to hear more from pursus and recipies about how they'd show up in their relationships! I was hoping that by having some unique terminology, I could open the door for us to color our words with lived experience.

Adjective form: Lairic (Lie-rick)

Athean (Aye-thee-an) - Used for ViragoxVirago or masc woman4masc woman. Based off of the greek god Athena, the goddess of war and wisdom.

Background: So I love the HetGNC carrds and they’re great when we have a specific person to send the link to… But, I also know that most people use the LGBTQ+ wiki to find info about new/unfamiliar terminology if no one’s there to show them the carrd, which is going to be most of the time. And, as for the definitions on my blog— I really hate the confusion it’s causing that I coined all of the words just because my pages are the first ones that show up on Google, and I think having wiki articles would help avoid that confusion in the future 😅

So I’m thinking we should add some pages to lgbtqia.wiki. I chatted with Ani about this a while ago but I also wanna make sure I run it by everyone else to make sure the majority feels it’s a good fit. (Of course, if anyone wants to tweak anything down the road, it’s a wiki page so you’re free to do so.)

The page draft:

Viragos are masculine women (and/or woman-aligned individuals) with a strong attraction to feminine men, and/or masculine women whose attraction to men is in some way gender nonconforming/queer. They may be of any sexual orientation with attraction to men, including bisexual and heterosexual.

In some cases, the Virago identity could also apply to women of other allinities (such as feminine, androgynous, etc.), insofar as they experience a significant attraction to feminine men, and that that attraction is in some way gender nonconforming/queer.

Cultural Implications

Virago is a reclaimed label. The original historical use of the term "virago" was celebratory, referring to a woman “of masculine spirit,” or a woman of great strength and courage. However, the word later gained a pejorative meaning and became an insult used towards women deemed “too masculine” or otherwise gender nonconforming in order to shame them for it.

The modern use of Virago is as a label for women with a gender nonconforming sexual orientation and/or gender expression. Its reclamation is an assertion that such a thing is not an insult, but rather an identity worthy of pride.

The reclamation of the Virago label also asserts that even its (relatively) more positive, original use from ancient Rome was not without fault. Particularly, while it was used as an honorary title, that “honor” was defined by the ancient Romans as being necessarily related to men and implied superiority over femininity and women; thus, the modern revision and reclamation of the Virago label asserts instead that while masculinity in women is honorable and worthy of pride, that pride should never come at the expense of others or superiority over them.

Furthermore, the Virago label does not use the ancient Roman definition of “masculinity”; rather, it recognizes masculinity as culturally and personally varying, allowing for “masculinity” to be defined by the individual themself based on the experiences relevant to them and their culture.

Crucially, this identity does NOT exist in opposition to transgender identities. Rather, the Virago community asserts that transgender identities and gender nonconforming identities BOTH exist, and that they are not in existential opposition to each other (for example, the Virago label does NOT consider “transgender man” and “masculine woman” to be interchangeable terms, nor “transgender woman” and “feminine man.”)

Traits

A Virago may feel that their own experiences and identity as a woman is fundamentally different from that of other women attracted to men; typically, this is because their masculinity (and/or gender nonconformity) informs their womanhood. Similarly, a Virago may also feel that they experience attraction to men in a way that is fundamentally different from how other women are attracted to men; typically, this is because their masculinity (and/or gender nonconformity) informs the way they experience that attraction. As a result, it is common— though not necessary— for Viragos to also be altersex and/or transmasculine. 

It is common, though not necessary, for Viragos to tend to embody a masculine role within relationships. In other words, a Virago may describe themselves as "the desirer" rather than "the desired," or they may describe the nature of their desire as "leading" rather than "following."

Sources

“Virago” flag and name coined by jaycevictim in 2023.

Virago carrd, by @viragoposting

Account of modern community history by @viscasi

P*nk is a slur. A Cuphobic slur used against black feminine men. If you are not a GNC black man, it is not yours to use.

Yeah I think I had accidentally added the ‘contradictory labels’ tag on the last reblog since it’s set as like a ‘default’ tag for this blog 😅

I’ll be more careful in the future!

Just to make sure and not to offend anyone;

Would discrimination towards hetgnc people be considered anti subtliden? I would personally consider it towards gnc people as a whole to be (since people consider gnc individuals to be ‘contradictory’) but I just want to make sure!

Hi! I talk about things sometimes, and I'm just slowly getting used to being talked about this way, haha. I think what you're doing here is pretty sweet!

Currently, we've been working out specific definitions of our own groups of people, and working outwards to expand greater understanding of GNC people overall. So... not yet.

Discrimination against GNC people so far has been called GNCphobia for ease of communication. Now, we also have Gynarchophobia (masc/gnc women) and Cuphobia (masc/gnc men).

I think the previous anon touched on how many blogs similar to yours attempted to coin terms for communities they spend little time curating/caring for. We have many contenders with definitions that don't match lived experiences or propose decent sociopolitical analysis, Which is why you see us hesitant to adopt a certain way of thinking or external label.

these two things arent the same thing tho

im sorry that acknowledging this issue doesnt help you, that still doesnt mean its no help to others

and anyway, studies have shown that gender nonconforming people are treated differently than trans people, based on their identity. if the same person claims to be a gc trans person or a gnc cis person, queerphobes will go out of their way to misgender them in either direction

if a gc trans person claims to be their real gender, theyre intentionally misgendered as an insult. if a gnc cis person claims to be their agab, theyre intentionally misgendered as an insult. trans gnc people get misgendered regularly by both the lgbt and the gc/cishet communities regardless

its almost like these are two different groups that can overlap. both are treated in shitty ways, and claiming that the discrimination gnc people experience is just misdirected homophobia/transphobia is still denying its existence and protecting it from criticism

to deny gncphobia is also claiming that gnc trans people arent oppressed "because theyre following the gender roles assigned to them at birth", which is ridiculous as well, because a)

- every gnc trans person i know grew up presenting as a gnc cis person (ie tomboys that grew into fem trans men and femboys that grew into butch trans women)

and b)

- even trans gnc people that never changed their presentation still spent most of their life being misgendered

gnc people of all kinds face oppression that is connected to but not the same as transphobia or homophobia. gnc cis people have distinct experiences that gc cis people dont have, and gnc trans people have distinct experiences that passing/gc trans people dont have, and so on. this is not a microlabel, this is a massive issue that effects a wide array of people and shouldnt be discounted or overlooked

Not all trans people are GNC, and we face significant targetting in and out of out community for Gender Non Conformity and being Trans. Check my page if you want a taste of screenshots, asks, and personal experiences backing that up.

Saying "we're all genderfreaks" is vastly simplifying a broader issue GNC Trans people face that GC Trans people do not. It's actual marginalization caused by how people think. What causes people to think this way is lack of knowledge, terminology, or being educated on our specific experiences as being both GNC Trans. To call our lived experience manifested as language "microlabeling" is missing the point of our community being a pillar for GNC people as a class, I exist as a intersection of being both GNC and Trans. Calling all trans persons "GNC" simply for the act of changing their gender disregards my existence as a feminine man who happens to be trans.

We still transiton. We still take horomones. We still need the same rights. Yet, within our communities we have to fight for our respect. Why? We have to fight hard to prove our own existence to people who should understand us. Why? We have to explain the concept of an androgynous person, masculine women, feminine men as GNC, but Trans-GNCs are all of a sudden 'detrans' 'pooners' 'hefabs' Why? Why are we treated so differently when "we're all genderfucks" ?